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Very nice hotkey suggestion, it looks insane. I'm definatly switching to something like this as a GM terran player. Tried it yesterday for the first time, some notes:
1. What's the reason for having alt c + alt v as a screen hotkey aswell, considering those are on the right side and all the other screen hotkeys (1, tab, alt q, alt w etc) are on the left side? Just lack of space on keyboard?
2. Is there any reason for the difference of setting the screen hotkeys: using shift for 1 and tab but using ctrl for q, w etc?
3. Missing idle worker, well it's on f1 but I myself would put it on caps lock for example (as I don't use the base hotkey). I use idle worker quite alot. Ctrl + idle worker (for all idle workers) is also pretty nice, but ctrl f1 is a shitty weird motion. I guess Caps Lock would be ok (having my ring finger on caps lock) so I'll probably try something like that. What do you think?
4. I've never used the "center on current selection hotkey". Do you prefer using "center on current selection" instead of hitting your control group twice? I guess that would be slightly faster as you're not hitting the same key twice.
5. I dislike the idea of having every single unit type on a different hotkey. It completely screws over stuff like splitting your army and it takes alot of time to manage, especially later in the game when you have other stuff to do aswell. I prefer relying on my mouse control in those situations, but of course the general hotkey setup is still the same & fine.
Anyways amazing setup 
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I gave this a go yesterday vs AI and I immediately noticed how natural it is on the fingers and makes more control groups and camera locations available for free almost. Much less finger spaghetti and much more options. I'll probably make minor adjustments to suit my keyboard and fingering better but it is a great improvement over default and grid.
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Hey, you wanted criticism so I figured I'd let you know that I think I made a better hotkey setup for Terran. I'll tell you why I think it's better:
- For anyone who is used to the standard layout, it's much easier to transition to my setup. I only rebind the keys that are in a bad place currently
- Very little hand movement is required. One gripe I have with your setup is the alt+x key bindings. I'm very slow with hitting alt + any other key. It just feels awkward to me!
Basically I started with the standard setup and did two things. First I moved any hotkey outside of QWERASDFZXCV into QWERASDFZXCV . Because of this I call my setup "small grid". I tried to move them in logical ways, usually moving them as short a distance as possible. T for stim now becomes R, B for build becomes F (I also moved B for barracks to F, so I can go F -> F to build a barracks) etc..
Then I made TYGHBN my camera hotkeys. They are very easy to reach, both to use them and to bind them (except that for the first few games I would go to my main base every time I tried to stim.  )
Anyway I thought your setup was really cool, but I think my setup is very strong in some areas where yours is weak (most importantly that mine is easier to learn).
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I would keep hittting that WIN-button, next to ctrl, all game long ^^,
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On May 08 2012 19:16 PoYo! wrote:Very nice hotkey suggestion, it looks insane. I'm definatly switching to something like this as a GM terran player. Tried it yesterday for the first time, some notes: 1. What's the reason for having alt c + alt v as a screen hotkey aswell, considering those are on the right side and all the other screen hotkeys (1, tab, alt q, alt w etc) are on the left side? Just lack of space on keyboard? 2. Is there any reason for the difference of setting the screen hotkeys: using shift for 1 and tab but using ctrl for q, w etc? 3. Missing idle worker, well it's on f1 but I myself would put it on caps lock for example (as I don't use the base hotkey). I use idle worker quite alot. Ctrl + idle worker (for all idle workers) is also pretty nice, but ctrl f1 is a shitty weird motion. I guess Caps Lock would be ok (having my ring finger on caps lock) so I'll probably try something like that. What do you think? 4. I've never used the "center on current selection hotkey". Do you prefer using "center on current selection" instead of hitting your control group twice? I guess that would be slightly faster as you're not hitting the same key twice. 5. I dislike the idea of having every single unit type on a different hotkey. It completely screws over stuff like splitting your army and it takes alot of time to manage, especially later in the game when you have other stuff to do aswell. I prefer relying on my mouse control in those situations, but of course the general hotkey setup is still the same & fine. Anyways amazing setup
Thanks so much for the feedback :D
1. for the layered inject, i found it easier to hold alt and pressing those keys, but since i've been talking to FoxyMayhem and have a better understanding about how the layered inject works, I think that x and c is much more natural. I'll make changes asap :D
2. I agree, however the base cam comes in handy when hunting for nukes on your mineral line, or when you have more than 6 bases to watch, I would definitely move the base cam to the next available close key.
