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On August 15 2012 20:17 Salivanth wrote:
Just read your update on Immortal/Sentry. Dude. How are you not a blue poster yet? Your posts are so good that I literally switched to Zerg to take advantage of them. Thank you so much for all the hard work you put into these guides, and continue to put into them months after they first come out. You may not be the best player on TL, but I think you're the best guide-writer on here. Even CecilSunkure, my Toss idol when I played Toss doesn't come close, even though he's probably higher ranked.
His build knowledge is insane. Team liquid needs to hire this guy for TLO, Haypro, Ret, Sheth, and Zenio so that he can do full-time build research for them.
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Where is the update on dealing with immortal/sentry? Is it the bit in the "How to React" section? I could really use some help on combatting this particular build. x.x'
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Yes, it is in the How to React section, under Immortal/Sentry. It's in the same section it used to be, but the content has been altered significantly.
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Check out the replay section (Fast third vs FFE) - there's 3 new replays specifically on Immortal/Sentry.
Thanks Orek and Salivanth for the kind words. My ban/warn history is not exactly perfect. I was banned recently for shitting on mac's in some weird thread where the OP said he didn't want anyone shitting on mac's, but why do no pro gamers use macs instead of pcs, and I guess some people didn't want to hear the reason pro gamers dont use macs is because....
This guide was featured in an episode of Pony Tales though, by NrGMonk's recommendation.
I don't think much of what I put in my guides is really anything higher level players don't know already. Literally, the skill difference between me and someone like Haypro is larger than a bronze and myself. Pros have a ridiculous amount of knowledge. I often will PM pros here on TL after I've watched a particularly interesting series with them in it, and they often will reply, and just drop huge knowledge bombs. I've talked to Nerchio, Darkforce, Slush, etc...most of these pro games have a shitton of mental mind games going on between the 2 players in the match, but the observers, casters, and audience are none the wiser about it. I'm sure you guys have heard idra or qxc talk about the game, they aren't particularly smarter than everyone else, it's that every pro gamer has that kind of knowledge going on.
Try PMing a pro zerg on here if you have questions about what he does in his games, I'm sure they'll respond to you if you are nice.
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Wow. I knew that a pro would know far more than a mid-high master, but I didn't know it was THAT big, nor did I ever expect them to actually answer those questions! (Though frankly, it has never occurred to me to ask.) Would you say the same thing with the Idra/qxc situation goes on with your rank? Namely, every (or at least most) mid-high master Zergs have the knowledge to write a guide like yours, but you happen to put in the effort required to do so?
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Yea, I imagine most 1.2k points Masters Zergs already know everything in my guides. There might be a few tips or tricks that may be new to them, but for the most part they already know all of this.
I imagine most other higher level zergs haven't written out a guide like this because they aren't full of themselves. Also, I don't think they care when people post bad information or shitty guides and then get praised by people simply because it's the only guide on X subject. That is kind of a pet peeve for me.
I lurked TL for a while, but I joined when I needed help to build a PC when I knew nothing about building PCs. I did a ton of research on the subject of how PC's work - I didn't have a big budget, I'm a very picky person, and I wanted the absolute best, because it was my own money. My way of giving back to the community, was writing a thorough guide on how to build a budget PC, and what you need to know to do so. I still think it's a great guide, and despite it being 2 years, it's still all relevant since PC hardware hasn't changed at all in the last 2 years (given how much bulldozer flopped and nvidia/intel stuff that's new is so goddamn expensive), but it was closed by a mod.
I then posted the ling/infestor guide, it's just a short guide that is not viable anymore, when I was in diamond, whatever. I posted the 6 pool guide as a response to Bad Habit's guide on how to 6 pool, because I felt that it was possible to beat any type of 6/7/8 pool with hatch first, it just wasn't proven yet. So I spent about a month of playing with masters volunteers to come up with ways to beat 6/7/8 pool of all types with hatch first.
I wrote this guide in response to someone who wrote a guide on how to go fast third vs FFE, but his guide was complete shit, and he was a total moron, yet people were praising his shitty guide and he was talking shit because he said 'why dont you write a better guide if you are so smart'. He's permabanned now, and people started to post in his thread saying how shitty his guide was after the first page. I eventually totally overhauled this guide to a complete zvp guide, and then I wrote a zvt guide in similar fashion because zvt is pretty easy and simple, imo, in terms of understanding.
Zvz metagame changes way too quickly, so I have written a few guides on it but they get outdated very quickly, unfortunately. that, and the fact that there are 3 viable openings in zvz make just the early game itself incredibly difficult to cover in a well-formatted manner. I'll probably write a guide on early game zvz, and then update it, like this one, to all of zvz.
