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On May 07 2012 00:33 TheRabidDeer wrote:I am not going to respond to your entire post, because either I have not spoken a word of english, or you dont listen to me, or you are just trolling me. However, I am going to pick this little bit out because it is so horribly explained Show nested quote +You sacrifice an overlord into his main at 7:00+. The first overlord that you start out with, should be sent directly to his natural's geysers, so you can spot them and how he takes them (2 gas taken right when nexus finishes is a dead ringer to double stargate, 2 gas taken at 7:00 could be many things, most usually gateway all-ins though). You should have an overlord over his natural gas by around 3:00 or earlier depending on map size. He is asking how you are supposed to know to throw down a roach warren at 6:30 if you dont scout until 7:00. If you follow the guide to the letter, then you will never know to throw down a roach warren at 6:30 because you havent scouted yet... that doesnt happen for another 30 seconds. So to him, it seems like a blind roach warren at 6:30 because scouting has yet to occur.
Your overlord should, as Belial has said, already be in place to scout gas by 6:30, if you see no gas, you get an early roach warren.
That's it, if he's doing early pressure, you see it and you hold. If he isn't, you can drone up some more. That's all there is to it.
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Thanks for the replies Belial and ThomasHobbes. I must have misread the scouting part of the guide, since i was under the impression that you only scouted with overlords (after confirming FFE of course) at the 7:00 mark, by going into main AND checking the nat's gas
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I just want to stop by and say thanks to the OP. I've been lost in this matchup for a while and just having the timings more-or-less laid out against FFE has been amazing for me. Again, thanks for the help!
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He is asking how you are supposed to know to throw down a roach warren at 6:30 if you dont scout until 7:00. If you follow the guide to the letter, then you will never know to throw down a roach warren at 6:30 because you havent scouted yet... that doesnt happen for another 30 seconds. So to him, it seems like a blind roach warren at 6:30 because scouting has yet to occur.
It says quite clearly in the guide to send your initial overlord to his natural's gas, something that every pro does (maybe not 1st, but one of the first 3 at least, depending on map size). This is something you didn't do, so I can understand why you are so completely confused here.
1 overlord to his natural's gas asap. A different overlord by his main, to be sac'd at 7:00-7:30. You will watch his gas from 3:00+ with the overlord at his natural. You will sac a different overlord into his main at 7:00+.
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On May 08 2012 01:15 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +He is asking how you are supposed to know to throw down a roach warren at 6:30 if you dont scout until 7:00. If you follow the guide to the letter, then you will never know to throw down a roach warren at 6:30 because you havent scouted yet... that doesnt happen for another 30 seconds. So to him, it seems like a blind roach warren at 6:30 because scouting has yet to occur. It says quite clearly in the guide to send your initial overlord to his natural's gas, something that every pro does (maybe not 1st, but one of the first 3 at least, depending on map size). This is something you didn't do, so I can understand why you are so completely confused here. 1 overlord to his natural's gas asap. A different overlord by his main, to be sac'd at 7:00-7:30. You will watch his gas from 3:00+ with the overlord at his natural. You will sac a different overlord into his main at 7:00+.
It says to keep an overlord at his natural's gas, but not what to look for. It doesnt say what the signal is to put a roach warren down at 6:30. It just says to have an overlord at his naturals gas. That is my point. And you can honestly drop my game completely because I am not arguing with you anymore because you are biased and ignoring just about everything I am saying.
Just to end your idiotic discussion about that game, here is one of me from a month ago
http://drop.sc/175142
Not the best game still, but a lot less rusty... and imo not entirely bad for a guy that has less than 500 games played in 2 years.
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On May 09 2012 05:49 TheRabidDeer wrote:
It says to keep an overlord at his natural's gas, but not what to look for. It doesnt say what the signal is to put a roach warren down at 6:30. It just says to have an overlord at his naturals gas. That is my point. And you can honestly drop my game completely because I am not arguing with you anymore because you are biased and ignoring just about everything I am saying. You mustn't have read the guide properly because the section on scouting the opponent's gas at his natural is quite detailed. It deals with the various possibilities arising from no gas, 1 gas, or 2 gas and how to react appropriately (the trigger for early roach warren is no gas at the natural).
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On May 09 2012 07:24 barrykp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 05:49 TheRabidDeer wrote:
It says to keep an overlord at his natural's gas, but not what to look for. It doesnt say what the signal is to put a roach warren down at 6:30. It just says to have an overlord at his naturals gas. That is my point. And you can honestly drop my game completely because I am not arguing with you anymore because you are biased and ignoring just about everything I am saying. You mustn't have read the guide properly because the section on scouting the opponent's gas at his natural is quite detailed. It deals with the various possibilities arising from no gas, 1 gas, or 2 gas and how to react appropriately (the trigger for early roach warren is no gas at the natural).
I did read that, but I am just saying that it doesnt specifically state that you must have a roach warren at 6:30 if no gas... at least I dont remember it stating that when I last read it a while back.
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Nice post, I still think 15p/17h is better than 14/15 or 14/16, but that's personal preference.
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Finally, you can turtle Stephano-style by splitting the map with 40+ spines and quick mass infestors to fast-track to hive.
How does this work? I've never seen this style before, usually when I read Stephano style I think of mass roach/ling with upgrades.