3. shift is easier to press in combination with tab and 1. If you use shift with qwascv you run into overlaps when you want to shift queue an ability (like shift A(attack) focus fire) so you have to use control. the 2+6 split is because 2 are for non-base screen hotkeys and 6 are for base hotkeys. Feel free to fuck around with it :D
4. i use center on current selection for setting up base cameras (qwascv). A general idea when designing this setup is that I wanted to take as much actions off the mouse and onto the keyboard as possible, so that the mouse can do more stuff.
5. Mmm, the control groups are designed to be as close and easy to press as possible, how you use them is up to you. I like more precise army control, but as always, shifting things around to your personal preference is often times a good move if you are thinking everything all the way through.
Awesome review. Thanks man. :D
On May 08 2012 19:59 DonkTV wrote:
I gave this a go yesterday vs AI and I immediately noticed how natural it is on the fingers and makes more control groups and camera locations available for free almost. Much less finger spaghetti and much more options. I'll probably make minor adjustments to suit my keyboard and fingering better but it is a great improvement over default and grid.
Thanks so much man :D I might use the phrase "finger spaghetti" in the future.
On May 08 2012 20:08 maglame wrote:Hey, you wanted criticism so I figured I'd let you know that I think I made a better hotkey setup for Terran. I'll tell you why I think it's better: - For anyone who is used to the standard layout, it's much easier to transition to my setup. I only rebind the keys that are in a bad place currently
- Very little hand movement is required. One gripe I have with your setup is the alt+x key bindings. I'm very slow with hitting alt + any other key. It just feels awkward to me!
Basically I started with the standard setup and did two things. First I moved any hotkey outside of QWERASDFZXCV into QWERASDFZXCV . Because of this I call my setup "small grid". I tried to move them in logical ways, usually moving them as short a distance as possible. T for stim now becomes R, B for build becomes F (I also moved B for barracks to F, so I can go F -> F to build a barracks) etc.. Then I made TYGHBN my camera hotkeys. They are very easy to reach, both to use them and to bind them (except that for the first few games I would go to my main base every time I tried to stim. ) Anyway I thought your setup was really cool, but I think my setup is very strong in some areas where yours is weak (most importantly that mine is easier to learn).
Ease of transition is not a priority for me. Making the most efficient keystroke combinations takes priority over all.
The alt key is going to take time getting used to. Luckily, the new setup that FoxyMayhem and I are working on together, completely solves the alt issue :D
I don't see how you can fit 10 control groups and 9 commands into 12 keys. If you are using only 3 control groups then I will definitely have to disagree that your setup is as comprehensive as mine. And you are also only using 6 camera hotkeys whereas I use the full 8.
I think your setup is really great for people who aren't interested in a layout that will serve them long term through the years of sc2 that are to follow, where I am very certain, players will be trying to use every bit of the keyboard they can to get an edge (esp with players like flash coming into the scene)
To be sure I'm not mis-communicating, I sincerely believe that there are a group of people who don't want to use more than 3 control groups (2 for macro 1 for army i would guess) And they definitely ought to try your layout :D
Thanks for the feedback.
On May 08 2012 20:24 SweKenZo wrote:
I would keep hittting that WIN-button, next to ctrl, all game long ^^,
Take it off your keyboard man, its not fair to the rest of us! D:<
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I hab a suggestion.
