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On June 25 2013 00:22 JaKaTaK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 19:37 slowbacontron wrote:On June 24 2013 11:33 ZombieDenden wrote:
Guys, Videos are great, but a beginner of this layout who doesn't want to watch videos has such a high barrier to entry that i think you guys missing opportunities to spread your great idea.
Try writing the guide to the layout without video and then using video to add value, rather than relying on videos. I'll back this, it's easier to read text instructions than to load and watch a video, and with text you can go at your own pace. Cool! Thanks for the feedback. I'll try to take another look at the OP and see if I can improve it. If you have any specific ideas or examples of what you think would be better, I would appreciate you sharing :D
Hey Jak, thanks for your continued hard work on TheCore! I can't imagine playing starcraft without it now.
I agree with slowbacon and zombie. If you don't already know what TheCore is, and don't/can't watch a video (maybe you're browsing at work, or you're in the middle of an awesome song that you don't want to pause), it takes a lot of digging through the OP to figure out what it is really all about. Here are a few suggestions:
(1) I remember when I was first looking at TheCore, I started to understand the basic philosophy better once I saw a picture with the new home row, and indications of where the control groups and ability keys go. These are now kind of hidden down in "visual aides." I would update these and put them prominently up near the top, as they succinctly communicate the really key innovation of TheCore. You could also move the "5 stages of the core" and the player survey into a spoiler near the bottom to de-clutter the OP a little bit.
(2) Make the download link more prominent! Big text closer to the top! Whenever I come back to the OP to download a new version, I have to hunt all over again for the download link. Plus, if you get people to download the file, they're more likely to then do some research and actually try it out.
(3) You also have to go all the way to the bottom to find the visualizer and the suggested control groups. These are both really useful when you're starting out, so I would put them up closer to the top. In fact, the whole "Download" section at the bottom of the OP should be near the top, right under your introduction (and maybe one visual aide). I would maybe create a simpler, easier to understand "suggested control groups" document/picture. It takes too much digging to actually figure out what you're supposed to put on different control groups. I know people will do their own thing with CGs to some extent, but knowing that in TRM most people do CC/upgrade buildings on P, Production Facilities on O, main army on ;, etc. is really important (and helps people understand how TheCore is designed to work).
Sorry for wall of text hah. Also, if you want any help with anything I mention above, I'm happy to lend a hand!
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anyone has the orginal theCore TRMM 0.6.3 version?
and where can i find older versions than now?
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@chatogaster
Sent a message to James Madison (creator of TheCore Visualizer).
@Zergies
If your interested, we could use some help testing possible changes to the Hatch/Lair/Hive
Queen = Closest key (J for ZRM)
Select Larva = Same as before (O for ZRM)
Overlord Speed = 3rd Homerow key (I for ZRM)
Drops= next key (K for ZRM)
Burrow = Same as before (H for ZRM)
Remember that we are looking for players to see if this is something they can get used to. It requires that you spam less and be more aware of your larva, otherwise you'll run into issues.
Thanks 
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Jak, i beleive you ment K instead of F for ZRM.
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I fixed it
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On June 28 2013 07:45 chatogaster wrote:
Unless I don't understand the core at all, the visualizer seems very buggy (tried out Zerg layouts, under chrome).
Either icons on keys are incorrect (select larva, some unit keys are attack command icons, etc.) or keys/commands are completely missing (select the hatchery, no button to select larva).
Any hope for a fix?
Hey, I'm the guy behind the visualizer. Thanks for the feedback!
So, yeah, that's actually an undocumented feature in TheCore! Binding AttackWithLarva to a key can really help you out during last-ditch base defense, not to mention all-ins. As for the other thing...
Okay, that's a lie. Larva can't attack, and I've just updated the visualizer to reflect that. Not only that, Select Larva should properly select a Larva, and Morph to X should properly select an Egg. New feature woo!
What's going on here behind the scenes is that the hotkey files themselves don't really contain any information about the commands, so I've had to go in and semi-manually code in which units have which commands and how they all work. Since I'm still pretty new to Starcraft myself, there are probably a lot of those sort of semi-obvious bugs... like attacking larva. Likewise a lot of the icons are just blank, because downloading them individually is a huge hassle.
I realize it's of much less use to people who don't already know the layout if it's got really broken parts. I keep saying this is the weekend I'll really go through it all and make it work, but then I keep getting distracted by my day job and other projects and such. But what I have done just now is add a tab on the bottom which will let you send me feedback straight from the app to my email— so if you or anyone notices anything else missing or working wrong, just give that a whack and I'll fix 'em as they come up.
