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US Server?
Also shouldn't that be micro a few times instead of macro?
The scary thing is no, your macro. Because then you'll realize how much they'll rape you with good micro, on top of good macro.
It's ridiculous what units are capable of doing in this game. It's not something you really see exploited until the higher levels, when macro becomes better.
Hey,
i have two questions.
1. What should I do on Tal'Darim Altair? Shall I take a 3rd like always? Although it's quite hard to defend it?
2. How to scout gas, if you send your Overlord to the wrong base and then you have to go cross the map to get to the gases. for example on Antiga Shipyard? I don't think the Overlord will be their in time so you know when to take the Roach Warren.
btw.: Thanks for this great guide.
Veto the map. Taking a fast third is standard play in ZvP, so if you can't even play a macro game, then the map is crap.
Pick something from the Zerg all-in section. However, mutas are so strong on TDA that 2 base muta is almost just as strong as a macro build, even against Toss who bo counter it with quick blink or mass gateway.
But you can't really defend your third against a strong immortal/sentry or blink all-in (some gateway all-in slightly heavier than just plain 6/7/8 gate) because you either hurt your econ tearing down rocks or your third is so far away and rallying reinforcements is impossible due to distance as they cut off your third from reinforcements with FF.
Glad you like it.
I really like your guide, but I hit 65 supply at 8 minutes and I'm not high masters, the Probes and Pylons theory is not 100% accurate if you play Zerg.
The 8:00 benchmark is one of many.
65 supply is not impressive at all either. 65 is just 'okay'.
So yea, it is accurate. I don't know where in the guide you got the impression that 65 was good performance in a real game, because it isn't. It's 'acceptable' in a real game, but it's not 'good'.
Did you hit 65 in a real game? Or against AI?
But thanks for trying.
hey belial this is looking very cool but i have a question: if i get pylon blocked on lets say ohana... i cant get my drones to destroy the pylons... if i wish to nydus bust as fallow up from ONE base... what is the best way to do it because i tried it and didnt had hydras and he just killed my army with 2 voids. otherwise i feel if i go hydra off one base it might be to late to kill him
I state pretty clearly in the guide what to do in regards to pylon blocks - don't let it happen. I already stated that you can't get your drones to destroy the pylons.
Just patrol a worker, don't let a ramp block occur.
If you are stuck on 1 base, you aren't going to win against toss unless he makes a mistake. The only reason you aren't gg'ing out is because you are hoping the toss is dumb enough to let you get a nydus up and they don't respond correctly.
Your OP is over 23,000 words. I just wanted to say thanks for posting something that in-depth and I can't wait to read it all when I have time. I'm trying to get back into SC2 after several months off and this is exactly the kind of guide I was hoping to find!
Thanks again for all your hard work.
Your welcome.
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Belial, this is a awesome guide
Was wondering what the reaction to a Protoss taking a really early third is? I looked at the How to React section and it only covers various all-ins/pressures deeply.
I tried doing the Stephano Roach max against it, and they've been able to hold it off and attack afterwards with a higher tech army. I'm thinking I should take 4th, maybe 5th(just for geysers) drone up, spine up and rush out infestor broodlord. Should this be my plan?
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Um, well that's a little deeper than this thread but I suppose you can 'infer' what it means. So we know the gameflow is.
.... Defend third,
Take map control and deny/delay toss third
Delay toss' 3 base deathball stalker/colossus+some push to get BL/Infestor in time
So the consequences of Toss taking a fast third means:
- Third is succesfully defended (ie you don't need to defend it)
- You can possibly straight up 'deny'/kill toss third as he's weaker, whereas normally Toss takes their third in a moment of strength, or at least growing strength to overcome your mass roach
- Toss' 3 base deathball push will come quicker
So what this allows you to do sort of is:
1. Drone up more
2. Mass roaches or make mutas/infestors without making many roach/ling at all and be aggressive
3. Tech up hard and quick
Mutas can be really good against a toss who takes a third, as he's spread out and won't have as many gateways and blink to defend against the mutas (i really, really like going mutas against fast third toss, if I know mass roach won't work, like on entombed valley where a single FF can protect third). Going for infestors and teching super fast to hive is also a good choice.