Set screen hotkey - alt + q (or w,a,s,c,v)
Use screen hotkey - ctrl + q (or w,a,s,c,v)
In other words, switch alt and control
Because control easier to press.
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I don't see how you can fit 10 control groups and 9 commands into 12 keys. If you are using only 3 control groups then I will definitely have to disagree that your setup is as comprehensive as mine. And you are also only using 6 camera hotkeys whereas I use the full 8
I use 1-0 for control groups, just like the standard layout. I also use space for a camera, which I mainly use for my rally point.
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When is the new version coming out?
Also do you think it will be easier to transition from the current implementation to the plan implementation or from the default Blizzard hotkeys to the new version. I have been delaying trying out this custom setup just to forget what I've learned and try the new setup.
Thanks, Will
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On May 09 2012 01:35 maglame wrote:Show nested quote +I don't see how you can fit 10 control groups and 9 commands into 12 keys. If you are using only 3 control groups then I will definitely have to disagree that your setup is as comprehensive as mine. And you are also only using 6 camera hotkeys whereas I use the full 8 I use 1-0 for control groups, just like the standard layout. I also use space for a camera, which I mainly use for my rally point.
using 1-0 for control groups is insanely inefficient. The words better or worse are too vague to use here. My layout is much more efficient than your layout. Yours is less efficient but easier to learn.
On May 09 2012 02:26 wc4482 wrote:
When is the new version coming out?
Also do you think it will be easier to transition from the current implementation to the plan implementation or from the default Blizzard hotkeys to the new version. I have been delaying trying out this custom setup just to forget what I've learned and try the new setup.
Thanks, Will
If you want the more ergonomically efficient setup, i would suggest waiting for TheCore. it should be out within a week. (how very very wrong we were) But remember that there is no end all be all setup, if we find a new way after the next setup, we will not allow anything to hold us back. However, I will continue to check this post, respond to questions, and make Chameleon as excellent as possible :D
As far as which version will be easier to transition from, neither will be easier. This is very different from either standard, grid, Darkgrid or Chameleon. But it is also more ergonomically efficient than any of those layouts.
EDITED for name change
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On May 08 2012 03:20 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 09:27 Reptile-Rome wrote:
I personally do not think it is a good idea to change the hot keys like you have. Here are my reasons:
1) It may be faster but how certain are you that it is better for winning? Theoretically it may seem better, but we would need some sort of quantifiable test to determine this. This is my weakest argument, but just because everything is closer and well defined does not necessarily mean it better. Consider this example: it may seem like it would be best to group every single unit into its own ctrl group in a fight. Let us say you have 10 marines, theoretically it would be better to have each marine in its own ctrl group and them micro the 10 marines by using the hotkey and clicking instead of clicking on each marine individually. But when you get right down to it, it is just better to just use the mouse in those situations. It is better for winning. This example is just to show where theory does not work as well as it should. Again, this is my weakest argument but the argument still stands: where is your research (on a large population) that this is the better way to win?
2) In general, I am apposed to custom hotkeys. I think that everyone should use the same hotkeys. This keeps the game standard. Some may want variation, but you can do that by getting different keyboards (i.e. mechanical vs matte) or whatever to still feel like you have some control. It also makes it a more challenging game, and people will really respect that you can use so many ctrl groups for example. But I do agree that there are some very bad original hotkeys such as "p" for patrol. This is one of the few hotkeys I changed to make it closer (changed it to J).
3) You set up may not work for certain hand sizes. It may work better for smaller hands. For example, I prefer using 1-0 for ctrl groups. In fact, I can reach with my pinky on the ctrl key and my pointer finger to the 8 key on my blackwidow keyboard. I therefore have a fast way to use up to 8 ctrl groups (which I utilize all of them).
4) I do not double click anything. I find it faster/more accurate to ctrl click in order to select all of one unit. Perhaps I am misinterpreting your set up, but I think it would pose problems. Especially when using the shift + ctrl + click to add all of one type of unit to the ctrl group.
