|
vs
Hi. I'm a 1500+ Masters Zerg, who also wrote:
This is a comprehensive guide to ZvT - it's all of the standard stuff, on everything!
The Flow of ZvT + Show Spoiler + The flow of ZvT is similar to the flow of ZvP. - Hatch First - Zerg rules out 1 base all-in - Zerg takes third as soon as he can (against a T who expanded), but may have to go 2 base lair macro hatch (eg hellions, banshees) - Zerg defends third, then drones up - Terran takes third while Zerg has map control & takes 4th - Terran pushes while Zerg tries to gain an army advantage before he’s at Zerg’s front door (cutting off reinforcements, delaying for higher tech, etc). - Terran turtles against Hive Tech and tries to win by cost efficiency.
The Basic Build Order + Show Spoiler + Hatch First 2 x Queens, necessary defense ~30 Scout for Expo and Terran's gameplan ~40 3rd Hatch/Macro Hatch ~40+ (Roach Warren if trying to take third vs reactor/mass hellion or do roach/bane aggression) ~45 4 x Gas Total (if took quick third, take just 2, then 2 more ~55+) Evo, Baneling Nest/2nd Evo 50+ Lair (Delay if took Third), some units ~60+ 4th Hatch +1 Carapace, Tech Drone up Third based on T's aggressiveness (none for marine/marauder, completely for mech)
There are basically 2 ways to go with a basic opener, and largely they reflect quicker lair, later third & hive, or later lair, quicker third & hive. I've italicized the choices that generally follow later lair styles. These days we see Zergs go for a quicker third and delay Lair even more (with both muta and infestor styles).
ZvT is a pretty straight-forward match-up - just follow this general build, get your third going, be careful with your tier 2 units, and get Hive in time and you should be good. This match-up is a lot about positioning, harassment, and trying to out-macro the opponent. With solid play, you should come out ahead.
The Opener + Show Spoiler + Hatch First. You should be able to hold any Terran all-in with Hatch first, which is actually safer in terms of defense.
Standard Hatch First timing is 15 Hatch (it's better economically than 14 or 16). You really want to delay pool as long as possible. I find that you can be completely comfortable to go as late as 16 pool. It’s up to you whether you want to push the boundaries against a possible 2 rax with a 17 pool, or just be a bit more comfortable with 15 pool.
If Terran does a block at your natural, just throw down your pool and get your hatch when you can. Don’t attack it with drones unless it’s in the red (maybe pulling 2-3 drones to take a hatch against an SCV obviously about to block because it arrives so early that it's there before you throw down your hatch is okay), but that’s something that will be up to you to do. He will be delayed just as much as you, just don’t overreact.
Hatch First is actually safer - if you go, say, 14/14 vs 2 rax with a few SCVs, Terran can camp your natural with bunkers due to no creep, and an SCV all-in or follow up may be harder to deal with when you can't get up 2 spines by a choke. That, and you will have more larva (queen inject doesn't come in time for 2 rax). No Terran all-in can punish a Hatch First, but they can punish Pool First.
When you get gas, is up to you, but ‘standard’ gas timing is around 23. Remember, speed or banelings won't be out in time to deal with 2 rax or rax all-ins, and it will be more comfortable to hold if you have those minerals quicker, earlier, so take that into consideration when getting your gas. It’s up to you whether you want to get a fast gas around 15 that may make it harder to deal with 2 rax but easier to deal with hellions and mid-game scouting, or get it as late as in the 40’s so you can power drones and have those minerals early on for defense against rax/scv all-ins (not getting gas early on really can get you a good 300+ minerals by 50 supply though).
I would recommend inject/inject with your first queens. It makes a difference of about 2-3 supply vs inject/creep.
The 6 Queen Opener + Show Spoiler + We have seen a lot of Zergs use The 6 Queen Build and similarly mass queen openings (DRG has stated he prefers 6 queen vs 5, 4, 7, etc), as a response to 1 rax FE, as well as against older expansion openings like reactor hellion and CC First. In this section, I'll talk about Mass Queen Openings.
So this build is mostly a response to 1 rax FE, although it is fine against other openings, like reactor hellion (you will need to add some lings or a spine though) and similar fast expand builds. You can also hold any sort mass rax all-in (provided that it's gasless) like 3 rax or 7 rax.
The Basic Build Order is as follows: Hatch First 2xQueens 2xQueens ~35-45 Third, 2xGas (not a big deal when you take, it's a few drones vs hatch made earlier) 2xQueens ~55 Speed, Spine at Nat and Third, Sim City 2x Evo's at Natural to block 70+ 2xGas, Necessary Spores, Roach Warren or Baneling Nest
Macro Hatch after Third is done, Lair
You should be able to hold any sort of FE into the heaviest of all-ins with 6 queens, sim city, and reactive lings (speed will always finish before stim or medivacs or siege tanks from a FE or CC First). It's EXTREMELY important that you sim city your 2x Evos with a spine, at your natural. By doing this, you can use a single queen (like the one injecting) to block the natural off completely, so hellions have no way to get into the main or natural. It's absolutely important you Sim City your natural! It is completely mandatory, otherwise you simply will have no way to deal with hellion runbys.
By Sim City'ing, your natural with a wall-off of Evos, Spine, and 1-2 queens on hold position, you can force Terran to be only able to go to the third to do any sort of pressure... which is where you'll have a spine up, as well as 4 queens waiting.
What most pros do in regards to inject vs tumor, is they will injectx2 with queens when they pop, then send them to nat ramp to spread creep/defend. The next 2 cycles of injects will be staggered, as they won't be injected again until the next 2 queens pop, and then the next 2 queens pop. You should have a good larva to spending ratio if you do this - you dont need to inject right away, and you want creep to start going toward your third asap. Your injects really won't be delayed much at all with this style, but there is nothing wrong with injecting on time either, of course.
You should be able to hold any pressure without having to make any units at all if you do this. You can also do this sort of opening, but with a Fast Third before Pool as a reaction to CC First. Again, it's of utmost importance you sim city your natural with 2xEvo, Spine, and Queen on hold position.
Early Scouting + Show Spoiler +I would recommend drone scouting, but not everyone does it and if you don’t want to do it, that’s fine. A drone scout is just good to see if Terran is doing anything odd. Since Terran can deny a drone scout, it's not something you are relying on, it's just something that helps. No gas- CC first/1 rax FE, 2 rax, or Mass Rax all-in (Count SCVs - Almost 2 per patch, or 14-15, is usually CC First or 1 rax FE, but could be a 4-7 rax, while less than 11 SCVs, or a very obvious not near 2 per patch, is a definite 2 rax. Also, with 1 rax FE, a CC will be started, usually in the natural, right after the marine, so check for that to confirm)
Gas- Reaper Expand, Reactor Hellion, Tech Attack
Gas First (100 gas mined, or 2400 or lower in geyser, by time Rax is done or when your drone arrives) - Hellion aggression or Starport (most likely banshee, but weird things like bfh drop, or 'suboptimal' things like thor rush, are possible too - don't sweat these, the same response should cover all)
Even though Terran can wall off his ramp, it's what he does when he can't wall it off, that's important to note (CC first, 1 rax FE, double gas, 2 rax). Standard play can afford to put a depot block, but play that would cause you to do something different (not make any lings, make a ton of lings...) will not. Watch replays of your ZvT games, and see how far along the terran's rax is when your drone arrives. Personally, I rally my 13 drone to T's base - I know when it arrives, an 11 rax will be just finisihing, but a standard 13 rax will have a little bit to go. Initial Overlord should go towards his natural (if you can watch the choke to his natural to see when he sends out units, perfect). The 1st overlord you make should go over your natural, to spot for bunkers and scouting SCVs. This is absolutely important! If you decide to move your overlord, make sure to put a drone on patrol down there to spot for bunker shenanigans. If you can, your 1st overlord should go somewhere near his main to sac (personally, I put a drone on patrol at the bottom and then send the overlord if there are no air routes for it, because I find it so important). When your pool pops, unless T opened something other than rax/gas and you know already what he did (cc first, 1 rax fe, 2 rax), send your initial 2 lings to T's base (only make 2 unless T went 2 rax or reaper). What does his wall-in mean?Reactor Factory = Reactor Hellion Tech Lab Rax = Reaper (Expand most likely) Reactor Rax = Tech, most likely banshee (I don't think we see this anymore) Naked Rax = If you see a naked rax, you should be very concerned that a possible rax all-in may come. This is the only kind of all-in that hits before 40 supply. Always make sure to have a ling in front of his base, unless hellions deny it. On Not Drone Scouting+ Show Spoiler + Many people don't drone scout in ZvT, and that's fine. Your initial 2 lings can usually identify what T is doing (factory opener, expand, naked rax forcing you to be extra attentive), as well as your initial overlord (spotting a CC First/FE, sometimes even the wall-in). A good 2 rax will be obvious when Terran sends a strange scouting SCV (most Terrans don't SCV scout, and if they do, it's usually obvious what they are doing if it's hanging out the natural), and will hit before pool pops, so you won't be put in a position where you make the 'wrong' choices, because before you hit the fork in the road of "Do I make lots of lings and a spine?", the 2 rax will hit.
The drone scout allows you to make zero lings by seeing an obvious FE build (14+ SCVs/~2 SCVs per mineral patch with a gasless opener), but it's not horrible to make a pair of lings against a FE. It also allows you to catch Gas First openers, but those are uncommon these days, and you can usually pick out such builds with an overlord sac confirming too many marines for an expand build, as well as no natural put down.
Dealing with Early Game Pressure + Show Spoiler +2 Rax+ Show Spoiler + You cannot let the bunker go up. The overlord over the natural should be spotting for bunkers, and the scouting SCV will obviously be suspicious, which should clue you off to the 2 rax. The rush will hit at ~17 supply, so at 16 supply you need to pull a drone to patrol the ramp or choke (if you didn't drone scout, you'll have to assume until the overlord arrives or there's clearly no marines at your base when your pool pops).
Queue ~3 drones to attack each bunker building SCV by shift+right click spamming on them so they follow the SCV as it builds. Have about 4-5 drones per marine, and make sure the drones never engage SCVs (they have more life). It's better to pull more drones rather than less, and all you are doing is just buying about 20 seconds by attacking bunker building SCVs and the initial 1-3 marines until your lings arrive.
You will make 6+2 lings, and a queen/spine. A single spine will completely end the rush as well as any SCV all-in follow-up (sometimes 2 on certain maps). You cannot make 2 queens like you normally do, you need 8 lings (don't make more than 12), and got to get that spine asap. When your lings pop, you will still need to use your drones - move command past his marine/SCV force - when done right, the drones will wrap behind the marines and attack them while the lings attack the SCVs. Once the spine pops, you can put the drones back to mining, and the rush is completely over.
A large part of holding this is making sure a bunker doesn't go up, and making sure to take the rush seriously and pull enough drones. You will be more ahead if you just pull more drones and hold it convincingly, then have to make more lings or lose drones because you don't pull enough drones when the rush first hits.
Reaper Expand+ Show Spoiler + Your queens should deal with these. If Terran goes for a quick 11rax/12gas reaper, he has to kill at least 3 workers to make up for the build, so don’t worry if his reaper arrives super early and does damage. Just pull drones that he’s going for (pulling a drone he’s already shooting isn’t going to save it). If the reaper pressure is strong or it’s a fast reaper, I would recommend keeping all drones at the same mineral field until your queens pop.
Make sure to scout he expanded after such an opening. 5 rax reaper will beat you if you don’t have roaches or lots of static defense already set up (into roaches). Definitely sac an overlord if you don't see the expo in the natural - if he's going 5 rax reaper, he won't have enough marines to kill the overlord in time.
Reactor Hellion+ Show Spoiler + You need to spend about 300-450 minerals in defense against reactor hellion. 1 extra queen 2 spines, 2 extra queens, a queen and lings, whatever. Starting a queen after your first 2, or a spine, will finish in time to meet the first 2 hellions. With the queen buff, Zergs are able to get away with spending just around 300 now in 2 queens though.
The hellions are there to make sure you can’t run a drone out to take your third, so you will be forced to make a macro hatch instead of a third, and go 2 base macro hatch Lair or make early roaches. You should not be able to kill the hellions with just speedlings without seriously hurting your drone count, so you will be forced to just drone up on 2 bases before making units.
You can also make ~3 roaches to secure your third. This tends to be the reaction of people who go late lair, quick hive - by making roaches and a fast third, mutas will come out late, so roaches are relied upon to deal with drops (like marine/hellion drop) and early pressure instead of mutas and baneling speed. It’s up to you, and you can still go muta if you just make 3 roaches, but roaches do cost gas, and generally, the faster the third, the later the lair.
If Terran runs in his 4-6 hellions, it can be a great opportunity for you. Terran has to kill at least 8 drones to make losing 100% of his army and map control. Quickly pull drones (leave some by to attack and trap the hellions), and get your queens there. Only make some lings, if you make a full 20 lings, that's just a huge overreaction. Just continue droning, react quickly with pulling drones. If you can minimize the damage while trapping and killing all of his hellions, you can come out WAY ahead as he just lost his entire army and you can take your third for free.
Make sure Terran expanded afterwards, and if he does, you will still need to sac an overlord eventually to confirm his follow-up.
Overlord Sac at 30 + Show Spoiler + You should sac your overlord around 25 instead of 30 if you see a naked rax with your initial overlord/initial lings and he still has nothing in his natural. Otherwise, a 30 overlord sac will do (ie he took gas or FE'd). The more you know early on, the more you can delay your overlord sac.
If Terran Fast Expanded (CC First, 1 Rax CC), you should delay the overlord scout until 40.
If you do not know for certain Terran expanded, send that overlord poke/sacrifice into his main around 30 supply (you make your decisions at around 40-45 supply, such as preparing for an all-in, or taking a third). Hellions can deny lings, and many times Terran just won’t float his natural. Just seeing no expo at 6:30 is often too late to prepare for an all-in, so you will need to confirm an expo around 30 supply, one way or another. If you know or find out Terran expanded, you still need to send in that overlord to see what Terran's follow up is.
Marines, expansions, and hellions cost minerals. Lots of minerals (in early game). So there is no way for Terran to have all of these. He will either have one, or the other.
4+ Marines = likely banshees if he took gas at the start (which you may or may not have saw with your drone scout). If you know he didn’t take gas, it’s likely a 3-7 rax all-in, as an expansion will cause a cut in marine production. 3 or less Marines = Hellions likely, could be expo.
If Terran has lots of marines, you can tell he’s doing a tech heavy build or 1 base all-in. If Terran does not have lots of marines, your overlord gets in. Simple!
Understand that marines take 25 seconds to make as well. You can't make 8 marines from a single rax by the 35 supply mark. If you can't be sure that Terran expanded or not, just make some extra queens and spines. A Terran who didn't expand, not mining his natural, will be further behind than you are, and you can always cancel the defenses you started. 2 spines, or 2 extra queens, should be enough to hold any SCV all-in, and adding an evo and baneling nest around 40 just in case, when you still see no expo floated down, are good things to do.
If Terran FE'd If Terran FE'd (1 rax FE, CC First), you'll want to sac that overlord at ~40+, and you'll want to see his gas at his main.
Most of the time, Terran takes 2xGas in his main as a follow-up, and this means he wants his factory asap. The only reason Terran would want a factory asap, is for a starport asap, or double fact. So if you see 1xGas from terran very quickly, it's very likely he took his 2nd gas too. Taking just 1 gas after a 1raxFE/CC First is somewhat rare. Bear in mind that a Terran who took 2 gas quickly, will be having over 600 gas by ~40+.
Most of the time, 2xGas is hellion/banshee, as well as double ebays (sometimes it could be double fact though!). Be prepared - when Terran takes 2xGas, he won't really have the money to throw down a ton of rax, so you should see their buildings easily as they'll make it where their rax is, because of add-on swapping. If you see his rax, say, on the low ground, naked, after Terran took 2 gas, you should be very worried (it's usually an indicator of 4xStarport Banshee all-in), which can be confirmed by seeing the gas at his natural.
If Terran does not grab gas, be weary of a mass marine follow-up. Terran may also just delay his gas so he can take his third super quickly. You really need to figure out what Terran is going to do after expanding though - hellion/marauder (mass rax after factory), hellion/banshee (generally a starport right next to fact), mass rax (no gas, lots of rax), double fact (less marines, obvious 2 facts) are all options Terran has. Drops are also possible (Starport with no tech lab, additional rax, no reactor on fact).
Dealing with 1 base all-ins + Show Spoiler +So your overlord saw no expansion! What to do? Generally, all you need to know is if Terran hasn’t expanded by 40 supply, you get a baneling nest, maybe some spines, and pump lings. If your overlord is denied by 5+ marines, you won’t need roaches, but if he doesn’t have many marines, and you see what’s up, well, you’ll know when you need roaches or not. That should really be all you need to do to stop all Terran 1 base all-ins. Queens can be great too. Only banshees require a different response, but banshees are pretty obvious most of the time, or you can at least glean enough to know to make queens and precautionary spores, and queens are good for stopping any all-in in general. Most Zergs these days like to get at least a 3rd queen anyways. Banshee/Cloak/Double Starport+ Show Spoiler + Cued off by not seeing an expo for sure by ~30 supply, and more than 4 marines (maybe even a reactor rax), gas first, or double gas, you should be making a spore in your nat and main. It’s okay - even if Terran did expand, you will be ahead economically because for whatever reason, he didn’t float that expansion to his natural (also note, Terran can go banshee from 1 gas).
You will want to make up to 4 queens, if you haven’t already. It should be pretty obvious with no expo taken. You can continue droning up, and you should really start spreading creep quickly towards your third so you can take your third in reasonable time once you hold the banshees.
Even if Terran is doing something else with is 5+ marines, gas taking, somewhat empty base, build, you should be able to hold it with your 4+ queens and reactionary speedlings, banelings, and spines (thor, nuke rush, etc).
Mass Hellion+ Show Spoiler + Made obvious by a total lack of marines and your overlord getting to see everything, this is at least 2 factories pumping out hellions (2xReactor or React/Tech).
If you find out really late, 3+ spines can buy enough time for you to throw down a roach warren and get roaches in time. Banelings, Queens, and walling off with a Macro Hatch and Evo Chambers can also help buy time.
Mass Rax+ Show Spoiler + This is the only all-in that really hits before 40 supply. Alarm bells should be going off when you see a naked rax and still no expo with your initial overlord by the natural and ling poke, and your 30 overlord sac should tell you all you need to know. If you aren't sure what Terran is doing off a naked rax with no expo floated down immediately, make 2 spines at your natural. 2 spines, your queens, and reactionary lings, are all it takes to hold this. You don't need banelings to hold this, and I'd recommend you get speed before baneling nest (but banelings still do own this).
