EPT[G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvP! - Page…
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Culioz
Canada10 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
In all seriousness, this is starting to become okay even for me. The guide or me saying I'm high masters? Try looking on some of the more newschool styles like the resurfacing 2base into 5base muta basetrade and 3hatch fast gas basetrade styles. The standard 3hatch is starting to get figured at the KR pro level, but still 100% viable at NA/EU pro levels. I made a thread on nestea's fast single gas for quick ling speed so he can reactively skip roaches against a Toss who gets gas, so he can more greedily and quickly tech up here. It's new, nestea is the only person to do it in the GSL (only very recently though) so far. I am watching it's progress. I continue to update this guide, ive added reps recently for 4 gate immortal all-in and zenio's 3 hatch bane bust. I covered the old builds already, but I am considering changing a few parts of the guide already, for 2 reasons: 1. We are seeing some zergs go infestors off 3 hatch against FFE, as their opening tech of choice. This goes against my 'advice', where I see I 'prefer' not to get infestors against 2 base Toss (except against double stargate). So far, every time someone did this, it has been against double stargate or lost, but it's obviously worked for suhosin before. I suppose I'm just saying it's a personal preference, but I am watching to see if anyone else does this. 2. 2 base infestor as a macro based build. As far as I've seen, this has always resulted in a loss, and there was a mass infested terran spam timing attack (that usually failed too). As far as I see, this build is being played the same as it was before (and with less success so far). I am keeping an eye on old and new builds coming up, and will updated the guide as necessary. | ||
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Jombozeus
China1014 Posts
Just IMHO. I would say the 2base to 3base muta opener should be discussed more. Its still a "standard" strategy nowadays. Its used significantly more on the KR ladder than in pro games (anecdotal, just from watching KR streams of ToD and NightEnd). | ||
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Xahhk
Canada540 Posts
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aaaaaaaaa
25 Posts
Finally: Make sure to trade with his void rays before he gets 6+ critical mass that will kill anything you could make. That's a stupid way to lose. You don't need to be cost efficient, but 8+ void rays with phoenix support and ever increasing numbers will destroy anything but mass infestor, and you will not get mass infestors in time when he already has 4+ void rays and lots of phoenixes by the time your lair is done, unless you went straight for infestors. This is fairly easy to do with Corruptors, as phoenix just tickle them and you can snipe the voids very quickly with them once you have 8+. How can i make sure do trade with his voids? I usually let him come at me, but if he doesnt? I just go with my queens to his base? | ||
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Aelendis
Belgium892 Posts
So, my question is "Is it a good idea to add a queen dedicated to creep spread? And if yes, when?" Or in a more general way "How do I spread creep"? Because when I have 3 hatches and 3 queens, all my queen energy is devoted to injects, and I sometimes find myself in a late-game position where I can't spine up effectively, due to the lack of creep... Thanks! | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
How can i make sure do trade with his voids? I usually let him come at me, but if he doesnt? I just go with my queens to his base? You used queens/spores to defend at first. You made a hydra/corruptor/infestor pit so you could move out on the map against him - be aggressive, deny his third. He will have no choice but to use some of his air units to secure his third and protect his base. I have a question concerning creep spread. I dond't think it's mentioned in you guide. I could be mistaken, though... So, my question is "Is it a good idea to add a queen dedicated to creep spread? And if yes, when?" Or in a more general way "How do I spread creep"? Because when I have 3 hatches and 3 queens, all my queen energy is devoted to injects, and I sometimes find myself in a late-game position where I can't spine up effectively, due to the lack of creep... Thanks! Of course spreading creep is good. A dedicated creep queen when you can afford it, or getting overlord speed because of how often base trades occur in this match-up and having vision of army movement and using a few overlords to creep out right outside your base in lategame so you just bring a queen over to plant a few tumors down to solidify a huge creep area immediately, having good macro with your creep spread, etc... Eventually lategame you'll have some extra energy on your queens. Just use that to spread a bit of creep, if not get a dedicated creep queen. It's not in my guide particularly because there's nothing to really say about it - of course it's good to spread creep. It's up to you how to do that obviously, and I do mention with the infestor style, you will need creep spread to plant mass spines. What I do is just use overlord speed to lay out a bunch of creep out front, then drag a queen over to plant tumors all over it and wala, instant huge spread of creep in front of your base that you push out aggressively with. | ||
