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On June 25 2012 15:55 Belial88 wrote:
MLG Finals DRG vs Alicia Set1.
DRG REACHES 80 SUPPLY!
Crazy right? As impossible as it sounds, and as amazing as it seems already, DRG's macro has actually improved a lot in the last couple months.
So we saw in the GSL Genius vs DRG finals that DRG was consistently reaching 70+ supply, although he had a few games where he was below 70, I think 68 on daybreak due to early aggression.
On a recent stream game, however, he reached 81 supply at the 8:00 mark, and this is when a 4 gate style pressure of some sort hit around 7:30, and forced him to make roaches and units around then and he had to pull drones off his third around 7:30 (he keeps it, but loses due to close spawn entombed about 10 minutes later).
In the MLG finals, DRG was consistently 70+ supply, unlike the GSL finals, and he hit 75+ most of them, and 80+ a few times. If you go over his recent GSTL games and GSL games, he is appearing to hit over 75+ in all his ZvP now, and 80+ many times.
I didn't think it was possible to go 80+, and it was quite the benchmark when DRG his 78 in the genius finals.
Here's some observations I made of his games:
- Getting pylon blocked costs zerg (and toss) about 3-5 supply
- DRG does not make a 3rd queen pre-emptively, but rather, when the third finishes, he makes the 3rd queen there. This is different from what he did in the Genius vs DRG GSL finals, when he made his queens early.
- DRG tends to only make 2 lings at the start instead of 4, but tends to make 4 more lings around 30 supply. A little risky if someone pylon blocks your third, but a gamble he takes...
- DRG makes his 2nd queen before third. DRG seems to take a little bit later of a third than most zergs, as most take third before 2nd queen. DRG sends a drone out around 20 supply to the third, and takes it at 22-24.
- DRG takes 3xGas at 6:30+, usually 6:40-6:45. I think this really boosts his econ more than the 2x gas style, because you'll notice DRG hits 50+ supply at the 6:00 mark, whereas most zergs hit that at 7:00 mark.
- Most Zergs make 3 overlords at once at ~50 supply.
He also seems to make overlords, at 36+ supply, when he reaches cap. So an overlord at 36/44, then when he hits 44/44, he makes another one, and he's jsut at 44/44 for a split second as that earlier overlord finshes, and he constantly makes an overlord when he reaches cap from this point onward.
and as I stated earlier, DRG does not maynard workers, he rallies from main to nat right before it pops so drones arrive when it finishes, then rallies to third instead of maynarding.
I've seen kinda the same thing in Stephano stream, he rally his drone to the new base when it's necesarry, and re rally when he takes gas or make structure. The only time I've seen him maynarding is when he has to take the third before the second base, depending on how much delayed his base was. About the third queen timing, it might gives you a better economy, but I have the feeling that it muse really delay your creep spread, which could be problematic against stargate.
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Basically, the way i go is +1 4 gate attack - i think this is by far the best toss opener as you HAVE to force something other than drones. All other openers (4 gas, 3 gas) are basically waaay too passive and put the ball in zergs court.
This attack puts you REALLY far behind if Zerg responds correctly with just a 6:30 roach warren when he sees no gas at your natural.
I wouldn't say it's an autowin for Zerg, but I'd say it's about as close as you can come to one. There's a reason you don't see it in pro play anymore.
That said, if it works for you, keep doing it. It's definitely strong, and there is a reason why it was popular for a while
Like the 3 delayed gas ? What are the risks doing something like this ? If i understand, he takes the 3 gas and the RW at the same time ?
Just stylistic, for the most part. I think your first 100 gas will be a little later with this style, but just by a tiny bit.
Also quick question to belial
If you scout +1 zealot warpgates coming, how many drones do you expect to cut (or what supply at 8:00?)
Also, what if he goes nexus forge gate (all on 17) and gets out his zealot at 7:30, whats your plan then? How many drones/supply do you expect to have then?
If you scout +1 zealot 4 gate pressure coming, you probably cut drones around 50. You still should be around 70 supply, but you just have roaches and lings instead of drones. If you respond correctly though, Toss will be really far behind, as he has no tech, and only 4 gates, and no sentries.
If you go nexus forge gate and gets out a zealot at 7:30.... i dont know what you mean, the 4 gate +1 will still hit at about 8:00 since you delayed your tech for more econ, and the core still is down at the same time as forge/nexus.
He didn't take the roach warren, he saw with his 2 overlords sacrfice (yes on top of that 80 supply in 8 minutes, he's able to afford 2 overlords sacrifice !) the robotic and the 2 gas in the natural.
He decided that making roach wasn't the best answer for this protoss build and thus decided to plan mutas.
really? im going to look again at those games, very cool.
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Dam, dude, I'd buy you a beer if you were in Ukraine.