Made obvious by too many marines from a single Rax (especially from a T who expanded), 4+ marines shooting your 30 overlord poke or ling poke, and a ton of rax that he can’t hide from an overlord even if he has 5 marines to shoot it down (10 marines shooting it down at 30 supply? obvious mass rax all-in).
Also, if Terran walls in at the low ground with a depot/rax, that’s a strong indication of a 3+ rax all-in.
Hellion/Marauder+ Show Spoiler + Uh-oh - so he went reactor hellion at the start, but you see no expo around 30-35 at the natural, and so your overlord sac saw 2 more rax with tech labs instead of an expansion!
40+ supply, just make 3-5 spines (5 if you figured it out really late), and lots of reactionary speedlings. If you can get that baneling nest up, that would be great - wrap your lings behind his hellions, and let the banes tear them apart. He will have hellions, but not so many to kill the banelings before they kill off his trapped hellions. This is only difficult if you don’t see it coming.
Taking your Third + Show Spoiler +If T expanded, you are safe to take your third. You still need to sac an overlord at ~30 to see what his follow up is though. Note that if your third is too far to get creep too, or you can't sac an overlord or can't rule out banshees, you might need to make it a macro hatch instead. - Reactor Hellion
You will have to make a macro hatch, unless T loses his hellions, you can get good enough creep spread, or roaches, and go 2 base macro hatch lair.
- Hellions
Hellions = Hellions other than reactor hellion - you can make reactionary speedlings against 1 factory, but double factory will need roaches. They should hit late enough that taking your third, seeing the double fact, then making the roach warren, is safe, but using queens and creep spread, and a couple spines, is not a bad idea if you made the warren late. Double fact usually indicates mech play.
- 4 Rax
Get a baneling nest with the third, be prepared for aggression at 50+ supply
- Single Fact w/Tech Lab, 3 Rax
'Standard' play, you can drone up your third a bit, but how much depends on if T plans to take a third soon and the map size
- Marine/Marauder
Made obvious by marauders being made, no siege tank production (or factory) - you really can't drone your third. Defend the timing, and you should be ahead after you drone up your third and get a huge tech advantage
- Drop Play
You should have a baneling nest up at 50 supply, so in case Terran drops, you can pull your stuff away and deal with it without losing much. Dealing with multiple drops can be handled by patrolling a few banes at a base where your army isn't, splitting up your army, or re-rooting static defense to cover one of the bases.
- Banshee
You need to spread creep like a madman to your third, otherwise you will be forced to go macro hatch instead of third. You can still be ahead though if you don't take too much damage.
If you can't tell exactly what Terran is doing, getting a baneling nest and evo at 45 is important to make sure you can handle what Terran can possibly do. You can also make the third a macro hatch instead, if you feel vulnerable, or worry about banshees or the design of the map (Dual Sight, Steppes of War, TDA). Terran will often go for a hellion/marine drop if they see you being greedy or taking a fast third, and if you don't have banelings early on, you can really get screwed by this. By scouting, you can possibly be more greedy, but if you can't tell what's going on, get a baneling nest/roach warren, evo and creep toward your third. Note, if you drone scout and see a CC first, you can actually go reactive Third Hatch before Pool. You are safe to do this, but it will require good scouting on your part to make sure you prepare for the follow-up, and that you watch your third to make sure no bunker goes down at it (ie the overlord you normally keep over your nat, put by the third). Lair Timing + Show Spoiler + The biggest mistake I see in low level players is making their lair way too early. 5 mutas isn’t going to do anything when Terran has been making marines out of a single rax, at least, nor will infestors with zero support. The quickest lair you’ll see is ~50+ supply, but as the metagame now is more and more shifting towards a fast third, we are seeing later and later lairs (2 gas at 45, then 2 more at 55, then lair at maybe 65). If you were able to secure Third before Macro Hatch, you may want to delay your gases and lair in favor of droning up your third a bit. Generally lair will be started around 50-55 supply, but making it later than 60 is not uncommon even for 2 base macro hatch lair play.
Mech + Show Spoiler + If you were as late as making a spire before realizing it’s mech, that’s okay. Get that roach warren down (and personally, I prefer keeping the spire instead of cancelling it because you’ll need it eventually). Very simply, to play against mech, you take a fast third and fourth, get a roach warren, don't lose drones to hellions, and tech quickly to broodlords.
There are 3 ways to 'open' against mech:
Mutas: Mutas can go a long way to establish map control and critically delay Terran's third for so long that they've basically lost the game. Terran can go for a hellion/tank opening and then push out with 2 thors and lots of repairing SCVs that mutas simply don't do enough splash for, so be careful of that, but if you want to really dedicate to mutas, you will need speedbanes, and tons of spines, against this 2 base all-in (mass speedbanes can also rape mech if they don't have any siege tanks, like if they go only hellion/pure thor). The idea is to delay T's third by a long time, then massing lots of spines to delay any push while teching very fast and using the mutas to force T to stay in his base for so long that you have BL when he finally pushes. This isn't really seen anymore - both mutas vs mech, and hellion/tank (6 magic box mutas beat 1 thor, 24 mutas own 6 thors, but with repairing SCVs or more than 6 thors, it just doesn't matter how many mutas you have anymore, and hellion/tank can just insta-lose to 5 mutas, not to mention be handled by just roaches).
Mass Roaches: Since Most mech now goes hellion/thor at first, roaches are amazing at handling both of these units, and the fact that they can handle mech pushes for a long time, especially with infestor support. This can be combined with things like speedbanes, infestors, drops, etcetera. You can really do a lot of damage with roaches, and if you don't end the game, you can hopefully tech into Hive safely since you did enough damage to his army.
Fast Hive: You rely on spines/queen/lings/infestors to deal with hellion harass, get that quick fourth all the same, and just rush for Hive tech (broodlords or Ultras). This is the 'safest' way to play against mech, in that it's less 'all-in', but you need to make sure Terran is taking a third and isn't doing a 2 base mech all-in before doing this. I personally always get a baneling nest against Terran, and if I see mech play, I'll make a roach warren (won't necessarily make any roaches or even get roach speed) - if Terran does a 2 base mech all-in, I'll get roach speed, bane speed, and crush it.
While teching up to Hive, Infestors can go a long way in defending against both hellion harass and pushes with IT spam.
Ultras with NP support can also be extremely effective against mech. Ultras fare better against Thor Heavy or raven heavy mech armies, while Broodlords shine against tank heavy armies. Personally, I like to go broodlords first and then transition into Ultras if Terran makes lots of vikings or ravens, but both are perfectly viable.
Roach upgrades are generally useless against mech, due to how upgrades scale. +1 carapace is important, for both lings and roaches, against tanks and thors, but that’s it - +1 weapons Tanks will still 3 shot +3 armor roaches. Attack upgrades are always okay, but make sure not to delay your tech too much.
You should really drone up your third hard, if not double expand, and make sure to defend against hellion harass with either spines or roaches. Mech heavily relies on doing heavy drone damage with hellions, so don't let that happen. Don't be afraid to put down some spines - if you are rushing hive, they won't delay your hive tech anyways.
Once you are on 3 bases, you have a choice: Either mass roaches and do lots of aggression (good if Terran techs hard, or doesn't have many tanks, or makes too many hellions or thors), or tech as fast as possible to Hive with minimal roaches made; you can also go a middle ground between the two. Be careful though - if you don't do enough damage with mass roach, you will be in a hard spot with your late tech (especially if you aren't adding on infestors with the aggression, in favor of and harder attack).
Playing the Midgame + Show Spoiler +Make sure, at all points in the game, to have a ling in front of his base to see if he moves out, and have overlords spread to spot for drops. Creep also goes a long way for Zerg in this match-up, arguably much more so than in the other match-ups, and your success in this match-up can depend a lot on how good you are at these 3, simple things. At 50+ supply, you will need +1 carapace, and either a 2nd evo or baneling nest (depending on if you go for a quicker hive or later hive respectively). +1 carapace is important so your roaches and lings survive 1 more shot from sieged tanks. There are two ways this goes - Muta, and infestor. The idea here is to get to Hive safely one way or the other - either turtling, or with mutas. Muta+ Show Spoiler +There are 2 ways to play mutas: 1. 20+ Mutas and using lots of harass to keep T in his base, and micro to handle the 3 base push (less focus on upgrades, later hive). Stronger in mid-game, more vulnerable late-game. 2. 8-12 Mutas, and going for a fast 3 base hive, then Ultras to deal with the 3 base push (heavier focus on upgrades, quicker hive). Weaker in mid-game, stronger going into late-game. You really just need to keep your mutas alive. You don’t need to go past about 24, and you can make as few as 8. The point of the mutas is to keep Terran in his base, and it’s not necessary to even harass Terran until high masters, really (I’d say the majority of my games, I rarely actually get in Terran’s base with the Mutas and do significant damage, it's what they force in the game flow that helps). Don’t be over-aggressive with your mutas. The point of the mutas is 3 fold- 1. You force lots of turrets, and defensive posturing, which means Terran will expand later, add on rax later, and in general end up pushing out later 2. Do a ton of damage to pre-3/3/marine/medivac/tank 170+ armies. 3. Deal with drops As long as you keep your mutas alive, you should generally crush any Terran push before he has some 3/3, mass medivac, marine, tank insane army. The reason is with good attack posturing, you will just crush any push (queue up focus fire on the tanks with mutas, make sure banes don’t hit anything but marines by boxing over them as they roll and re-directing them or having them on hotkey, spreading/flanking with ling/bane in some way). I find that my losses with mutas stem from losing too many mutas by being overly aggressive or mis-micro, while stronger wins come from being more careful with my mutas. If you lose too many mutas, such as by flying over marines or being way too aggressive against his turrets and marines, you will queue Terran to push out, and you won’t have enough DPS to deal with it, as he kites your banelings and his tanks deal massive damage. By having a strong muta flock, you will punish kiting/splitting with your mutas, wreck those medivacs (which just makes marines insanely strong), and just deal a ton of extra DPS. Your Ling/Bane army should also always be near his base, ready to counter-attack or runby if he ever moves out. Having them near your base, such as being forced to pull your entire ling/bane army back home to deal with a drop, is terrible (never let that happen!). If Terran ever moves out, you should try to force him back home with ling/bane counter-attacking and your mutas (don’t force the issue by attacking a PF or strongly entrenched Terran with a few defensive tanks left behind though). If he continues on, and you can’t do more damage than he can in the short time he has to rush to your base, cut off his reinforcements and force him to siege up every step of the way. By the time he reaches your base, you will just have a much larger ling/bane/muta army than he has marine/tank, and crush it, if not have Hive tech out. Magic box his thors first in a battle if he has any (use hold+focus fire to kill it quickly), then queue up all his tanks. Personally, I will move command my ling/bane army slightly behind his marines (See Destiny’s Baneling Rape Analogy) and then a-move for a ‘stick’, and then quickly box over my banelings to make sure they hit his marines instead of tanks. You CANNOT let your banelings hit anything but marines! Having a separate hotkey for banes, or 1 for ling/bane and 2 for just those banes so you can redirect them, are good ideas too. Spreading your ling/bane before engaging is also extremely useful - a quick way to do that is to patrol your ling/bane in a long route up/down to his left/right push (make sense?). A long patrol command will split your ling/bane really well, but setting up groups of ling/bane to attack from multiple paths, or a flank, is even better if you take the time for it. Try as much as possible to engage on creep, or when he’s most unsieged. Eventually, you will need Hive, and deny his bases aggressively. You want to start trading so that you aren’t at 200/200 with BL tech out, lest Terran capitalize on you losing a ton of supply in a battle with his superior army and push in before your Hive Tech is ready, but you also can’t attack so cost inefficiently into sieged tanks, so just do as much as you can to deny bases and bleed supply that way as you replace with infestors, corruptors, and eventually morph those into broodlords. Never just lose all of your mutas or banelings at once (such as sacrificing a ton of banes into a PF while the game is still even) - this will force Terran to just push out. When Terran's army gets around 160+ supply, and 3/3, lots of tanks, 2 thors, medivacs, all the necessary upgrades, he'll reach a point where it'll be very hard to win with just ling/bane/muta, so you will need to either micro much better than he does or position better, or you will need higher tech. There will be a trade off of either making less mutas, and teching quicker, or making more mutas, and teching later. It's up to you and the map design (ie a map that is bad for muta harass, might make making more than 10 mutas a poor choice, but against an extremely aggressive Terran, you may not want to tech too quickly). Generally, it's seen as a trade-off between double evo upgrades, and lots of mutas, but you can do both if you don't plan to go Hive soon (eg a map like TDA where mobility and counterattacking is king). Note, if Terran stays low tier on marine/tank or marine/marauder, or is hyper-aggressive, instead of teching more towards ghosts, medivacs, thors, vikings, tanks, hold off on the Greater Spire, and instead go for 3/3 Adrenal and ling/bane/muta, so he can’t own you with superior mobility on maps that have multiple attack routes and your 4-5-6+ bases start to be really spread out (TDA, Cloud Kingdom, as opposed to Shakuras, Daybreak). Infestor+ Show Spoiler + Generally, you want to go later lair with this style, because you really want to race towards Hive tech and make the mid-game as short as possible, and to do that, you are going for a much stronger econ early on by having a faster third and later lair - you don't need t2 units like mutas or infestors if you have strong upgrades early on, as well, so you aren't as reliant on lair tech. You also aren't spending as much gas on mutas or banelings, but instead on infestors (a unit with purpose in late-game) and teching.
This sort of play revolves around you turtling, going toward fast hive. This is stronger on maps where Mutas are worse on - lack of airspace so you can deal with drops easier with a ground army, a close by, easy third that makes ling/bane/muta aggression easier to deal with but also makes defending your own third against drops and aggression easier with a ground army, further expos going towards the opponent.
Going Infestor is best done by taking a very fast third, sometimes even taking a third with a couple roaches vs hellions, with a late lair but fast 3 base hive. You deal with Terran aggression and drops using roach/ling/bane/upgrades on hatch tech instead of lair tech, then infestors and static defense, and then go fast hive to take your fourth and put the pressure on Terran before he gets a strong 3 base army.
Going as high as 85 drones, possibly 100 if you can take a fourth, and then constantly make static defense at your bases to deal with drops, is one way to play it. You will need baneling speed, and try not to make too many roaches (or rather, try not to lose the roaches you make), so you can get infestors, and faster hive tech. You deal with drops using spines/spores, patrolling banelings, and an infestor or two, as well as a defensive ground army, instead of mutas, while going fast hive on 3 base.
Eventually, you have broodlords on 3-4 bases. If you didn’t take too much damage, you can get those broodlords out quick enough and gain an advantage in the game by having broodlords out earlier than Terran can be prepared for them. Drops are one of the biggest ‘counters’ to this sort of play, so defending drops is critical to how you enter the late-game (overlord spread, spines+spores, infestors left at some bases, and patrolling banelings).
If Terran goes for a fast third, you can deal with this by teching to Hive quicker, or putting on lots of aggression (eg you can make 24 mutas, max out, and attack, or you can make 10 mutas and go straight to hive). It's up to you how you cut corners against it. Unless you want to do some aggression (like a baneling bust or roach/bane bust), you will want to completely drone up your third before making many units. Playing the Lategame or: Hive Timing + Show Spoiler +If you are playing a quick Hive style by going infestors, or making less than 14 mutas, you will want it on 3 base, as soon as you know Terran is going for 3 bases instead of some sort of 2 base all-in. If you are playing a more aggressive style, where you make lots of mutas, roaches, ling/bane, or infestors (eg roach/infestor aggression vs mech, although generally infestors mean late hive), you will want to delay your Hive, since you will need to focus all of your 3 base resources into building a strong mid-game army to handle the push, or lots of aggression and trading so that the Terran 150+ 3 base push comes much, much later. If playing this style, you generally only want to go for Hive once you have a maxed out army. Dealing with Terran's 3 base push can be uncomfortable if you stay on lair tech, but going hive tech can leave you vulnerable. If you don't make many mutas/infestors/roaches, you can go for Hive in time, but if you do make many infestors/roaches/mutas, you will need a maxed out army to handle the 3 base push before you go Hive. You can handle such a push with ling/bane/muta, roaches, or infestors, but eventually you WILL need Hive tech unless you are doing constant aggression and slowly killing Terran. This is a trade-off between fast hive and late hive, and late hive is generally safer against early game aggression, but both styles can be played on most maps. You should be taking a fourth when Terran takes his third, and aggressively expanding. It’s extremely important you kept up your creep spread all game - a strong, 4 base Terran can get lots of vikings, thors, and ghosts out that really deny infestors from countering their vikings. By this point, you can grab all the queens you made (you should have enough hatches to produce enough larva for you naturally), and bring them up to start spreading creep rapidly, and then planting down mass spores to prevent vikings from sniping out your Broodlords, and spines to support your army. Push up with your mass spine/spore/queen support for your BL/Infestor or Ultra/Infestor, and you should close out the game. At this point of the game, you are really trying to be more cost efficient than Terran and avoiding a loss to split map, so try to aggressively take bases on his side of the map, and being cost efficient with BL/Infestor, aggressive static defense, upgrades, and transfusing to keep the longevity of your units. Ultras+ Show Spoiler + Recently we are seeing a resurgence of Ultralisk play in ZvT, in conjunction with quick Hive play. Going quick Hive (or even 'standard' hive) into broodlords leaves you extremely vulnerable, no matter how quick you go for Hive or how easily you got your third. Ultras, however, come out quicker than Broodlords.
A way to think of them, is as Tier 2.5, and then broodlords as Tier 3. Going Ultras can be a great choice if you want to make mid-game extremely short, and move into late-game safely. Going just fast hive into broodlords is extremely risky.
Of course, you will eventually want to move on to a pure Broodlord army. The point of Ultras though, is to get you there. If you stayed on Lair tech longer, you may want to just skip Ultras.
Broodlords+ Show Spoiler + Broodlords are much greedier than Ultras, and can leave a large timing when Terran can kill you. They are extremely slow, and drops can lose you the game as a base that just barely doesn't have enough spine/ling/bane defense will be lost. They are much better on maps that tend to be split map though, to prevent counter-attacking, and are extremely cost efficient, unlike Ultras.
However, they are extremely cost efficient, and ANY Terran army can be handled by just making more broodlords, corruptors, infestors, queens, or static defense.
Broodlords need a ton of support, as they are frail and can be sniped by thors and vikings. You really need mass creep spread for broodlords, so you can use queens in conjunction with their siege range, and tons of spores and spines to protect them, as well as Infestors. This is impossible to afford on anything less than 5+ bases.
If Terran has lots of Thors, make more broodlords. If Terran has lots of bio, infestors. Vikings, infestors and spores and corruptors. The problem, is the cost and mobility - it's getting to that pure BL/Corruptor/Queen/Mass Spore/Spine/Infestor army that is the challenge.
