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Hi,
I am a Diamond Terran and i just cannot seem to beat zergs,
I have tried every single strategy in the book (except cheeses) but the zerg just allways has too many units.
So what did i do. I went for a macro opening. 1 rax 3 cc. STILL zerg has too many units!
Standard play of what zerg uses against me. 15 hatch > pool > + hatch > make a ton of lings and defend with it till they have infestors.
And at the 16 min mark they have 20 brood lords. which is basicly unkillable unless you are on 5 base yourself and have 500 ravens.
So.
I have a replay of my most recent game vs zerg. i went for a build that ryung did a while ago : its basicly CC first > hellions > 3rd cc > marine tank.
(i do not like the banshee play )
question 1: How do i do damage in the mid game vs zerg.. because you NEED to do damage vs zerg otherwise they have a too good of an army or too early.
question 2: How can i be very macro heavy in the early game and still be agressive.
http://speedy.sh/PSrGn/Cloud-Kingdom-LE-11.SC2Replay
Here is my replay, please comment on anything that i did wrong and how i can kill the swarm of a-move.
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I guarantee Zerg is not going to have 20 broods at 16:00. He'll have like 5-8 broods, which are vulnerable to flanks and vikings. There's no reason you can't start starport and viking production as soon as you see zerg morphing his hive at ~10:00.
you don't NEED to do damage against zerg, i think that's why you end up behind in macro games. This way of thinking was outdated a long time ago.
If you are macro heavy in the early game, than you can't be agressive. That was why the queen range was buffed - it was completely broken that terran could both go super fast third base, and at the same time not only deny zerg's third, but trade for drones every time.
Your title is a bit off too. Zergs tend to have higher apm than T/P at less-than-pro level, so I doubt he's an 'a-move' zerg.
watching rep
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If you go banshee hellion into a fast 3rd cc, you can take map control + hurrass the zerg, forcing him/her to make units/more drones you might kill. Then follow up with mech or bio/tank play. I would reccomend mech nowadays, I've been watching gsl and seeing a lot of terrans go mech and it working very well off of the banshee hellion builds. GL if you read my advice. (High masters protoss used to play terran)
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Hi there, diamond terran here (if it matters at all)
answer 1: TECH. You need something that forces the zerg into a deviation from his greedy plan, pro players go for hellion banshee play, since it gives them an edge and an oportunity to stablish a mid-late game plan, and react according to zerg tech in a more efficient way (banshee scouts spire/infestation pit ). Hellions do well against drones so this can effectively negate any advantage your opponent might have in terms of economy (for a while, giving you an even or better economy if you do enough damage, in case you couldnt kill any drone with hellions youre most likely doing it with your banshee(s) ).
There are other ways to punish greedy zergs, like heavy marine pushes at 7:00 timing that are quite hard to pull of because you have to make those marines survive after killing the hatch.
answer 2: You must be macro heavy every game and every matchup, I believe your question should be reformulated to:
How greedy can I be in this matchup?
The answer would be fast third cc its very greedy, and also pretty difficult to hold if your opponent scouts it.
You can be punished by a 2 base zerg the same way you can punish a zerg 3rd if you go for a timming attack.
I usually open gas first into 1rax expo which gives me fast hellions and delays my 2nd cc just a bit and forces early roaches or spines, that gives me time to transition according to what I see, if I see roaches I already have marines in my base so Ill be fine, if I go bio Ill be researching stim and switching my reactor on my factory to a starport with 2 more raxes. And if I go mech Ill be heading for an armory and siege tech.
My 2 cents... btw Zerg its not A move, it might have an edge on production and economy but a good zerg needs to know how to engage (or else you kill all his zerglings on a choke, abuse your tanks to kill his infestors, etc. Terran army its more cost efficient compared to zerg early units), dont be so biased itll make it harder on you to accept your losses if you dont accept that the other player had played better or exploited the advantages of you playing badly (which means he outplayed you anyway).