I mean basically your third is 'defended', so you move right into the next stage of the game - you have map control. Do what you want. You didn't have to make many roaches or lings to protect yourself, so this allows you to get those mutas/infestors/hive much quicker, or even mass roach as you were allowed to drone a little more. Depending on the map, and how quickly you noticed what was going on, can make a big impact on what choice is best.
But yea in short, the whole 'defend your third' is really short and simple, and you have map control. You can either press hard with this map control against a toss you think is being too greedy (good on maps like, say, daybreak, where there's lots of room, and bad on entombed valley where the third is easily defendable and close to their natural), or tech up as you know they won't attack anytime soon (either to muta/infestors or all the way up to hive).
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On May 10 2012 22:36 Destroyr wrote:
hey belial this is looking very cool but i have a question: if i get pylon blocked on lets say ohana... i cant get my drones to destroy the pylons... if i wish to nydus bust as fallow up from ONE base... what is the best way to do it because i tried it and didnt had hydras and he just killed my army with 2 voids. otherwise i feel if i go hydra off one base it might be to late to kill him
I played two ZvPs on Ohana yesterday where they messed around with pylons, so I thought I might as well link them to you. This is diamond level and the opponents were pretty stupid, overcommitting like hell and suiciding units but at least it should show that protoss tech gets delayed quite a bit when they do these kind of stuff.
ZvP Ohana where P pylon blocks natural and cannon rushes third
ZvP Ohana where P contains Z with 3 pylons and 2 cannons
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On May 12 2012 18:44 Belial88 wrote:
Um, well that's a little deeper than this thread but I suppose you can 'infer' what it means. So we know the gameflow is.
.... Defend third,
Take map control and deny/delay toss third
Delay toss' 3 base deathball stalker/colossus+some push to get BL/Infestor in time
So the consequences of Toss taking a fast third means:
- Third is succesfully defended (ie you don't need to defend it)
- You can possibly straight up 'deny'/kill toss third as he's weaker, whereas normally Toss takes their third in a moment of strength, or at least growing strength to overcome your mass roach
- Toss' 3 base deathball push will come quicker
So what this allows you to do sort of is:
1. Drone up more
2. Mass roaches or make mutas/infestors without making many roach/ling at all and be aggressive
3. Tech up hard and quick
Mutas can be really good against a toss who takes a third, as he's spread out and won't have as many gateways and blink to defend against the mutas (i really, really like going mutas against fast third toss, if I know mass roach won't work, like on entombed valley where a single FF can protect third). Going for infestors and teching super fast to hive is also a good choice.
I mean basically your third is 'defended', so you move right into the next stage of the game - you have map control. Do what you want. You didn't have to make many roaches or lings to protect yourself, so this allows you to get those mutas/infestors/hive much quicker, or even mass roach as you were allowed to drone a little more. Depending on the map, and how quickly you noticed what was going on, can make a big impact on what choice is best.
But yea in short, the whole 'defend your third' is really short and simple, and you have map control. You can either press hard with this map control against a toss you think is being too greedy (good on maps like, say, daybreak, where there's lots of room, and bad on entombed valley where the third is easily defendable and close to their natural), or tech up as you know they won't attack anytime soon (either to muta/infestors or all the way up to hive).
Ah, thanks for the advice, great help. I needed a plan vs this.
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14/14 against gateway opening?
Gateway opening = hatch first all day IMO
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Toss who oppens gateway and then sees you went hatch first can just throw down a reactive forge and cannon rush you + zealot. This should be an autowin. there's a gsl game on crossfire where this hapened too. This is something higher level people have told me as an absolute, so if I'm wrong, please let me know, but as I was told and understood it from examples, toss scouts with probe to see hatch first, then reactively throw down a forge, chrono zealots out, and you can't keep the hatch.
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Hi Belial, thank you for the guide.
I have a question about the overlord timings mentioned in your post. I apologize if this has been mentioned elsewhere, I only noticed the initial comments on the first page where you further stated to make overlords at 26/28, 50/54, etc, because doing so earlier hurts your drone count. This was something I was examining in my own replays to try and hit the 8:00 benchmark.