Melee and Carapace upgrades benefit both Ultras and Broodlords (Broodlings), as well as Infestor support. Dealing with Drops + Show Spoiler + As you go later into the game, and you move towards more immobile units like Infestors, Ultras, and then Broodlords, drops can ruin you, and if you don't have the perfect amount of defense, it's a lost base (and possibly a lost game) as you have no chance of getting all the way back with a pure Broodlord/Queen army. Not only that, but even in the mid-game, a 24k/24k resource flock of Mutas becomes worthless if they have to go all the way from harassing the Terran, to protect a base. You can no longer threaten a counter-attack if Terran forces you to pull your entire army to deal with a drop, and Terran is free to run all the way across the map unsieged if he sees your army pulled back, rather than ready to backstab or catch him unsieged.
First off, catching drops requires you spread overlords. On most maps, there is no reason that you have a pool of overlords building up in your natural. Every overlord should be rallied along a route where it can spot for drops, army movements, and expansions later on, and can save you from getting overlord speed. If your first 10 overlords are all rallied from the egg, all around the edge of the map, you will notice they cover all over the map by mid-game. And by end-game, there is no reason why you should not have vision of the entire map.
Getting Overlord Speed is a crucial upgrade in order to spread overlords everywhere, but if you are good, you won't have to.
Eventually, you will need to patrol banelings and put up spines at vulnerable, outer expansions and your main, or places he is most likely to drop. Patrolling banelings is one of the most useful things I've ever learned to do - just patrol 2 banes when taking your third if you suspect drop play, and over the course of the game, slowly increase that number to 5 to deal with any sort of double 3/3 drop, and add a few spines. 5 spines + 5 banes will just crush any sort of triple drop easily, and even if it doesn't, Terran will have to micro his heart buy, and it will buy more than enough time for your Broodlords to get back. If Terran micro's, simply pull back the banes into the cover of the spines, and he'll have to pick up. Simply patrol the banes, and when you spot a drop, you can pull back necessary forces and select the banes, and run them into his drop when he's completely unloaded.
You can eventually have a small group of 5 banes patrolling between 2 bases (like 4th and 5th on Metalopolis). I find patrolling banes and putting up some spines a necessity in ZvT mid to late game, so you can be the most active with your units.
Some people use spores as well, especially if they don't go for Mutas in the mid-game. If you do use spores, it's about planting them in smart locations where you think the drop will approach from. This is also more important if you go for Ultras rather than Broodlords, or if you plan to go Ultras before Broodlords, because of how threatening medivacs are to Ultralisk armies.
Zerg All-ins + Show Spoiler +Early Pool+ Show Spoiler + Don’t let the wall-off complete, don’t let him finish a bunker in his mineral line. If he does wall-off, do everything you can to break it before a marine and repairing SCVs end your cheese. A drone scout to block the 2nd depot is critical, but this build isn’t really great against Terran.
Baneling Bust+ Show Spoiler + Great if Terran does not get factory tech, like 1 rax FE into 4 rax. Instead of going for a third and 4xGas, Lair at 40+ supply, you decide at 40 supply to go for 2 x gas, baneling nest, and mass lings. Quite the coinflip, since if Terran knows what you are doing, he can hold with lots of bunkers, but extremely strong if Terran skimps out on factory tech.
Roach All-in vs Hellion Openers+ Show Spoiler + 28 Roach Warren, make 3 overlords and pool larva, morph 8+ roaches and send towards Terran. You can reinforce with speedlings, or choose to drone up instead. Note that you can only reinforce with speedlings if you took gas before 20.
Terran’s initial 2 hellions will arrive before your roaches pop, so you will need to defend the first 2-4 hellions as you normally do. If Terran doesn’t make marauders, a siege tank, or bunkers, as well as lift-off from his nat, he will take a ton of damage, but if he scouts that this is coming, he should be prepared.
Roach/Baneling Bust+ Show Spoiler + Popular recently in the metagame to punish Terran’s going Fast Third, this is close to a build order win against Fast Third terrans (they have a small chance of holding if they see what you are up to in time and go for marauder/tank/bunkers and lift off at the nat immediately), and punishes any Terran who doesn't make siege tanks in reasonable time (medivacs+marauders can go a long way to defending, but a terran going bio+hellions can be in trouble).
~45 3 x Gas (or 2xGas ~33) ~45 Roach Warren, Speed, stockpile overlords and larva @100% Roach Warren, 8+ Roaches, baneling nest, rally forward speedlings to morph into mass banes
Target wall-offs, bunker, attacking SCVs (40 SCVs can cause a huge shield against non-splash roaches and lings, so they are a big target if you want your attack to be effective on a practical level). Push back hellions with just 2-3 forward roaches, so he thinks you are going for a third against hellions instead of an all-in, and try to hide your tech so a lucky scan doesn’t reveal what you are doing. Hiding your army and morphing banes until the last moment, to the side, is a good idea too.
Quick Mutas+ Show Spoiler + Using super fast mutas, you can punish a FE into Fast Third. If Terran does not take a fast third, you aren't so far behind that you lose, as you can quickly secure your third.
Open Gas, Speed, Lair 2xGas when Lair is nearly finished, Spire, ~5+ Mutas when Spire is done
Replays/VOD Examples + Show Spoiler +Zerg All-ins+ Show Spoiler +Defending Terran All-ins & Pressure+ Show Spoiler +- Curious vs Bomber GSL S3 Up&Down Group B
How to hold 2 Rax Curious denies the bunker as much as possible, but he responds perfectly - he got the spine asap in range, out of range of the bunker, when the bunker nears completion, he surrounds the bunker to block marines from getting in. 8 Lings
- Myself vs Ladder
How to hold 3 rax All-in with 6 queen, Fast Third Despite having taken my third vs a 1 base all-in, I knew you can hold any sort of opening from a gasless Terran with 6 queen. His marines arrive right when 4 queens are out, I pull drones momentarily, but am able to hold him off until I can have enough lings to push him back. From there I just cannot lose the game.
- Myself vs Ladder
How to hold Double Starport All-in Despite not seeing any starports or banshees, I knew it was banshees because of double gas, more than 3 marines, and no expo mining. Other factors like only a single hellion, a completely empty base with just 1 fact and 1 rax with no add-ons, and 2 geysers, clued me in that that 700+ gas was going to starport tech
Normal Games+ Show Spoiler +- Myself vs Ladder
Mech (Going Mass Roach)
- Myself vs Ladder
Mech (Teching Quickly, no roaches)
- Myself vs Ladder
How to hold 2 Rax Pressure, standard ZvT ling/bane/muta, extreme lategame ZvT
- Stephano vs Bomber IPL4 WR1 Set 1
Standard Infestor, Fast Hive style
- Myself vs Ladder
Standard Ling/Bane/Muta
- DRG vs MKP MLG Spring Arena I
Minimal Muta into Upgrades, Faster Hive Style
- Myself vs Ladder
Example of unsure scouting In this game I just see a naked rax, and no expansion. Although he went 1 Rax FE, I could rule out 2 Rax by the Rax timing. I made spines and lings when I see a couple marines, but when he floated down his expo, I cancelled the spines, took my third, and with an eventual overlord sacrifice I could see his follow-up
- Myself vs Ladder
Reactive Third Hatch before Pool vs drone scouted CC First, Infestor Fast Hive into Ultra into BL
- DRG vs Bomber GSL S4 Code S Ro32 Set 1, Group H
6 Queen Opener, Dealing with 1 rax FE Reactor Hellion Banshee
- Myself vs Ladder
6 Queen Opener vs 1 rax FE Hellion/Banshee, Fast BL vs Mech
- Myself vs Ladder
How to deal with Mass Ravens Once Terran has over 40 supply in viking/raven, a pure ultra army just rocks anything he has on the ground. Ravens are not very good against Ultras
- Myself vs Ladder
Going Infestors, Fast Hive, No roaches, vs Mech Despite T doing a 3 base Thor all-in before Hive tech is near done, mass IT spam, queens, and lings are enough to deal with his quick mech push, even with lots of hellions.
|
Everything I've been looking for! An awesome, comprehensive guide to zvt. Thanks heaps!
|
I have been waiting for this for quite some time. I'm going to gobble it all up and write my thoughts down later
Edit: The overall guide was top notch, especially the third timings for the Terran and Zerg. However I have to inject with the Ultralisk part. Ultralisks are great IF you know how to use them and if you let your Terran opponent not build up a huge Medivac count.
When I play an infestor style, I almost always plan on going for a faster hive and Ultralisk den. During the midgame I have a heavy focus on sniping Medivacs with Sporecrawlers and Infestors. If you can keep him from getting a large Medivac cloud you will have a much easier time playing an Ultralisk-style.
Combining Ultralisks with speedbanes is a MUST. You need the instant-AoE the baneling explosions provide to deal with Marauders being split up into individual pockets with Medivac support because the Ultras just won't get enough damage off fast enough to deal with a well microed MMM ball. Infestor/Ultra won't cut it because the fungals just don't do damage fast enough and a good Terran will have spread his forces out before being engaged. The fungals only serve to pin the MM down for the Banelings to close in. Then, when most of the force is evaporated and your Ultralisks still stand and you can counter attack a base, you will have executed a good Ultralisk strategy.
|
Thanks a lot for this man, your guides are always really in-depth and helpful, been looking for some help with ZvT for some time.
|
Your guides are great Don't play Z thogh
|
Excellent write-ups. Loved your comprehensive ZvP thread and have been eagerly awaiting the ZvT one. It does not dissapoint
*Edit* Request an addition against the 1/1/1 build for us n00bies. Didn't see it listed on the 1-base all-ins T can do.
|
Awesome guide. Thanks for this. Let's see if I can get finally into Masters
|
Yes! I've been waiting for your ZvT for a long time, after the awsomeness of your ZvP guide! I didn't read all of it yet but I already want to thank you for the time and the dedication that you put in all of your guides and posts in general. Keep up the good work, Belial, you're helping a ton of zerg players ;-)
|
Really great guide! I wish a good protoss and terran would do guides like this one for the other matchups, it really helps understanding the matchups .
|
|
I've been looking forward to this for weeks! Great guide, keep it up!
|
Very nice guides i saw your name in my ladder division and i was going to ask if it really was you and i checked your sc2ranks profile you have and it WAS you! im ErrorBMC. I just wanted to thank you for the guides.
|
Wow, thanks a lot Belial! I read the whole thing :D
|
Just curious, are you the same Belial that complained no maps were z favored and the best zerg maps were the ones that zerg was least screwed on?
|
Yet another great guide!
Speaking of ultras in ZvT, on TL's This Week in Replays they feature Haypro. One of his ZvT's versus Rsjustice shows a three base infestor/ling/ultra into broodlord switch on Cloud Kingdom. It might be a handy replay for your replay section
|
I'm in the personal belief that the "quicker lair" style, ie. the 2base muta style, normally shouldn't take a quick third without a macrohatch regardless of whether terran reactor hellion expanded or 1rax expanded.
The typical hatch pool 15-17gas into fast lair 4gas 1evo 8muta style, shouldn't be able to hold a third on most current map pools at the proposed ~40 supply timing without a macro hatch. It needs 4hatch production to hold off any midgame aggression, and there isn't many reasons I can think of - other than terran triple OC'ing - to take a natthird before a macrohatch in a standard nonmetagamed game. Considering that you are forced to float 500 minerals at this timing, its tempting to grab a third, but I have rarely seen that third being held on maps like metropolis, entombed and ohana, and still risky as hell on maps like daybreak and korhal.
|
Just curious, are you the same Belial that exiled the three Prime Evils to Sanctuary, after which a civil war broke out between the two Lesser Evils over the control of the Burning Hells?
Great write up! :D
|
I've been eagerly awaiting this since you mentioned it was in production. I don't have critiques to add because I suck, but this will certainly be helpful for me. Great work man.
|
Finally a ZvT guide wich is not a strange build or outdated Thx for this great guide!!!
|
My god... This guide is so good. I wish Terran players had as good a guide.
Also curious about this:On May 26 2012 05:49 NexUmbra wrote: Just curious, are you the same Belial that exiled the three Prime Evils to Sanctuary, after which a civil war broke out between the two Lesser Evils over the control of the Burning Hells?
Great write up! :D
|
Do not trust him, he is the Lord of Lies.
|
Everything I've been looking for! An awesome, comprehensive guide to zvt. Thanks heaps!
Thanks a lot for this man, your guides are always really in-depth and helpful, been looking for some help with ZvT for some time.
Your guides are great Don't play Z thogh
Excellent write-ups. Loved your comprehensive ZvP thread and have been eagerly awaiting the ZvT one. It does not dissapoint
Awesome guide. Thanks for this. Let's see if I can get finally into Masters
Yes! I've been waiting for your ZvT for a long time, after the awsomeness of your ZvP guide! I didn't read all of it yet but I already want to thank you for the time and the dedication that you put in all of your guides and posts in general. Keep up the good work, Belial, you're helping a ton of zerg players ;-)
Really great guide! I wish a good protoss and terran would do guides like this one for the other matchups, it really helps understanding the matchups .
Great work! Thanks
Very nice guides i saw your name in my ladder division and i was going to ask if it really was you and i checked your sc2ranks profile you have and it WAS you! im ErrorBMC. I just wanted to thank you for the guides.
Wow, thanks a lot Belial! I read the whole thing :D
Yet another great guide!
Great write up! :D
I've been eagerly awaiting this since you mentioned it was in production. I don't have critiques to add because I suck, but this will certainly be helpful for me. Great work man.
Finally a ZvT guide wich is not a strange build or outdated Thx for this great guide!!!
My god... This guide is so good. I wish Terran players had as good a guide.
I played d3 beta (got to max level with all chars) but that's it. I have no plans to get D3 - D2X was the best game ever made (better than brood war *gasp*), I loved it. That game WAS not only my middle school, but also my high school, and college (all of college, except first semester of freshmen year). I'm probably the biggest d2x guy here. What really made the game great though, was Hardcore mode, and all the imperfections - I loved how Blizzard still updated the game, but largely abandoned it, and that it became a haven of hax. It was these imperfections that made the game awesome in my opinion - from duping, allowing low level players to have a decent chance to actually play the full content of the game (solo'ing hell, dueling at a high level, dueling with twinks).
What was my favorite part of D2XHC, was PKing. Yep, I'm a huge troll, I get it, but hardcore mode was amazing - it was Jerry Springer mixed with WoW. Despite the impression many complain about tppkers and pkers ruined the game for normal people, everyone who selected to play hardcore, knew exactly what they were getting in to (or found out in 20 minutes when they got killed and then never came back because they were a bitch). And everything about HC was amazing, from leveling up from 1 to 30 and seeing how many of your party would get pk'd by randoms who joined the game (maybe even helping those pkers yourself because that asshole barb stole your drop), to low level newbs trying to give each other dirty portals, to the HUGE dramas that happened when, say, BMPK clan infiltrated the largest US East HC clan, which was run by a total douchebag, who made his clan pay him basically and get HIM to level 99 first on each reset, pk'ed his character after befriending him for 3 months and then sold the ear on d2jsp (nirvana-).
Another great memory is when some guy ran around pking level 10's with his lvl 80 amazon, that he clearly bought, and the gear, and he said he paid $200 for it and how awesome he was. He then accepted a duel from a level 26 necro - and the necro teleported right onto her, killed her immediately, and the shit talker was to never come back (obvoiusly, the necro was a twink run by someone who knew what they were doing). That was the great thing about D2XHC - no one was untouchable, if you ever left town, no matter how privately you played, even if you solo'd the game, you COULD be killed if someone wanted you dead. Which just made the game so damn exciting - both that you could kill any little punk for shittalking if you tried hard enough (sneak into a game of someone who is in his clan by bribing them, et cetera), and that people may be out there trying to kill you, and you could never tell if the person who came in, whom you've never heard of, was some type of anti-pker. The community was so small when I played that everyone knew everyone above level 80.
HC was amazing, so I'm sad to see that the new HC mode in D3 has no ability to duel, much less pk. Dueling should always be allowed, and I was upset about the new arena mode as well. They are just making the game WoW, and that really bums me out. D2 is all about you, yourself - unlike WoW, which is a team effort. To make the dueling arena mode is just soooo stupid and against what diablo is all about - you are the lone hero who makes it to hell.
So no. I don't plan to buy D3 at the moment. I'm sure it's worth $60, but I enjoy starcraft more than enough for now, and I'm sure I'll play it for at least the next 5 years.
|
Edit: The overall guide was top notch, especially the third timings for the Terran and Zerg. However I have to inject with the Ultralisk part. Ultralisks are great IF you know how to use them and if you let your Terran opponent not build up a huge Medivac count.
When I play an infestor style, I almost always plan on going for a faster hive and Ultralisk den. During the midgame I have a heavy focus on sniping Medivacs with Sporecrawlers and Infestors. If you can keep him from getting a large Medivac cloud you will have a much easier time playing an Ultralisk-style.
Combining Ultralisks with speedbanes is a MUST. You need the instant-AoE the baneling explosions provide to deal with Marauders being split up into individual pockets with Medivac support because the Ultras just won't get enough damage off fast enough to deal with a well microed MMM ball. Infestor/Ultra won't cut it because the fungals just don't do damage fast enough and a good Terran will have spread his forces out before being engaged. The fungals only serve to pin the MM down for the Banelings to close in. Then, when most of the force is evaporated and your Ultralisks still stand and you can counter attack a base, you will have executed a good Ultralisk strategy.
Maybe I can add someone about how big of a pain medivacs are to ultras? As for AoE, I see most zergs skimp on banes when going ultras, so they can get more infestors, ultras, upgrades, and continue towards broodlords. I'll recheck the games I've looked at though.
Edit* Request an addition against the 1/1/1 build for us n00bies. Didn't see it listed on the 1-base all-ins T can do.
Well... no. There's a few reasons.
1. Terran doesn't really do a 1/1/1 against Zerg. It just doesn't work like it does against protoss. The reason is because zerg always expands, so the reason it's so effective against Toss (MULEs and better 1 base economy vs Toss 1 base) isn't really there anymore. Terran units are quite frail, especially in small numbers, and with zerg having 2 hatch 2 queen, they can easily overpower the Terran's production. You never see 1/1/1 in higher level play, because it doesn't work, because of good macro. If you are losing to 1/1/1, that is completely a problem of your macro. Work on improving your macro - as I state in the guide, as long as Terran gets gas, there is no all-in they can do that can't be easily held if you completely drone up to 40, THEN react (except gasless 4-7 rax all-in, which I specify).
2. A 1/1/1 is really just 2 different attacks, and stages in the game, that you, as a zerg, have 2 different opportunities to either fall behind or get ahead.