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On September 12 2012 23:48 Belial88 wrote:
I guarantee Zerg is not going to have 20 broods at 16:00. He'll have like 5-8 broods, which are vulnerable to flanks and vikings. There's no reason you can't start starport and viking production as soon as you see zerg morphing his hive at ~10:00.
you don't NEED to do damage against zerg, i think that's why you end up behind in macro games. This way of thinking was outdated a long time ago.
If you are macro heavy in the early game, than you can't be agressive. That was why the queen range was buffed - it was completely broken that terran could both go super fast third base, and at the same time not only deny zerg's third, but trade for drones every time.
Your title is a bit off too. Zergs tend to have higher apm than T/P at less-than-pro level, so I doubt he's an 'a-move' zerg.
watching rep
Don't pull stuff out of your ass when you're giving advice please:
"That was why the queen range was buffed - it was completely broken that terran could both go super fast third base, and at the same time not only deny zerg's third, but trade for drones every time."
And although I agree that the thread title is dumb; quoting higher APM as a product of micro -intensivity is too. I get higher APM with zerg always, despite mostly a-moving my shit.
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On September 13 2012 00:08 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 23:48 Belial88 wrote:
I guarantee Zerg is not going to have 20 broods at 16:00. He'll have like 5-8 broods, which are vulnerable to flanks and vikings. There's no reason you can't start starport and viking production as soon as you see zerg morphing his hive at ~10:00.
you don't NEED to do damage against zerg, i think that's why you end up behind in macro games. This way of thinking was outdated a long time ago.
If you are macro heavy in the early game, than you can't be agressive. That was why the queen range was buffed - it was completely broken that terran could both go super fast third base, and at the same time not only deny zerg's third, but trade for drones every time.
Your title is a bit off too. Zergs tend to have higher apm than T/P at less-than-pro level, so I doubt he's an 'a-move' zerg.
watching rep Don't pull stuff out of your ass when you're giving advice please: "That was why the queen range was buffed - it was completely broken that terran could both go super fast third base, and at the same time not only deny zerg's third, but trade for drones every time." And although I agree that the thread title is dumb; quoting higher APM as a product of micro -intensivity is too. I get higher APM with zerg always, despite mostly a-moving my shit.
APM scales more for zerg, being that injects and such allow for more production actions and that army control requires a lot of moving around. Higher APM doesnt mean better play at all, efficient actions and strategy are the way to go, since everyone spams actions and 600 move clicks wont win you games.
Seriously stop the A-moving crap... its old, and zerg actually needs different skillset than terran or protoss, more or less rewarding in different circumstances but thats all.
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On September 13 2012 00:08 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 23:48 Belial88 wrote:
I guarantee Zerg is not going to have 20 broods at 16:00. He'll have like 5-8 broods, which are vulnerable to flanks and vikings. There's no reason you can't start starport and viking production as soon as you see zerg morphing his hive at ~10:00.
you don't NEED to do damage against zerg, i think that's why you end up behind in macro games. This way of thinking was outdated a long time ago.
If you are macro heavy in the early game, than you can't be agressive. That was why the queen range was buffed - it was completely broken that terran could both go super fast third base, and at the same time not only deny zerg's third, but trade for drones every time.
Your title is a bit off too. Zergs tend to have higher apm than T/P at less-than-pro level, so I doubt he's an 'a-move' zerg.
watching rep Don't pull stuff out of your ass when you're giving advice please: "That was why the queen range was buffed - it was completely broken that terran could both go super fast third base, and at the same time not only deny zerg's third, but trade for drones every time." And although I agree that the thread title is dumb; quoting higher APM as a product of micro -intensivity is too. I get higher APM with zerg always, despite mostly a-moving my shit.
Thanks for your insightful contribution to this thread. Now go please read the strategy forum rules and think about what you've done.
You must not have watched the replay yourself, OP. I don't see how you can go CC first into 3CC double engi producing stimless/combatshieldless marines and still be floating 1k min/600 gas at the 11:00 mark and still think you should have won a macro game.
TL;DR, your build made no sense and you floated a ton of resources.