5) If your friend is playing sc2 and he needs to go take a dump, you cannot hop on and play for him. Your keys are all different. I guess you would need to make friends who use your set up. I personally like the idea of being able to play anytime anywhere even without my account. (again I only have like one or two hotkeys that I changed, patrol to J and overlord speed to U)
6) There are other rts type games where hotkey customization is not allowed. For example brood wars, wc3 and ages of empires. I still play these games from time to time and this set up would mess everything up and prevent me from playing these games.
Final thoughts:
I applaud your effort and I have too thought about this a lot and tested out different set ups. Like grid and what not. Nevertheless, I think it is more theoretical than practical for winning games. I also think some of the normal hotkeys are retarded and blizzard should change them to be closer such as obvious ones like patrol. This deserves a second response, just to emphasize how wrong it is. 1. Not only your weakest argument, but not even valid at all. First, you acknowledge the customization is likely faster than Standard. You seem to be arguing between using hotkeys vs. not using hotkeys, instead of using this (or any) custom setup vs. Standard. So, if you want to control everything by mouse only, it doesn't matter what hotkey setup you use. If you choose to use hotkeys, then an optimized setup is better than standard, as you've already said. 2. You're "opposed" to using custom hotkeys, yet you acknowledge you use them yourself. Need I say more ? Ok, I will. Blizzard has added hotkey customization to the game, therefore it is part of the game. Part of becoming a better gamer, is everything that goes into your gameplay, from posture, hand position, studying the metagame, following build orders, and yes, making your in-game actions as efficient as possible. If you want to be the best player using a "Standard" layout, that's your choice (even though you already said you made changes), but people play the game for many reasons. Using a customized hotkey layout adds to the enjoyment because it assists your gameplay in all scenarios except one, which you don't even practice. 3. You think stretching your hand across the keyboard to activate your 8th control group is efficient ? Are you trolling ? 4. Double clicking vs. ctrl+clicking is personal choice and has nothing to do with a given layout. I would surmise that any method of adding units in any customized setup is easier than reaching across the keyboard to select Shift + 8. 5. Ok, as I write this, I'm becoming more convinced that you're trolling. But if you're not, this fails on a number of levels. What if your friend has a different hand size than you ? Would that be a problem with your point #3 ? What if your friend customized his setup, so that even if you use standard, he can't ? What if your friend... anyways, this is stupid. 6. What ? Are you suggesting that you can only play games where the keys used are the exact same to the games you've gotten used to ? Are you old enough to drive ? How in the world can you drive when there is no keyboard or mouse. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I've been trolled, but I wrote too much just to say 'Fuck it' and delete my post.
I am not sure how to prove that I am not trollling other than to say... I am not trolling and 100% sincere. Rather than argue back and forth with my previous points I think I already made them. It is hard to put into words but it just feels wrong to do what you are suggesting.
I also may be a silent majority. There have been many "new" hotkey setups and arguments for them since sc2 came out and many people just do not read them for similar reasons. The people who will reply to what I said are people already convinced the new system is good and thus will attack what I say. But those who agree with me are probably not reading that far into the forum.
Anyways, I stand by my points. And I am not trolling...
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On May 10 2012 00:54 Reptile-Rome wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 03:20 Kaitlin wrote:On May 07 2012 09:27 Reptile-Rome wrote:
I personally do not think it is a good idea to change the hot keys like you have. Here are my reasons:
1) It may be faster but how certain are you that it is better for winning? Theoretically it may seem better, but we would need some sort of quantifiable test to determine this. This is my weakest argument, but just because everything is closer and well defined does not necessarily mean it better. Consider this example: it may seem like it would be best to group every single unit into its own ctrl group in a fight. Let us say you have 10 marines, theoretically it would be better to have each marine in its own ctrl group and them micro the 10 marines by using the hotkey and clicking instead of clicking on each marine individually. But when you get right down to it, it is just better to just use the mouse in those situations. It is better for winning. This example is just to show where theory does not work as well as it should. Again, this is my weakest argument but the argument still stands: where is your research (on a large population) that this is the better way to win?