I watched replays of DRG, and replays that you posted, and I noticed that these overlord timings are usually not followed. Here are three screenshots from one game of DRG vs Parting, from (I believe) MLG Spring Arena 1.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1uFAc.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2F2Hx.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zoA5n.png)
I noticed similar timings in your own replays posted in your guide. Are these timings in replays just mistakes, or is there a different optimal time to make overlords before 50 supply?
Thank you very much, and thanks again for the guide!
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They were pretty general overlord timings, and just what I seemed to do at the time. The point was more on where to send overlords, rather than when to make them, so people would know what overlord I was talking about (is 3rd overlord the 3rd one you make, or the 2nd one you make?)
When you take your third, cannon/pylon block/pressure, and how early you want to start you queens, can affect overlords timings.
In the case of the game you referenced, I'm not sure what happened, but DRG clearly took a third later than 24 (or something else happened, like shenanigans at the nat). He had to make his ~33 overlord at a different time because he didnt have 2 extra supply granted by the hatch that you would usually have at that time. His ~42 overlord is also affected - generally, you have 2 injects popping right when you are at 36 supply (which is exactly when your ~33 overlord pops and your third has been done), which means you have like, hundreds of minerals, and 0 larva to 10 larva instantly. It makes no difference if you make your overlord between 36 to 44, because you are morphing like 8 larva all at the same time.
Making an overlord at 42 is a bit too early, I've learned now. 44 sounds a bit early, I'm not sure. He has enough money to make 5 drones in that pic, so in the production of that overlord he has to make 5 more drones, which I think he probably could do.
Nice post though, thanks for the effort. cool stuff. I mean DRG could be making macro slips due to it being a real game, and making an overlord just a supply or two late by the 40+ mark is okay, it's when you make it really early or really late, or do it earlier than 40 supply, that it's a bigger deal. But after 40+, as long as you aren't blocked/early by , i dont know, 5+ seconds, you should be okay i think. Generally speaking though, I think DRG took a later third (not a bad thing, just later end than most people do in that game, or shenanigans occurred) in that game and yea, his 44 overlord is better than 42 overlord.
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Question about macro benchmarking. I'm ~Platinum skill Zerg and I hit 70 supply @ 8 minute mark vs Toss. Almost all of the supply count is drones. Did you mess up the benchmark perhaps? Because I consider my macro to be bad and I do have idle larva from time to time.
EDIT:
Oh, and by the way! Thanks for this greeeaaat guide! This is going to help me a ton, especially the scouting guide. Gonna go ahead and read your Terran guide too.
Thanks alot!
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On May 28 2012 01:54 vonKlaust II wrote:
Question about macro benchmarking. I'm ~Platinum skill Zerg and I hit 70 supply @ 8 minute mark vs Toss. Almost all of the supply count is drones. Did you mess up the benchmark perhaps? Because I consider my macro to be bad and I do have idle larva from time to time.
EDIT:
Oh, and by the way! Thanks for this greeeaaat guide! This is going to help me a ton, especially the scouting guide. Gonna go ahead and read your Terran guide too.
Thanks alot!
If Toss doesn't attack you at all this is pretty standart I think. But I think the point Belial wanted to state is, that no matter what the Toss tries you should be able to achieve this benchmark by that time.
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wow, you have 2 comprehensive MU guides? that's amazing, it's well organized and has a lot of really useful specific information
i'm not a z player but thx!
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I've learned something recently about hitting the 70 supply mark. Apparently, the best way to maynard workers, is to rally them to new hatches as they pop. So instead of taking half of your main's workers when the natural pops, you just rally new drones to it, then when your third pops, just rally new drones to it. The timing works out well (rally to third when it pops and your main and nat are roughly balanced, and if not, just take the gases all in one base, or build roach warren/evo using drones from the heavier mineral line) that it's all pretty intuitive (main will be heavier, but make both gases in main). That's why I always struggled to hit 70 myself, I figured splitting everytime was the best way to maynard. It makes a difference of about 5-10 supply by the 8:00 mark, now I consistently hit 65+.