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s980126i
1 Post
I just have a little question, about dealing with Immortal/Sentry. You've mentioned that use lots of ling/roach to shut it down, but Immortal just deal tons of damges to roaches, and force filde is just annoying. (You've mentioned if macroing well, it should able to shut it down, but is there an easier way to deal with?) I've seen Day9 talking about roach free hydra openings, and I find out that Ling/hydra is good at against nearly everything before colossi and HT. So, is it possible to go ling/hydra before colossi, and switch back to roaches/corruptors/infestors after colossi pop out? (this spend same amount of gas compare to roaches, so it won't affect the tech after, but need more larva and supply) (I've try this, but it doesn't work every time as my macro is not solid enough, and I hope that you can give me some suggestions, thanks) | ||
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roym899
Germany426 Posts
Here is a replay: http://drop.sc/192611 | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
So, is it possible to go ling/hydra before colossi, and switch back to roaches/corruptors/infestors after colossi pop out? (this spend same amount of gas compare to roaches, so it won't affect the tech after, but need more larva and supply) (I've try this, but it doesn't work every time as my macro is not solid enough, and I hope that you can give me some suggestions, thanks) No. You can't really afford the tech. And making so many hydras leaves you vulnerable to colossi switches. Which would be fine if you were the one being aggressive (like if he went stargate), but against immortal/sentry, you are being defensive. You need a large army to beat immortal/sentry, zerg doesn't quite work like counter x with y. Immortal/sentrry will rape hydras in equal numbers, hydras really only work if they have an overwhelming roach/ling army to sort of tank for them. You can't really afford all of that in time. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
So here's some observations I made of pros, that I incorporate in my play now, and I can hit 70+ easily now in build order testers, and 60+ regularly in games (seriously, being only at the 60's, is SO hard to deal with things like immortal/sentry all-in or fast thirds, and just impossible to win if you are in the 50's, because you either have no econ, or you are making drones when you need to be making units to hold pushes or punish fast thirds). - Pros rally drones to new bases, they don't maynard. Consistently, what I see of pros, especially ones who regularly hit 70+, is they will not maynard drones from their main to their natural, or main/natural to third. What they do, is when their natural pops, they rally new drones to the natural (only exception is maybe if natural is really late, which can happen if pylon blocked and you don't take your third right away). Maynarding drones from your main/nat to third also really hurts. What pros do, is they just have their hatches rally new drones to the natural. Then, when the third pops, they rally new drones to the third. The timing works out in a way, that generally, when you start ralling to your third, your main/nat are even (after taking both gas in your main, since main will be oversaturated, which means make your buildings in the main, so it even outs, especially if you take both gas there), and then you just need to really rally to your third for a second, since when it pops, you usually ahve 2x injects to go there. So what I do now, is rally drones to natural, and then when third is about to pop, I make a ton of drones with the larva injects, and just rally those eggs collectively to the third until it's about 12 drones, as that would be even in all 3 bases, and just keep the rally points from each hatch to their respective bases. - Pros tend to make 2-3 overlords all at once at ~50/54 supply. You would think this is bad macro, and well, it's not perfect, but you literally have a ton of things going on all at once here. You tend to lose an overlord at this point, which is 7:00, to sacrifice as a scout. Secondly, you just have a ton of things going on right now - you are dealing with zealot/stalker pressure, dealing with probes trying to set pylons, scouting Toss, making lair, roach warren, evo, speed, and 3xinjects popping. So you really need these 3 overlords all at once, as you suddenly have a huge boost in larva. Pros really do this a lot, and quite frankly, I think it's smart. 