|
Really loved the guide and the previous answers especially have been useful to me, thanks :-)
On May 05 2012 17:08 Belial88 wrote:
Its just odd that you are being so defensive about a game where you know you wrere completely off your game, and your oponent was clearly above your level. I think most people wouldn't think twice of the game, I wouldn't think twice about losing to naniwa doing a 4gate.
My guide, as well as my responses, tell you clearly what you should have done, and what your mistakes were. Even before the major edits, the guide tells you what you should have done. It tells you that going lair, not getting ling speed, and not seeing no gas at his natural, is an autoloss - there's even a pro vod example. Its like you didn't read my guide at all. And then you say the build counters fast third.
Please. Put more effort into it, if you read my guide you would know that you lost because you never made any effort to scout, you didn't put an overlord by his gas, and you made a lair, and you skipped ling speed. I even have a whole section saying to check your supply at 8 minute, and yours was quite low, low enough that it would be hard to win no matter what he did.
Everyone appreciates the time you put into writing those replies but you could be a little bit more considerate... I mean they know how bad they are or can be, but rubbing their face in it is exactly how you get people to become defensive.
|
It's not my intention. There's no nice way to say "you have 20 apm, didn't send a single overlord towards his base, supply block at 28'
I'm glad you like the guide, thanks.
|
This has been incredibly helpful for me. I'm still not at the stage where I can remember every part of how to respond correctly to scouting something and transitioning out of it smoothly but it's gone from an annoying matchup that I had a good win ratio in just because of being able to spend resources better, to my most comfortable one. Definitely one of the best guides I've read and I really appreciate the time and effort you spend in responding to people's queries.
A+++ would back Belial88 in a knife fight
|
Thanks. Here's a simple version:
Send initial overlord to where his natural gas is. so important!
3 bases, duh.
2x gas 6:00 (this is right about when third finishes, in the 30's of supply)
7:00/~45-50 what kind of gas do you see? Try to sac an overlord, poke in. Scout basically.
7:00-7:30/~50+ roach warren, evo - If no gas, a spine at third, speed then roaches, and lots of units until you know what's going on. Otherwise, lair then speed
Make a handful of roaches when warren pops
Drone up to 9:00, 2 more gas, macro hatch
If Toss has 4 gas, and you don't see any gateway units, and it's oddly quiet, put a spore at each base and maybe some extra queens. If it was single stargate, don't overreact (3 spores at once, oh god that's so bad when it's obvious his void ray is all away across the map killing an overlord and it's the only stargate unit out). Just get single queen out where you think he may attack first, add a spore at third or main when a 2nd stargate unit is revealed, your okay. Just add incrementally, is the key.
9:00, unless he was doing DT/SG, or you know exactly what is going on, make a lot of roaches and lings until you can get an overseer to run through his base and see what's up.
Don't grab more than 4 gas, or get any tech, until toss is posturing to expand (in most games it seems, toss will all-in and you have to fight to hold, and dont tech until you kill his whole army or he's trying to take his third). Only exception I'd say to this, is double stargate or colossi on 2 base. Get roach speed and an upgrade asap. Things like burrow, burrow move, overlord speed, are useful too.
Just play some games against AI, and figure out what 7:00, 8:00, 9:00 mean to you. It's hard to understand time, but it's easy to understand "oh, I should check the clock when third pops, because I know around then something important happens".
|
Belial, I have not once argued that my play wasnt flawed. I havent even argued about what I should have done... why? Because I know these things already. I state in my original post that I screwed up a fair amount. I am good enough to know my own mistakes. It is straight up rude that you think you know this other stuff though, I dare say even condescending and arrogant.
I am being defensive because you are actually talking shit about me and my play, not giving advice. Then you keep bringing up irrelevant points. If somebody has 50x my apm in a 6 minute game where there was little to no micro or actions necessary, I didnt lose because my APM was low. I lost because he outplayed me. High APM in the beginning stages of a macro game is NOT NECESSARY. Why do you think you see people completely take their hands off the keyboard even 2 or 3 minutes into the game to stretch their wrists or any number of things? Because APM that early is purely fluff/warmup.
I also think its hilarious as all hell that you now state "Armed with new knowledge, you will beat any ex-GM with even 20 apm on an off day who tries to do a 7 gate allin next time." Really? Initially I must have equal or greater APM to my opponent but now APM doesnt matter!
I appreciate the advice (and keep in mind that I am heeding the actual advice given), but what you are saying is just rude and in the case of APM and my opponents level is just wrong.
|
Well, you stated in your first post that you thought that 6/7/8 gate all-in counters fast third play, so what I took from that was that on a strategic level, there is no way to hold it. Quite the contrary, 6/7/8 gates are seen as somewhat outdated these days, and considered quite basic and easy to hold (i think when losira when fast third against anypro or hongun or whatever all-in cheese toss it was on dual sight small map, and held his 7 gate all-in, it validated for everyone that if you can hold this most extreme of all-ins in such a convincing and straightforward way, you can hold anything, and so it became standard, and I'm sure every zerg in the world was practicing how to hold it as every toss learned to execute it).