2) In general, I am apposed to custom hotkeys. I think that everyone should use the same hotkeys. This keeps the game standard. Some may want variation, but you can do that by getting different keyboards (i.e. mechanical vs matte) or whatever to still feel like you have some control. It also makes it a more challenging game, and people will really respect that you can use so many ctrl groups for example. But I do agree that there are some very bad original hotkeys such as "p" for patrol. This is one of the few hotkeys I changed to make it closer (changed it to J).
3) You set up may not work for certain hand sizes. It may work better for smaller hands. For example, I prefer using 1-0 for ctrl groups. In fact, I can reach with my pinky on the ctrl key and my pointer finger to the 8 key on my blackwidow keyboard. I therefore have a fast way to use up to 8 ctrl groups (which I utilize all of them).
4) I do not double click anything. I find it faster/more accurate to ctrl click in order to select all of one unit. Perhaps I am misinterpreting your set up, but I think it would pose problems. Especially when using the shift + ctrl + click to add all of one type of unit to the ctrl group.
5) If your friend is playing sc2 and he needs to go take a dump, you cannot hop on and play for him. Your keys are all different. I guess you would need to make friends who use your set up. I personally like the idea of being able to play anytime anywhere even without my account. (again I only have like one or two hotkeys that I changed, patrol to J and overlord speed to U)
6) There are other rts type games where hotkey customization is not allowed. For example brood wars, wc3 and ages of empires. I still play these games from time to time and this set up would mess everything up and prevent me from playing these games.
Final thoughts:
I applaud your effort and I have too thought about this a lot and tested out different set ups. Like grid and what not. Nevertheless, I think it is more theoretical than practical for winning games. I also think some of the normal hotkeys are retarded and blizzard should change them to be closer such as obvious ones like patrol. This deserves a second response, just to emphasize how wrong it is. 1. Not only your weakest argument, but not even valid at all. First, you acknowledge the customization is likely faster than Standard. You seem to be arguing between using hotkeys vs. not using hotkeys, instead of using this (or any) custom setup vs. Standard. So, if you want to control everything by mouse only, it doesn't matter what hotkey setup you use. If you choose to use hotkeys, then an optimized setup is better than standard, as you've already said. 2. You're "opposed" to using custom hotkeys, yet you acknowledge you use them yourself. Need I say more ? Ok, I will. Blizzard has added hotkey customization to the game, therefore it is part of the game. Part of becoming a better gamer, is everything that goes into your gameplay, from posture, hand position, studying the metagame, following build orders, and yes, making your in-game actions as efficient as possible. If you want to be the best player using a "Standard" layout, that's your choice (even though you already said you made changes), but people play the game for many reasons. Using a customized hotkey layout adds to the enjoyment because it assists your gameplay in all scenarios except one, which you don't even practice. 3. You think stretching your hand across the keyboard to activate your 8th control group is efficient ? Are you trolling ? 4. Double clicking vs. ctrl+clicking is personal choice and has nothing to do with a given layout. I would surmise that any method of adding units in any customized setup is easier than reaching across the keyboard to select Shift + 8. 5. Ok, as I write this, I'm becoming more convinced that you're trolling. But if you're not, this fails on a number of levels. What if your friend has a different hand size than you ? Would that be a problem with your point #3 ? What if your friend customized his setup, so that even if you use standard, he can't ? What if your friend... anyways, this is stupid. 6. What ? Are you suggesting that you can only play games where the keys used are the exact same to the games you've gotten used to ? Are you old enough to drive ? How in the world can you drive when there is no keyboard or mouse. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I've been trolled, but I wrote too much just to say 'Fuck it' and delete my post. I am not sure how to prove that I am not trollling other than to say... I am not trolling and 100% sincere. Rather than argue back and forth with my previous points I think I already made them. It is hard to put into words but it just feels wrong to do what you are suggesting. I also may be a silent majority. There have been many "new" hotkey setups and arguments for them since sc2 came out and many people just do not read them for similar reasons. The people who will reply to what I said are people already convinced the new system is good and thus will attack what I say. But those who agree with me are probably not reading that far into the forum. Anyways, I stand by my points. And I am not trolling...
