|
I do cover it. Toss 1 base -> (Proxy)2 gate
+ Show Spoiler +If you just overlord scout, it can be deceiving when you see an empty base with maybe no gas being taken, or no wall-in to the ramp at his main, and you haven't seen yet that he has no pylon on the low ground at his natural. While seeing no pylon on the low ground (after seeing he didn't wall-in at ramp) is a dead giveaway to double 10/10 proxy gate, on some maps you just may not see that in time. It's okay, your 14 pool build will be fine, even if you made a hatch at 16.
As soon as your pool pops, make 2 spines in 'uncomfortable', choked up locations like by the geysers, next to your pool that's by a wall/object, or in your mineral line. If you only make 1, Toss can kill it and you will be screwed. Also, grab your gas asap - get ling speed, and you will be able to crush any remaining forces and just run into his base and autowin. I strongly recommend against roaches - he can go for core, stalkers, and torture your slow roaches, especially if the gates aren't proxied.
You should really cancel your hatch if you planted one, but if he's being an idiot and attacks it, let him attack it and just cancel it at the absolute last second. Even if he kills it, you should be fine. However, you don't NEED to cancel it, you will have enough resources to make enough to hold and make mass speedlings and autowin, and if he kills it you can still end up ahead if you make those 2 spines and keep your drones alive and get ling speed. It's up to you - I'd say it's safer to cancel, it's greedier to keep it but really you'll be ahead whether he kills it or doesn't. Or, you could keep or cancel it based on if he attacks it or not.
If he does not proxy the 2 gate, you can definitely keep your hatchery. It will take damage, but you will uproot your spines and put them down in the nat. There are macro oriented 2 gate openings where they expand right afterwards - just make sure he expands (he won't have stalkers) instead of going core, gas, into 4 gate follow-up, and take your third and threaten with your lings and just be so far ahead of him...
Here's a recent game I played against this as well: http://drop.sc/269037
If he's proxied it you might be a little tight, just do a bit of drone micro. building 3 spines is too much, just make 2. Or, if you go for 3, dont engage with the drones, just run away, let him focus a spine down, then cancel it and now you have 2 spines. Lings and queen will be up soon so that you can push him back.
Dont pull drones to force a cancel. you might need to do mineral walking against the initial zealots until the spines finish, which may need to be fancier the later you realize it's proxy 2 gate, but you should still hold.
|
Yeah I saw that quoted text, but I did what you said and died O.o
Like if you watch the replay and see any major mistakes let me know, but I'm confused. I did drone micro, I mineral walked, I even used the "drone flower of death" thing and he just killed too many drones before the spine finished. Running away is an OK idea, but I think he would've been able to kill most of the spines/a lot of drones either way. I'm just not sure where I went wrong, but it's clear I messed up somewhere. It was then 2 spines and a queen and ~7 drones against 7 or 8 zealots, yeah that fight didn't go well.
I think my pool timing was basically a 15 pool, and I did drone scout so I was a drone behind. The guy I played against is a pro, and says he's used it successfully against other pros (only on Daybreak), but I'm just not sure. Zealots just chew through drones.
Edit: watching the replay now, I'll edit in after
Hmmm...
I only made 2 lings when pool finished, am I supposed to get 15 overlord? I feel that the extra minerals you get from not dronescouting is what enables you to survive. Also, the proxy is about 10 seconds further away than the one in my game. I guess 2 spines + ling/queen is better than 3 spines + queen. Your drone engage was also in a better position, and you got a full surround with drone/ling. I guess I'll just have to play against it again.
|
You lost too many drones micro'ing around early on. Against zealots like that you should avoid engaging. Drones fight pretty well against slowlings. They do terribly against zealots. You just want to stay away from the zealots, using mineral walking to sort of run away. Then he has a choice of either chase the drones, or attack the morphing spines. If he attacks the spines, then you attack with the drones. If he attacks the drones, you run away and let the spines finish up. 3 spines is a little much, I'd rather go with 2, as now it's only 9 probes to 12 drones with 3 spines made.
You make 2 spines because your going to be forced to cancel one of them against proxy 2 gate. But at least the other one will finish. I personally like to have 2 spines so I can just counterattack right away when lings first pop but whatever. So maybe make 3 spines, but cancel the 3rd if it's about to finish.