Question about macro benchmarking. I'm ~Platinum skill Zerg and I hit 70 supply @ 8 minute mark vs Toss. Almost all of the supply count is drones. Did you mess up the benchmark perhaps? Because I consider my macro to be bad and I do have idle larva from time to time.
EDIT:
Oh, and by the way! Thanks for this greeeaaat guide! This is going to help me a ton, especially the scouting guide. Gonna go ahead and read your Terran guide too.
Thanks alot!
Then you have amazing macro, post the rep. I probably have something to learn from you if you can hit 70+ every game, in a real game.
I struggle to hit 70, but I always hit 60's. Usually 65 is where I hit. Starting to hit 70's now that I learned better ways to maynard.
Also, it's not so much about toss attacking you, since units count for supply too. I'm not talking about drone counts, I'm talking about supply. Having 70+ supply of 'stuff' at 8:00 is a good thing.
wow, you have 2 comprehensive MU guides? that's amazing, it's well organized and has a lot of really useful specific information
i'm not a z player but thx!
Glad you like it, switch races.
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On May 28 2012 19:57 Belial88 wrote:
Then you have amazing macro, post the rep. I probably have something to learn from you if you can hit 70+ every game, in a real game.
Unfortunately, I don't save my replays so I don't have the replays I watched anymore. I just use the recent replays-feature. But I have been looking through quite a few of my recent game just to check my benchmarks, and in those couple of replays where I hit 70 I must have had some kind of divine inspiration. Most of my games I'm at around 50 supply @ 8 minutes. Some games I'm at 60, some games I'm at 40+.
Maybe I was just watching some pro-game without realizing it...
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^ Just post the rep of the next time you play, I'm sure myself and others can point out some problems that you could easily fix.
When I go fast third in ZvP, all I think about is macro macro macro. I swear, the first 8:30 always feels like the final leg of a marathon, I'm just spamming S all the time and trying to make the larva appear quicker. It's so tiring. I don't know what FFE is like, but god damn, trying to hit 70+ is a fucking accomplishment when going fast third.
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Struggling to apply this guide.. I'm a platinum league zerg and whenever I scout the gasses (Let's say he has no gasses at natural and has warp gates finished in his main) I assume a timing attack, so I prepare with 6:30 roach warren and make the proper defense.. At 8 minutes when the attack should come...nothing comes... He sits on 2 base for 15 minutes and I have no idea what to do
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^ Then go fucking kill him, you should easily overpower him when he has no sentries, and your roach speed kicks in.
All pressure/all-ins are timing attacks, because they only work during a certain, critical times. A 6 pool doesn't work if you have 70 drones and can reactively make 50 roaches. Similarly,a Protoss who is all-inning by lacking tech, because he doesn't take gas at his natural, will lose his timing to do damage hopefully (for him) before you have enough roach/ling, and the timing is completely over when roach speed kicks in (and things like burrow as well) and you can roll plain gateway armies.
Post the replay, there are probably macro problems in your play, but if you massed roaches and lings against a gasless Toss who simply doesn't move out, that means he has no sentries, and you can just go kill him with roach speed.
A 2 base Toss will never be able to take his third base against 200/200 roaches unless he has lots of sentries and immortals, and he goes for that third BEFORE you are maxed out (or, if he does wait that long, you will just have a powerhouse of an economy and have hive soon coming, or mass infestors or mutas). A 2 base Toss will also never be able to handle a zerg who has 15+ mutas, which you can get quite quickly off of only 6 gas.
The information is in the guide though - massing roaches is the early game, making mutas or infestors is the midgame, and making broodlords is the endgame. You can stay longer or shorter on each phase, depending on the dynamics of the game and what you want to do stylistically. If you've massed roaches against Toss, who still doesn't have his third and is just sitting on 2 base, the next natural step, if killing him doesn't work (and I strongly advise against busting up a ramp against a 2 base turtle, just forever deny his third and starve him to death), is get higher economy - but oh, you say, you already have 3 bases and a 4th coming just for gas, against a 2 base toss? Well, then your only next choice is tech!