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Well, I really hope to see it. If I write a really terrible guide to early-game ZvZ and post it, will you get it out faster? 
[G] Defensive 8 Pool - The Key To Success coming up!
Spoiler: The build begins 8 pool, 10 2x spine crawler, 10 Overlord.
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I wonder wether this:
When you take your gas is a big deal. If you notice you bank gas in your games, chances are you are taking gas too quickly, or too much gas. The standard gas timing tends to be 6:00, or right around when third finishes. (...)
If you like to go by supply, that means 2 gas is roughly taken around 50 supply.
might be a typo or so, because I've never ever seen any Zerg hitting 50 supply @ 6:00. Stephano normally hits 40 or so, and I normally hit 36. (actually I have no idea why, because I just can't find the difference) So I don't think it's possible to reach 50 supply @6:00. And getting 2 gases at 50 supply might be a little bit late i think. Because Lair, Speed, and attack will be delayed quite a bit. So I think it should either be 3 gas at 50 supply or 2 gas at 40 supply. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm only low Masters.
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^ No, most Zergs hit a little above 40 around 6:00. But you should be around 50 by 6:30. Zergs these days seem to be erring on even later gas, so if anything, i'd edit it to say 2xgas at 6:30, than 6:00. It's just a rough estimate though for supply, but it's still true - around 50 supply, 2xgas is taken total (3 gas later, 1 gas earlier than another later, 2 gas around a little before or after then, etc).
2 gases at 50 supply these days is actually very standard. Seems most zergs take 2-3 gases at 6:30 or later. I've seen some get 2, some get 3. Your lair, speed, should not be too late, and for the most part, Zerg isn't relying on tech to hold toss pressures, as lair won't be done for most gateway pressures, and those that do hit a bit later, you won't have upgrades or tech out in time likely. Blink all-in, stargate gateway, warp gate pressure, etc, you wont have roach speed if not lair against these pressures most of the time. Hold initially with roach/ling, and when roach speed and ling speed finish up, you are in a position to push back, but you already were if you held the pressure. Econ > tech.
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Here are 4 replays of me playing the same person doing the same build (his version of the immortal/sentry all-in) and me failing to defend it with roach/ling. I have read and believe I understand the way this guide explains to deal with the all-in using the method I am attempting to use, but it's still not even close. I am hoping someone can shed some light for me on what I did wrong. I understand my macro is not gosu x2 level, but I really don't think that is the problem, as my opponent's macro isn't pinpoint accurate either. We are both in platinum league, if that matters any. Any advice would really be appreciated.
http://drop.sc/241150
http://drop.sc/241151
http://drop.sc/241152
http://drop.sc/241153
Now, here is one replay of me attempting to do the muta/base race style with great success. I believe my opponent misclicked his army while attacking my natural, but I don't think it would have made much of a difference. (Also, I forgot ling speed. ;D)
http://drop.sc/241154
I would really prefer to be able to hold this all-in without base racing, as I feel it is very gimmicky (especially with mutas, as if I can't reliably scout the robo, it's not a reliable way to handle the all-in or other all-ins that may be coming my way). On that note, any help that anyone can give me to holding the immortal/sentry all-in in a "straight-up" manner with roach/ling is greatly appreciated. I know my macro needs to be good, I know I need to waste forcefields, I know I need to flank. I feel like I'm doing these things reasonably well for my skill level, and am still getting steamrolled when I respond in this manner. Please halp.
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^ Base racing with mutas is not at all gimmicky, you WANT to base race with mutas, that's the entire point of their existence - if the opponent is dumb enough to move out before he has a shitton of cannons in his bases, and AOE like storm along with a ton of stalkers, you WILL win the base race (assuming you didnt lose too many mutas to something like a clutch storm or blink). What's gimmicky is someone pushing out against mutas (like immortal/sentry all-ins...), not mutas owning in a base trade.
Whenever you go mutas, you WANT a base trade. Most Toss these days are not that stupid, so they know when they see mutas, they need to hunker down, get lots of cannons and storm before pushing out. What mutas are bad at, is fighting straight up. So if you go like 200/200 pure 3/3 muta, if a Toss just turtles forever, he will actually win, even if you deny any base his army isn't at, he'll slowly eventually take a fourth, even if you kill his third in the process, and he'll keep adding onto a large 3/3/3 archon/mothership/storm army that will just annihilate even pure broodlord armies and he can win the game. Here's a game I played where this was a problem:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304851
I think that the muta method is a great way to play against robo openers, as if you went roach tech against a Toss who goes robo expand, then it just kind of sucks that you invested in roach speed and a roach warren against a Toss going for a macro game where you will need broodlords asap vs that eventual colossus 3 base push. But mutas, are strong against both.