You shouldn't try to drone flower against zealots though. All the fancy micro you try to do results in you losing 7 drones which just put you too far behind to win.
If you know you are being proxy 2 gated, your pool is better placed blocking off the mineral line, so the spines can better cover it (they should finish before he can focus it down anyways).
|
Ok, thanks for the tips. I was able to hold a proxy 2 gate (one that's literally right beside the mineral line) with 12 drones left by building 2 spines and drone microing the way you suggested. I played 4 games against a friend proxy 2gating and won all of them.
Helped a lot, thanks! Zealots do a shitton of DPS though, it's a little scary how quickly they'll kill drones/queen/spine O.o
|
I might be participating in a platinum league tournament soon. So, my question is, as a Platinum, what are the better all-ins I can do in this matchup against other Platinums? There's about a dozen all-ins you've provided, and I'm not sure which ones are the strongest.
|
^ They are all strong. In my personal experience, the ling/baneling all-in has worked the most, because it plays a lot off Toss scouting the third and then thinking they are safe. Which all-in I go for tends to be based on how Toss scouts, but it seems every toss I've played, and all-inned, checks for the third, and you can't really deny a probe mineral walking towards the third. Doing a roach or bane all-in can be great though if you take your third first, and then not take your natural.
Just be careful of what map you do it on, as I've facepalmed once before when I tried to do it on cloud kingdom and saw that a forge/gateway/cyber can make a tight wall-off and the 3 hatch ling/bane all-in only gets like 5 banelings out, which is exactly enough to take down a pylon, and if you wait any longer to get enough banes to break through a bigger building, the sentry is out. Although I've had success a couple times against cannon rushes/ramp blocks with just 10 banelings, getting forcefielded by a single sentry, then just busting down the forge and roflstomping.
Generally, cannons beat roaches, sentries beat banelings. So that's something to keep in mind. Once I played a guy who ramp blocked me, knew I'd be going for an all-in because I had no choice, so he made 3 cannons, but 3 cannons doesn't stop a ling/baneling all-in (it stops a roach all-in cold though). But my overlord was over his natural, I made a roach warren, he made 3 cannons, I cancelled the roach warren when I saw that and decided to go for banes instead. He was a maphacker though, so he made a gateway wall, but the map was condemned ridge and i just needed to bust one pylon to get in and flood his base with lings and just run into his main since cannons don't stop that, only sentries.
But a roach all-in, 2 cannons stop it, sentries and stalkers help against it. Against a baneling all-in, you need sentries or you die. So there's all sorts of room for error there on Toss' part - like he could be being greedy and throw down his tech instead of make that sentry, or he could make a stalker to do pressure/kill overlords (so maybe go for a lign/bane all-in, and float an overlord inside his natural/main right when his core is about to finish so Toss will go for a stalker instead of sentry). And he could just miss the forcefield. And like I said, a couple times I did it when they had sentries but the game was weird because it started with a cannon rush/ramp block and I just had a ton of banes and even though he had sentries, he had spent so much on cannons that he really couldn't have enough in time.
In short to answer your question I like the 3 hatch ling/bane all-in. And when i've done roach all-ins, I've had more success with the IM style ~35 roach warren, speedling all-in instead of the 3-5 roaches from a 20 roach warren, slowling all-in that's more 'common' or leenock styled. Map is an important factor (tighter choke is worse for banes since it means less weak buildings as part of the wall like zealot, pylon).
|
On October 31 2012 13:20 Belial88 wrote:
^ They are all strong. In my personal experience, the ling/baneling all-in has worked the most, because it plays a lot off Toss scouting the third and then thinking they are safe. Which all-in I go for tends to be based on how Toss scouts, but it seems every toss I've played, and all-inned, checks for the third, and you can't really deny a probe mineral walking towards the third. Doing a roach or bane all-in can be great though if you take your third first, and then not take your natural.
Just be careful of what map you do it on, as I've facepalmed once before when I tried to do it on cloud kingdom and saw that a forge/gateway/cyber can make a tight wall-off and the 3 hatch ling/bane all-in only gets like 5 banelings out, which is exactly enough to take down a pylon, and if you wait any longer to get enough banes to break through a bigger building, the sentry is out. Although I've had success a couple times against cannon rushes/ramp blocks with just 10 banelings, getting forcefielded by a single sentry, then just busting down the forge and roflstomping.