And, hey, thanks again! Sorry it's not done yet 
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On June 28 2013 08:51 regander wrote:
anyone has the orginal theCore TRMM 0.6.3 version?
and where can i find older versions than now?
You can find the old versions by digging through the GitHub history. We didn't start tagging versions until recently though, so it can be kind of hard to find the version that you want. Luckily, someone has asked about 0.6.3 already.
On May 13 2013 23:01 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 22:28 iMECHuCRY wrote:
possible to download older versions of the core, if so, where? I dont like the 0,7 Version of RRM (mostly because Tab is now on mouse sidebuttons, which sucks)
An my (beloved, ^^) 6.3 version disappeared when i logged into sc2 today :/ The GitHub history isn't the easiest to look through (we weren't tagging versions like we should have been), but you can download 0.6.3 from here: https://github.com/jonnyhweiss/TheCoreConverter/tree/cb0f23c83ff0ef67d938d5264f3a84639afeaa15
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Any modifiers + right-click, except for shift only, are free buttons. Could/have these keys been considered? If they have been, why weren't they included?
On a completely different note, Quick Ping is the smart cast version of Ping Minimap, so why were Ping Minimap chosen over Quick Ping?
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Beedebdoo, thanks for being awesome and breathing some life into this thread. Good to have you on board :D
I'm not sure what you mean by modifers and right-click. Can you elaborate? Are you saying we can bind something to Alt+right click??? If so, that's something to consider for sure. Holy shit... that is most certainly something to consider.
Ping Minimap issues a single ping, whereas people spam the fuck out of quick ping obnoxiously. Its true that quick ping is faster though. What do you think would be best and why?
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I wouldn't want non-spammable key set ups. It's important to me that rolling my fingers across P-O-I makes an overlord, and I definitely don't pause to see if larva exist mid-stream, though I do notice if it didn't work and I'm waiting on larva. Making that start research isn't a change that I would personally want.
It's not that I spam, per se, but that I want the muscle memory of POI to always mean "make an overlord if possible." It should either work or fail, not sometimes produce undesired results, in my opinion.
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@JaK
Thanks! It's a pleasure being here
On June 29 2013 06:38 JaKaTaK wrote:
Can you elaborate? Are you saying we can bind something to Alt+right click?
Indeed, and more. There are 3 reasonable-to-press free keys:
Right-click + Alt (Ctrl).
Right-click + Ctrl.
Right-click + Ctrl + Shift.
Of other free keys there are Right-click + Alt + Shift (exlusive to left handed layout) and Right-click + Alt + Ctrl + Shift, but these are unreasonable to press for obvious reasons.
Right-click + Shift cannot be used since that would conflict with shift-queuing move commands.
A last, but rather important note:
If any modifier + right-click is bound, that modifier renders move command unusable. Example: I bind X to Right-click + Ctrl. Now If I want to issue a move command, it is not possible as long as Ctrl is held down. An exceptoin to this seems to be if X currently does not have any function, like recalling an unbound CG, or recalling warp gates when you have none/don't play Protoss. Next and previous subgroups with only one unit type selected seems to be an exception to the exception, as it does hinder movement (exception-inception, try to say that fast twice!). So, Ideally a move command should not be subsequent to any modifier + right-click, for example Right-click + Ctrl to recall a scout CG could cause a slight jamming in the movement.
On June 29 2013 06:38 JaKaTaK wrote:
Ping Minimap issues a single ping, whereas people spam the fuck out of quick ping obnoxiously. Its true that quick ping is faster though. What do you think would be best and why?
You mean they do it intentionally or instinctivily? (instrinctivily press the button multiple times, to make sure it has been pressed)
If it's instrictivily I don't see it as a problem to double/triple press, since the sound file can only be played once at a time.
If it's intentionally, I first of all blame Blizz for having such a high cap on maxium number of pings on the minimap at any given time. I don't think Quick Ping will augment the bad troll's spamming that much, since you can spam Ping Minimap, while spamming Choose Ping Target almost as fast as just spamming Quick Ping.
On the other hand there are some precision issues with Quick Ping, since you can't confirm your target, but I think it's just about getting used to smart casting pings. Something tells me that if you're smart enough go in and change it, you're smart enough not to spam. If you instinctivily spam, it might even be slower than a single click. I don't have a conclusion to this, and I don't play enough team games to believe that I should have one
Something unrelated to the above:
I'm thinking about tinkering with drag scroll. On TheStaircase, you encourage using camera keys, and not using arrow keys and egde screen movement: "Avoid arrow keys or moving the mouse to the edge of the screen to move"
Is Drag scroll an okay method to move, when it's only a small distance?
