EPTOn June 24 2013 06:59 fengshaun wrote:
Anyone know what Finn_ said that he got banned?
Anyone know what Finn_ said that he got banned?
He didn't get banned, it was just a warning.
And I believe he was warned for having no content in his post.
[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 247
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Antylamon
United States1981 Posts
He didn't get banned, it was just a warning. And I believe he was warned for having no content in his post. | ||
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ZombieDenden
Germany15 Posts
Try writing the guide to the layout without video and then using video to add value, rather than relying on videos. | ||
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lpunatic
235 Posts
Played 3 games vs very easy AI so far. I have to say, I'd struggle to be competitive in bronze at this rate, but I'm already getting used to some of the more common commands. It definitely is much more comfortable than standard. | ||
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slowbacontron
United States7722 Posts
On June 24 2013 11:33 ZombieDenden wrote: Guys, Videos are great, but a beginner of this layout who doesn't want to watch videos has such a high barrier to entry that i think you guys missing opportunities to spread your great idea. Try writing the guide to the layout without video and then using video to add value, rather than relying on videos. I'll back this, it's easier to read text instructions than to load and watch a video, and with text you can go at your own pace. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
On June 24 2013 19:37 slowbacontron wrote: I'll back this, it's easier to read text instructions than to load and watch a video, and with text you can go at your own pace. Cool! Thanks for the feedback. I'll try to take another look at the OP and see if I can improve it. If you have any specific ideas or examples of what you think would be better, I would appreciate you sharing :D | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On June 25 2013 00:22 JaKaTaK wrote: Cool! Thanks for the feedback. I'll try to take another look at the OP and see if I can improve it. If you have any specific ideas or examples of what you think would be better, I would appreciate you sharing :D I think having a text version of the "Getting Started" videos would be a good place to start. Even if it's just word for word what you say in the videos, some people prefer reading instructions over listening to/watching them. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
On June 25 2013 00:26 JDub wrote: I think having a text version of the "Getting Started" videos would be a good place to start. Even if it's just word for word what you say in the videos, some people prefer reading instructions over listening to/watching them. Sounds good. Will do  | ||
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VerdeCreed
United States27 Posts
Now I know theCore has amazing optimization and rationale geniously steeped into its DNA, but I feel like I may be missing some of it. Even though I have been following the topic for a long time, I've skimmed many discussions, or wasn't a good enough player to really understand what made some these decisions such a big deal. I swear I remember seeing somewhere that a document was under construction which listed all these optimazitions and included little tips and tricks made possible by theCore that are very difficult with a more standard layout. One such example was mention of a "sick Roach burrow/unburrow micro" which is far more difficult to execute in the regular layout, sadly however; I either missed the answer or the poster never responded. I feel like there are numerous examples of this, especially when it comes to ideas like rolling and order in which keys are hit. Right now I feel good with the layout, but I bet there are some aspects of my micro and control are I am executing out of order, or not optimally. (For example, I got very used to rolling my free cameras from right to left, setting my main hatch to semi-colon and rolling right to left like the older right to left motion when POI were the defaults. I'd love to know the thought process of the change, but evenmoreso what the advantages are of having the home hatch on K.) All that to ask, with whispers of a release version of theCore, how are these advanced tips and tricks of this system going to be explained, and is there any way I can get a sneak peak at some of the ideas this document might explain (you know, for scientific "testing" purposes)? | ||
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Beedebdoo
130 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtFSjIb2ibJTdDJUT19PTmR1TVhhTklQWm5aVFl3YUE#gid=3 Its not very extensive yet. Been working on other things. | ||
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Beedebdoo
130 Posts