3 overlords x 8 supply is 24, bringing you from 54 cap, to 78. You tend to lose one of these overlords, so it puts you ave 70 (so make a 4th soon after if you are about to lose one to sacrifice). You can't really make all drones, then make an overlord from natural larva, it really is best just to make these 3 overlords in a very, very short span of eachother. Just a note. I think I'll edit the macro section on this. It's what's helped me personally, a lot to make 3x overlords at 51/54, and don't maynard, but instead rally drones. You balance the mineral fields out by smart rallying, and making buildings/gases at mineral lines that are a bit oversaturated. | ||
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Leimus
72 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I've heard a few people say to me on ladder that "lol your guide sucks" but i dont know why. havent heard any criticism besides 'you suck scrub bad guides newb' and then i own them and tell them "hey you clearly should read my guides" hahaha | ||
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ImUnemployed
Canada3 Posts
Also, I know this has been edited since I last read it, and this is a decent length thread, so apologies if it's been mentioned before, but I would recommend emphasizing just how reliant on smooth macro this build is, as that is what I was initially struggling with, and I know many others have. If you aren't hitting your injects, you will outright lose to someone of your own level, and if you have the mental habit of 'scaling back' benchmarks to what would be appropriate in your league, it can be very difficult to understand what you're doing wrong. Also, when I have more time, I would love to contribute to the streamlining debates when I have time, as after working on that slightly, I quickly went from struggling to break 60 supply, to coming up to 80 and over-droning in practice situations. Unfortunately for now it looks like I have a lovely ZvT guide that I had missed (yours), and so need to go make that my top matchup.  | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
DRG REACHES 80 SUPPLY! Crazy right? As impossible as it sounds, and as amazing as it seems already, DRG's macro has actually improved a lot in the last couple months. So we saw in the GSL Genius vs DRG finals that DRG was consistently reaching 70+ supply, although he had a few games where he was below 70, I think 68 on daybreak due to early aggression. On a recent stream game, however, he reached 81 supply at the 8:00 mark, and this is when a 4 gate style pressure of some sort hit around 7:30, and forced him to make roaches and units around then and he had to pull drones off his third around 7:30 (he keeps it, but loses due to close spawn entombed about 10 minutes later). In the MLG finals, DRG was consistently 70+ supply, unlike the GSL finals, and he hit 75+ most of them, and 80+ a few times. If you go over his recent GSTL games and GSL games, he is appearing to hit over 75+ in all his ZvP now, and 80+ many times. I didn't think it was possible to go 80+, and it was quite the benchmark when DRG his 78 in the genius finals. Here's some observations I made of his games: - Getting pylon blocked costs zerg (and toss) about 3-5 supply - DRG does not make a 3rd queen pre-emptively, but rather, when the third finishes, he makes the 3rd queen there. This is different from what he did in the Genius vs DRG GSL finals, when he made his queens early. - DRG tends to only make 2 lings at the start instead of 4, but tends to make 4 more lings around 30 supply. A little risky if someone pylon blocks your third, but a gamble he takes... - DRG makes his 2nd queen before third. DRG seems to take a little bit later of a third than most zergs, as most take third before 2nd queen. DRG sends a drone out around 20 supply to the third, and takes it at 22-24. - DRG takes 3xGas at 6:30+, usually 6:40-6:45. I think this really boosts his econ more than the 2x gas style, because you'll notice DRG hits 50+ supply at the 6:00 mark, whereas most zergs hit that at 7:00 mark. - Most Zergs make 3 overlords at once at ~50 supply. He also seems to make overlords, at 36+ supply, when he reaches cap. So an overlord at 36/44, then when he hits 44/44, he makes another one, and he's jsut at 44/44 for a split second as that earlier overlord finshes, and he constantly makes an overlord when he reaches cap from this point onward. and as I stated earlier, DRG does not maynard workers, he rallies from main to nat right before it pops so drones arrive when it finishes, then rallies to third instead of maynarding. | ||