But wait, I said infestors are bad, and hive is bad too! Well, infestors are just bad in that you can die while teching to them. If you clearly have map control with mass roach, going for infestors is fine. You've already 'won' the game, just don't throw it away by running up a choke or fast tracking to hive with no army out. If Toss moves out with a clearly intidimating sentry/immortal/blink 2 base deathball, just base trade, 200/200 roaches will beat a base trade against sentries and immortals and zealots. Mutas are a great choice though, personally when Toss is stuck on 2 base like this, I go for mutas, and force the base trade, mass spines, and then win the base trade.
Generally, you should never attack someone when YOU have the economic advantage - but if you have a key timing, take advantage of it! Toss has no sentries, that means roach pressure will just be beastly, and worst case scenario, you trade roaches for his entire army or colossi (remember, his income is limited to X bases, but yours is potentially infinite when you have map control - map control is everything in this game, and that's why zerg race is best race, speed=power). If Toss is on 2 base and doesn't have HT, mutas will wreck him! If Toss massed phoenixes, fast tech to hive and infestors because colossi will be late! Also, there's a big difference between attacking, and denying bases. You don't want to attack a turtling opponent when you have the macro lead, but you DO want to deny bases and make sure he can never step out of his little turtle shell.
Read the "Avoiding Ridiculous Losses section" for more clarification, specifically:
The ETA Concept This is a big one. You can read about it here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=300184This is not some ambiguous thread. It's extremely useful. If you are on 3 bases vs 2, or 5 bases vs 3, your "E" is good. Now, work on on Tech and Army. If you lost a stupid game even though you were way ahead in econ, check the army values when you lost the game. Chances are, you were way behind in army value, and 1k less in roaches will never beat a higher value army of colossi, +3 upgrades, etc. Basically, once you've secured your third, and held off that Toss aggression with such a huge lead, you no longer need to focus on your econ. You already have more bases. You don't need more drones, especially once you've reached 70. You need to match what Toss is doing. Match your tech, to his tech. Match your army, to his army. With a higher econ, but even army and tech, there is no way to lose. Too many times, people lose because of their 6 bases vs a 2 or 3 base Toss, because they only have roaches against sentry/colossi/blink/upgraded deathball. Unless you have lots of mutas and Toss doesn't have 3 bases with HT and lots of blink stalkers, you will never beat colossi without broodlord tech. Once Toss makes the move toward more econ, then you can get that 4th, or 5-6-7 bases. Just because you aren't growing your econ, doesn't mean you aren't growing. Tech and army are also great ways to 'expand'..
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On May 31 2012 13:07 Piwi22 wrote:
Struggling to apply this guide.. I'm a platinum league zerg and whenever I scout the gasses (Let's say he has no gasses at natural and has warp gates finished in his main) I assume a timing attack, so I prepare with 6:30 roach warren and make the proper defense.. At 8 minutes when the attack should come...nothing comes... He sits on 2 base for 15 minutes and I have no idea what to do
When protoss sits on two base and makes colossus for 15 minutes, the best thing to do is to sit in front of his base and deny any third. He will be forced to do one big allin. Since you are on 3base eco vs 2base eco for like 7 minutes, you will have a much larger bank, while he cannot reinforce.
Everything in the macro stages still holds true, except when you realize hes not pushing you should stop making roachling and drone to 70-75, then resume roachling to max.
Theres two ways to play this, either make a huge spine wall and remax on roachling infestor over and over and counter until he runs out of steam, or make a huge spine wall and delay with your roachling infestor until you can replace your supply with broodlords. Both involve a huge spine wall, and both involve sitting on 3base with 70-80 drones.
It really depends on what you like and what they do.
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do you like my guide jombo?
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On May 31 2012 14:41 Belial88 wrote:
do you like my guide jombo?
Hey Belial88, anything else?
Thanks NrGmonk to changing title. Thanks to UCSD SC2 for letting me know how shitty I am, I was quite unaware
Anything by Belial88 Highmasters w/ Star icon!
EDIT: In all seriousness, this is starting to become okay even for me. Try looking on some of the more newschool styles like the resurfacing 2base into 5base muta basetrade and 3hatch fast gas basetrade styles. The standard 3hatch is starting to get figured at the KR pro level, but still 100% viable at NA/EU pro levels.
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EPT