I'm only commenting on TRM and ZRM, since PRM and RRM are identical to TRM at the moment. Protoss High Templar TRM: "/" is free and could replace "H". I'm not much of a Protoss player, so I don't know if players shift-queue HT commands, like shift-queueing Feedback on a bunch of 'revelated' Medivacs. If that's the case, keeping "H" seems superior. Archons TRM: Archons are morphed with "'", while Overseers are morphed with "H" (both have same key score). Using "H" and "'" as alternative on both would mean you could double tap (like marines in darkgrid). I can simultaneously press both just as fast as I could press a single, but I don't know if it would be an improvement to other TheCore users. ZRM: Same suggestion as above, but with "/" as alternative key. Nexus ZRM: "/" is free and could replace "H". Cybernetics Core ZRM: "O" is free and could replace "/". I understand that "/" transforms Gateways into Warpgates, but TheCore focuses on efficiency over learnability, and "O" and "/" does not share same key score. Robotics Facility ZRM: Inconsistency towards the Orbital Command, the only other structure with 4 unique commands. One uses "K", the other uses "/". Robotics Bay TRM: Inconsistency, most other structures with 3 unique commands use "J", "I", and "/", instead of "J", "I", and "K". ZRM: "I" is free and could replace "/". Fleet Beacon TRM: "I" is free and could replace "H". ZRM: "O" is free and could replace "K". Terran Raven ZRM: "/" is free and could replace "H". Orbital Command TRM: "/" is free and could replace "H". ZRM: Inconsistency towards the Robotics Facility, the only other structure with 4 unique commands. One uses "K", the other uses "/". Factory Tech Lab TRM: "/" is free and could replace "'". ZRM: "I" is free and could replace "8". Starport Tech Lab TRM: "J" and "K" are free and could replace "H" and "'". ZRM: "J" is free and could replace "8". Ghost Academy TRM: "J", "I", and "/" are free and could replace "H", "'", and ",". ZRM: "J", "O", and "I" and free and could replace "/", "8", and "U". I understand that ","/"U" is the command to launch a nuke on Ghosts, but it's not a very efficient hotkey. Refer to the Cybernetics Core above. Fusion Core TRM: "J" is free and could replace "8". ZRM: "J" is free and could replace "M". Zerg Overlord TRM: Refer to Archons above. ZRM: Refer to Archons above. Using the ring and thumb here instead. Corruptor TRM: Morph Archons were changed from "/" to "'" because "/" is hard to spam. Perhaps apply same change here as proposed to Overlord and Archon above, but with thumb instead of index? I don't know If It's as much a problem here as on the Archon though. ZRM: The middle finger is relatively easy to spam, so It might be little to no problem here. Zergling TRM: Same thing as above, but switching between "I" and "'" seems more efficient than "H" and "'". ZRM: Adding "I" and an alternative to morph enables simultaneous pressing for more banelings in a controlled manner. Hatchery/Lair/Hive TRM: "J", "K" are free and could replace "M" and "U". "H" could be bound to borrow instead of "8" to create consistency with the borrow command, which is also pressed on "H". ZRM: "J", "I" and "K" are free and could replace "8", "M", and "U". Ultralisk Cavern TRM: "J" is free and could be used instead of "I" to create consistentcy with Baneling Nest and Nydus Network. ------------------------------------------ Note about simultaneous pressing: I'm not sure if you, JaK, are considering this direction, because I find that mastering control over keyboard repeat might be just as effective, if not more. But at lower numbers, I stand by that simultaneous pressing is superior given the small delay there is before a repeat. | ||
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Ninjury_J
Canada408 Posts
Thanks for this! The keyscores were not the only thing taken into account when designing the layout: for example one of your suggestions is to use JIK for lair/hive. This makes lots of sense if we went by keyscores alone. The reason these arent used is because they are commads for lings, overlords, and roaches. Because these are made so often, we dont want to allow for the possible error of trying to make units, and having no larva, accidentally getting an upgrade instead. I will go through all the ZRM zerg ideas: "Overlord ZRM: Refer to Archons above. Using the ring and thumb here instead." -I see no reason why not, though the utility isn't so high IMO since overseers are rarely made in mass, and if they are, can't one simply hold the button? "Corruptor ZRM: The middle finger is relatively easy to spam, so It might be little to no problem here." EDIT: Are you talking about broods? In that case I think having a second button can be useful. Come to think of it, we could have all the "morph" functions on the same two keys. (i, /). -Again, can't we hold down O? "Zergling ZRM: Adding "I" and an alternative to morph enables simultaneous pressing for more banelings in a controlled manner." -I don't understand what you mean here. Can you explain please? "Hatchery/Lair/Hive ZRM: "J", "I" and "K" are free and could replace "8", "M", and "U"." -Perhaps we ought to re look at this. When TheCore was first underdevelopment, it was more similar to how you suggested. Users reported that they'd often make mistakes when no larva were present. To play devil's advocate, I can think of some good reasons why you are right. Perhaps we can open up a debate on this? First, When TheCore first came out, people were very unused to the mechanics so maybe they made mistakes for that reason. It is possible that once learned, one does not make these mistakes. Second, These mistakes occur because of spamming. But optimally one would not spam mindlessly and know when larva are available. This is admittedly a weak argument. Third, Two functions are only available at lair tech, so perhaps these could "semi conflict" with ling/ol. Larva are more scarce before lair, which means it should be more difficult to make this kind of mistake later. Fourth, The upgrades cost relatively little, give benefits, and can only be used once. These are probably less risky than the setup currently may suggest. Finally, it is more efficient how you suggest. With the exception of lair/hive (which can be acquired unlimited times and grant almost no additional benefit past the first) everything can be moved up. (Lair/hive is already on a "good" key anyway. /. since it does not conflict with any larva ability). Particularly, queen on J would be rather nice. I'm not convinced yet, but I would love to hear others' arguments on the topic. | ||