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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
Basically, the way i go is +1 4 gate attack - i think this is by far the best toss opener as you HAVE to force something other than drones. All other openers (4 gas, 3 gas) are basically waaay too passive and put the ball in zergs court. I think in general, you can't allow zerg to have 70+ supply by 8 minutes or you are totally fucked as toss. I pretty much benchmark all my games vs zerg by how much supply they have when i attack at just before 8 minutes and i pretty much lose any game where they have good macro. I don't think i've EVER won a game where i do some kind of strong 2 base attack where i don't push out before 8:00 and zerg macro's correctly. For now it's ok, there are ALOT of bad macro zergs high up on ladder, but i absolutely think that ZvP becomes a MUCH easier matchup when you are capable of getting 70+ supply at that mark. As in, you literally are able to wipe the floor with almost any toss out there, and you at the very minimum garuantee yourself an easy path to infestor BL lategame. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On June 25 2012 15:55 Belial88 wrote: MLG Finals DRG vs Alicia Set1. DRG REACHES 80 SUPPLY! Crazy right? As impossible as it sounds, and as amazing as it seems already, DRG's macro has actually improved a lot in the last couple months. So we saw in the GSL Genius vs DRG finals that DRG was consistently reaching 70+ supply, although he had a few games where he was below 70, I think 68 on daybreak due to early aggression. On a recent stream game, however, he reached 81 supply at the 8:00 mark, and this is when a 4 gate style pressure of some sort hit around 7:30, and forced him to make roaches and units around then and he had to pull drones off his third around 7:30 (he keeps it, but loses due to close spawn entombed about 10 minutes later). In the MLG finals, DRG was consistently 70+ supply, unlike the GSL finals, and he hit 75+ most of them, and 80+ a few times. If you go over his recent GSTL games and GSL games, he is appearing to hit over 75+ in all his ZvP now, and 80+ many times. I didn't think it was possible to go 80+, and it was quite the benchmark when DRG his 78 in the genius finals. Here's some observations I made of his games: - Getting pylon blocked costs zerg (and toss) about 3-5 supply - DRG does not make a 3rd queen pre-emptively, but rather, when the third finishes, he makes the 3rd queen there. This is different from what he did in the Genius vs DRG GSL finals, when he made his queens early. - DRG tends to only make 2 lings at the start instead of 4, but tends to make 4 more lings around 30 supply. A little risky if someone pylon blocks your third, but a gamble he takes... - DRG makes his 2nd queen before third. DRG seems to take a little bit later of a third than most zergs, as most take third before 2nd queen. DRG sends a drone out around 20 supply to the third, and takes it at 22-24. - DRG takes 3xGas at 6:30+, usually 6:40-6:45. I think this really boosts his econ more than the 2x gas style, because you'll notice DRG hits 50+ supply at the 6:00 mark, whereas most zergs hit that at 7:00 mark. - Most Zergs make 3 overlords at once at ~50 supply. He also seems to make overlords, at 36+ supply, when he reaches cap. So an overlord at 36/44, then when he hits 44/44, he makes another one, and he's jsut at 44/44 for a split second as that earlier overlord finshes, and he constantly makes an overlord when he reaches cap from this point onward. and as I stated earlier, DRG does not maynard workers, he rallies from main to nat right before it pops so drones arrive when it finishes, then rallies to third instead of maynarding. As always, thanks for your work Belial ! Now, we should ask ourselves what are the pros & cons of DRG's macro boost style besides the Stephano's one ? Like the 3 delayed gas ? What are the risks doing something like this ? If i understand, he takes the 3 gas and the RW at the same time ? | ||
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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
If you scout +1 zealot warpgates coming, how many drones do you expect to cut (or what supply at 8:00?) Also, what if he goes nexus forge gate (all on 17) and gets out his zealot at 7:30, whats your plan then? How many drones/supply do you expect to have then? | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
He decided that making roach wasn't the best answer for this protoss build and thus decided to plan mutas. | ||
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