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I know i can reactively make a cannon when his lings come out depending on the number of lings and a pylon wall but yeah T_T
Right, and then you aren't doing nexus, forge, gateway, 2nd pylon, then cannon, you are doing nexus, forge, cannon or nexus, forge, gateway with paused probe production into cannon or something. And that would affect the timing.
As to the Maynarding, I've never really seen why it's done so frequently. If you transfer 5 drones at one, or rally them as they build, you are losing the same amount of mining time, only that you are losing it all at once, and much earlier in your build by maynarding. Of course it still has uses, but I rally whenever possible.
Maynarding is only bad with fast third because of 3 bases taken in quick succession, and the way zerg's macro works with making multiple drones at once instead of one at a time. It's better to maynard with other races, or if you take your natural and third later (like if you get pylon blocked and do some sort of 2 base lair style, although you might have the income and larva by then to just instantly saturate your third instead of having to maynard too). The idea behind it is still good though. I think the reason maynarding hurts so much when going fast third, is because of the quick succession of 2 extra bases, zerg making multiple drones at once with larva inject, and because it's so early in the game that a small difference of mining time and drones in the early game leads to a huge impact at the 8-9:00 mark, so it's worth it to hurt your mining later on, if it allows you just a little more mining early on (ie not transfering workers but instead rallying new ones).
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On June 28 2012 08:20 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +I know i can reactively make a cannon when his lings come out depending on the number of lings and a pylon wall but yeah T_T Right, and then you aren't doing nexus, forge, gateway, 2nd pylon, then cannon, you are doing nexus, forge, cannon or nexus, forge, gateway with paused probe production into cannon or something. And that would affect the timing. Show nested quote +As to the Maynarding, I've never really seen why it's done so frequently. If you transfer 5 drones at one, or rally them as they build, you are losing the same amount of mining time, only that you are losing it all at once, and much earlier in your build by maynarding. Of course it still has uses, but I rally whenever possible. Maynarding is only bad with fast third because of 3 bases taken in quick succession, and the way zerg's macro works with making multiple drones at once instead of one at a time. It's better to maynard with other races, or if you take your natural and third later (like if you get pylon blocked and do some sort of 2 base lair style, although you might have the income and larva by then to just instantly saturate your third instead of having to maynard too). The idea behind it is still good though. I think the reason maynarding hurts so much when going fast third, is because of the quick succession of 2 extra bases, zerg making multiple drones at once with larva inject, and because it's so early in the game that a small difference of mining time and drones in the early game leads to a huge impact at the 8-9:00 mark, so it's worth it to hurt your mining later on, if it allows you just a little more mining early on (ie not transfering workers but instead rallying new ones).
3 chrono, 17 nexus
17 forge
17 gateway
17 pylon
cannon as soon as the forge is done
1 gas before gateway done
cyber as soon as gateway is done
Definitely doable...
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^ msg me belial.869@na and we can test this real quick. but this is regardless anyways, a 7 pool autowins against you too. my point is you are doing a greedy opener, that's why your wg is quicker.
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At work atm (usually get home around 7:30pm UK time) but i'll see if i still got access to some NA acc's
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On June 28 2012 05:59 ImUnemployed wrote:
As to the Maynarding, I've never really seen why it's done so frequently. If you transfer 5 drones at one, or rally them as they build, you are losing the same amount of mining time, only that you are losing it all at once, and much earlier in your build by maynarding. Of course it still has uses, but I rally whenever possible.
I suspect that a lot of ex-broodwar players maynard simply out of habit, without reevaluating why they do it, and people who learn from them pick up the habit without evaluating if it's good or not.
Maynarding was a lot more important in Broodwar because the dropoff in mining from oversaturation wasn't as binary. You started losing efficiency earlier and capped out later. Therefore, maynarding workers was the most effective way to mitigate the economic bump you take from expanding.
In SC2, I feel like there is much more incentive to time your expansions together with the saturation of your bases because the benefit of workers past saturation is so small, and there is almost no dropoff before the hard cap, which makes maynarding something you just do when your expansion timing has been delayed.