The first, is just banshees. So you scout Terran still hasn't quite expanded yet (if you drone scouted, maybe you saw his gas timings, but we can't rely on that due to depot block, but if you are low level, you should definitely drone scout) at 30 supply, you need to sac an overlord. Terran cannot hide an expansion, it's too big, and it's generally always near the natural or next to his CC, so knowing Terran didn't expand and is 1 basing, you can deduce it's banshees immediately when you see there isn't a ton of buildings in his base (no mass rax) and no hellions (marines = no hellions). Things like seeing double gas, 5 marines, a rax at the wall-in, are also huge hints to a banshee opener.
So after 40 supply, you need to throw down that evo chamber, and get 4 queens total. That's how you hold banshees, as I state in the guide. Quite easy.
So now you are ahead, or behind, based on how you handled the banshee.
Then, Terran still doesn't expand. You know this because you kept an overlord by his natural, and a ling in front of his base (maybe you could only get 1 overlord safely to his base on this map, like Cloud Kingdom, that's okay - the ling tells you what you need to know). By 9:00 Terran needs to put his expo on the low ground, no matter how late he took it, and even if he didn't, just prepare for a 1 base play all the same, as Terran is behind for not floating down his natural.
So you held the banshees off, and you droned hard against it, because units are worthless against air so you were hopefully pumping drones, just like you should vs stargate in zvp, and mutas in zvz.
Well, you hit 50+ supply. As I state in my guide, at 50+ supply, you need to get either double evo, or a baneling nest+evo, unless you know for certain that you can be greedier.
With a 50+ supply 1/1 or 0/1 baneling nest, you will EASILY crush Terran's push with lings made reactively. Maybe you took your third, maybe you didn't because you realized Terran still hasn't expanded. Whatever. As soon as Terran pushes out of his base, you morph the handful of lings you made after 50 supply, into banelings, and pump lings. You may need to pull your queens, maybe it will be tight, but you should easily hold it. Not to mention that it should be obvious that Terran still hasn't expanded, is clearly going to follow-up with a 1 base all-in, and you pumped units.
1/1/1 is extremely easy to hold as Zerg - it's just a banshee opener that you need to scout.
Against early game terran, zerg units are really good. Terran NEEDS support for ALL of their units - medivac+marine, maruader+marine, hellion+tank, marine+tank. On their own, each unit sucks. Because of the way terran production works, there is just NO way for terran to ever get a lot of units out - knowing this, it should really, really clue you off when you see no expo around 5:30 with your ~30 overlord sac.
So you see Terran didn't expand. Well, you sac an overlord. If he has more than 2, maybe 3, marines, then you should prepare for possible hellions. Roaches are great against hellions, but speedlings against initial smaller numbers of hellions, queens, and even banelings, are all amazing against hellions in the early game. Same with marines. What beats no-stim+medivac marines? Speedlings. Funny, speedlings can beat hellions in very early game too.
What if Terran has at least 3+ marines, meaning he obviously isn't going hellions (3+ marines will deny an overlord, 1-2 marines won't)? Maybe you are unsure of what Terran is doing. Most likely, he's going banshees, but he could be going BC, thor, anything. What handles all of this? 4 queens, lings and banelings!
If Terran clearly hasn't expanded by about 40+ supply, and marines deny your overlord, and it's a rax at the wall-in - get a baneling nest, get an evo and eventually 1 spore per mineral line, and get 4 queens. Make some speedlings. You will easily hold whatever Terran is doing - all you want to do, is just try to be greedier, but really, a 40+ baneling nest, evo, and 4 queens will stop any all-in pretty cold. Even if he's going nukes? Transfuse everything, manually detonate banelings where that shimmer is. Easy.
So yea. 1/1/1 is not viable against Zerg, if you are struggling against it, learn how to deal with the banshee opener better, and then just macro better. That's all.
|
Just curious, are you the same Belial that complained no maps were z favored and the best zerg maps were the ones that zerg was least screwed on?
Back when the map pool was Backwater Gulch, Typhon Peaks, Backwater Gulch XNC... yes. There were definitely no zerg favored maps, and the best maps were ones zerg was least screwed on (nerazim crypt, backwater gulch, typhon peaks, close spawns?). Remember Slag Pits?
The maps were horrible back then. None of those maps were good for Zerg. Even shakuras plateau today is known as horribly imbalanced ZvT since Terran just takes a third eventually with siege tanks (or even quicker), then splits the map in half and easily wins in a split map scenario. We STILL have close spawns on Antiga Shipyard and Entombed Valley.
This season, is truly the first season where Zerg can play a map pool that isn't completely broken. You can veto Antiga and Entombed (which are actually half decent maps when it's cross spawn, although it's still T/P favored maps in cross spawn, but it's at least playable - not balanced, just playable), and that leaves you a free veto choice, in either Shakuras (which is actually quite good in ZvZ and ZvP, and in most games will be fine ZvT, just don't let it get to lategame without a significant advantage), or TDA ('balanced', but completely broken in that you can't even play standard ZvP vs FFE because if you take a fast third, you autolose to a tech oriented gateway all-in like blink or immortal/sentry due to distance of bases or killing your econ to break rocks and be forced to do a semi-all-innish 2 base play like mutas and hope P doesn't build order counter it or scout and prepare, which you can't deny because he knows you can't 3 base on that map, and ZvT sucks with the ledge and impossibly hard 4+ bases, and ZvZ is lame because you can't go hatch first due to unable to block the ramp, and you can't take fast third so it's all 2 base play).
Now, we have enjoyable Zerg maps for the FIRST time - Daybreak, Metalopolis without close spawn (this is one map that has been zerg favored for a while ever since they removed close spawn, and is actually imbalanced in favor of Zerg in ZvP because Zerg just takes the gold vs FFE), Korhal (slightly T favored in ZvT, but is still, imo, a fun map despite being Terran favored, and somewhat favored in ZvP at different stages of the game for different races and styles but as a whole, balanced for both sides), Ohana.
This season we still have some bad maps though - Shakuras ZvT (like I said, most games don't go that late anyways so just hope terran is dumb enough to be aggresive in the early game instead of take a fast third and force a macro game), TDA, close spawn antiga/entombed, and cloud kingdom (protoss stomping ground, hell for scouting and dealing with pushes in zvt).
Just my take on it, maybe other races would not agree completely with that analysis, but I'm sure Zergs would. I've heard Terrans say they veto maps based on the colors, but with the rate of the map pool changes, Zerg may one day have that luxury of vetoing out of preference rather than necessity.
I'm in the personal belief that the "quicker lair" style, ie. the 2base muta style, normally shouldn't take a quick third without a macrohatch regardless of whether terran reactor hellion expanded or 1rax expanded.
The typical hatch pool 15-17gas into fast lair 4gas 1evo 8muta style, shouldn't be able to hold a third on most current map pools at the proposed ~40 supply timing without a macro hatch. It needs 4hatch production to hold off any midgame aggression, and there isn't many reasons I can think of - other than terran triple OC'ing - to take a natthird before a macrohatch in a standard nonmetagamed game. Considering that you are forced to float 500 minerals at this timing, its tempting to grab a third, but I have rarely seen that third being held on maps like metropolis, entombed and ohana, and still risky as hell on maps like daybreak and korhal.
In the build order section, I simply say 3rd hatch and 4th hatch, not bases or macro hatch.
However, with the recent buff of the queen, maps where the third is in reasonable distance, and disfavor of reactor hellion, it's definitely possible to take that third as your 3rd hatch. Also, I actually personally prefer taking the third and going later lair with mutas. Even with muta play, we are seeing pros go later, later, and later with their mutas - there is no particular timing to hit with the mutas, they are just a strong unit for the entirety of mid-game, and pros clearly prefer to make drones and have later mutas, rather than sacrifice economy and third timing just for the chance to maybe kill a couple SCVs, which won't work against a prepared Terran, and is unlikely to make up for the damage you did to yourself compared to just having droned up 3 bases.
But as the guide shows, it's entirely up to you. I state in the build order that you simply need another hatchery at ~40 supply, it's up to you whether to take it as a third, or make it an in-base macro-hatch.
I also state in the section about how to deal with Terran pressures, that if Terran goes reactor hellion, it is unlikely you can take your third unless you can get creep their in time (or use roaches, which is unlikely if you plan to go mutas). With some of the new maps, it's definitely possible to get creep their in time so you can use just 4 queens to take your third against reactor hellion, and many Terrans don't go reactor hellion anymore, so it's only correct that you capitalize on this by taking a quicker third.
Even if you plan to go 2 base muta, you should definitely react to what Terran is doing. If they do a FE build, I would strongly recommend you take your third over a macro hatch, instead of just saying "nope, Im going 2 base muta and I'm sticking to it!" You need to react to what Terran is doing, and if you don't, you'll fall behind economically (going 2 base macro hatch lair vs fast third? you'll have an extremely hard time against the 3 base push).
So it's up to you, the guide just sets the standards, and leaves much up to you. You can definitely go 2 base macro hatch lair, even against FE-Fast Third builds. For example, 2 base macro hatch lair muta into third builds, can put a TON of aggression on fast third terrans when about 15+ mutas pop - you can often just kill the Terran with the aggression.
And you CAN hold the third against aggression, by the way. There is no difference between making that hatchery in-base, or at your third and walking a queen over there, in terms of production, You can see in the build order section, that I state that you NEED to make 4 hatches total, regardless of whether you take your third first or second. Production is the same either way, but income is what is different.
Now the only reason you can't take a third in ZvT, is: 1. Reactor Hellion (against FE into single reactor Hellions, queens and speedlings will be able to deal with them, and you can get the third before more than 2 arrive. 2. 1 base all-ins.
What is questionable, is if you can drone the third up. Against a strong, dedicated, 2 base all-in marine/marauder, yes, you can't drone at all. You can definitely hold the third. If you can provide replays showing zergs losing their third, please PM me - at the same time, I'll look for some games where Zerg holds the third against a 2 base all-in.
Production is the same whether you take a third or macro hatch. The only reason people made in-base hatch instead of third for forever, was because of reactor hellion. You still can't usually take your third against reactor hellion, which I state in the guide.
I've been eagerly awaiting this since you mentioned it was in production. I don't have critiques to add because I suck, but this will certainly be helpful for me. Great work man.
Please, feel free to critique. You are welcome to PM me if you second guess yourself. I'm not good by any means, I'm only 800-900 some points masters. This guide is not about proposing anything new, it's simply a resource for people who may be lost on the general direction of ZvT.
Of course, it's my guide, but I make sure to state all things that are my opinion, style, or preference, as exactly that, and not the standard.
Finally a ZvT guide wich is not a strange build or outdated Thx for this great guide!!!
I know right. The reason I write these is because of how many dopes write shit guides, and then say "oh you are so welcome" when just as ridiculous people say how good the guide is. This is a motherfuckng guide, not those other pieces of crap. This is how it's done.
And yea, too many crap guides about how to all-in. How about a guide on how to actually play, right? These guides generally carry on about how to play an actual, good game (if you want to all-in, there's nothing stopping you from just going "mass units when the wind blows at this particular time". Not unique at all.
|
What exactly do you mean with 2x Queens? Do you mean 2 additional Queens so you have 4 in total. Or do you count 2 extra queens to "necessary defense"?
|
Belial, massive props. I've felt for ages that was completely under represented in the strategy section, partly due to us being a reactive race but also partly because people tend to just wing it. Your six pool guide made it so I'm praying for my opponent to cheese me. Having these kind of resources is good when you're feeling in a rut with your play.
I think as zergs we need to expand our approach to mech though. I'm sure there are styles that haven't come out yet because people just don't play mech regularly enough, but the whole mass roach thing feels horrible to me. Also there are actually quite a few mech variations I've seen: Hellion Tank, Hellion Thor, Hellion Banshee Viking Raven, Hellion Marauder Thor (well kinda mech), any of these +/- ghosts.
Also particularly once you get to a split map situation the terrans seem to be more and more willing to bring out the battlecruisers of late, although maybe that's just the caliber of players I'm against.
Cheers!
|
Nice work sir! Well done guide! I am really happy that you are very specific about your macro benchmarks and timings ^_^
On May 25 2012 18:57 Chaosvuistje wrote:I have been waiting for this for quite some time. I'm going to gobble it all up and write my thoughts down later Edit: The overall guide was top notch, especially the third timings for the Terran and Zerg. However I have to inject with the Ultralisk part. Ultralisks are great IF you know how to use them and if you let your Terran opponent not build up a huge Medivac count. When I play an infestor style, I almost always plan on going for a faster hive and Ultralisk den. During the midgame I have a heavy focus on sniping Medivacs with Sporecrawlers and Infestors. If you can keep him from getting a large Medivac cloud you will have a much easier time playing an Ultralisk-style. Combining Ultralisks with speedbanes is a MUST. You need the instant-AoE the baneling explosions provide to deal with Marauders being split up into individual pockets with Medivac support because the Ultras just won't get enough damage off fast enough to deal with a well microed MMM ball. Infestor/Ultra won't cut it because the fungals just don't do damage fast enough and a good Terran will have spread his forces out before being engaged. The fungals only serve to pin the MM down for the Banelings to close in. Then, when most of the force is evaporated and your Ultralisks still stand and you can counter attack a base, you will have executed a good Ultralisk strategy.
What Chaosvuistje said! (lol STOP copying me bro)
|
What exactly do you mean with 2x Queens? Do you mean 2 additional Queens so you have 4 in total. Or do you count 2 extra queens to "necessary defense"?
2 queens, as in 2 queens total. The part that says "necessary defense" means whatever you want to defend against things like reactor hellion or whatever - generally, this means anything from 1 spine, 1 queen. The build is made in such a way that every single pro follows it. Everyone does something different though, but we all get 2 queens at least. Some people get 3 queens total and a spine, or 2 queens 2 spines, or 2 queens and some lings, or 4 queens, whatever.
think as zergs we need to expand our approach to mech though. I'm sure there are styles that haven't come out yet because people just don't play mech regularly enough, but the whole mass roach thing feels horrible to me. Also there are actually quite a few mech variations I've seen: Hellion Tank, Hellion Thor, Hellion Banshee Viking Raven, Hellion Marauder Thor (well kinda mech), any of these +/- ghosts.
There are plenty of things you can do against mech. This guide just says the basics - either use roach aggression, or tech up. It doesn't go in to detail saying things like, roach drops, multi-pronged attacks, using burrow move, roach/infestor aggression, roach/hydra (i know, but someone said it worked good i think).
There really isn't much difference between the mech variations that you specify. You just need to handle the hellion harass, and hellion/tank is a little different than hellion/thor, but the end result is the same. If someone is adding in tech like banshees, ravens, it leaves them more vulnerable to aggression earlier in the game, but a stronger army later in the game.
And I don't think anyone feels that roaches into bl/infestor is particularly lacking in any way against mech. I'm not sure what the pros feel about it, but mech doesn't seem too successful anymore against zerg.
Thanks endofline.
|
Yay, I have been waiting for this guide to come out to actually resume my strategy training, thank you! Now we need a ZvZ guide (even though I'd say Tang's http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=310142 is pretty awesome.)
PS: Update the link on the ZvP guide, I tried to find this guide from my bookmark on that one and failed epicly ):
|
^ Updated.
I dislike Tang's guides (don't get me wrong - he gives great advice, and his posts are good) because they emphasize, what I feel, is bad play. He just talks about all-inning, and some of his guides I feel don't offer anything new (like the guide linked, it's just mass speedlings after expanding, and if that doesn't work, make roaches). I also don't agree with his philosophy, such as the philosophy in the zvz guide about how aggression is so great in zvz (i disagree, it's a macro match-up - I'd say easily the majority of my zvz games get to 3 bases).
So I write guides like this on standard, solid play. This guide really isn't that great, it doesn't offer anything most people at higher level don't already know. But it shocks me that there isn't any very basic, simply, straightforward guides on how to play the match-ups.
I'll write a ZvZ guide soon (i actually punched one up a few months ago, never posted it because didn't complete it, and by now I'm pretty sure it's just wrong due to metagame shifts), but there are still some things I still don't fully understand about the match-up. It was only a few months ago when everyone was saying that ling/bane/muta is the superior unit composition, and that any zerg who doesn't go mutas is stupid.
|
Another great guide Belial! Your ZvP guide helped me out a lot when P used to be my worst matchup by far. Guides are not hard to come by but a lot of people seem to think that they can make a comprehensive guide by simply breaking down their own successful niche-style of play without doing the legwork and research. As an engineer I think you definitely have the right mentality when it comes to analyzing the game in general.
The tip about patrolling banes to defend against drops is going to help me out a lot I can already tell. You also mention just spines as static defense against drops which begs the question: do you never build spores? Even a couple well placed ones? I just ask because my humble observation has been that T can usually be cost-effective with even drops that don't go well as long as he saves the medivacs.
My question is how high of a priority would rate targeting down the medivacs from drops with either queens, infestors, or a handful of mutas?
|
Doesn't 15 hatch lets you get out 1 more drones than 14 hatch?
|
^http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481
Clearly, 14/15 is superior to 16/15 by 100 minerals. I also heard somewhere that 15/15 was behind 14/15 by 50 minerals (i cant find where that was said though).
That thread was made a while ago though (he says "I know from my own experience that it is very rare to want to take a third hatchery before the 6 minute mark in an actual game" when you see it as the standard in zvp now, it's standard to take a third just after 6:00 now in zvz, and it's arguably the standard in zvt, if not becoming it). So I'm actually going to test it out myself just to make sure.
Either way, it doesn't matter. I'm well aware none of the koreans go 14 hatch (then again, they only stopped going extractor trick half a year ago, and half of them still do), and I don't say in the guide you have to go 14 hatch. I simply said I go 14 hatch, and it's my belief that 14 hatch is better because of that thread 'proving' 14 hatch as the best (i suppose this takes faith that this thread is valid, the OP is banned now, but you can see he did a lot of testing, as did others, in that large thread).
My guide simply says hatch first. It's up to you if you want to do 15, 14, or any other hatch first, really.
As for 15 hatch getting you 1 more drone than 14 hatch.... no that's not really true... i mean 6 pool gets the same number of drones as hatch first. The real question is how many minerals you mine by X time (since many of the 'suboptimal' builds are way ahead of 'better' builds for a long time, even 11pool/18 hatch is ahead for a while of 'optimal' openings for the first 4 minutes).
The tip about patrolling banes to defend against drops is going to help me out a lot I can already tell. You also mention just spines as static defense against drops which begs the question: do you never build spores? Even a couple well placed ones? I just ask because my humble observation has been that T can usually be cost-effective with even drops that don't go well as long as he saves the medivacs.
My question is how high of a priority would rate targeting down the medivacs from drops with either queens, infestors, or a handful of mutas?