When you go CC first, a smart Zerg opponent will go for a fast third (possibly before pool) and quickly drone up 3 base. You need either a strong macro followup or very sharp timing attacks to win in that position. You seemingly tried to do both and failed miserably.
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- Mind if I ask why you go 2 rax? I don't really get why some terran's do that. If you do go 2 rax, why bother SCV scouting?
- if you make a depot, dont cancel it. and please, get your build order together. how can you expect to be masters if you dont even know how to do your build order?
- From about 4:00 to 4:52, you don't make any SCVs. wtf? that's a HUGE blunder. In the meantime, zerg has been droning properly. I think zerg just macros a lot better than you here. He can a-move easily if his macro is that good.
- if you see zerg go hatch first (with your scv scout) why didnt you move your marines out on the map? You KNOW where EVERY zerg sends their first two overlords on this map, why don't you kill them? I strongly recommend you watch some TvZ of Major, on each map. He has some amazing overlord hunting kills, but it really doesn't take much. At least Zerg a-moves, you don't do anything. Why bother even making those marines at all?
- 7:30 700+ minerals... you are banking way too much money dude. If you insist on not going banshees (why would you not do the build that every pro player does... that makes zero sense to me, i dont understand why terrans dont go hellion/banshee every game, imo they just end up behind), you need to throw down 2-3 more rax around 7:30, not just 1 extra rax. A rax is not similar to a starport in cost and production... zerg is macroing much better than you here too.
- Your first 4 hellions need to be running into zerg. That means your first 2 hellions need to be by the tower by his base, or in front of his ramp, and then you rally the next hellions, and when it's 4 hellions at ~8:00, bam, you run in. This Zerg clearly didn't know how to play, and he did not wall off his natural. You would have won the game then and there if you knew moer on how to play your opener.
In fact, if you went hellion/banshee instead of your terrible opener, you would have just straight up won against this zerg. Zerg needs to be walled in in his natural with evo's and hold position queens and a spine. If they don't, you just run hellions in to the main and win. This zerg also would not have had spores in time either. It's obvious he doesn't know how to play 6 queen.
Unfortunately, because you don't even know how to a-move, Zerg gets a HUGE economic lead beacuse he's greedy as fuck. Why are you making hellions at all if you dont plan to use them. Your first 4 hellions at 8:00 need to be inside zerg's base. You are missing your timing when you wait for 6+ hellions...
- your macro is terrible when you run with the hellions. you should just a-move and focus on your macro, because your are literlaly killing yourself. your multitask obviously isnt there yet. you literally did more damage to yourself than to zerg, it was as if someone ran hellions into your main and killed 5-10 workers, thats how lapse your macro is getting.
- 47 workers at 10:00. I don't know terran benchmarks, but I'm pretty sure you are supposed to be at like 60+ right now? You never made a single SCV out of your third OC. What was up with that?
- you just never make scvs... after taking your third you almost never make any more scvs
- hard supply block at 113/113. you have no siege tanks now.
- total lack of scouting to see if Zerg is going mutas or infestors, both of which require completely opposite responses.
vs mutas - turtle up, rine/tank, survive, then push out around max and win
vs infestors - take fourth base, drop basically with every medivac, figure out what tech direction is zerg going (spire started with hive or not) and start making marauders/ravens/vikings accordingly. You can also push the 5th of zerg, maybe 4th.
- Hotkey your ebays and armories. You can set the hotkey to something never used and out of the way like 0, or you can just put it on the same hotkey as anything (your rax, your OCs, hell, even if your army) and tab to get to it, as it'll never get in the way, and you can watch upgrade progress for when you should engage. You just never upgrade...
- you pushed a little early, but because of your constant supply blocks, you had no tanks and no medivacs. your army is just wayyy too tiny, andyou dont have nearly enough production facilities, and nearly enough SCVs.
- zerg is not supposed to be aggressive against you when they are getting hive! They are the ones that should be cowering in fear because your army is way bigger. The reason he was able to push you at your third, is because he was macroing WAY better than you. this zerg is a lot better of a player in this game. This is also because you just only have 2 tanks when you should have around 6.