I couldn't take a game off protoss for two seasons, even though I didn't practice much, I played well when I did play. I slid from higher masters to mid to low to diamond because I just lost every game against toss (and also because of Skyrim and D3). Somehow I was convinced that 60 probes was enough against protoss. As I think about it right now I don't even know where I got this idea, maybe because while expecting an attack I started stacking combat units early. Anyway, I fixed my drone count, got to 80 supply in 8 minutes (yeah I can do that because diamond tosses are pretty nub and 4 zerglings is enough to terrorize them for 8 minutes). And then at a 10 minute mark protoss looked like a baby to me. My BLs came out before he had the second colossus. The other game I went up to 100 drones against toss and had the most fun when I ran over zealots+archons with 4 waves of 200 zerglings :D
You brought SC fun back into my life, thank you!
P.S. Where did the term "maynard" come from? Keynes reference? I'm just curious, can't find it in any dictionary.
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On June 26 2012 17:42 Reasonable wrote:
P.S. Where did the term "maynard" come from? Keynes reference? I'm just curious, can't find it in any dictionary.
It came from a BW player called Maynard who was the first to bring drone to his new base.
Your welcome 
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On June 26 2012 18:59 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 17:42 Reasonable wrote:
P.S. Where did the term "maynard" come from? Keynes reference? I'm just curious, can't find it in any dictionary. It came from a BW player called Maynard who was the first to bring drone to his new base. Your welcome
Pffft lol thanks. At least they didn't name Attack-Move command after a guy who first did that. If his name was Jack... don't jack your zealots onto the queen!
I expected something more sophisticated. I thought it was after John Maynard Keynes, the father of macro-economics. It would be cooler that way.
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On June 26 2012 03:01 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Basically, the way i go is +1 4 gate attack - i think this is by far the best toss opener as you HAVE to force something other than drones. All other openers (4 gas, 3 gas) are basically waaay too passive and put the ball in zergs court. This attack puts you REALLY far behind if Zerg responds correctly with just a 6:30 roach warren when he sees no gas at your natural. I wouldn't say it's an autowin for Zerg, but I'd say it's about as close as you can come to one. There's a reason you don't see it in pro play anymore. That said, if it works for you, keep doing it. It's definitely strong, and there is a reason why it was popular for a while Show nested quote +Like the 3 delayed gas ? What are the risks doing something like this ? If i understand, he takes the 3 gas and the RW at the same time ? Just stylistic, for the most part. I think your first 100 gas will be a little later with this style, but just by a tiny bit. Show nested quote +
Also quick question to belial
If you scout +1 zealot warpgates coming, how many drones do you expect to cut (or what supply at 8:00?)
Also, what if he goes nexus forge gate (all on 17) and gets out his zealot at 7:30, whats your plan then? How many drones/supply do you expect to have then?
If you scout +1 zealot 4 gate pressure coming, you probably cut drones around 50. You still should be around 70 supply, but you just have roaches and lings instead of drones. If you respond correctly though, Toss will be really far behind, as he has no tech, and only 4 gates, and no sentries. If you go nexus forge gate and gets out a zealot at 7:30.... i dont know what you mean, the 4 gate +1 will still hit at about 8:00 since you delayed your tech for more econ, and the core still is down at the same time as forge/nexus. Show nested quote +He didn't take the roach warren, he saw with his 2 overlords sacrfice (yes on top of that 80 supply in 8 minutes, he's able to afford 2 overlords sacrifice !) the robotic and the 2 gas in the natural.
He decided that making roach wasn't the best answer for this protoss build and thus decided to plan mutas. really? im going to look again at those games, very cool.
What i meant was if he has 4 warping zealots with +1, warping in at 7:30 (instead of 8:00)
It's disappointing to hear it's basically unused now. I hate playing in such a way i allow zerg to macro nothing but drones freely until 8 minutes, it just feels like an absolute losing proposition to me.
What do you reccomend protoss play for the first 8-9 minutes should be geared towards?
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^ You should submit a replay, because I've never seen anyone warp in a full 30 seconds earlier than 8:00 off a FFE...
There's nothing wrong with 'allowing' zerg to macro freely until 8 minute, you can't really stop it. That would be like zerg saying "I hate letting toss take an expansion off just a forge". Besides some drastic all-in that can be completely stopped when scouted, there isn't anything you can do to stop it.
You know, I've been running into Toss on certain maps, like Cloud Kingdom, who take a super fast third off 1 gate or 1 gate 1 robo, and use 2-3 cannons and wall-offs to secure their third that's taken at like 7-9 minute. I always felt there was nothing I could do to stop it, and I can't, as zerg drones up to 8:30.