IMO, to play SC2 using efficient hotkeys, EVERYONE needs to customize their own set up. I am in no way saying that JaKaTaK's is the best, just that everyone needs to figure out their own way and what is comfortable and efficient for them. Me for example: reaching a control group past 5 or 6 is too far, so I changed 7-0 to my side mouse buttons. Like i said, everyone just needs to figure out what works for them but blizzards standard set up is just ineffcient, plain and simple.
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@Reptile-Rome again
You may say that you are a silent majority and that you stand by your points, but you cannot argue without proof.
First of all, you cannot stand by your point that ctrl-8 is efficient. The farthest hotkey in this setup is ctrl-5. If you can prove to me that 8 is closer to ctrl than 5 than I will agree with you.
Your first arugment is invalid, again
Your second: We have already acknowledged you as a hypocrite, this argument is invalidated as well
Your third:addressed already
Your fourth: As you said, it is a misinterpretation. double-clicking is unrelated
Your fifth: Unless all of your sc2 playing friends have diarrhea, your friend shouldn't have a problem taking a dump in between games in the first place. Sc2 hotkey system was designed to let you use your hotkeys anywhere you are with your account.
Your sixth: First and foremost, this is an assumption. You have shown no reasons why this would cause such a thing. In addition, these are different games. Even brood war, the most similar game to sc2, has very many different shortcuts, which may be enough to nullify the fact that brood war is sc2's predecessor.
If you wish to stand by your argument, you are welcome to continue. After all, this is the internet, you can have your opinion, no matter how wrong it is.
Conclusion: The only reason not to switch is having to go through the switch.
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On May 10 2012 06:16 uoeahtns wrote:
@Reptile-Rome again
You may say that you are a silent majority and that you stand by your points, but you cannot argue without proof.
First of all, you cannot stand by your point that ctrl-8 is efficient. The farthest hotkey in this setup is ctrl-5. If you can prove to me that 8 is closer to ctrl than 5 than I will agree with you.
Your first arugment is invalid, again
Your second: We have already acknowledged you as a hypocrite, this argument is invalidated as well
Your third:addressed already
Your fourth: As you said, it is a misinterpretation. double-clicking is unrelated
Your fifth: Unless all of your sc2 playing friends have diarrhea, your friend shouldn't have a problem taking a dump in between games in the first place. Sc2 hotkey system was designed to let you use your hotkeys anywhere you are with your account.
Your sixth: First and foremost, this is an assumption. You have shown no reasons why this would cause such a thing. In addition, these are different games. Even brood war, the most similar game to sc2, has very many different shortcuts, which may be enough to nullify the fact that brood war is sc2's predecessor.
If you wish to stand by your argument, you are welcome to continue. After all, this is the internet, you can have your opinion, no matter how wrong it is.
Conclusion: The only reason not to switch is having to go through the switch.
I definitely agree that making the switch is at least the biggest reason not to switch if not the only reason not to switch. Unfortunately for some, the time has come for us to choose between what is efficient, and what is easy.
On May 10 2012 03:33 monkybone wrote:
@Reptile-Rome: I think it's just an expression of suppressed jealousy and anger towards those who put in the time and effort to learn a new hotkey setup and reap the benefits, because you don't want to put in the same time and effort, and irrationally feel that it's unfair that others have that advantage. Thus the "opposition" towards different hotkey setups and various nonsensical arguments. You think that since the majority of players don't switch their hotkey setup in such a radical fashion, they must feel the same way, and therefore you assume your opinion is held by the majority.