I never build spores. I know others do, but to me it just seems Terran can just move around them, and if he drops in front of either a spine or spore, he's screwed, but if he drops to the side, a spore is useless while a spine is still just as strong.
This also has to do with players going muta vs infestor. Personally, I always go muta in ZvT - if you don't have mutas, and are going infestors, you may need spores (especially in conjunction with FG). Terran does get to keep his medivacs (eventually I have no mutas as I transition to bl/infestor, obviously), but he could keep them if he stays away from spores anyways. It just doesnt seem consistent enough.
I'll edit the guide to say something like "Static defense" instead of spines, because much better players than myself use spores, and don't always go mutas though. I personally don't feel spores are useful, but this thread isn't the place for me to say what I personally believe, it's more about explaining the standard way ZvT is played and it's up to you to do what you want stylistically.
As for targetting medivacs, I've tested it in Unit Tester. It depends, really.
In a straightforward fight, you should never target medivacs with your mutas. Just a-move.
However, you don't want to lose mutas to fighting marines in a drop - if you have 20 mutas vs 16 marines from a doubledrop, you will lose a muta or few if you fight straight up. What is recommended, in a real game, is to actually snipe the medivacs with your mutas, then run away and clean up with your ground army. Sometimes, you can't do this though - your ground army may be preoccupied, or too far away, or terran unloaded his medivac on a cliff. But if you can do it, it's better to snipe the medivacs and run away, and let your ground army clean up. If you can't do that, just a-move, and don't target the medivacs, or you'll sustain more losses.
Queens should always target medivacs/warp prisms. Always. They are the only AA you have (unless you have mutas of course) that doesn't cost you (don't want to waste FG killing medivacs unless you can get a lot of them). You'll commonly hear casters say how terrible a zerg is for not targetting medivacs or prisms.
Take Suhosin vs Vines (the 2nd time they fight) GSL S3 Group C Set 11 http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67539/?set=11&lang=
Suhosin does not target the warp prism that was micro'ing immortals and warping in units, and you can hear the casters just exclaim how much of a retard he is, and really, that was like a diamond level mistake of him to not target the dropship, especially in a battle that goes on for like 60 seconds and was just a small skirmish, not a large scale battle where there was maybe too much going on for someone to notice.
Infestors... eh, it's up to you. Not really worth wasting FG on a single medivac unless you have lots of infestors with energy and you aren't attacking/defending anytime soon, it's just about energy management, and if you do want to kill the medivacs with infestors, throw down a few IT's first and then FG when they hatch (so you FG as little as possible and save as much energy as possible) or only FG mass medivac groups.
|
Thanks for the guide! Good stuff
|
very nice text ^_^
sidenote:another way to time your lair is purely on gas (cause the way i see it is that you should have x amount of gas at t time of the matchup) and if you have less you either screwed up or you needed to spend it (e.g. roaches)
|
I have a very different approach to ZvT, but I enjoyed reading this guide. I also have some replays of Roach/Ling/Baneling all-ins for you:
Stephano
Sheth
Violet
|
I just tested this out (14h/16p vs 15h/16p) with the following variables: 4 queen build, 14 drone scout and assume we lose it, 5 drone transfer to natural, 4 lings 2 gas imediately after 3rd and 4th queen pop out. Ended the game at 6:10. Here are the results:
14h/16p ------------- Total workers = 38 Total resource collected = 3,350 Collection rate = 630
15h/16p ------------- Total workers = 38 Total resource collected = 3,350 Collection rate = 637
|
very nice text ^_^
sidenote:another way to time your lair is purely on gas (cause the way i see it is that you should have x amount of gas at t time of the matchup) and if you have less you either screwed up or you needed to spend it (e.g. roaches)
Of course. At such timings, you should roughly be at the supplies listed. I could have used X:XX time as well, or drone counts, but I think supply count is the easiest to go by. I imagine it's what most people go by. I sometimes I use time for benchmarks as well. It really depends. In ZvP, for example, I use time instead of supply because Toss doesn't care what supply you get gas at, if you don't have speed or roaches by a certain point, you lose. The timings aren't as harsh in most scenarios though.
I have a very different approach to ZvT, but I enjoyed reading this guide. I also have some replays of Roach/Ling/Baneling all-ins for you:
Thanks. I would hope this guide lays down what is 'standard', and anything other than what I listed isn't standard. I also hope all of the all-ins out there, or at least the most standard ones, are listed as well.
Thanks for the reps, I'll add.
Juice - what is collection rate? At what time did you stop? How did you test it? I spent like 2 hours in YABOT and I couldn't really figure out which was better at all. But generally, a lot of 'inferior' builds will be ahead up until the 6:00 mark, at which point superior builds will just fly past. So you have to test it to at least 7:00, which is past 40 supply.
Going to edit the scouting section. You need to send that overlord in at 40 supply if the opponent FE'd, sending it at 30 is too early if they FE. The basic idea with scouting is just: 1. Make sure there isn't a naked rax where you can't tell if they Fast Expanded or took gas (ie lings see a naked rax), as it could be a 4-7 rax all-in and in which case you need to send that overlord in at 25. If no naked rax where you can't tell if they FE'd (FE builds will generally have an building by 20 supply, or you can tell when lings arrive, so it's just them hiding it, and hey you just make 2 spines and your good and arent too behind if they went FE since they didnt land it) 2. As long as they didn't FE, send in overlord at 30 (so it is like there in there base at 35, 40) 3. If they did FE, send it in at 40.
|
Amazing guide as always, much appreciated!
|
^ Thanks! I'm constantly adding on replays, I've added some about baneling busting. I've run into a lot of terrans recently going FE into 4 rax stim, so I've been reactively baneling busting and it's worked everytime so far.
|
finally i needed something like this... cheers the protoss one was helpful in making my game more solid.
|
Belial, I am curious, have you ever tried dropplay vs mech..? When you sacrifice the early overlord and see that he's clearly going mech, immediately getting two extractors, later adding on a third, lets you get about 20 +1 speedroaches ready to be dropped at the 10min mark. It does cost some economy, but more often than not I am capable of taking out the entire mech army right there, including a bunch of SCV's. Naturally this is stronger on a map where you can force his army out of position, pick up again and just hit the front. Seeing a Mech army run back and forth like a headless chicken always makes me happy
|
mass speedlings > mass thor?
|
thx for the input @ the ZergHelpMe thread bro
another question regarding mutas, this time specifically coined towards your great guide:
The 50+ part is the "standard" build-up, towards the midgame, as i understood, right right ? I just wanted to know, how do you play it out exactly with mutas in the mid. There are several approaches to the style, as far as i know. Some guys like to go double upgrades and rely on upgraded lings, until the mutas come out. Other players go for no upgrades at all, just bane-speed and bank all the gas to pump out 10 to 12 mutas at once, with 5 to 6 geysirs behind it.
My approach would be going for carapace and banes (+speed), and than bank my gas for the mutas. If im getting pushed by that time, i would defend with roaches (which i made b4 to take a 3rd against reactor hellions) and banes, to hold what comes and than go for a lower muta count. After that, keep him pinned, until im maxed on lings/banes and try to bust and/or keep him busy, while i expand and tech up towards hive.
It just doesnt feel "right", when i go for mutas and than go for an infestation pit, because i couldve gone for it straight anyways. I almost feel obligated to bust him and try to break through, skip on upgrades and play very "all-inny", as far as someone can say that about 3 to 4 base play. As i read your guide, i suppose this feeling is just wrong, cause it seems that its quite possible to tech up behind mutas, as long as you keep your flock together and dont spend too much gas on them. But where do you squeeze in your ground upgrades (beside +1 carapace), since when you want to go for hive play, you prolly cant skip on upgrades, as long as you dont want to bust him in the mid, am i right ?!
On a sidenote: What do you think about flyer upgrades regarding mutas, not broodlords ? And when do you take gas 5+6 ? Didnt found anything regarding these topics in your guide or im just 2 stupid/blind to find the right section.
hopefully you get my thoughts, since english isnt my native language ! thx in advance, keep up the good work !
greetz
joeyB
|
you don't fool me Belial, you will never have the Black soulstone! but I liked your guide nonetheless, I felt it had great insight. But the Black Soulstone will never be yours!
|
Don't listen to any of this. He is the Lord of Lies!!!
|
On May 30 2012 01:20 Blasterion wrote: you don't fool me Belial, you will never have the Black soulstone! but I liked your guide nonetheless, I felt it had great insight. But the Black Soulstone will never be yours!
:D love this comment
|
Belial, I am curious, have you ever tried dropplay vs mech..? When you sacrifice the early overlord and see that he's clearly going mech, immediately getting two extractors, later adding on a third, lets you get about 20 +1 speedroaches ready to be dropped at the 10min mark. It does cost some economy, but more often than not I am capable of taking out the entire mech army right there, including a bunch of SCV's. Naturally this is stronger on a map where you can force his army out of position, pick up again and just hit the front. Seeing a Mech army run back and forth like a headless chicken always makes me happy
I have tried it. I describe it in my guide, although not explicitly. I talk about using roach aggression against mech - you can go for nydus, drops, multi-pronged attacks, burrow move, roach/bane, roach/infestor, upgraded roaches.
Personally, I don't think roach drops is a good idea - you generally want to tech quicker against mech (as long as you rule out 2 base all-in, if he's doing that, you are going to be defensive anyways), and drop tech limits that. Furthermore, mech is going to be turtling on 3 bases - why would you drop attack a mech player who is turtling, has no plans to push out anytime soon, and has his army all nearby? Now, roach aggression can be successful, but I've never had a problem using just plain roach aggression.
If you use roach drops, try re-watching your replays and see if you really needed the roach aggression. Maybe a simple a-move would have won the game.
But that's just my personal style of play, too. I know roach aggression can be very effective, but I'm a very macro oriented player. Going for any sort of mass roach aggression in general, is quite all-in if it doesn't work, so I tend not to do such aggression unless I know for sure it will work (terran doesn't make enough tanks, too many thors, too many hellions, he's making banshees/ravens too early off of 2 base).
mass speedlings > mass thor?
No. Especially with hellions, tanks, or worst of all, repair.
|
On May 30 2012 01:18 joeyBanana wrote:thx for the input @ the ZergHelpMe thread bro another question regarding mutas, this time specifically coined towards your great guide: The 50+ part is the "standard" build-up, towards the midgame, as i understood, right right ? I just wanted to know, how do you play it out exactly with mutas in the mid. There are several approaches to the style, as far as i know. Some guys like to go double upgrades and rely on upgraded lings, until the mutas come out. Other players go for no upgrades at all, just bane-speed and bank all the gas to pump out 10 to 12 mutas at once, with 5 to 6 geysirs behind it. My approach would be going for carapace and banes (+speed), and than bank my gas for the mutas. If im getting pushed by that time, i would defend with roaches (which i made b4 to take a 3rd against reactor hellions) and banes, to hold what comes and than go for a lower muta count. After that, keep him pinned, until im maxed on lings/banes and try to bust and/or keep him busy, while i expand and tech up towards hive. It just doesnt feel "right", when i go for mutas and than go for an infestation pit, because i couldve gone for it straight anyways. I almost feel obligated to bust him and try to break through, skip on upgrades and play very "all-inny", as far as someone can say that about 3 to 4 base play. As i read your guide, i suppose this feeling is just wrong, cause it seems that its quite possible to tech up behind mutas, as long as you keep your flock together and dont spend too much gas on them. But where do you squeeze in your ground upgrades (beside +1 carapace), since when you want to go for hive play, you prolly cant skip on upgrades, as long as you dont want to bust him in the mid, am i right ?! On a sidenote: What do you think about flyer upgrades regarding mutas, not broodlords ? And when do you take gas 5+6 ? Didnt found anything regarding these topics in your guide or im just 2 stupid/blind to find the right section. hopefully you get my thoughts, since english isnt my native language ! thx in advance, keep up the good work ! greetz joeyB
Well I leave up how to play mutas, up to you. This guide just talks about how the game is played by everyone at the higher levels, it doesn't necessarily give everything away. I try to go as in-depth as I can though.
As long as you aren't unnecessarily losing mutas too much, you should be fine. Once you reach whatever muta count you desire (10, or 25, or just somewhere like 15), you tech up. You should of course, always be expanding, so by now you are on at least 4-5 bases. Since you are not building any more mutas, all that gas goes purely into teching up.
You still can't lose your mutas though, because while teching to hive tech units, you are still vulnerable, so you need to keep your muta count intact. If you ever lose too many mutas, terran will just push out. Once your BL or ultra tech is out, you just slowly bleed supply away, maybe sending in some lings to try to snipe a tank, or lose a couple mutas sniping well worthy research buildlings. Dont lose so many mutas that you force T to move out (you want to be the aggressor, and with a pure bl army or ultra army, not to be defensive).
If you lose mutas, you are forced to remake them because then terran can push out and win the battle, so you have a problem here where instead of teching up, you are remaking mutas. So you need to be careful with them still.
I generally get infestation pit and 2nd evo when I have my 4th taken, or about 20 mutas.
For muta upgrades, I generally go for carapace because it's better for broodlords, as well as for marine vs muta. Like DRG, I try to engage small groups of marines when I know I can beat them with minimal losses, and try to use micro in a way to engage them wall (ball up so he can't kill the mutas).
Just check out the replay section. I'll try to find more vods of muta play as well.
|
Great guide thanks for taking the time to put this together, nice to have something to sit down and read when im having trouble. The early scouting section is great, its really frustrating trying to learn this matchup with terran having so many random all ins and pressure builds that can randomly kill me, hopefully having it all laid out in front of me can help me get my head together.
|
Don't be too worried about him not floating down an expo - yes, it maybe built, but quite simply, he's not mining from another base, so you making a baneling nest and evo and even spores and a couple of precautionary lings, you will be ahead economically because you are actually mining from 2 bases.
Terran all ins (besides gasless mass rax) are generally very frail, and take a long time to come out, so as long as you can rule out gasless mass rax (factory or reactor or tech lab at the wall-in, him ever taking gas if you can possibly see it, an expansion made possibly), you are basically safe to power to 40 supply and then start asking questions about 1 base play. At 40 supply is when expansion builds tend to exactly throw down weird stuff too (FE into banshees, FE into some sort of timing stim drop, bfh) as well.
And marines can't really deny scouting either - the presence of marines themselves gives a lot away. Back a long time ago, it was confusing because everyone all-inned, everything was OP at the time, and no one made hellions except for all-ins and they made them really late anyways so even if they went hellions they still made lots of marines.
Thors because of auto repair target priority and roach ranged was 3, although you can hold thors easily without roaches, it definitely limited your options, roaches vs hellions because of queen range and roach range, spore re-root time sucking so you needed at least 2 spores for a single banshee, stim coming wayyyy quicker, siege tanks doing massive damage to all armor types, lost temple's cliff by the natural - omg just watch some of nestea vs MKP finals on ST, it was obviously broken as hell.
A lot of problems were also solved by the metagame. Back then, we literally saw zergs go 14/14 in ZvT because people thought 2 rax 'autowon' against hatch first, but now we know hatch first is the safest opener against it, and keep mining gas and get lair with the next100 at about 28 supply because... i dont know why. We were all just stupid back then. I guess with 3 range roaches, stim coming so fast meaning you NEEDED bane speed asap, and all the cliff/air abuse crap meaning only mutas could deal with it, there wasn't any choice but to rush lair.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On June 02 2012 07:56 Belial88 wrote: Don't be too worried about him not floating down an expo - yes, it maybe built, but quite simply, he's not mining from another base, so you making a baneling nest and evo and even spores and a couple of precautionary lings, you will be ahead economically because you are actually mining from 2 bases.
Terran all ins (besides gasless mass rax) are generally very frail, and take a long time to come out, so as long as you can rule out gasless mass rax (factory or reactor or tech lab at the wall-in, him ever taking gas if you can possibly see it, an expansion made possibly), you are basically safe to power to 40 supply and then start asking questions about 1 base play. At 40 supply is when expansion builds tend to exactly throw down weird stuff too (FE into banshees, FE into some sort of timing stim drop, bfh) as well.
And marines can't really deny scouting either - the presence of marines themselves gives a lot away. Back a long time ago, it was confusing because everyone all-inned, everything was OP at the time, and no one made hellions except for all-ins and they made them really late anyways so even if they went hellions they still made lots of marines.
Thors because of auto repair target priority and roach ranged was 3, although you can hold thors easily without roaches, it definitely limited your options, roaches vs hellions because of queen range and roach range, spore re-root time sucking so you needed at least 2 spores for a single banshee, stim coming wayyyy quicker, siege tanks doing massive damage to all armor types, lost temple's cliff by the natural - omg just watch some of nestea vs MKP finals on ST, it was obviously broken as hell.
A lot of problems were also solved by the metagame. Back then, we literally saw zergs go 14/14 in ZvT because people thought 2 rax 'autowon' against hatch first, but now we know hatch first is the safest opener against it, and keep mining gas and get lair with the next100 at about 28 supply because... i dont know why. We were all just stupid back then. I guess with 3 range roaches, stim coming so fast meaning you NEEDED bane speed asap, and all the cliff/air abuse crap meaning only mutas could deal with it, there wasn't any choice but to rush lair. Hey thanks for the response i appreciate it, looking over replays this morning i feel like im making progress with the early game, im going to have a T friend just go through games with me and help me figure it all out. Watching replays im seeing a lot of things that were just silly losses where building a spore, not being supply blocked or larva for a round of lings would have saved me, but my scouting was off or i wasn't paying attention, so i feel with practice it will all be resolved with experience.
Ive never been very good always plat/diamond level and looking back to beta its amazing that terran ever dropped a game, the original siege tank damage thorship and all the cheese that was made possible by rax before depot was insane, i remember just having those pulling hair out of my head moments on all the stupid all ins that i took on awful maps like steppes, close position metal. its insane how far the game has come since then with the map pool, balance changes and players improving pushing the metagame, Z has a lot to be happy about so i will continue to learn and figure this all out
|
Belail you are great thank you very much.
|
Thanks as always for your great work.
|
Hello there
I'm having a lot of troubles against terrans doing fast triple CC.
They got so huge macro that i can't win. Its like a macro-cheese. I would like to punish them with a violet push, but i dont see how i could be sure its a fast third, and that a violet push will win. And i dont like to all in blindly. Currently, i'm doing the DRG opener, with 7 roach push when i'm at 28 supply. But i never do all in behind this push, cause just dont know what if the terran doing. Transionning on tanks ? Building a third CC ?
Maybe i should just sack an overlord, but what would be the timing ?
Thanks for your guide !
|
^ The 7 roach push @28 supply is a little outdated these days. Terran just needs to lift off, make 2 bunkers, make marauders, or siege tanks, and you are really far behind if you don't seriously kill off terran with it. It kind of needs a quick gas taken, as in you open gas, which may be suspicious too (unless you don't plan to streaming in speedling reinforcements).
