EPT
No sarcasm! I'd love to get updates on revisions, rather than have to re-skim the guide every few days.[G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvP! - Page…
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
No sarcasm! I'd love to get updates on revisions, rather than have to re-skim the guide every few days. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Kroz
United States7 Posts
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usethis2
2164 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/ogn_star2/b/330233995 I was amazed that he indeed fit your description, hitting 78 supply with 61 drones at exactly 8:00 mark. But he was quite ling heavy. Wonder if it would have worked out that way had he made roaches instead of lings. (Though I understand that he had to use some drones for spores) And he was very drone-light throughout the game. Only 64 drones for the rest of the game and I frankly think he was quite sloppy. He was lucky that Jangbi was even sloppier. | ||
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Hati
France15 Posts
Do you have critical timing to spot in order to recognize this build ? I have seen a lot of toss do differents things on this build order, like forge activate very early or very late with a lot of chronoboost, 4 gaz at 6m30 or 4 gaz a 7min, zealot push before the blink stalker push, or not ... oh and thx a lot for this guide btw, it's really interesting =) | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
How do you deal with blink stalker push ? can u play muta mass spine trade base (or just a shit load of lings ?) or are you forced to get a roach warren ? You can't get lair tech out against blink push. You'll need roach/ling. You recognize blink stalkers because he's not making sentries, but rather stalkers, you may see a twilight council, you see lots of stalkers push out around 8-9:00... I mean it should look similar to a 6/7/8 gate but he already has a couple stalkers built up and it's a little later, whereas most Toss are building up sentries. 4 gases, lots and lots of chrono on the forge from early on, and the cybercore. You don't particularly need to know it's a blink push, you just see he's doing a 4 gas warp gate push, and you just get lots of roach/ling against that. If they do a zealot push before it, that's a totally separate issue. You don't ask "how to deal with reactor hellion into mech", you ask "how to deal with reactor hellion" and "how to deal with mech". Similiarly, you need to learn how to hold the zealot push (before 6:30, use lings made when you see him push out with zealots, always know how many zealots he pushes out with, and make sure he grabs gas at his natural before 6:30 or else get a 6:30 warren and a few roaches), and then blink after that (which shoudl be easy to hold if you hold the zealot pressure). | ||
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Hati
France15 Posts
one more question, you say to go roach ling against 4 gas, but sentry immo push also use 4 gas and i prefer to deal with it with muta. macro/tech can also be with 4 gas and i prefer to play mutas against it as well so should i just recognize the blink stalker with the fact that protoss doesn't make early sentry ? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I already kind of answered your question. No, you counter the +1 zealots with an early roach warren that you made because you saw Toss is gasless. If he took gas, then his +1 zealots should be perfectly counterable with just lings and queens. They aren't going to be warp gate zealots, you should see them moving across the map. These are 2 totally separate things you are talking about, it sounds like you are jsut having trouble with +1 zealot pressure. To which, you have to make a 6:30 roach warren if you see toss has no gas at his nat, and you have to sac an overlord. If you react like it's a 6 gate +1 when instead it's a 4 gate +1 zealot pressure or just double gateway upgraded zealots, you won't have the econ or tech to handle a follow-up like blink stalkers. As long as you only made like 3-5 roaches, and reactively made units if toss continues pressure, any sort of +1 zealot push opening, 4 gate +1, et cetera, should put toss so far behind that you'll easily crush whatever push he does. Not to mention roach/ling holds any sort of 2 base toss all-in. Colossus? roach/ling. Blink? roach/ling. Immortal/sentry? roach/ling. one more question, you say to go roach ling against 4 gas, but sentry immo push also use 4 gas and i prefer to deal with it with muta. macro/tech can also be with 4 gas and i prefer to play mutas against it as well so should i just recognize the blink stalker with the fact that protoss doesn't make early sentry ? Sentry/imortal push is tech. It's a late push that isn't coming anytime soon. That's why people say in order to beat it, you want to be greedy. As in, you don't need a 6:30 roach warren, you won't need to not make lair (ie because if it's a 6 gate +1, you'll die if you go lair before speed basically). You won't need to pump lings early on... Yea, you should recognize the difference between blink and immortal sentry based on how they take their gas (immortal/sentry either takes 2xgas at around 6:00, or 1 gas earlier/later but basically a similar timing, ie maybe a gas at 5:45 and the 2nd one is taken before 6:30. most usually take 2xgas at ~6:00 though) and if they are making lots of sentries or not. A blink push isn't going to make more than a single sentry that was made just to be safe against early all-ins. If he makes 2 stalkers from his gateway, that should raise questions. It should also be obvious when he pushes out with a bunch of stalkers at around 8:30-9:00, whereas immortal/sentry hasn't pushed out yet. I mean against blink stalker, you should be forced to make roach/ling because you see a move out, whereas immortal/sentry should be pretty obvious. You really gotta provide a rep though. This is all highly theoretical talk, but in all of my experience I have never seen a game where I didn't know what to do. I mean even immortal/sentry and blink have the same response to beat - drone hard and tech normally up until 8:00, then pump roach/ling. If you are going quick mutas, you'll just have to accept that blink all-ins will be some trouble to you, and something you should learn to identify. I like going quick mutas too against robo openings, but you can still make a roach warren. I will still make a roach warren most of the time if I can't tell exactly what Toss is doing. Think of doing things like cutting out the roach waren, getting a quicker lair and gases, no macro hatch, no evo chamber, as cutting corners against immortal/sentry, but you can really go the muta route even if you made a roach warren, evo, et cetera. | ||
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Hati
France15 Posts