Damn monkybone, getting deep and psycological on us. Thanks for that. If I had a guess I'd say your spot on, or damn close.
For Reptile, In time, you will see. I cannot prove it now. But when all progamers use a custom setup, I will get to say I told you so, until then...
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Hey!
Looking to switch to one of these fancy hotkey setups, was also looking at darkgrid and noticed this message on the darkgrid thread:
New Players: do not start the transition to Darkgrid. I've joined forces with JaKaTaK, and we may be making a layout that is even better.
Does this mean I should wait before trying to learn one of these layouts or do we start with yours instead of darkgrid?
Thanks!
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On May 10 2012 09:04 JaKaTaK wrote:
But when all progamers use a custom setup, I will get to say I told you so, until then...
Right now, pro gamers are making small tweaks here and there, but mostly using standard. My assumption is that they have so many events to participate in, they can't spare a block of however many weeks it takes to get back to their level with a completely new system. It will take people who aren't at that level now, but who work at improving their game, with the use of more optimized setups, to demonstrate the difference. When people with custom setups develop their skills to compete at a professional level, they will overtake the pros using standard, whether it's due to increased multitasking through more control groups, or whatever, the layout will be a big factor. At that point, mainstream pros will more actively work on developing more optimized layouts.
At that point, we run into the next problem, but then also the solution presents itself as well. I will postulate it here, and people may disagree, but I believe it firmly:
The optimal hotkey setup is one in which alternate bindings are used for Shift, Ctrl, and Alt.
Unfortunately, such modifications require either a third party program, or a programmable keyboard. Programmable keyboards are allowed in tournaments, but at least MLG requires prior approval, and it's my understanding that changes to the keyboard and mouse drivers are not allowed. As long as tournaments don't allow such modifications, competitors will not adopt those changes in their hotkey layout. So, at the point where pro's begin to really work to develop optimal hotkey layouts, they will realize the benefit of making such changes in the drivers, and they can be the ones to pressure MLG and other tournaments to permit such adaptations. These changes are completely legal as far as ladder play is concerned. In the end, it's in the tournament's interest to have the highest quality games, and best competition. Once these changes are tournament legal, this game will not only be much easier for casuals (standard layout sucks), but the multitasking in the highest level games will be even more impressive. So, hopefully that happens sooner rather than later. I'm convinced that once pro's use optimal hotkey layouts, this period in SC2 history will be very much like the Stone Ages.
Until then, I'll use my own layout with the knowledge that I have no intention of playing in MLG.
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On May 10 2012 11:44 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 09:04 JaKaTaK wrote:
But when all progamers use a custom setup, I will get to say I told you so, until then... Right now, pro gamers are making small tweaks here and there, but mostly using standard. My assumption is that they have so many events to participate in, they can't spare a block of however many weeks it takes to get back to their level with a completely new system. It will take people who aren't at that level now, but who work at improving their game, with the use of more optimized setups, to demonstrate the difference. When people with custom setups develop their skills to compete at a professional level, they will overtake the pros using standard, whether it's due to increased multitasking through more control groups, or whatever, the layout will be a big factor. At that point, mainstream pros will more actively work on developing more optimized layouts. At that point, we run into the next problem, but then also the solution presents itself as well. I will postulate it here, and people may disagree, but I believe it firmly: Show nested quote +
The optimal hotkey setup is one in which alternate bindings are used for Shift, Ctrl, and Alt.