- you never dropped, which is what you NEED to do against infestor play...
- you never scan, and you never drop, and you never attempt to scout, so you have no idea what zerg is doing. I can already tell you are going to lose, because you dont have enough marauders, you dont have enough vikings. Hell, it would be better if you literally just flipped a coin and started marauder/viking production as soon as that hive was morphed. You would have had at least a 50% chance to win.
As soon as Zerg starts morphing hive (around 10:00, btw), you need to start preparing for the hive tech (unless you want to do a 3 base rine/tank bust. which isn't really a good idea). Your viking production should have started around 11:55, when Zerg started his hive and put down a spire. You had no idea this was going on because you never dropped, much less scanned (you want to drop for scouting, not scan as much though, but scan better than nothing, which you did).
It's ludicrious you think you should be able to hold broods when you dont prepare for them. You need to prepare for them. You need to have at least 4 vikings per brood, or about 20-30 vikings against a max brood fleet (obviously just ~5-8 initial broods you only need around 10-15). You also could have denied zerg's 5th base and done a ton of damage with your mobile bio army.
- he surprises you with 12 broodlords. that should not have caught you by surprise... because you totally lacked scouting, it kills you. you also engage it instead of run, which was dumb, but that's becauase you lacked any awareness at all in this game. No forward marine, no spread on your units, not scanning forward to see what zerg has... you saw zerg morph hive a long time ago. what do you think, he's just getting hive for 3/3? dont be so silly.
you have a single viking, and he has 12 broodlords. It took him over 4 minutes to get his broodlords out, plenty of time for you to react, throw down 4-5 starports, and a 4th base. You never did any of this. You insisted on massing rine/tank/marauder, and ignored what the opponent was doing. It's no surprise you lost.
You need to prepare better. If Terran is going pure banshees, I don't continue on my merry way for going ling/infestor into broods. I see the starports, I react by getting mutas, corruptors, queens, as necessary. Of cours eyou are going to lose to broods if all you have is 1 viking. Of course tier 1 bio is going to lose to t3.
- why would you make 2 thors?
- you produce vikings 4 at a time, which is not nearly enough. you need to have like 4-5 reactored starports, not 2-3.
- i dont see where you got 'a-move zerg' from. He used his infestors well and made sure to never lose them, he engaged his lings smartly and went for surrounds, he used corruptors to pick off vikings. as far as I see, you are the one who a-moved - you a-moved your bio onto creep and lost half your army (the end of the game, really), you a-moved your rine/tank army and then lost it all to 12 broods that surprised you (that's like saying you got surprised by 12 carriers, or 12 thors...).
The zerg just macro'd way better than you. That's the real problem in this game. But it seemed like you had no idea how to play the lategame - no 4th taken for the longest time, never more than 60 SCVs, and never preparing for zerg's hive tech. Like if you ignore the hive tech problem, then it'll go away!
User was banned for continual poor posting and lengthy moderation history.
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Spend less time using phrases like "the a-move swarm", less time exaggerating ridiculously, and more time practicing not getting supply blocked and less time not spending your money. I honestly don't see why mods haven't started banning people for posts like this.
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On September 13 2012 00:08 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 23:48 Belial88 wrote:
I guarantee Zerg is not going to have 20 broods at 16:00. He'll have like 5-8 broods, which are vulnerable to flanks and vikings. There's no reason you can't start starport and viking production as soon as you see zerg morphing his hive at ~10:00.
you don't NEED to do damage against zerg, i think that's why you end up behind in macro games. This way of thinking was outdated a long time ago.
If you are macro heavy in the early game, than you can't be agressive. That was why the queen range was buffed - it was completely broken that terran could both go super fast third base, and at the same time not only deny zerg's third, but trade for drones every time.