I don't have a big problem with zealot +1 btw, just with all different kind of build leading to blink stalker (since i like to play muta and need to know if i can go lair and take all my gas, way before 9min). I tend to go gas lair and mutas as soon as i see 4 gas but it's maybe not the good thing to do. anyway thx a lot, again, and i'll come back with some replay if i still have issues with this  oh and i don't think there is imba build, i just need to learn how to recognize them and this is where u helped me | ||
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phomp
Canada7 Posts
The only thing I did not agree with was saying you can not be an econ. major and not be a conservative lol! I'd be inclined to say that you can not be an American economics major and not be a conservative, that I could believe. I met a lot of non republician economic majors and many "right wing" econ majors up here in Canada would be considered decomocrats in the US. =). But that is another thread for another time, good guide. Thanks! | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Lots of economists tend not to be party affiliated, even in america. Personally, I'd just say they are hardcore republicans who won't fess up to it, same thing (libertarian, republican, same thing, really, they just don't have any pride). But they will be conservative, even those up there in canada. They certainly won't be socialists. And people can be conservative and align themselves with a liberal party, everyone's a 1-issue voter when you get down to it, and for example, i don't agree with any of the religious or social stuff the republican party says at all, but my 1 issue happens to be what they agree with more than the democrats. if that makes sense. The majority of economists will be fiscally conservative, basically, is what I'm saying. But yea, canada and other countries tend to have a different center. What's conservative in many countries would be liberal in the US, what's conservative in the US is hardcore in other countries, etc. But they'll lean one way more than the other. Glad you like the guide. It's no secret that republicans tend to be pro leet masters on sc2 | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
And also, in case of a blink-all in. Shouldn't I almost exclusively be making lings? Or would you prefer mixing in some roaches as well? Also, should I be getting either a range or melee upgrade, or none at all? Oh, one last thing. How should I react to a ~12:00 min push with colossi in it? If I went ling-heavy, I'm pretty dead aren't I? What's the best army to engage this? Is it roach-corruptor? And do I have enough time to get corruptors out after I spot the first colossus, but do not have my spire yet? Thanks alot for this amazing guide!! | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Amazing guide. I was looking for something like this before, but never managed to find a guide that was this good. I think I've finally started figuring protoss out. Just a few questions though; you said if I hadn't seen anything at 10:00, I'd have to throw down spores. Don't you mean spines? No. Any sort of gateway pushed should have pushed out by 10:00. If he hasn't, you should be able to make enough roach/ling to hold. You also can get spines up reactively when he pushes out, whereas spores you can't exactly start making them when DTs first get in your base or 4 void rays show up at your third. And also, in case of a blink-all in. Shouldn't I almost exclusively be making lings? Or would you prefer mixing in some roaches as well? Also, should I be getting either a range or melee upgrade, or none at all? I cover this in the guide, but you always want to be heavier on lings. As the game goes on and toss is clearly 2 base turtling, you go heaviner on roaches. All 3 upgrades are viable. They each have their own benefits. Oh, one last thing. How should I react to a ~12:00 min push with colossi in it? If I went ling-heavy, I'm pretty dead aren't I? What's the best army to engage this? Is it roach-corruptor? And do I have enough time to get corruptors out after I spot the first colossus, but do not have my spire yet? Not really, as long as you have enough roach/ling you should hold it. You can get corruptors if you want, but making just enough roach/ling is really the best way to hold it. I wouldn't really recommend getting spire/corruptors if you scout it as late as seeing his colossus (maybe if you spot the support bay being made), I would only add spire after maxing out on roach/ling and Toss still hasn't pushed out. You need to set up a flank. Shouldn't be hard to do since he'll be all-inning and pushing toward you. You know he's coming, just set up your army for a flank before hand. | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
You're doing a great job over here with the guide/replying to comments (so quickly). Cheers! | ||
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Discarder
Philippines411 Posts
At this point, I have a lot of money so I thought making a lot of units to try and kill him would be a good idea. (opened 6:00 3 gas) | ||
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
 )I was wondering why the fuck I couldn't win ZvP and after reading thorough this guide and studying some replays, I realized that I have the early game macro of a gold league player. I never doubted my macro to be the issue because, in general, my mid/late game macro is solid. I didn't realize how important the early game macro is. I'm regularly 45-50 supply at 8 minutes. FUCKING TERRIBLE! It won't be hard to fix since I never really put that much care into my early game macro, and now that I know what to do, ZvP should get much easier..... I hope :D | ||
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bestof
Germany5 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I also included a replay of myself holding a 4 gate +1 (where the guy remembers +1), just to make it clear though. I would imagine Squirtle's 4 gate without +1 is scarier than a random ladder masters 4gate +1 anyways. If you hold a 4gate +1 while adequately having had started lair and droned a bit during the attack as you realize it's 4 gates and not 6/7/8 gates, you should have infestors out in time when Toss pushes and hold easily. And you should really only make infestors against a 2 base toss after you have about 150+ supply in roach/ling (making them too early can result in you dying, but earlier infestors means more energy, so it's a balancing act). Post a rep. I'll help you out. | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
I went 15 pool and figured I'd build 3 spines and pool larvae for lings + a queen...his proxy is so close that he gets to my mineral line well before the crawlers finish. It's the in-base one on Daybreak. If I scout it, what do I do? Pull drones to force a cancel? http://drop.sc/269034 Edit: I feel like such a noob; dying to the silliest cheese in the book, but I honestly don't know what I should've done and it's clearly a hole in my play, especially in a tournament setting (like this game). | ||
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