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Beedebdoo
130 Posts
EDIT: Are you talking about broods? In that case I think having a second button can be useful. Come to think of it, we could have all the "morph" functions on the same two keys. (i, /). Indeed I am Though I'll have to disagree with them all being on "I" and "/", that would conflict with Feedback on High Templar, and Zerglings can use high up buttons, as seen below. But for Morph to Brood Lord and Morph to Overseer it could be a nice addition.EDIT: On second thought, having "/" as alternative key for any morph might be inefficient, since you generally need to update your control groups right after initiating morphs, which is done with the great help from the thumb. Zergling ZRM: Adding "I" and an alternative to morph enables simultaneous pressing for more banelings in a controlled manner. Oh, sorry, that "and" should have been an as. The idea is having "O" and "I" bound to Morph to Baneling, so you can press both simultaneously. It will generally only be effective when you need just a few banes (image a fierce ZvZ and you need some 6 banes, now you tab three times and it might be a wholly 0.2 seconds faster than briefly holding down "O"). Two functions are only available at lair tech, so perhaps these could "semi conflict" with ling/ol. Larva are more scarce before lair, which means it should be more difficult to make this kind of mistake later. I believe they changed it, only Ventral Sacs require a Lair. The reason these arent used is because they are commads for lings, overlords, and roaches. Because these are made so often, we dont want to allow for the possible error of trying to make units, and having no larva, accidentally getting an upgrade instead. That is pretty smart, I haven't thought about that before. I guess in a battle you don't have time to check for larvae, so instead, you just press the sequence for the unit you want and hope it does something.With an easier cancel button I think it is less of an issue, and generally speaking, you always have atleast a larvea ready to morph late game, so it's an early game thing. Ventral Sacs and Pneumatized Glands are reseached once, so it is more acceptable that they're on lower key scores, but you almost always build some Queens, so I think upping it up a tad would be worth the risk of mispresses. Not sure about the two others. | ||
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perspicaciousinnate
45 Posts
Here are some problems that I've found. If you want to just build tanks, it's hard to click spacebar and get to factories. Sometimes, you hit too many space bars. Other times, you built a fortress so the number is spacebars are different. It slows me down at the masters level. On the other hand, real estate on the keyboard is valuable so making 4 separate keys seems like a waste but I'm coming around to the idea that it's worth it. What does everyone else think? | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
Why are you using spacebar!?!? That is a horribly slow key. | ||
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perspicaciousinnate
45 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
On June 27 2013 01:46 Beedebdoo wrote: I've found several Inconsistencies according to the key score maps in the Archives. I assume for a moment, that the key scores are objectivily correct. Most of the times I will not point at which key what command should be assigned to, but rather which keys are being used in different command cards, and if those keys are optimal according to the key score list. I'm only commenting on TRM and ZRM, since PRM and RRM are identical to TRM at the moment. Protoss High Templar TRM: "/" is free and could replace "H". I'm not much of a Protoss player, so I don't know if players shift-queue HT commands, like shift-queueing Feedback on a bunch of 'revelated' Medivacs. If that's the case, keeping "H" seems superior. Archons TRM: Archons are morphed with "'", while Overseers are morphed with "H" (both have same key score). Using "H" and "'" as alternative on both would mean you could double tap (like marines in darkgrid). I can simultaneously press both just as fast as I could press a single, but I don't know if it would be an improvement to other TheCore users. ZRM: Same suggestion as above, but with "/" as alternative key. Nexus ZRM: "/" is free and could replace "H". Cybernetics Core ZRM: "O" is free and could replace "/". I understand that "/" transforms Gateways into Warpgates, but TheCore focuses on efficiency over learnability, and "O" and "/" does not share same key score. Robotics Facility ZRM: Inconsistency towards the Orbital Command, the only other structure with 4 unique commands. One uses "K", the other uses "/". Robotics Bay TRM: Inconsistency, most other structures with 3 unique commands use "J", "I", and "/", instead of "J", "I", and "K". ZRM: "I" is free and could replace "/". Fleet Beacon TRM: "I" is free and could replace "H". ZRM: "O" is free and could replace "K". Terran Raven ZRM: "/" is free and could replace "H". Orbital Command TRM: "/" is free and could replace "H". ZRM: Inconsistency towards the Robotics Facility, the only other structure with 4 unique commands. One uses "K", the other uses "/". Factory Tech Lab TRM: "/" is free and could replace "'". ZRM: "I" is free and could replace "8". Starport Tech Lab TRM: "J" and "K" are free and could replace "H" and "'". ZRM: "J" is free and could replace "8". Ghost Academy TRM: "J", "I", and "/" are free and could replace "H", "'", and ",". ZRM: "J", "O", and "I" and free and could replace "/", "8", and "U". I understand that ","/"U" is the command to launch a nuke on Ghosts, but it's not a very efficient hotkey. Refer to the Cybernetics Core above. Fusion Core TRM: "J" is free and could replace "8". ZRM: "J" is free and could replace "M". Zerg Overlord TRM: Refer to Archons above. ZRM: Refer to Archons above. Using the ring and thumb here instead. Corruptor TRM: Morph Archons were changed from "/" to "'" because "/" is hard to spam. Perhaps apply same change here as proposed to Overlord and Archon above, but with thumb instead of index? I don't know If It's as much a problem here as on the Archon though. ZRM: The middle finger is relatively easy to spam, so It might be little to no problem here. Zergling TRM: Same thing as above, but switching between "I" and "'" seems more efficient than "H" and "'". ZRM: Adding "I" and an alternative to morph enables simultaneous pressing for more banelings in a controlled manner. Hatchery/Lair/Hive TRM: "J", "K" are free and could replace "M" and "U". "H" could be bound to borrow instead of "8" to create consistency with the borrow command, which is also pressed on "H". ZRM: "J", "I" and "K" are free and could replace "8", "M", and "U". Ultralisk Cavern TRM: "J" is free and could be used instead of "I" to create consistentcy with Baneling Nest and Nydus Network. ------------------------------------------ Note about simultaneous pressing: I'm not sure if you, JaK, are considering this direction, because I find that mastering control over keyboard repeat might be just as effective, if not more. But at lower numbers, I stand by that simultaneous pressing is superior given the small delay there is before a repeat. Thanks for the detailed analysis here's the reasoning: / does not have a key score, really. It is a special key and should only be used in situations where: 1. It is only used as a single press 2. It is never a queue'd command 3. It isn't often followed by a ctrl, shift, or alt This will serve as the reasoning behind most of the inconsistencies you found. However: I believe we have made a mistake with the void ray, colossus, etc. They are pressed multiple times in a row in the case of double+ robo or air toss play. With the exception of the mothership core (you can only make one) / should not be used with units. I will fix this for the next patch. Concerning upgrades: They are matched to their unit/ability key because of the infrequency that they are pressed. In the cases where making a mistake (like getting the wrong upgrade) overshadows the amount of efficiency lost we have made exceptions. Also, ranking the upgrades is almost entirely dependent on the meta-game and basing our decisions on something that volatile would mean changing TheCore every time a new strategy becomes popular. If we stick with the original stats (february 2012) then it would be arbitrary. So instead we choose to link these upgrades to their respective units or abilities in order to prevent mistakes due to nerves etc (this has cost professional players important games in the past). Making alternates for morph in order to speed up mass morphing may or may not be beneficial, but it doesn't hurt to have them in there, so I don't see why we shouldn't give players the option if that is their style. Ninjury will release a post later concerning moving the queen and Hatch/Lair/Hive upgrades: We think this idea is interesting but obviously error prone. We'll be asking players to test it out and give their feedback. Thanks again, let me know if I missed anything. | ||
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Beedebdoo
130 Posts
I had guessed there would be a reason behind not using key scores all the time, but atleast I learned a little something (on half of the upgrades, I had seriously not realized it was because they were tied to their respective unit/ability) so thank you for that ^^I can definitely see reasoning behind the descision on upgrades. But units were raised beyond the meta game by sorting them according to requirements (cost, build time, tech), so it is possible for upgrades too. WIth that said, I do think that matching upgrades according to unit/ability will prove superior for most players. Zergs have most of their upgrades laid out according to key scores, the reason as I see it being that the buildings are either specialized, or the upgrade is general and applies to multiple units. The Ghost Academy, Fusion Core and Templar Archives are the only to non-zerg structures containing upgrades for only a single unit. Then again, cloaking is a shared ability, so having "H" as Personal Cloaking makes a lot of sense. Furthermore "'" for Möebius Reactor lines up with Corvid Reactor. Maybe change Behemoth Reactor to "'" too? It would be an inconsistency, since the two other reactors are bound to their respective unit's hotkey, which just happens to be the same, but it's a consistency towards the two other reactors. Personally I would have picked up on the connection between reactors before picking up on connection between unit and respective reactor, but that's just me. EDIT: You didn't mention the Ultralisk Cavern. I don't know if you have that one in mind, or I'm missing some connection. | ||
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chatogaster
Poland13 Posts
Either icons on keys are incorrect (select larva, some unit keys are attack command icons, etc.) or keys/commands are completely missing (select the hatchery, no button to select larva). Any hope for a fix? | ||
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