Unlike Broodwar, the mining of my 9th-16th workers isn't any better at my natural than it is at my main, while I get almost 0 benefit from my 17th worker if I keep it at my main.
And because of this, it follows that Terran and Protoss will have more opportunities to maynard than zerg will, because they will be forced to keep building workers past saturation even if their expansion isn't finished building yet, while zerg doesn't have to start droning a base until it's built.
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On June 28 2012 17:44 Belial88 wrote:
^ msg me belial.869@na and we can test this real quick. but this is regardless anyways, a 7 pool autowins against you too. my point is you are doing a greedy opener, that's why your wg is quicker.
Doesn't a pylon scout arrive in time to not nexus first on a 2 player map? That's been my experience as zerg anyway, maybe a 7pool is faster than I am imagining in my head.
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^ Maybe, but you certainly aren't going to do a nexus first anymore, and if you did, you would autolose. Which is why I think his build isn't too honest, he cut just a shitton of corners.
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Hi,
I really love this guide, but always struggled in the lategame. Now as I switched over to the Infestor/Spine turtle play style I got much better in this aspect, but much worser in defending all-ins. I just never know, whether to build Spines/Infestation Pit or pump out Zergling/Roach. I also don't know wether I should get +1 Melee or +1 Range. As it seems to be better to get +1 Range to defend the all-ins but +1 Melee is better for the turtle style.
So should I always get the infestation pit right as the lair finishes? Or just when the Protoss takes the third?
Which upgrade should I get first?
What should I do if I crush his 3rd with some lings and Roaches? Should I throw down the Infestation Pit, or just Max Out on Roaches and Lings and continue attacking and containing? Because it often happens that the Protoss transitions into an 2 base all-in after his 3rd gone down. But sometimes they will try to put it down again. So I really don't know how to act in such a situation.
I watched the Day9 daily on the Stephano turtle style and it seems like he throws down the infestation pit always immediatly.
Edit: I'm Mid-High Diamond if it's important.
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I like the guide, but there's only 1 zerg build or strategy in here, is that all zerg can do in zvp or is this not a complete guide?
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What do you do if protoss gets his first 2 gas at natural? You can't scout anymore and they can do a early 4 gate/6 gate without you knowing
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If he takes his first 2 gas at natural, I don't think he will be able to search for warpgate when his core finished right?
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how would I defend an 6gate robo all in? It seems that +1 zealots just massacre my lings when i get them near the toss while my roaches get stuck in FFs and get hell rained on them by those immortals... and i can't even retreat cuz half of my units get stuck in the ffs....
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Check out the "Nestea anti-immortal/sentry build' thread. I don't think there's a common answer yet on immortal/sentry all-ins yet. I'm not sure it's completely figure out, but... seems to be a few ways.
1. I talk about immortal/sentry in this guide - you just max out on roach/ling at 8-8:30+, engage well.
2. When he pushes out, the roach/ling you have just base trades while you mass spines in your nat and give up your third (pull the drones when he arrives).
3. Rush mutas (as talked about in that thread) with the same idea - mass spines in nat, base trade.
But i talk about it in this guide, there's also a very good replay example in this thread on how to beat it.
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max at 200? wow lol at 8 mins i usually only have 120-160 ish supply. meybes it is my macro
So its pretty much like against marine medic in BW? jsut mass stationary def
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On July 13 2012 03:53 STYDawn wrote:
max at 200? wow lol at 8 mins i usually only have 120-160 ish supply. meybes it is my macro
So its pretty much like against marine medic in BW? jsut mass stationary def
He means at 8-8:30 just constantly produce roach/ling, not actually max out at that time (which is impossible  )
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Dude if you have 120-160 supply at 8 minutes you should definitely start competing. That's around 40-80 supply higher than DRG is at that timing!
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The replay where you hit 83 supply by 8 minutes is linked to a 7 pool.
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EPT