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On May 09 2012 07:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 07:24 barrykp wrote:On May 09 2012 05:49 TheRabidDeer wrote:
It says to keep an overlord at his natural's gas, but not what to look for. It doesnt say what the signal is to put a roach warren down at 6:30. It just says to have an overlord at his naturals gas. That is my point. And you can honestly drop my game completely because I am not arguing with you anymore because you are biased and ignoring just about everything I am saying. You mustn't have read the guide properly because the section on scouting the opponent's gas at his natural is quite detailed. It deals with the various possibilities arising from no gas, 1 gas, or 2 gas and how to react appropriately (the trigger for early roach warren is no gas at the natural). I did read that, but I am just saying that it doesnt specifically state that you must have a roach warren at 6:30 if no gas... at least I dont remember it stating that when I last read it a while back.
I'm not going to take the time to respond to you, you are obviously a troll. It goes quite in-depth that if you see no gas, you should make a 6:30 warren in the "What zero gas means" in the scouting section, "how to hold 6/7/8 gate/4 gate+1" section, and "Roach Warren/Evo Chamber" section.
Yea, maybe you should read the actual guide. Thanks.
Nice post, I still think 15p/17h is better than 14/15 or 14/16, but that's personal preference.
That's perfectly fine. I'd like to see someone actually test it (14 vs 15 pool, toss puts down a pylon, zerg puts down hatch when pylon is killed by 4 lings). I just said I 'felt' 15p was worse due to later hatch and later lings, but wasn't really sure what was better.
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On May 09 2012 09:31 INTOtheVOID wrote:
Nice post, I still think 15p/17h is better than 14/15 or 14/16, but that's personal preference.
Yeah, no reason to 14p since you can't afford a queen when pool pops anyway so might as well get pool at 15.
Unless it's a map where it's impossible to take a third before natural (TDA?) ofc.
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Well, I think the reason for it is that your hatch is delayed longer, so the 14p ends up even economically (imo). And you should be able to afford the queen - you will have 1 larva, so you make 2 lings + queen, then 2 more lings. Or if you stop droning at 15 instead of 16 (like what I do at least), you will just have the money because you didn't make that drone.
It's all preference, but we should get some testing on it to see which is really better when a pylon block occurs. I'll try to test the builds later to see which is better against a pylon block.
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On May 10 2012 00:47 Belial88 wrote:
Well, I think the reason for it is that your hatch is delayed longer, so the 14p ends up even economically (imo). And you should be able to afford the queen - you will have 1 larva, so you make 2 lings + queen, then 2 more lings. Or if you stop droning at 15 instead of 16 (like what I do at least), you will just have the money because you didn't make that drone.
It's all preference, but we should get some testing on it to see which is really better when a pylon block occurs. I'll try to test the builds later to see which is better against a pylon block.
I edited my post. Do you always get lings to clear natural instead of taking third before natural?
Because if you're not placing a hatchery before pool pops you'll ofc be able to afford the lings and queen but if you're doing
9 overlord
14 pool
(natural gets blocked)
16 overlord
16 hatchery (at third)
you will not have enough money for a queen when pool pops so that's why I am doing 15p instead.
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I see.
Yea, it really just depends if toss can get that pylon up or not. But you can't know before you decide to throw down the pool if you can get that hatch up. It's just a gamble to take.
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Hey,
i have two questions.
1. What should I do on Tal'Darim Altair? Shall I take a 3rd like always? Although it's quite hard to defend it?
2. How to scout gas, if you send your Overlord to the wrong base and then you have to go cross the map to get to the gases. for example on Antiga Shipyard? I don't think the Overlord will be their in time so you know when to take the Roach Warren.
btw.: Thanks for this great guide.
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I really like your guide, but I hit 65 supply at 8 minutes and I'm not high masters, the Probes and Pylons theory is not 100% accurate if you play Zerg.
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hey belial this is looking very cool but i have a question: if i get pylon blocked on lets say ohana... i cant get my drones to destroy the pylons... if i wish to nydus bust as fallow up from ONE base... what is the best way to do it because i tried it and didnt had hydras and he just killed my army with 2 voids. otherwise i feel if i go hydra off one base it might be to late to kill him
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On March 12 2012 17:36 Belial88 wrote:
Hey Belial88, I'm just starting out, any tips?
Focus on your macro. When you are below Masters, you don't really realize how horrible your macro is, so you may want a higher level person to analyze it for you, and you can never underestimate how important it is, because if you just macro 'okay', not good, but 'okay (avoid ever being supply blocked, don't bank 400+ money ever, never have a lapse of more than a second in idle larva or worker/unit production), and understand basic scouting (did he expand or not, does he have a lot of basic army/macro or could he be teching?), you would just simply skyrocket to Diamond (with a slight improvement, maybe a minor understanding of the game as anyone would have by diamond, then you would be masters soon enough). All of the goofy, late strats and attacks you see below masters, all become unviable as good macro simply hard counters them (3 void rays at 11:00? u leik 170/200 roaches?).
When you are above Masters, you realize how shitty your macro is. Especially if you play against a high masters or GM - you really don't appreciate how good a pro player is until you play one once you are at a level where you can execute basic macro. The efficiency they make a single unit have, is ridiculous (below masters, it's unanimous that people just hurt themselves every time they macro or attack because of lack of multi-task, let alone macro).
US Server?
Also shouldn't that be micro a few times instead of macro?
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Your OP is over 23,000 words. I just wanted to say thanks for posting something that in-depth and I can't wait to read it all when I have time. I'm trying to get back into SC2 after several months off and this is exactly the kind of guide I was hoping to find!
Thanks again for all your hard work.
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EPT