I would 'recommend' for Toss to do some sort of robo opening, either 6-8 gates for a timing or 3-5 gates for an expansion, and play off zerg not knowing exactly which variation you are doing, and push out with your first two immortals around 9:30 or take your expansion around 8-9:00. That seems to be the standard these days. Toss can definitely keep up with Zerg in the macro game, I'm pretty sure most Zergs complain more about lategame Toss than mid-game Toss.
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http://replayfu.com/r/N4GwBp
I didn't really optimise this (i forgot probes for a short bit after my gates, i also forgot to spend some chrono on forge), but you get the idea. A good player can get the warpin maybe even earlier, but its definitely around a 7:30 warpin with this build.
Cons are obviously, no room to pylon block the hatchery
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On June 27 2012 04:24 Belial88 wrote:You know, I've been running into Toss on certain maps, like Cloud Kingdom, who take a super fast third off 1 gate or 1 gate 1 robo, and use 2-3 cannons and wall-offs to secure their third that's taken at like 7-9 minute. I always felt there was nothing I could do to stop it, and I can't, as zerg drones up to 8:30.
I can see this pattern playing out to its logical extreme.
When protoss realized they couldn't deny zerg's fast expand off one base, they started fast expanding.
When zerg realized they couldn't deny protoss's fast expand off two base, they started taking a fast third.
As protoss is realizing they can't deny zerg's fast third, they are starting to take a fast third.
Zergs will learn that the best answer is to rush a fourth base.
By next year, I expect to see the matchup devolve into who can be the first to hit 200 workers.
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Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 05:03 BrTarolg wrote:http://replayfu.com/r/N4GwBpI didn't really optimise this (i forgot probes for a short bit after my gates, i also forgot to spend some chrono on forge), but you get the idea. A good player can get the warpin maybe even earlier, but its definitely around a 7:30 warpin with this build. Cons are obviously, no room to pylon block the hatchery
You went nexus, forge, gate, 2nd pylon. That seemed greedy as fuck. I think a standard 14 pool could punish that?
I don't know. Maybe try the build going a more mild, nexus first, forge, cannon, then gate and 2nd pylon? I mean I know you could maybe get away with that in a real game, but I don't know. That could definitely be a large part of how you hit 7:30 complete warp gate.
You also didn't make a 2nd unit out of your gateway. You would've just died if anyone did any sort of all-in, roach or baneling based. I would imagine in a real game, you would probably make a sentry, or send out the zealot and then make a 2nd zealot.
Your second warp in is at like 7:50, which is a more reasonable timing. Your initial warp in of 4 zealots is kind of like if you just pushed out with 3 units from gateway.
i dont know. very cute though, i think a combination of how many corners you cut and how greedy your build was allowed you to shave a few seconds off, but in a real game I think zerg who has roaches popping at 8:00 from his 6:30 roach warren will still defend it, just the same as if it was a 4 gate +1 done from a more standard/safe opening. Interesting to see how tangible that nexus first and greedier stuff was though, I'll definitely take that into account in future games when playing Toss who go nexus first!
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Very nice guide, definitely useful up until the high diamond level.
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On June 27 2012 12:51 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 05:03 BrTarolg wrote:http://replayfu.com/r/N4GwBpI didn't really optimise this (i forgot probes for a short bit after my gates, i also forgot to spend some chrono on forge), but you get the idea. A good player can get the warpin maybe even earlier, but its definitely around a 7:30 warpin with this build. Cons are obviously, no room to pylon block the hatchery You went nexus, forge, gate, 2nd pylon. That seemed greedy as fuck. I think a standard 14 pool could punish that? I don't know. Maybe try the build going a more mild, nexus first, forge, cannon, then gate and 2nd pylon? I mean I know you could maybe get away with that in a real game, but I don't know. That could definitely be a large part of how you hit 7:30 complete warp gate. You also didn't make a 2nd unit out of your gateway. You would've just died if anyone did any sort of all-in, roach or baneling based. I would imagine in a real game, you would probably make a sentry, or send out the zealot and then make a 2nd zealot. Your second warp in is at like 7:50, which is a more reasonable timing. Your initial warp in of 4 zealots is kind of like if you just pushed out with 3 units from gateway. i dont know. very cute though, i think a combination of how many corners you cut and how greedy your build was allowed you to shave a few seconds off, but in a real game I think zerg who has roaches popping at 8:00 from his 6:30 roach warren will still defend it, just the same as if it was a 4 gate +1 done from a more standard/safe opening. Interesting to see how tangible that nexus first and greedier stuff was though, I'll definitely take that into account in future games when playing Toss who go nexus first!
*always* nexus first is safe vs 14 pool
As it stands, your cannon is no later if you get nexus, forge, gate, pylon all on 17 ( as you saw i built my cannon as soon as the forge finished)
Also in terms of unit's built, i can get a sentry, or a stalker or w/e. There is plenty of room to allocate resources however you want. There is also the option to pull guys off gas if you want to have more minerals for more units (not reccommended). I havn't optimised it. Usually i feel safe just getting zealot zealot or zealot stalker when seeing a 3rd base, otherwise i'll do something else
One of the good things about the build is the obvious fast warpgate which is handy vs a lot of all in variants, depending on untis built.