Unfortunately, such modifications require either a third party program, or a programmable keyboard. Programmable keyboards are allowed in tournaments, but at least MLG requires prior approval, and it's my understanding that changes to the keyboard and mouse drivers are not allowed. As long as tournaments don't allow such modifications, competitors will not adopt those changes in their hotkey layout. So, at the point where pro's begin to really work to develop optimal hotkey layouts, they will realize the benefit of making such changes in the drivers, and they can be the ones to pressure MLG and other tournaments to permit such adaptations. These changes are completely legal as far as ladder play is concerned. In the end, it's in the tournament's interest to have the highest quality games, and best competition. Once these changes are tournament legal, this game will not only be much easier for casuals (standard layout sucks), but the multitasking in the highest level games will be even more impressive. So, hopefully that happens sooner rather than later. I'm convinced that once pro's use optimal hotkey layouts, this period in SC2 history will be very much like the Stone Ages. Until then, I'll use my own layout with the knowledge that I have no intention of playing in MLG.
I think that to find the most optimal layout, you would have to be able to have the freedom to rebind any key to any place, and to be able to use any key as a modifier key (like ctrl shift and alt). While I am at it, I would also suggest that we be allowed unlimited number of control groups, screen hotkeys, and unique hotkey overlap between unit and building abilities (having two different buildings or units in the same control group and being able to use multiple abilities without tabbing over.) Imagine being able to group your stargates with your nexus, 3 buttons for the nexus, 3 buttons for the stargate, it'd be pretty fucking awesome... IMO.
But I am also not 100% sure that it would require the moving of ctr shift and alt... the most efficient way might just have ctrl shift and alt right right where they are... 
On May 10 2012 09:11 Mitsuz wrote:Hey! Looking to switch to one of these fancy hotkey setups, was also looking at darkgrid and noticed this message on the darkgrid thread: Show nested quote +New Players: do not start the transition to Darkgrid. I've joined forces with JaKaTaK, and we may be making a layout that is even better. Does this mean I should wait before trying to learn one of these layouts or do we start with yours instead of darkgrid? Thanks!
Wait!!! We should have the first testable version up soon!
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On May 10 2012 13:27 JaKaTaK wrote:
I think that to find the most optimal layout, you would have to be able to have the freedom to rebind any key to any place, and to be able to use any key as a modifier key (like ctrl shift and alt). While I am at it, I would also suggest that we be allowed unlimited number of control groups, screen hotkeys, and unique hotkey overlap between unit and building abilities (having two different buildings or units in the same control group and being able to use multiple abilities without tabbing over.) Imagine being able to group your stargates with your nexus, 3 buttons for the nexus, 3 buttons for the stargate, it'd be pretty fucking awesome... IMO.
The reason I don't put production facilities with Nexus is because of the rally points. Tabbing for me isn't an issue. It's the basis for putting research facilities on with Nexus, since research buildings have no rally points to worry about.
But I am also not 100% sure that it would require the moving of ctr shift and alt... the most efficient way might just have ctrl shift and alt right right where they are...
Nah. It's not. When the opportunity presents itself to customize keyboard keys, the very FIRST ones to change are Ctrl, Shift, and Alt. I have my Spacebar acting as Shift. You tell me, is it easier to put your pinky on Shift in combination with whatever else you need to do or simply holding your thumb on Spacebar ? Using your pinky requires contortion. You can minimize it, but it's there. Thumb on space is completely natural in combination with other keys.
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Just wait, for TheCore. Then you will know
EDITED for name change
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On May 10 2012 14:04 Kaitlin wrote:
Nah. It's not. When the opportunity presents itself to customize keyboard keys, the very FIRST ones to change are Ctrl, Shift, and Alt. I have my Spacebar acting as Shift. You tell me, is it easier to put your pinky on Shift in combination with whatever else you need to do or simply holding your thumb on Spacebar ? Using your pinky requires contortion. You can minimize it, but it's there. Thumb on space is completely natural in combination with other keys.
This is actually a really good point out. I currently have Alt acting as Shift and found that to be a big improvement because I'm more comfortable with using my thumb to hit Alt and using my fingers to reach control groups or QWERASD for camera locations. Space would make it a lot easier. I currently have space rebound to hotkey 9. Maybe I'll give this a try.
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EPT