A great way to punish fast third, is the recent roach/bane all-in that we see symbol do a lot of, and a lot of others zergs doing. Drg, et cetera. It's in the thread and all-in section. Sac your overlord a little earlier at 30s, and hopefully you see the fast third if they did so.
Otherwise, as I say in the guide, punish it with either lots of aggression after getting your 3 base (or just 2 even, like ling/bane/muta and dont take your third, but make a macro hatch instead, or just take the third but dont drone it up, just use for production), or tech up quickly (make only 8-12 mutas, or just go infestor style).
There will be a strong ~160+ supply push from Terran off 3 base, so you can also just plan to meet it head on with superior posturing. If you have good creep spread, you can get a really good engagement (think of zerg units as balanced around having no creep around).
If you are doing the DRG opener, just make more speedlings if your pressure is doing good, or drone up if it isn't. Your pressure is your scouting o_o He can't exactly start making tanks when your roaches are already in his base.
You seem a little too worried about what terran is doing. Don't worry so much, terran units are really fragile, you really don't need to know what they are doing. Seeing Terran's expansion is generally very easy, they will have it on the low ground, a bunker, and if they don't it's clearly suspicious and you will make the decisions at 40 supply to get evo/bane nest, but once you know he expanded, just take your third ~40, and make a bane nest/evo at ~50, maybe even 2 spores and a few banes. use your overseer to decide if you can drone up hardcore or not. If he makes hellions, he's likely not doing a marine/marauder off 2 base so you can probably completely drone up your 3 bases, if he made hellions after FE he could be going banshees so get ready for that (the recent bomber style FE reactor hellion into banshee into fast third opener thats really, really popular), if you cant tell whats going on, he could be dropping you so get like 4 banes at 50+ supply.
It's being super greedy, that can be hard to really figure out, but you shouldn't worry about that unless your really high level and know what you are doing. It's not that big of an economic hit to have to make an evo and baneling nest at 40, or 2 spores.
But yea, it's obvious choices if they go fast third: 1. Tech quicker 2. Aggression with ling/bane/muta by making units instead of drones for your third 3. roach/bane all-in if your lucky enough to see a fast third with your overlord.
|
Nice guide. I am gonna bookmark this even I am a Terran player!! Thanks for your effort ^ ^
|
Awesome guide was just wondering if you could also put timings as part of the guide Thanks
|
^ i did put timings in the guide. What exactly do you mean? I talk about being prepared against FE banshee, 1 base play, et cetera. If you get what you need to defend, at the timings I list, you should be fine (40 bane/evo against 1 base play, 45 bane against FE into 4 rax, 50 bane/evo against anything else from expand, roach warren ~40 against hellion play).
|
I have a small question. I loose a lot to terran doing fast 3rd in their base. I think its like auto-win for terran if the zerg doesnt punish it.
How does a zerg know the terran is doing fast 3rd ? Scouting at 6:00 doesnt give enought informations, right ?
|
On June 08 2012 01:29 Insoleet wrote: I have a small question. I loose a lot to terran doing fast 3rd in their base. I think its like auto-win for terran if the zerg doesnt punish it.
How does a zerg know the terran is doing fast 3rd ? Scouting at 6:00 doesnt give enought informations, right ?
Scouting at 6 minute gives enough information, the terran will start his 3 cc (macro cc) between 5:00-6:00. And keep in mind that a CC cost 400 minerals that's a lot of money that can't be spent in units so you should easily be able to spot a terran going for a hard macro style. If you get your overlord shut down before it can scout the terran base just poke with a ling and you should be able to get enough hint to conclude the terran is going for a fast 3base.
That's my platinum answer but you are probably willing to have a better answer from belial.
|
Hey Belial, I was wondering if you could add something to the OP that elaborates a little more on how to do the transitions between infestor style midgame play and muta style midgame play. For instance the openers for a muta-oriented build off 2 bases is significantly different than the infestor-style of building up to 44 supply and then diverging into taking a third and massing ling/bane/festor with double upgrades.
I've been using the infestor-style of play and now that I have the speed and feel of zvt a little more down (thanks to your guides!) I'd like to experiment and learn how to use the more pro-active and aggressive muta/bane/ling style. Your guide does touch on how to use the mutas and such but how to obtain proper muta timing, bane nest timing and lair timing is a bit vague. I also have understood from talking to friends in high masters and GM that the evo timings are quite different depending on the two styles and getting gas is also different.
More extensive replays covering different styles would also be very appreciated.
|
^ its all in the guide. It intentionally vague because there's nott really a right or wrong, I mean literally replace infestation pit with spire, and 2nd evo with baneling nest. There's replays up of me and pro players using mutas as well. Its up to you how much econ you want to cut to get them out quicker, but it seems most ros going mutas these days do them very, very late, going third before lair much like going infestoor style, with the only difference being 2nd evo being a banelling nest (consequently you get the 2nd evo much llater) and spire instead of infestation.
|
^ Ok I'll keep messing around with it. I just feel kind of "lost" when I try to follow the same build I use with infestor openings and try to place a spire on instead. It feels like I'm missing a muta window or something when I get there and they already have defenses set up practically every game.
Like I get up to 44-52 and suddenly I have no real idea what to do and I start doing weird things that aren't quite the same every game.
Oh, also how do you prefer to play vs a super-fast 3 CC build that T have been using?
|
Oh, also how do you prefer to play vs a super-fast 3 CC build that T have been using?
I address this a few times in the guide.
First off, I say that roach/bane all-in is an autowin against an unprepared fast third (if not autowin against even a prepared fast third terran).
Secondly, I say you can adjust your play against fast third by being aggressive, or by teching up quicker. In the game flow notes, I mention that zerg takes their third, then defends their third, and then drones up. If terran skips aggression in favor of a third, this allows the game to move on to the next part of the game - when zerg has map control and terran must turtle. You can choose to be hyper-aggressive (terran is being defensive for a reason), such as with ling/bane/muta max, or you can tech up quicker, as terran's 3 base push before your hive tech is coming soon, and you can be better prepared against it.
Personally, I like to make lots of mutas in ZvT, playing that standard style, but when I see terran go fast third and isn't being aggressive, allowing me to kill off his armies, then I'll generally throw down that infestation pit and start teching.
Like I get up to 44-52 and suddenly I have no real idea what to do and I start doing weird things that aren't quite the same every game.
Around 40 supply, you need to throw down your evo/bane if terran is still on 1 base. If Terran expanded, then you need to take your third at 40 supply, 40-45 maybe depending on how you like to take it (standard really seems to be 40). From there, you can either drone up your 3 bases and take lair as late aas 70 supply, or if you think terran is going to be aggressive (or if you want to be aggressive earlier on) you can go lair around 50-60 instead of 60-70.
It really depends what terran is doing. If terran is going to do pressure with, say, stim timing, from a FE 4 rax (or 1 rax FE into 4 rax total), you will need that baneling nest down at ~40, but you still are always safe to take that third at 40 supply. If terran went something like reactor hellion expand, you may be denied from taking a third base and instead have to make that third hatchery a macro hatch, which is whatever. But unless terran went reactor hellion and you can't get creep out to your third to protect it from hellions with queens, you can really drone up to about 60. If terran is making marauders/has no factory, you may want to cut drones in favor of lair (for bane speed, quicker muta/infestor) and army.
You really got to be a little more specific with what you have problems with. Just watch my standard ZvT replays that I have listed of myself playing to see how I play it, and what I'm looking for in my first person view.
|
Thanks for your replies Belial, you're really helping me address specific issues in my play. I'm right on the cusp where I am being pit against top8 diamond and low masters players with my MMR even though I'm still in plat and I'm trying to refine my play up to that level where I can really start belonging in those upper leagues. I'm going over all your "standard" labeled replays now.
*Edit* Perhaps I should not have just said I was playing vs them due to my MMR. I'm actually managing about a 50% winrate against the higher leaguers.
|
^ The system right now pits you against a wide range of players. This was a change that was to be implemented, then was scrapped, but then re-done and has now been implemented. Just because you are playing masters, does not mean you are masters level. it means the system is simply testing you out against much higher and lower ranges than before, to shorten match-making searches and provide for more variety in play.
You are in plat because you belong in plat. Don't worry too much about your ranking, it really means nothing. But as day9 has said, you are in the league you belong in. If you are truly diamond material, you'll be in diamond. A large portion of people in diamond aren't really supposed to be in diamond anyways, but the system doesn't want to promote/demote people based on the results of just 1-3 games.
Just truck along, if you are platinum you are doing fine. Don't worry about being greedy at the lower levels, I'd recommend stick with a quicker lair style of taking that third before lair but only droning up the 2 bases then getting a lair, instead of completely droning up 3 bases then lair. You'll recognize soon enough how much greedier you can be, what you need to identify to allow you to be greedier, and macro opponents giving you trouble because you aren't greedy enough. At your level, really work out on smoothing out those supply blocks and idle larva, and scouting just the basics (did he expand? okay. evo and bane nest at 50, unless I can somehow scout to make sure I can delay them).
|
Belial, I've come with another question because I've encountered an all-in build not covered in your guide. This guy was a diamond Terran who used a sort of fast 2 factory with a few hellions as an opener. He shows me just enough hellions so I think its a normal hellion expand. I know I probably did a bad thing by going for the Stephano-style roach/bane/ling push but I'm asking not to focus on that and more the build the T did since I don't see it covered like.. anywhere.
Essentially what he did was get 2 facts, tech lab on both and then tech lab on his rax. He then showed me 4 hellions and acted like a normal hellion expand, but then he builds a lot of mauraders, 3 thors and a bunch more hellions. After my attack utterly fails to do any damage to his push (again, ignore than I'm a moron and blindly made a push against someone who ended up doing a 2gas 1 base build), he pulls a buttload of scvs for repairing his thors and hellions. He continues to reinforce his push with mauraders and hellions as he makes his way across the map. Had I not made a push to begin with, I think he would've arrived at my base somewhere around the 9 minute mark.
How on earth do you hold this? mass hellions crushes lings and thor/maurader was extremely effective against roaches and had the main battle been at the front of my base, I'm sure the spines would not have faired well either. Also the sheer amount of scvs he brought with him made it almost impossible to bring the thors down, and he surrounded the mech so that any auto-attack just bugged out because of the scvs making a barrier around them.
Replay Zv1-base Mech all-in
|
^ Your overlord scout routes are weird.
Learn how far you can get away with your initial overlord on each map. It's okay if you lose your first overlord in a few games the first time you see on each map, or watch a pro ZvT on each map and see where they send their overlords, or just see how far you can get your overlord by the timing marines come out, which was 3:18 in this game (so realistically a little longer due to travel time and you can take a few shots on your overlord if its a really good spot and its okay if he doesnt build buildings around it, like if its watching the entrance to his base to monitor army movement).
On Daybreak, you should send your overlord to like terrans natural gas, and then along the back of the map, and then in that space behind the natural between his 2 bases. It's perfect to see expo timing, if he's building an expo at natural or at the cliff or in his main by his CC, as well as poke to see what's at his wall-in and get back before 2-3 marines can kill it in time.
So that right there is weird, now you can't tell really if T expanded or not.
make your overlord at 26, not 25. You made your overlord too early there. Kind of hurts.
Because you didn't move your initial overlord int he right spot, you have no idea if he expanded or not. Really, i can say that's the sole reason you lost, bad overlord placement. But even then, you still could have known.
When your initial lings arrived at his base, you should have thought it was weird a single hellion attacked your lings. You NEVER see hellions that early. Have you EVER seen a hellion that early? I'm sure you play a lot of games, and every single game, you make lings when your pool pops, and see terran's wall-off. This must have been the first time you ever ran into a hellion with your initial lings. Right? Don't you normally have it where you lings run up, and see the reactor factory churning?
So right then and there you should be saying "whoa wtf how does he have a hellion that fast?"
Secondly, you should be asking "why is there only one hellion instead of 2?"
Alarm bells should be going off now. Personally, assuming I did bad overlord placement like you did, if I saw a single hellion like that, so quickly, and a rax at the wall-off still, I would have assumed a banshee rush because there is no add-on at the rax so he isn't going reactor hellion, and a single hellion that quick means he made a quick factory. In this case, the guy made a single hellion, then add-ons, but I would have guessed a single hellion out of a factory he made and then a starport. Either way, you should be thinking "WTF IS GOING ON?!" because you only see 1 hellion and a rax at the front. Immediately, you would have alarm bells going off clueing you in to prepare for 1 base play.
You are also at 30 supply. In my guide, I specifically state, if you do not explicitly see an expansion, you need to sac the overlord then and there, so by 40 supply you see what's up. You would have seen he clearly had no expansion, he only had 1 marine. Remember - if he's making lots of hellions, then it means no marines. No marines, means you get to see everything. You would have seen his entire base and saw exactly what the guy was doing - double gas, 2 factories. Double gas means either 1 base starport (banshee 95% of the time, bfh drop 5% generally) OR double factory mass hellions.
Making a single spine against a single hellion is a weird response. You have 5 range boss queens now. Don't make a spine unless it's clearly reactor hellion (you see reactor hellion at wall off, hellion isnt that quick, and it's 2 by 2 hellions, not a single hellion super fast), and even then, people prefer to use 4 queens these days against hellions (although reactor hellion does force you to make a macro hatch instead of third still, no idea why T dont use the build anymore, whatever). You also went super, super fast speed. Either take that gas later, at about 22-28 supply, or dont make a spine.
Why are you making a spine if you are planning to all-in anyways. That's weird. I get you need something against hellion pressure,but you clearly see he isn't doing reactor hellion, so why did you make a spine. I guess you need a spine, but you should have made a single spine instead of a third queen, or make 1-2 extra queens right away and no spine. you also make the queen before roach warren, that delays the roach warren by a good 5 seconds there.
If you are doing a weird build like roach/bane all-in, I'd recomend you put the gases in separate bases so a single scan doesnt reveal 100% what you are doing when terran sees you have 2 geysers actively mining at ~35 supply when most zergs dont get more than 1 gas until 50+ supply, and usually remove from the single gas they have until at least the 40's anyways.
Your overlord sac was in a terrible spot. Terran isn't protoss, they dont put buildings in a weird spot like that. A starport, 7 rax, or 2 factories, aren't going to be located behind terran's mineral line. they are going to be inside his base somewhere. You should have had that overlord by that little light rectangle around the middle instead of the bottom (i hope that makes sense, just look at the map, youll see the square of light). Why would you send your overlord from such a weird spot. You aren't going to see anything going in that way -_-
And if you had your initial overlord in a proper spot, you would have said HOLY SHIT WHY IS THERE NO EXPO YET BY 50?!?! FUCK! IM DEAD! MAKE ALL THE SPINES AND LINGS! and you would have easily held but seriously. No expo by 30 supply means alarm bells should be going off, and they clearly didn't.
Oh. you just never sac an overlord. i dont get why you are showing me this replay. you dont even check to see for an expo, which would have told you everything you needed to know.
If you are all-inning, don't make a 3rd queen. use some common sense man. eliminate the body fat. I guess you do need something against hellions, but according to what you scout, there is only 1 hellion out on the map. i guess it's 'lucky' that you made a spine, but if you had scouted better you would have known to make that spine later. your build just doesnt make sense. You should have sent out a few lings too to see what was up, then when they are fried by 2+ hellions when terran clearly isn't going reactor hellion, should have set off more alarm bells.
5 overlords is WAY too many. Try 3.
Going for a roach/bane all-in only works if terran goes fast third, and maybe if he expanded. it will never work against a 1 base terran. You should have seen an expansion before committing to this all-in.... it's a strong all-in, but you still can't just do it blindly.
You always need to focus fire thors. If you had focus fired the thors, you would have won the battle, won the game right then and there. ezpz.
You clearly saw terran is 1 base all-inning. Cancel that fucking third.
WHy in the world did you make 2 evolution chambers when you are all-inning, and then when you realize terran is all-inning. You won't have 1/1 in time, they take nearly 3 minutes to research each. You gonna die in about 30 seconds.
Why are you making a lair, and a third, and 2 evo chambers, and drones, when terran is on 1 base. You need to learn to PANIC THE FUCK OUT!
You just never scout. As soon as you had speed you should always have the watch towers. if terran has hellions, then you learn what's up, and would have know he was 1 basing, and thus make a ton of defense and units.
I dont get why you just drone up and tech up and take a third when you saw terran push out with all his scvs, and thors. I guess you didnt even bother to check for an expo, but you clearly lack the gamesense to realize that when terran has 20 SCVs out on the map, and 3 thors, at the 9:00 mark, it's because he's all-inning, because no way in hell can you afford that if you expanded, and no way you are going to have 20 scvs out on the map in a normal game.
I get you are diamond, you aren't high level. But there is a LOT of weird shit going on in terran's end, and even with your complete lack of scouting and complete rejection of my guide on a metaphysical level, you saw enough weird shit to know that hey, weird shit is coming, PANIC AND MASS SPINES AND UNITS. Your all-in was weird and poorly performed too, but you should have realized oh shit terran had a ton of stuff taht is impossible to have after expanding and just really weird, I need to back up and mass defense.
Terrible baneling control. You need to hit the SCVs.... not thors. You could have easily held that push if you blew up the SCVs instead, and hung back a little longer before attacking. Why were you not throwing down 7 spines right now?
dont pull drones against blue flame hellions like that.
You basically lost to 2 thors at the 11:00 mark. That's just a reality of how off your macro was, and how off your scouting was. Until you learn to scout better, you need to take more precuations in your play - just go 2 base lair, and make a macro hatch and 2 spines at 40 supply and a baneling/evo at ~40 and take the towers and check for his natural and if he's being fishy make 2 extra queens, 2 spores, and some units until you figure out what's up or the expo is floated down.
Don't mean to be mean... but this would have been really easy to hold. it's a bad all-in that you don't see in the high levels because it just completely falls on it's face to good macro. At high level, anyone playing completely blind and assuming the Terran is playing standard, would have taken a third and lair by now, and then had a handful of speedlings to shoo away small numbers of hellions and when they saw there was no expo still they would have massed units (if not simply not take their third and expo).
Compare how much shit I have in my relpays and the vods listed, to what you had at 11:00. Also, you did an all-in and failed, generally if your all-in fails you lose the game.
supply block at 82/84 was bad, your all-in was kind of late. Your macro kind of falls apart after your all-in.
There's not much to this, dont mean to be mean. You need to sac an overlord at 30 if you see no expo still, your initial overlord needs to go to a better place, and you saw a lot of weird shit but never responded to it. could have done better execution with the roach/bane bust, and in particular, better baneling control. Just focus fire thors always with roaches, and never let banes blow up on thors, only on SCVs or marines. If you had done that, you would have won. There are million little things you could have done to win. After all is said and done though, you basically lost to just 2 thors at the 11:00 mark (2 hellions and a marauder dont do shit, especially at 11:00, and he would have won without the SCVs anyways).