Generally, cannons beat roaches, sentries beat banelings. So that's something to keep in mind. Once I played a guy who ramp blocked me, knew I'd be going for an all-in because I had no choice, so he made 3 cannons, but 3 cannons doesn't stop a ling/baneling all-in (it stops a roach all-in cold though). But my overlord was over his natural, I made a roach warren, he made 3 cannons, I cancelled the roach warren when I saw that and decided to go for banes instead. He was a maphacker though, so he made a gateway wall, but the map was condemned ridge and i just needed to bust one pylon to get in and flood his base with lings and just run into his main since cannons don't stop that, only sentries.
But a roach all-in, 2 cannons stop it, sentries and stalkers help against it. Against a baneling all-in, you need sentries or you die. So there's all sorts of room for error there on Toss' part - like he could be being greedy and throw down his tech instead of make that sentry, or he could make a stalker to do pressure/kill overlords (so maybe go for a lign/bane all-in, and float an overlord inside his natural/main right when his core is about to finish so Toss will go for a stalker instead of sentry). And he could just miss the forcefield. And like I said, a couple times I did it when they had sentries but the game was weird because it started with a cannon rush/ramp block and I just had a ton of banes and even though he had sentries, he had spent so much on cannons that he really couldn't have enough in time.
In short to answer your question I like the 3 hatch ling/bane all-in. And when i've done roach all-ins, I've had more success with the IM style ~35 roach warren, speedling all-in instead of the 3-5 roaches from a 20 roach warren, slowling all-in that's more 'common' or leenock styled. Map is an important factor (tighter choke is worse for banes since it means less weak buildings as part of the wall like zealot, pylon).
you can do a roach all-in in the same style as the 3 hatch baneling all in. 6-7 roaches and 20 speedlings with constant speedling reinforcement. Hit 7:30-7:40ish (depends on map. you can cut a roach or two to get it a little faster, and it usually still works)
3 cannons does not hold it. neither does 3 sentries. with the roaches and speedlings you have enough dps to just rip down the forge and any pylons in the wall and just overrun him with zerglings.
i don't know if it's better or worse than baneling, but it still basically automatically kills protoss who don't know it is coming (which is every protoss, because they stop scouting after seeing a hatch at the 3rd).
|
Thanks so much for this guide
much <3
|
On ZvP ladder close positions I was planning to try the two base infestor ling timing attack.
My question is, is it better to skip double evo +1+1 for earlier lair and earlier infestors?
It means my attack will come earlier but my lings will have no upgrades.. I'd like to ask which is better in the current metagame (NF + robo + gateways).
|
it can make for a strong timing attack to hit right when upgrades finish, but it might cost you too much. I dont know about timing, maybe 1/1 will come at sime time you have your 5 infestors at his front of base, maybe it will force you to wait, youll have to test it out. Really depends on how the timings work out, 1/1 is a strong upgrade advantage if you can hit right when they kick in and not be delayed.
i dont think there's a right or wrong on that one, just more about your own style and preference. It's more important that you do it well, than if you get 1/1 or not.
|
I was told today that the immortal/sentry all-in can be followed up by a 3-base Colossus push if the Protoss keeps 2 Immortals and the Warp Prism alive for prism harass. Is this correct? If not, how do you end the game after successfully holding it off if the Protoss doesn't gg out? Note: This assumes you held it off without losing a lot of drones / your third or anything, only army units.
|
With the recent infestor nerf, i feel like zerg cant go anymore to BL/infestor/corruptor without having taken a huge lead in the midgame. Playing turtle zerg is not possible anymore, and doing nice transitions while pressuring the toss seems necessary.
What are your opinion about that ?
|
My friend, I can consistently hit 70 supply with a 3 base build with 3 gas at 6:10. Its really easy.
Does that mean my macro is code A quality? LOL. I am working on making the macro better until maxed out though.
Btw, I think in both WOL and HOTS, its much better to go double upgrades into ling/bane/ultra vs the Colossus mass gateway attack at 15 minutes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