I also personally think nexus first should be automatic, and that you should be delaying your cannon as late as possible to get down an earlier gateway always. You can always drop a forge and wall off on a scout, the only thing the force does is let you get a cannon in time - so technically as long as your cannon is in time your forge can come whenever you want.
Vs hatch first i often go nexus - gate - forge, and i might even skip the cannon until later and you can get some 7:00 +1 warpin timings instead.
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^ Nexus first is definitely safe against 14 pool. Casters are dumb when they say it isn't, or "oh snap hes being greedy!", but going nexus, forge, gate, 2nd pylon, is as greedy as you can be and is not safe.
There are smarter and better Toss players than me out there, but I think you probably need to incorporate something like a pylon block to make sure lings dont come in and screw you up. You couldn't do that greedy of a nexus first against a zerg who makes 6 lings when he sees you make a gateway instead of cannon first.
I dont think anything you are saying is wrong, I just think that nexus, forge, gate, 2nd pylon, then cannon, is a bit too greedy and lings will get in against that. If you reactively make a cannon earlier, that's fine, but I don't think the exact build, as you did it, would work in a real game. I could be wrong, but I know I have reactively made lings against people who didn't make a cannon after their nexus, forge, and got the lings in. Things like nexus, forge, gate.
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On June 27 2012 16:51 Belial88 wrote:
^ Nexus first is definitely safe against 14 pool. Casters are dumb when they say it isn't, or "oh snap hes being greedy!", but going nexus, forge, gate, 2nd pylon, is as greedy as you can be and is not safe.
There are smarter and better Toss players than me out there, but I think you probably need to incorporate something like a pylon block to make sure lings dont come in and screw you up. You couldn't do that greedy of a nexus first against a zerg who makes 6 lings when he sees you make a gateway instead of cannon first.
I dont think anything you are saying is wrong, I just think that nexus, forge, gate, 2nd pylon, then cannon, is a bit too greedy and lings will get in against that. If you reactively make a cannon earlier, that's fine, but I don't think the exact build, as you did it, would work in a real game. I could be wrong, but I know I have reactively made lings against people who didn't make a cannon after their nexus, forge, and got the lings in. Things like nexus, forge, gate.
Whether i make the gate or pylon after have absolutely no impact on the cannon timing because the cannon is build as soon as the forge is finished...?
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Your cannon is not built when the forge is finished.
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On June 27 2012 17:52 Belial88 wrote:
Your cannon is not built when the forge is finished.
It's not? D:
I'll have to make another replay
I know i can reactively make a cannon when his lings come out depending on the number of lings and a pylon wall but yeah T_T
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General rule of thumb is if they pool/hatch w/o getting lings out first you're safe to delay cannon. For the most part zergs will be hunting a probe and not sending all of them straight to the base regardless if they haven't found the probe yet, and even in the instance that they do P should have a probe blocking a zealot space to drop a pylon to delay if need be.
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On June 27 2012 17:52 Belial88 wrote:
Your cannon is not built when the forge is finished.
Depends on the build. If u chrono probes 3 times and build the nexus on 17 and forge on 17, u can put a pylon on 17 and a gate on 18 before the forge is finished. Your forge finishes on 18-19 supply right when you have 150 minerals. As far as its safety is concerned, if u build ur 2nd pylon as part of ur wall, u can block one space entrance long enough for cannon to be ready. But if u go for a forge gate cyber wall, if the zerg goes 6 lings off the 14 pool and send them straight to your base, they can get past before the cannon finishes unless they build a 2nd gate to block it off. The second gate hurts ur build quite a bit and if u are doing the standard nexus first gas timings and constant probes, u will only have about 70-80 minerals when the lings arrive so it's difficult to do reactively without cutting probes in case he does try to go for the run-by.
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I go triple chrono, 17 nexus, forge, gate, pylon. On most maps you can complete the wall with another pylon if the lings really are too fast, though off a 14 pool this shouldn't happen.
You have to do a little bit of trickery with your mineral usage as to have enough to get double gas + cyber, and your chrono's are to be saved for your cyber and forge
I'm going to try and optimise it later
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MC's one gas 7 gate warps in just after 7:30, and could make it down to that mark I believe. He used it against Stephano at Red Bull in games 2 and 3, or 3 and 4? don't quite remember.
As to the Maynarding, I've never really seen why it's done so frequently. If you transfer 5 drones at one, or rally them as they build, you are losing the same amount of mining time, only that you are losing it all at once, and much earlier in your build by maynarding. Of course it still has uses, but I rally whenever possible.
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EPT