Just learn to panic more. and it's weird to ask for help when your all-in fails.
|
Hello there
What is the counter to bio army with mass medivac ? Like MKP did to stephano in MLG. Its so cost effective, i cant manage to beat this...
|
Bio play is a timing attack, like I state in my guide. It tends to lose steam when Zerg gets really established on 3 bases with 70+ drones, but it will kill you if you try to go to 60+ drones after taking your third, like you can normally get away with in macro play or rine/tank.
You simply need to make enough ling/bane to hold off the initial marine/marauder/hellion/etc stim timing, and THEN drone up (and even if you hold it off, it doesnt necessarily mean you can just completely drone up since terran may have another army at home instead of having taken a third).
If you can hold the first push, and the more convincingly you hold it the better, you will be in a good position, and it's simply a matter of your tech - mutas or infestors - coming out that will swing the tide of the game in your favor.
Also, mutas are stronger against this bio play instead of infestors. With ling/bane support, 20+ mutas just shred bio as they have to stim and kite against the banelings and have no tanks to blast them apart with, as well as constantly killing his medivacs.
Here's a recent replay of me beating a bio push on ladder. It's pretty short, but you get the idea. I like to throw down a 2nd evo against bio play, since you aren't going to go hive annnytime soon against it.
http://drop.sc/201990
|
Added a section on 6 queen opening. Oddly enough, I haven't seen anyone put any sort of guide on it, so I made one. i guess, it's quite simple. added a VOD of drg doing it as best as I could (seems to be the most textbook of the games ive seen of people doing 6 queen, although the game turns out anything but).
|
Thanks, just what i needed ^_^
|
Do you really just stop using injects late game with BL/Infestor? I mean yes the army mix is very larva efficient, but you also need to make drones for spines/spores and lings to deal with drops and harass his expos. Do you just build a lot of extra macro hatches or something?
Also what do you think about getting early +1 carapace and rushing for +5 ultras on 3 bases, skipping infestor tech altogether? This is of course against a marine/tank bio player. The extra carapace upgrade will make marines do pretty much nothing should allow you to push him back quite a bit while you take your 4th and get BLs out.
|
You can do whatever you want. I don't think I said anything in the guide about it, but personally I make a queen for every hatch (backspace larva inject, wayyy more larva than other methods, and you can control the control issues), so I generally will have up to 6 queens on 5 base eventually, and then once I'm on bl/infestor, yea, I'll stop injecting because I'll have 7+ hatcheries with enough larva production to sustain me (even then, I'll usually inject at a forward hatch, and I often make macro hatches in very aggressive positions lategame so my ball of queens can just inject at it).
Also what do you think about getting early +1 carapace and rushing for +5 ultras on 3 bases, skipping infestor tech altogether? This is of course against a marine/tank bio player. The extra carapace upgrade will make marines do pretty much nothing should allow you to push him back quite a bit while you take your 4th and get BLs out.
I think you'll have a tough time against Terrans who simply push out at the 'wrong' time. He'll probably see you rushing hive so quickly, and take it as his queue to attack. Maybe if you research pathogen glands and reactively make infestors just in case he pushes before ultras pop, and on a really big map.
But you can get your ultras out in time if you just make a handful of infestors or 8-15 mutas for the 3 base push anyways, so why risk it? And you can take your fourth pretty much for free in ZvT, it's not contested. You don't really need anything particular to secure your fourth in ZvT. broodlords on 3 base isn't really a great idea though
|
I been planning on switching to Zerg. ZvP is pretty easy, I just 12min Roach Ling Max every game.
ZvZ I just Bling All-in. I hate this match up.
ZvT has been tricky. I usually only win once if Terran lets me macro and tech to infestors. Hopefully your guide will help me get a stable hold of ZvT.
|
ZvZ is pretty straightforward, you have a few options. Ling/bane all-ins just stop happening at higher levels because they aren't really that strong (although sometimes they can be good metagame-ish because people like to be greedy, but on ladder you should have a standard, safe build).
Just go: -10 drone scout Hatch First 15h/15p/17g (throw down reactive pool first instead if you see early pool, ie pool is done or green and near done, this is what i do, if you see 14/14 you are ahead, if you see hatch first just go 17g/17p and you'll be way ahead economically unless they blindly go 17g/17p which just never happens and is goofy...) or 15p/15h/17g, either are very safe conservative builds @100 gas speed (if opponent hasn't expanded when queens are like 10% done, or he doesnt have a drone at bottom clearly trying to expand, its a 1 base 14/14 ling/bane all-in, go bane before speed. or you can go speed first and just not inject, lots of ways to hold, but should be very easy, just go 2 queens first, then reactive lings to however many lings the opponent sends out initially, then make a spine in your main to walk to natural, very important to do that, then get baneling nest, or speed first if he is expanding). Take 1 drone off gas when speed is done - 26 Spine, Baneling Nest - 30+ make 6 lings if the opponent hasn't sent out any lings at all and forced you to make lings, go scout with 2-3 of them and leave 3-4 at home (id recommend you morph them into pre-emptive banes until you get to high masters and are quicker and react and scout better - really, just making 4 banes blindly would be good enough)
You can leave 3 on gas to get nest quicker, or take 2 off, but I find that just taking 1 off gas, for a total of 2 in gas, will lead to 50 gas coming at a timing where baneling nest will come soon enough to handle any ling or ling/bane all-in in time (only 1 in gas is susceptible).
ezpz. Ling/bane is a thing of the past. It's like trying to 4 gate in PvZ, it just doesn't happen anymore, if it does it should be easy to hold if you have a safe build order.
Glad you like the guide though.
|
This guide is overwhelming! Thank you for taking the time to pass on your experience.
~Spit
|
Hey Belial, I have a question regarding Terran Mech play. What shall I do when he opened Banshee but didn't do much of herrass and only keeps it with his army. (not only one but 3 or so) I can't deny the third without loosing tons of Roaches to Banshees. Should I make Mutas? But then he will push out with Thors which kill the Mutas quite fast. I hope you can help me.
|
I would recommend drone scouting, but not everyone does it and if you don’t want to do it, that’s fine. A drone scout is just good to see if Terran is doing anything odd. Since Terran can deny a drone scout, it's not something you are relying on, it's just something that helps.
I'm sorry but this is just bad advice, you should always drone scout (by that i mean when you're at 10 supply) because especialy in the lower leagues if you don't you're just gonna get proxy rax all the time. That actually saved me the other when i got to the terran base and saw nothing there : )
|
lol? How is this bad advice?
I recommend drone scouting, but at the time the guide was written, the standard in pro play was not to drone scout. I simply say it's up to you whether you want to drone scout or not, and that there is no right or wrong on it.
And scouting at 10 supply is WAY too early. No one drone scouts at 10.
Please, do not be so rude, you can drone scout at 13 to see a 2 rax in time before your pool pops to know to make lings or drones, and you don't have to drone scout to figure out someone is doing a 2 rax, it should be obvious when a 2 rax hits before your pool is done.
|
Thanks so much for your guides. I've especially appreciated the ZvP one.
In your "Playing the Midgame: Muta" section you mention:
quickly box over my banelings to make sure they hit his marines instead of tanks What does this mean? Just selecting a group and directing them past the tanks and then a-moving?
I'm hoping you find the time to clean this one up and give it the polish you have in your ZvP guide. Thanks again!
ps. when's the ZvZ guide going to be posted?
|
^ Thanks, I think... The guide is polished, let me know if you think anything else is unpolished.
I think the baneling advice is pretty clear. You box over them, you know, like you hit and hold left click, and then pull it, you create a box? So a-move or move-command your ling/bane, then quickly create that green box over your baneling as accurately as you can (it's not really improtant that it's even that accurate), and then move command the banes past his marines. No need to a-move them, they'll detonate on their own as marines shoot at them or tanks hit them. You can also right click them all onto a marine in a big pack of marines, or just a-move that box of banes once you are past the tanks. Personally, what I do, box over, grab the banes right before they all are about to splash into a tank or marauders, and then I move command or right click them (depending on accuracy and in-game factors i suppose) onto or towards the biggest clump of marines I see. Then, I'll create another box over half those banelings, and split them, if the terran is splitting.
But yes, you got it. box over banes, make sure they dont blow up on tanks.
|
Huh, interesting. I've just been keeping my lings and banes on different hotkeys, a-moving my zerglings and moving my banelings into the densest clump of marines I can find. (Or, vs Marine-Marauder, wrapping my zerglings around the bioball so it can't run away and just killing everything with banes)
|
In my humble opinion, the best way to micro lings and banes it to put them all in your main group while having an other group for banes only. This way you can a-move everything at once, but it's still very easy to select and move command the banes behind clumps of bio in the heat of the battle. You can add banes to your second group when you morph them (Stephano style, ctrl+click on eggs in the group selection).
I do the same with my infestors usually, this way I am sure they aren't lagging behind my army but I can't still quickly cast and fall back to protect them.
So in zvt my hotkeys in mid-game looks like : 1 - main army (lings-roach-infesters-banes) 2 - mutas 3 - banes 4 - infestors
Hope this help.
|
Huh, interesting. I've just been keeping my lings and banes on different hotkeys, a-moving my zerglings and moving my banelings into the densest clump of marines I can find. (Or, vs Marine-Marauder, wrapping my zerglings around the bioball so it can't run away and just killing everything with banes)
That's more than fine too. Just make sure that you micro your banes in some way so they don't just a-move into everything.
In my humble opinion, the best way to micro lings and banes it to put them all in your main group while having an other group for banes only. This way you can a-move everything at once, but it's still very easy to select and move command the banes behind clumps of bio in the heat of the battle. You can add banes to your second group when you morph them (Stephano style, ctrl+click on eggs in the group selection).
I do that in the early game, before infestors pop out, actually. I don't ever keep infestors with my main army though.
|
I never thought of keeping lings and banes on the same hotkey! I'm really paranoid about a-moving banes: I even move-command them across the map. Is this bad?
Also, a bit off-topic, but thanks to your guide on 6 pool I was able to execute Belial's Floral Arrangement of Death today to destroy a 6-pool after going 15 hatch! Thank you for all the wisdom you bring to the community!
|
^ Post the rep in my zvz 6 pool thread! There's not enough examples in there from people who've used the guide!
|
It's pretty low-level, but I've posted it anyway. If you deem my execution too sloppy to be worth learning from, which it almost certainly is, I will not be offended
|
With regards to the 6 queen opener against a 1 rax expo into hellions, how can I minimize damage if the terran decides to derp into my main and roast drones?
|
IDK if anyone else mentioned this, but if you continue to get ranged upgrades you can use infested terrans to great effect vs mech (fungal doesn't really come into play vs mech that much so might use the energy for something).
I've managed to be extremely roach-light when droning my 4th because 5+ infestors (which you should have by that time IMO) surrounding a mech army with ITs helps a lot more than most people think.
|
My personal experience, in dealing with mech, going for infestors with neural is so good! Together with Tunneling claw roaches! I just make sure to engage at the middle of the map. The more closer the mech army is to your base, the more it is difficult.
|
With regards to the 6 queen opener against a 1 rax expo into hellions, how can I minimize damage if the terran decides to derp into my main and roast drones?
I actually make about 20 lings at 60+ supply, and star the 2xEvo then too (and when they are done, start 2 spores). I also sometimes make a spine in my natural, and another at my third, at this same time. Don't keep doing the same build if terran keeps roasting drones. i was finding I was having trouble with this too so I had to make some drastic changes. 20 lings at 60+ really goes a long way. If you don't have to pull drones or lose any, you can get those ultras out soooo fast...
IDK if anyone else mentioned this, but if you continue to get ranged upgrades you can use infested terrans to great effect vs mech (fungal doesn't really come into play vs mech that much so might use the energy for something).
I've managed to be extremely roach-light when droning my 4th because 5+ infestors (which you should have by that time IMO) surrounding a mech army with ITs helps a lot more than most people think.
I usually get +3 missile in all 3 match-ups now after I've gotten 3/3.
IT is pretty awesome against mech. These days I don't get roach speed anymore or even any roaches against mech, I'll get more spines, rely on queen/infestor/ling, and if I see Terran go for a third I'll just go hive that much quicker.
Never really got NP to work well unless I'm going with an Ultra based army. I don't really bother to get tunneling claws though. ever.
|
The thing I'm having trouble with in this matchup is a strong mid game marine/medivac/tank push where the Terran sieges up just off my creep and gradually slow pushes forward without ever unsieging all the tanks.
I almost always go for the 6 queen, fast third into infestor play, and my problem is figuring out how to engage this army. Even when I stop the push I must be doing it wrong because I lose way too much to the tanks sieged in the back and have trouble handling his next push or followup drops and eventually get overwhelmed.
I know marine tank is about as standard as it gets in ZvT, but it's really the only style I have a ton of trouble with in this matchup. Any tips on how to handle it? (I'm platinum, btw)
|
You should have ultras in time if you go infestor first, and f you go mutas, well, you'll just have to do enough damage to slow down terran enough so you get ultras in time.
If you are meeting this army without ultras, then your macro may be off. You should morph hive as soon as infestation pit is done, and really can't lose any drones or be forced to split drones.
Post a rep, it likely sounds like macro. I thought the same thing for a long time, then I realized I was just taking too much economic damage to early hellions. So now I get 1-2 spines up around 55, and make 20 lings at 60+, then get 2-3 spores at 70+.
Here's a replay where I think I did a pretty good job. Terran pushed out earlier than he should have, so I was able to crush him with a good split. You really should never engage terran, or anyone for that matter, without at least setting up a flank or attack from multiple angles:
http://drop.sc/244246
Don't underestimate macro.
|
On August 13 2012 19:24 achristes wrote: IDK if anyone else mentioned this, but if you continue to get ranged upgrades you can use infested terrans to great effect vs mech (fungal doesn't really come into play vs mech that much so might use the energy for something).
I've managed to be extremely roach-light when droning my 4th because 5+ infestors (which you should have by that time IMO) surrounding a mech army with ITs helps a lot more than most people think.
Against mech, I stop upgrading carapace and go for double attack upgrades, for exactly this reason.
|
^ That's a good idea. I remember being vehemently opposed to carapace upgrades vs mech, but recently I've just got into such a habit of melee/carapace double evo in all 3 match-ups (useful for broodlings and ultras, but mech will 1 shot broodlings so that doesnt matter, and i always go ultras only as a tech switch after broods, and only if he has mass ravens which takes a long time, so i have more than enough time for that, plus +2 ultra armor is good enough if im tech switching, for the time being).
|
The Mech section seems a little out of date with your latest forum advice, which mentions a couple of tactics the guide doesn't: Namely, 10-20 roaches into a fast hive, and Ultra + NP as an army composition. Would really like to see some more stuff vs. Mech, as my friend plays Mech and I play against him a lot Might be more interesting if I have some more weapons to throw at him.
That being said, I do love the guide, but you seem like the kind of guy who can handle criticism on a great piece of work to make it even better.
|
^ I really need a good replay of using ultras against mech. So far, the only time I really use ultras against mech, or seen it used against it, and the utlras would have been a better choice than broodlords, is if the mech player is massing ravens, to which I have a replay on how to deal with mass ravens already. I'll clean it up about the roaches though.
|
Wow, you work fast! Thanks! Will have to try the Fast Hive style vs. my friend.
|
Is having some excess larva and not enough money to spend larva ASAP on drones/lings a common issue during the period when you go for your queens 5-6+ 1-2 spines+evo chambers? That's why I feel somewhat uncomfortable when doing the 6-queen-opening
|
I love you belial <3 have my babiez!
|
On September 03 2012 05:06 TwilightRain wrote: Is having some excess larva and not enough money to spend larva ASAP on drones/lings a common issue during the period when you go for your queens 5-6+ 1-2 spines+evo chambers? That's why I feel somewhat uncomfortable when doing the 6-queen-opening
I'm having the same problem, even without the spines.
|
For those wondering, Belial is banned, hence unable to ever respond to this thread and all his others again.
|
lol why is he banned? Is he overzealous in contributing in the strategy community?
|
Italy12246 Posts
From the ABL:
Belial88 was just banned by semioldguy.
That account was created on 2010-11-07 17:13:15 and had 4302 posts.
Reason: You make a huge post to bash someone and combined with your seemingly endless moderation history, it appears you do not learn from your warnings and bans. Your last chance has been used. Goodbye.
|
Wow... I'm... Amazed.... Like, I get that apparently he hasen't been purely good, but even so, you can't deny that he has been a HUGE resource for all TL zergs... Obviously, that should not make him immune to bans... But... But... We've lost one of our gurus ((
|
Really? REALLY? Belial is HONEST. Brutally honest. A huge post to BASH someone? I saw that post. That post, if the player had listened to it, would have been the most useful post he'd ever read on TL. Even him posting those long critiques of OTHER PLAYERS have made me a better player. I would have loved nothing better than to get one from him if I ever thought my play was imperfect.
Christ. That guy was probably the best poster TL had, the guy with the skills to know what he was talking about and the stones to say it straight-up, and this is how he gets treated. I would expect this in a lot of places, but not TL. TL knows the reality of competition. It's hard, and it's tough, and Belial knew that. He didn't pull his punches. After all, your ladder opponents sure as hell aren't going to.
I look forward to seeing another account pop up in the same style, in hope that Belial returns to us again. Because dammit, TL needs MORE PEOPLE LIKE HIM, NOT LESS.
I don't even blame the mod who banned him, because you can't let someone get away with forum rules, lest people point and say "But Belial did it!". But I wish the system were set up in such a way that Belial's actions were acceptable. Belial genuinely helped that Terran so much with his "bashing", or at least, provided the Terran with the material to help himself. Only when you realise how terrible you are can you really improve, and Belial was the best person at that that I have ever seen.
The strategy forum is worse for having lost him.
That is all.
|
On September 13 2012 21:56 Salivanth wrote: Really? REALLY? Belial is HONEST. Brutally honest. A huge post to BASH someone? I saw that post. That post, if the player had listened to it, would have been the most useful post he'd ever read on TL. Even him posting those long critiques of OTHER PLAYERS have made me a better player. I would have loved nothing better than to get one from him if I ever thought my play was imperfect.
Christ. That guy was probably the best poster TL had, the guy with the skills to know what he was talking about and the stones to say it straight-up, and this is how he gets treated. I would expect this in a lot of places, but not TL. TL knows the reality of competition. It's hard, and it's tough, and Belial knew that. He didn't pull his punches. After all, your ladder opponents sure as hell aren't going to.
I look forward to seeing another account pop up in the same style, in hope that Belial returns to us again. Because dammit, TL needs MORE PEOPLE LIKE HIM, NOT LESS.