It is nice knowing how to hold in both ways though - sometimes toss can do something like a 4 gate +1 which will force roaches and might force you not to get spire in time against his robo follow-up, at which point you'll need to rely on roach/ling.
Lair takes a while to make, so you have plenty of time to get that spire against a robo all-in, it should be obvious when toss hasn't taken a third or pushed out by the time your lair is done, if not seeing his sentry count at the natural with the overlord you keep by his gas that is basically set on patrol command to keep peeking into the nat.
I'll check out the first replay you posted in a bit. But if mutas worked for you, don't need to fix what isn't broken right? Mind saying which of the 4 replays you think would be best to watch or something? And yikes, forgetting ling speed? You should always hotkey your spawning pool so you can get speed as soon as you have 100 (just set it to something far off like 6, I use 6 for my evolution chambers and spires for upgrades, but i'll add key tech structures to it too, like pool for speed since you start speed before even getting evos usually, and you can just tab through or just remove the pool later, add infestation pit later, etc).
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I understand that, by going mutas, base trading is ideal. What I'm saying is that I would prefer to not rely on a strategy that plans on base trading. For reasons that you mentioned, mutas won't always be a guaranteed option, based on what the protoss does up to the point that I have lair (i.e., if I have to make roaches). I'd like to be able to hold it with roach/ling. If it's not possible, I think that kind of sucks.
If you are only going to watch one replay, I'd recommend the fourth one in the set of four (on CK). The standalone replay is where I did go mutas. Also, I rarely if ever forget ling speed. I had just decided to attempt a rudimentary version of the fast muta strategy you outline here in the guide one game, and had never practiced it before, which led me to make that silly mistake. The game still turned out in my favor, though.
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Added a rep in 1 base, on cannon rushes. I felt the Naniwa vs Nestea replay wasn't a great example because Naniwa doesn't really dedicate that much into it.
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On August 24 2012 14:42 Belial88 wrote:
Added a rep in 1 base, on cannon rushes. I felt the Naniwa vs Nestea replay wasn't a great example because Naniwa doesn't really dedicate that much into it. Thankyou for the bump instead of just editing the main post. I dont know what I would do if I forgot about this thread.
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^ I update this guide at least once a week, and add about 2-3 new reps a week. This and the ZvT guide. I'll just bump it instead of editing silently. I thought bumping it like that would be bad.
But seriously it'd be bumped like every other day if I bumped whenever I updated this guide. I'll just bump it when major updates happen, something I think is special, or just after a bunch of updates.
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Really? I guess I'll just have to keep re-reading constantly. (Like I just found that apparently the third gets taken at 21-23 supply now!)
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So yesterday I checked my replays against your benchmarks and found out a couple of things. First, my macro was worse than even I had thought, which was in itself sort of impressive. My best ZvP with quick 3 base was 34 Drones at the 8 minute mark, wih 54 supply. Second was that in all of my replays I for some reason, rather than finding out what my opponent was doing I kept building Lings, for an attack that literally never comes. So yeah, that was useful to know.
I'm posting though to thank you for the guide, after a bit of practice at spending Larva, injecting and not over building Overlords I just managed to hit 79 supply at the 8 minute mark with 67 Drones (5 on the way) and was maxed at 11:28 which whilst still not the best in the world of course is a full 2 minutes faster than I've ever reached in the past. Also had a better APM than average too with something to focus on. I just need to get those skills in to ladder now as I was playing vs ai in tests, though I did build 4 Lings and take towers and position Overlords, but it is really cool to see it's possible for even a fairly bad Gold leauger like me to hit that kinda benchmark with a bit of practice.
I don't have any questions or anything really to add, I just wanted to thank you for the OP and the benchmarks especially.
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^ Glad to hear it! Really cool to hear someone has used the information.
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On August 24 2012 16:14 Belial88 wrote:
^ I update this guide at least once a week, and add about 2-3 new reps a week. This and the ZvT guide. I'll just bump it instead of editing silently. I thought bumping it like that would be bad.
But seriously it'd be bumped like every other day if I bumped whenever I updated this guide. I'll just bump it when major updates happen, something I think is special, or just after a bunch of updates.
I was being sarcastic. Your over-bumping is self-indulgent and annoying.
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I don't really bump it, even after major updates. I don't know why you'd say that, you must be confused on other people bumping this thread. Given the recent posts, like yours, i was going to start to though.
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EPT