@astazha
I did the excact same thing back when I played Zerg, though I never did it for any combat units, like P-O-J for Zerglings. I'd reckon I had spent Larvae pretty fast if I did those combos for every unit. But I didn't which I guess is because Overlords and Drones don't need to be egg-hotkeyed, and that would take time, which is precious in a micro battle. Also, Overlords (and Drones, when you're just replacing losses from morphing buildings) are the only unit(s) you ideally want to start one or two of simultaneously, while the Zergling might be more like P-O-J-J-J-J.. What are your thoughts on this?
EDIT
@Thunderflesh and OP design
+1
Pulling up downloads, visual aides, visualizers and suggested CGs seems like a great idea. The hardest thing for me to learn about the core was the suggested CGs, and, as you've said, they're essential for TheCore to be at its full potential.
Ressources and Getting started seems basically like the same thing, only Getting started is videoes. Since text version of Getting Started has been requested, merging the two seeems to make a lot of sense. Things that makes learning TheCore also seems as things that are good to knew when getting started.
A little note to current implementation of downloads: TheCore Visualizer and TheCore Spreadsheet have their links and explaining text seperated by a new line, TheCore Archive have its link and explaining text seperated only by a space.
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Hi, I think about switching to "thecore".
But where can i find the special hotkey-setup for those who use 1-2 mousebuttons? like ZRL"M"?.
i think these mousebuttons are more efficient than every key on my board...
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On June 29 2013 19:15 RainmakerINT wrote:
Hi, I think about switching to "thecore".
But where can i find the special hotkey-setup for those who use 1-2 mousebuttons? like ZRL"M"?.
i think these mousebuttons are more efficient than every key on my board...
There no longer exists a mouse buttons version of TheCore, instead the thumb buttons are now used for tab forward and tab backward. While it's not recommended that you change this you can manually edit the hotkeys with a few simple changes. Simply move two of the hotkeys for control groups to the mouse (Remember to do all three types of actions, add, set and recall) Then move tab forward / tab back to those control group keys.
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You raise a good point, Jak. I might sometimes attempt to morph a drone or overlord when no larva exist to select, but I don't think I do that for military units, or at least not very often. I'm usually pulling up the larva count and checking my supply to determine if I should make a few overlords before just holding J down for zerglings, and also preparing to control group those eggs.
I'm totally happy with lair/hive morph on the thumb (pressed twice at most in a typical game) and with burrow research being the burrow button. I need to look at the others.
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On June 29 2013 19:15 RainmakerINT wrote:
Hi, I think about switching to "thecore".
Seriously do it. I know it sounds daunting, and it is a big change to get used to, but this is so much better than the standard interface. I didn't realize how awful the old way was until I tried something better. Take a week to just throw out what you know about hotkeys and start from scratch. It's so worth it if you are at all serious about playing to the best of your capability.
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So maybe I should remain free for hatch/lair/hive because of overlords, but we can use the other keys because we will be egg egghotkeying them anyway? So far though i have had no problems.
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i feel happy that using the mouse buttons to tab forward and backward is now mainstream. I found this when i DL the core many months ago and felt it worked wonders for me.
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On June 28 2013 09:43 JaKaTaK wrote:@chatogaster Sent a message to James Madison (creator of TheCore Visualizer). @Zergies If your interested, we could use some help testing possible changes to the Hatch/Lair/Hive Queen = Closest key (J for ZRM) Select Larva = Same as before (O for ZRM) Overlord Speed = 3rd Homerow key (I for ZRM) Drops= next key (K for ZRM) Burrow = Same as before (H for ZRM) Remember that we are looking for players to see if this is something they can get used to. It requires that you spam less and be more aware of your larva, otherwise you'll run into issues. Thanks
I think I'm going to try something similar (ZRM):
Queen = 8 (and spawn creep tumors. I don't know how everyone else feels but U messes me up more often than I would like, particularly because I am going for shift at the same time when spreading creep tumors. Shift-8 just feels better to me than Shift-U)
Select larva = O
OL Speed = J
Drops = K
Burrow = H
Also, and I know this isn't applicable to all layouts, but as ZRM I use "." as an additional for cancel because "]" gives me a little trouble when I'm feeling panicked, which is when the need for it tends to arise.
I'm also consider using some of the right click modifiers for additionals for patrol and hold position. Ctrl+[right click], [left click] to patrol, for example. Alt+[right click] to hold position. Something like that.
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EPT