I don't even blame the mod who banned him, because you can't let someone get away with forum rules, lest people point and say "But Belial did it!". But I wish the system were set up in such a way that Belial's actions were acceptable. Belial genuinely helped that Terran so much with his "bashing", or at least, provided the Terran with the material to help himself. Only when you realise how terrible you are can you really improve, and Belial was the best person at that that I have ever seen.
The strategy forum is worse for having lost him.
That is all.
The fact that he's made some good additions to the strategy forum doesn't mean that he can be an ass and not get banned.
|
|
Italy12246 Posts
I PM'd Semioldguy, and he told me he's been unbanned. Calm down
Also, it wasn't the post itself, rather then tone itself combined with his moderation history that caused the mods to pull the hammer. Definitely too harsh, but understandable when someone's posting history isn't particularly clean.
edit: to clarify, i had nothing to do with Belial being unbanned, he already had before my pm.
|
On September 14 2012 02:11 Teoita wrote:I PM'd Semioldguy, and he told me he's been unbanned. Calm down Also, it wasn't the post itself, rather then tone itself combined with his moderation history that caused the mods to pull the hammer. Definitely too harsh, but understandable when someone's posting history isn't particularly clean.
Aaah thanks !
|
Someone had made a thread about 'how to beat a-moving zerg' so I bit the bait.
Is having some excess larva and not enough money to spend larva ASAP on drones/lings a common issue during the period when you go for your queens 5-6+ 1-2 spines+evo chambers? That's why I feel somewhat uncomfortable when doing the 6-queen-opening
You could always just inject less and tumor more. Also, this has been something I've been addressing recently in my own play... and I find that the injects are necessary for enough larva ;/
But here's the BO I use, and DRG recently uses, and most zergs use: hatch first 16-17 pool 2 queens (2xinject, walk to front of nat ) 25 overlord 2 queens (they will pop a little after initial injects pop, its okay, use them to do 2nd round of injects, then walk to nat) 32-52 Third Hatch (standard timing seems to be ~45, right after you make that 2xInject round of drones. Some people elect to delay that huge round of drones to get the third quicker. It seems to me that taking it ~45 is best, but I'm not really sure). 2 queens (same thing)
so each of your first 3 rounds of injects are a bit staggered so creep can start going quicker. ~60 2xEvo and Spine to sim city nat to block hellions (you HAVE to do this, use hold position on 1-2 queens to block nat in!), 4 gas, possible a spine in third depending how many queens needed to block nat in.
|
On September 14 2012 08:08 Belial88 wrote:Someone had made a thread about 'how to beat a-moving zerg' so I bit the bait. Show nested quote +Is having some excess larva and not enough money to spend larva ASAP on drones/lings a common issue during the period when you go for your queens 5-6+ 1-2 spines+evo chambers? That's why I feel somewhat uncomfortable when doing the 6-queen-opening You could always just inject less and tumor more. Also, this has been something I've been addressing recently in my own play... and I find that the injects are necessary for enough larva ;/ But here's the BO I use, and DRG recently uses, and most zergs use: hatch first 16-17 pool 2 queens (2xinject, walk to front of nat ) 25 overlord 2 queens (they will pop a little after initial injects pop, its okay, use them to do 2nd round of injects, then walk to nat) 2 queens (same thing) so each of your first 3 rounds of injects are a bit staggered so creep can start going quicker. ~60 2xEvo and Spine to sim city nat to block hellions (you HAVE to do this, use hold position on 1-2 queens to block nat in!), 4 gas, possible a spine in third depending how many queens needed to block nat in.
Could you also add when to properly take the 3rd in that BO? And what(if) it depends on?
+ Ty for being awesome and active Belial.
|
is this guide still effective? considering how much the metagame has changed.
for example how do you scout 2 base hellion banshee pressure and what is the best way to react to it? Is fast third the answer? thanks i hope you can help me!
|
yes, this guide is still effective. despite the metagame having changed the way it's changed, it's still fundamentally played the exact same, in my opinion. i guess that's a bit broad, but basically:
- the build order is the same (get 2 queens + some more stuff for defense, that can either be speed or more queens or even just spines or roaches or whatever). Make a 3rd hatchery ~50 supply (nowadays a third vs 1 rax FE as opposed to a macro hatch vs reactor hellion). - although mutas are not nearly as popular as before, there are still essentially 2 ways to play the game, muta or infestor, fast hive. The guide describes how to play both styles, nothing has really changed in how either of these are played out still. - ultras are maybe more popular, but again, it's still the same - you want hive tech against a 3 base terran ~maxed out push, whether its broods or ultras isn't much different.
I mean all that's really changed is that infestors are more popular than mutas, but infestors has always been a viable build since destiny did his mass infestor stuff in zvt, and the 6 queen opener vs 1 rax FE, as people took quick thirds vs 1 rax FE sort of play back in the day too.
I'd say the biggest difference is the advent of the 6 queen opener, and I've added a section entirely on how to play the 6 queen opener.
Scouting 2 base hellion/banshee pressure is listed in the guide, and it's the same as it was 2 years ago. You need to sac an overlord at ~40 supply to see what terran is doing. If terran grabs 2 gas in his main before your queens are done, like when marine comes out about, it will most likely be hellion/banshee or at least a starport or double fact since it's a ton of gas, i mean you can kind of tell with an overlord sac...
Fast third should be the answer to terran taking his natural. If terran goes 1 rax FE, you should grab a third around 45 supply.
Chill man, it's all in the guide. Yes, it's all very up to date, I update all my guides every week, I add replays as certain games/strats happen to me on ladder, I often replace replays/vods with better reps/vods (ie more clear ones). The 6 queen guide and the 3 replays on 6 queen in the replay/vod section should all help you out. just gotta sac an overlord at 40, thats' a big deal, that and learning how to do 6 queen properly.
|
btw i saw some stephano zvts and he does somethingg quite interesting:4Q opening @25 supply he makes 2! ovies and then an ovie again at 33 (5 min gas 6 min 3rd+5thQ) seemed veery smooth (basicly the 5th Q is the only queen that creep spreads to the third and then stays there) (7min evos, gas goes: speed,+1/+1, lair)
|
why isn't this guy a mod yet?
|
^ Thanks, but I think you are probably talking about Blue status. Mod is a lot of work, like a job, I think that isn't so much based on your post quality or strategy knowledge or contribution, but more like if you are willing to do the work (liquipedia help comes to mind) or write articles (for example, monk writes a lot of the articles that get featured, he's not just a mod).
But as for why I am not blue status, it's because I've been a little too mean in my posts when going on about my opinion/take on the game or when analyzing replays. I've toned it down a lot and will be sure to tone it down more now on, but I probably would have been Blue a while ago. I also have a lengthy warn/ban history - I'm not a perfect poster, sometimes I've basically asked for warns/bans.
I've also never tried to become a model for the community in any way. I just contribute some stuff on the strat forum, I have a view of the game, and I post [H] replays when I lose a lot, so it's my way of giving back. I don't want to be one of those people that asks for help or the time of others, and then not give anything in return. I hope my guides and contributions have given back to those who've given valuable time to help me out, especially when I was just a low silver.
I don't foresee blue status or anything like that in the near future, but I have decided to shape up a lot more, not just avoid warns/bans, but be a better poster. I'll still give my input on things but a lot of the trouble is probably because I post on far too much that I should just ignore. Maybe one day, I'm not really worried about it, and I don't think anyone else is either. If you like my posts, feel free to tell the staff or something. Thanks.
btw i saw some stephano zvts and he does somethingg quite interesting:4Q opening @25 supply he makes 2! ovies and then an ovie again at 33 (5 min gas 6 min 3rd+5thQ) seemed veery smooth (basicly the 5th Q is the only queen that creep spreads to the third and then stays there) (7min evos, gas goes: speed,+1/+1, lair)
I imagine him making an overlord at 25/28, and then at 28/28, is because those 2 extra queen's queued up and then some drones can bring you up to 36/36 very quickly. I do this too, but if you make the overlord after starting those queens so you are at ~33/36 that's fine too. It depends on your third timing, since you are banking money you don't want to start that overlord immediately, so by making it at 25, 28, and 36 so it all sort of flows so you can take that 45 third and not have to start an overlord until well after 45 since you are going to be in the 40s for a while (2 more queens, taking a third, taking gases).
|
Could you provide some (macro) benchmarks for this 6 queen play? When am I supposed to take my fourth? Even with a macro hatch and good injects I still struggle to get rid of my minerals. At what ingame time should I have my first broodlords morphing?
Thanks alot for this great guide!
|
My timings are slightly different. I'm 1100 master.
15 hatch 17 pool 2x queen 2x queen at 30 34 overlord 34 drone 35 3rd 1x queen 2x gas at 38 Overlord sac at 6
I think mine is a little bit greedier but I am never punished for it. The hatch goes down about 40 seconds sooner so hellion banshee can never stop my 3rd. Even reactor hellion expand banshee won't kill it.
Thoughts?
|
With the 6 queen opening, I feel like I'm so very weak to mech. I'm starting 1/1, droning up, and I sac an overlord and see 2 factories, and blue flame is being researched. Then a bit later 8 BFH start roasting everything I have, because I don't have speed yet, and no roaches out. Walling off on maps like shakuras is so hard, you need like a dozen buildings.
What the hell do I do against this, and how should I respond to mech while doing this build? If I scout mech, should I throw down roach warren, start getting range upgrades and consider the melee upgrade a loss? Or do I take bases, and rush to broodlords? I feel like groups of BFH and banshees are so effective in denying 4th or higher bases, especially at maps like shakuras.
I would love some advice!
|
On September 22 2012 23:17 TyrionSC2 wrote: My timings are slightly different. I'm 1100 master.
15 hatch 17 pool 2x queen 2x queen at 30 34 overlord 34 drone 35 3rd 1x queen 2x gas at 38 Overlord sac at 6
I think mine is a little bit greedier but I am never punished for it. The hatch goes down about 40 seconds sooner so hellion banshee can never stop my 3rd. Even reactor hellion expand banshee won't kill it.
Thoughts?
You've never been punished for doing a 17 pool? What do you do against bunker rushes or other early cheeses? And won't a sac at around the 7 mark reveal more without it being too late to react? Just curious.
|
On September 29 2012 00:44 SCInfestor wrote: You've never been punished for doing a 17 pool? What do you do against bunker rushes or other early cheeses? And won't a sac at around the 7 mark reveal more without it being too late to react? Just curious.
In general, you want to be able to deal with 11/11 rush/cheese with just drones, so 17 pool is fine. You may have to pull all your drones, but as it's an all-in as long as you micro your drones properly it's not too bad. In general, ignore the non-bunker-building scv's and go after the marines, and try to pull the weak drones back.
|
On September 29 2012 00:44 SCInfestor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 23:17 TyrionSC2 wrote: My timings are slightly different. I'm 1100 master.
15 hatch 17 pool 2x queen 2x queen at 30 34 overlord 34 drone 35 3rd 1x queen 2x gas at 38 Overlord sac at 6
I think mine is a little bit greedier but I am never punished for it. The hatch goes down about 40 seconds sooner so hellion banshee can never stop my 3rd. Even reactor hellion expand banshee won't kill it.
Thoughts? You've never been punished for doing a 17 pool? What do you do against bunker rushes or other early cheeses? And won't a sac at around the 7 mark reveal more without it being too late to react? Just curious.
17 pool is safe against most rushes. The only time that it can get scary is against 11 11. And I scout in order to see that. If they do a bunker I just pull a few drones and am fine.
Saccing at 6 means you don't see stuff until 6:15-6:30. This means the starport will just start cloak/banshee, or you will see if the command center is already finished (means 1rax 2cc), or if a pressure is coming. If you go at 7 you will not see the banshee until it is 1/2 complete. This can be bad. Also, if they do 2fact hellion you may be in trouble if you sac too late. My timings are about 30-45 seconds after belial's recommendation. I think any later is just not safe unless you are just doing a catch all opening.
On September 29 2012 00:00 Henk wrote: With the 6 queen opening, I feel like I'm so very weak to mech. I'm starting 1/1, droning up, and I sac an overlord and see 2 factories, and blue flame is being researched. Then a bit later 8 BFH start roasting everything I have, because I don't have speed yet, and no roaches out. Walling off on maps like shakuras is so hard, you need like a dozen buildings.
What the hell do I do against this, and how should I respond to mech while doing this build? If I scout mech, should I throw down roach warren, start getting range upgrades and consider the melee upgrade a loss? Or do I take bases, and rush to broodlords? I feel like groups of BFH and banshees are so effective in denying 4th or higher bases, especially at maps like shakuras.
I would love some advice!
First, I always cancel melee and get range and throw down a roach warren. Play defensive and don't drone your 3rd. Your evos should always form a choke into your nat, and you want a spine in between, that way you can block with a queen and be fine. You can defend your 3rd sending a few queens down there while roaches are making. You shouldn't really take any damage then.
|
Could you provide some (macro) benchmarks for this 6 queen play? When am I supposed to take my fourth? Even with a macro hatch and good injects I still struggle to get rid of my minerals. At what ingame time should I have my first broodlords morphing?
Thanks alot for this great guide!
You want to take your fourth as soon as possible, of course. This may mean when mutas/infestors are out, or it may mean earlier. Essentially, Terran should have landed his third by the time you'd go for your fourth, or his all-in off 2 base would have hit. You want to have broodlords morphing around 15:00. Hotkeying the spire, starting hive right when infestation pit is done, and getting gases on time and a fourth quick enough, are all huge factors in this.
I think mine is a little bit greedier but I am never punished for it. The hatch goes down about 40 seconds sooner so hellion banshee can never stop my 3rd. Even reactor hellion expand banshee won't kill it.
Thoughts?
Even with a ~50 third, it'll be up in time for you to plant a spore to stop banshees. You can always walk a spine over to the third, and it's really not an issue since you won't have drones there immediately.
With the 6 queen opening, I feel like I'm so very weak to mech. I'm starting 1/1, droning up, and I sac an overlord and see 2 factories, and blue flame is being researched. Then a bit later 8 BFH start roasting everything I have, because I don't have speed yet, and no roaches out. Walling off on maps like shakuras is so hard, you need like a dozen buildings.
What the hell do I do against this, and how should I respond to mech while doing this build? If I scout mech, should I throw down roach warren, start getting range upgrades and consider the melee upgrade a loss? Or do I take bases, and rush to broodlords? I feel like groups of BFH and banshees are so effective in denying 4th or higher bases, especially at maps like shakuras.
I would love some advice!
You should have 2 evos, a spine, and 1-2 queens at hold position at your natural choke by 7:30, or around 40-50 supply. On certain maps I'll actually make a baneling nest if the choke is wide (Like ohana - just get it before speed. you can also just have a 2nd queen hold position or something like that). That means that the terran has only 1 place to go, which is your third, since your nat and main are walled off. And your third should have a spine started at 50 and 4 queens there (have the queen in the nat hold position at the choke and put her back after each inject, or just have another queen hold there if that takes too much apm for you).
And that's at 7:30, when terran can only have 4 hellions running in. Something like bfh will only come out once you have 70+ drones, which should be pretty easy to deal with because now you hve 75 drones and can just pump lings.
Check the reps I posted on 6 queen opener.
Yes, it can be hard to wall-off on certain maps. Just like Toss, you should spend time on custom against easy AI and test out the best way to wall. Some zergs will make a wall where they use the natural hatch as part of the wall-off, and the single spine to ward-off the hellions, and with such a wall-off you can hold the ramp with just a single queen instead of 2, but imo the problem with that is he can just sit in your natural and at worst, fry drones, and at best, force you to lose mining time, so I prefer making a baneling nest before speed to wall-in earlier. You could also just make 3 evo chambers on certain maps.
I won't even make roaches against such bfh or double fact hellion all-ins (from a 1 rax FE/cc first). You should have walled off the natural in time, and from there just 4 queens and 1-2 spines at the third will stop any mass hellion attack cold. All you need to worry about is 4 hellions at 7:30. If you proof yourself against that, you should be safe against any number of hellions.
You've never been punished for doing a 17 pool? What do you do against bunker rushes or other early cheeses? And won't a sac at around the 7 mark reveal more without it being too late to react? Just curious.
It'll be tighter but you can survive, since you are using drones to survive, not lings/queens. Lings/queens/spines just end the timing, but they aren't what stops it. I dont agree with pulling every drone against 11/11 though, you should just pull most of them. If terran just keeps micro'ing, he'll force you to lose too much mining time, his marine ball will get too big, and you lose. Just ime.
Added a replay to the replay section on how to hold 1 base 3 rax all-in, with a 6 queen opener with fast third.
|
Hi Belial, just wanted to say thank you for your ZvT and ZvP guides. I use them often and they have helped me alot.
|
Russian Federation604 Posts
Thanks YOU Belial, great job! Hope to see you filling up this with new strategies and timings!
|
Great guide, has helped me out alot. Now, as a high diamond eu player, im having a hard time figuring out what to do in the really late game, like around 40minutes+ when there almost is no gas income left. I would really appreciate an answer!
|
Hello Guys,
THX Belial for this guide! But i juste have a question. I prefer muta/ling/ban style, so can i use this standard build with a transition to muta instead of infestor ?
9 Overlord 15 Hatchery 16 pool 17 Overlord @100%pool: Double Queen Drone drone drone 25 Overlord Drone drone drone @100%Queen: 3rd + 4th Queen Drone drone drone ~5:00 Double Gas Geyser @100 Gas: Zergling Speed ~6:20 3rd Base @100 Gas: Double evolution chamber @250 Gas: +1 Melee +1 Armor upgrades + 3rd + 4th Gas @100 Gas: Lair + Baneling nest + 5th Queen
And then get Spire for mass mutalisk :
@Lair: Baneling Speed + Spire + 4th Base
This is viable ? isn't too late ? I dont will be too exposed to marine/tank push ?
If it's not viable, someone can explain to me a standard build muta/gling/ban with fast third ?
Thx for all
|
On September 29 2012 01:08 Defenestrator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 00:44 SCInfestor wrote: You've never been punished for doing a 17 pool? What do you do against bunker rushes or other early cheeses? And won't a sac at around the 7 mark reveal more without it being too late to react? Just curious. In general, you want to be able to deal with 11/11 rush/cheese with just drones, so 17 pool is fine. You may have to pull all your drones, but as it's an all-in as long as you micro your drones properly it's not too bad. In general, ignore the non-bunker-building scv's and go after the marines, and try to pull the weak drones back. I see you've never been 2raxed by Fuzer or "Fuzerstyle"(using the bunkers and scv's to block marines in chokes drones can't mineralwalk). Not saying pulling drones is wrong, it's the right choice but you'll have hard time with 17 pool when 2rax is executed properly.
|
|
|
|