Your title is a bit off too. Zergs tend to have higher apm than T/P at less-than-pro level, so I doubt he's an 'a-move' zerg.
watching rep Don't pull stuff out of your ass when you're giving advice please: "That was why the queen range was buffed - it was completely broken that terran could both go super fast third base, and at the same time not only deny zerg's third, but trade for drones every time." And although I agree that the thread title is dumb; quoting higher APM as a product of micro -intensivity is too. I get higher APM with zerg always, despite mostly a-moving my shit.
Blizzard commented on this... Don't need to be an asshat. I didn't say anything about why someone might have higher APM, I simply said zerg usually have higher APM, something you are saying yourself.
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On September 13 2012 00:27 Belial88 wrote:
- 47 workers at 10:00. I don't know terran benchmarks, but I'm pretty sure you are supposed to be at like 60+ right now? You never made a single SCV out of your third OC. What was up with that?
Think it's quite alright. Every "how to get master guide" i watched benchs 50+ SCV at 10min.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
On September 13 2012 00:40 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 00:27 Belial88 wrote:
- 47 workers at 10:00. I don't know terran benchmarks, but I'm pretty sure you are supposed to be at like 60+ right now? You never made a single SCV out of your third OC. What was up with that?
Think it's quite alright. Every "how to get master guide" i watched benchs 50+ SCV at 10min.
If you dont lose scvs or cut, you should have 40 by 10 minute mark on game timer as terran, assuming you only build them from your main, with terran having the slowest worker production in the game by a large margin, with nat etc there is no excuse not to be 60, an economically aggressive 3 base could have 70 in relative safety
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On September 13 2012 00:56 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 00:40 FFW_Rude wrote:On September 13 2012 00:27 Belial88 wrote:
- 47 workers at 10:00. I don't know terran benchmarks, but I'm pretty sure you are supposed to be at like 60+ right now? You never made a single SCV out of your third OC. What was up with that?
Think it's quite alright. Every "how to get master guide" i watched benchs 50+ SCV at 10min. If you dont lose scvs or cut, you should have 40 by 10 minute mark on game timer as terran, assuming you only build them from your main, with terran having the slowest worker production in the game by a large margin, with nat etc there is no excuse not to be 60, an economically aggressive 3 base could have 70 in relative safety
Taht's what i said. 47 is alright. I think 52 or 53 is what i have when i do marine only (i'm not master by a large margin  ). on 2base.
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when he A-moves his unstoppable zerg army you have to kill the lings firth because they're the fastest, then roaches or banes or whatever. After you complete that, make sure to kill the infestors and corruptors. Then if you get that far you can kill the brood lords all the way in the back.
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On September 13 2012 01:07 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 00:56 Cyro wrote:On September 13 2012 00:40 FFW_Rude wrote:On September 13 2012 00:27 Belial88 wrote:
- 47 workers at 10:00. I don't know terran benchmarks, but I'm pretty sure you are supposed to be at like 60+ right now? You never made a single SCV out of your third OC. What was up with that?
Think it's quite alright. Every "how to get master guide" i watched benchs 50+ SCV at 10min. If you dont lose scvs or cut, you should have 40 by 10 minute mark on game timer as terran, assuming you only build them from your main, with terran having the slowest worker production in the game by a large margin, with nat etc there is no excuse not to be 60, an economically aggressive 3 base could have 70 in relative safety Taht's what i said. 47 is alright. I think 52 or 53 is what i have when i do marine only (i'm not master by a large margin ). on 2base.
it's not really alright though. it's poor macro. I don't know what number it's supposed to be, or what, but he was not making workers for almost an entire minute from 4:00 to 4:52, and he NEVER made 3 workers at a time with his quick third OC, he only made 2 workers at a time, he CONSTANTLY didn't have workers being built in the first 10 minutes (and he even moreso didnt have 2 workers being made, and he NEVEr had 3 workers being made) and he never went above ~60 workers as he just stopped making scvs when he took his third.
and the OP went 3 base, not 2 base, so there's a big difference, and even when he landed his third, he just never made workers anymore.
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United States7488 Posts
Please read our strategy forum guidelines before making a new thread and tone down on the balance whining.
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EPT