So I pointed out 2 problems in your play - not just the strategic, but your macro as well, as that is probably a big reason why you thought it was such a bo counter.
I don't know what other stuff you think is rude or presumptuous. I'm just pointing out the flaws in that game. I don't think I've impressed upon you how basic and major a problem it is that you didn't redirect your original overlord to go towards his base, and you make your 28 overlord ridiculously early and your 36 overlord majorly supply blocked (essentially, you got supply blocked every single time after your 18 overlord). I also pointed that I thought 20 APM was a big factor in this, you largely made drones and put your buildings down on time, and you weren't THAT far behind at 8:00, so you kept up in those areas while faulting in scouting and overlord production. Did you have an off game, or you normally play with 200+ apm, cool, whatever, then I'm sure you've held this all-in easily many times before.
I mean, in my guide, I state very clearly - send overlord to natural gas, when to make your first 5 overlords, how to hold a 6/7/8 gate all-in, and a vod example. It was clear you didn't read my guide at all, because this are very simple issues that you could easily identify and have fixed if you read the guide.
I'm not trying to talk shit about you, you are obviously a competent player to be in masters and to face such an opponent. I never said any ad hom toward you, I'm sorry you feel that way. I really can't stress enough though, how macro was such a huge factor in your loss, that you had 20 apm and that may explain a lot, and that you made some very basic mistakes.
I mean, maybe you could have said "obviously i was off in this game, so I get why I lost, but I was wondering what to do when I come across this build" or something. I don't mean to bash on you because you actually provided a replay, but in terms of "why did I lose this game?", i think it should have been very clear.
I really do think you lost because of your APM. I don't know what to tell you, 20 APM average for a 10 minute game is where you see bronze-gold sit at. Day9 has said that it takes about 50 apm to pull off basic building, and that this is very low. I really think you made such major mistakes like not sending your initial overlord toward his base when you figured out where he spawned, losing your scouting drone to a probe, not sending a single overlord towards his base, not putting a ling in front of his base, and ALWAYS having idle larva, is a result of your 20 APM in that game. I don't think APM is important, but at masters, I think you really need at least 60 APM to get by.
I mean you never made drones. You just had idle larva all the time, missed injects, overlords were always off. That's fine, everyone does that except high masters, but you literally always had idle larva.
Yea, he outplayed you. But I think the problem with your attitude here, is that you are so intent on focusing on him. But that's not the issue. If YOU had fixed some very minor issues, you could have won.
I mean, if the guy went 5 gate robo, or 5 gate blink, into third, or immortal/sentry all-in, or some type of build where skill can come through, that's fine.
But he literally did a very plain build order, very much similar to a 4 gate, and he won the game instantly. At 8:30 he was in your base, and you just lost right then and there. There was no contest at all, any diamond could have won just by executing the same build, even if his attack came 30 seconds later.
You would have beat this very, very high ranked player, if you just:
1. put an overlord over his natural's gas
2. Not get supply blocked at 28 and 36.
That's it! Very straightforward. But you blindly made a lair, when making a lair before speed is an autoloss to 6/7/8 gate. You never watched his gas, which means you autolose to 6/7/8 gate because you really have to prepare against it by taking very extraordinary measures (no lair, earlier roach warren, no droning after 8).
The game would have been very clear cut if these mistakes didn't occur. You would have gotten ling speed, and would have made enough units to hold his initial 8:30 hit, no matter how good he is.
Maybe if it was be more of an issue if it was a 3 minute back and forth. But it wasnt. He followed a build order. At 8:30 he was at your base. You instantly lose your third because you blindly made a lair and skippped ling speed.
Please. It's not about your opponent at all in this game. If it was a macro game, sure. But he basically did a 4 gate. Now, yea, we would all lose to naniwa's 4 gate. But none of us would lose to someone who was favored on ladder, doing a 4 gate, if we scouted it, by just seeing he doesnt take his gas - or at least, not immediately.
I also think its hilarious as all hell that you now state "Armed with new knowledge, you will beat any ex-GM with even 20 apm on an off day who tries to do a 7 gate allin next time." Really? Initially I must have equal or greater APM to my opponent but now APM doesnt matter!
You stated that normally, your APM is 130+, and that your basic macro mistakes were things that *never* happen to you,and you were just off. Trusting what you say here, I think with 130+ APM you will be more than capable of holding any 6/7/8 gate, even a GM level one, when you have an overlord over his natural seeing he didn't take gas, and pumping roaches and lings after a 6:30 roach warren (or even 7 minute) while you skipped lair in favor of ling speed. If anything, it'll be a close game where you lose after a very intensive battle.
You certaintly won't just flop the second you see his units the first time.
I appreciate the advice (and keep in mind that I am heeding the actual advice given), but what you are saying is just rude and in the case of APM and my opponents level is just wrong.
I don't know if you are heeding them. You had some very real problems in this game, and I feel you aren't taking them seriously at all. You are just writing them off by saying "oh, he was such a better player".
Look, you know the merits of 60+ APM, because you yourself generally average 100+. So I know that you understand when I say that 20 average APM throughout a 10 minute game in high masters is not enough, and that if you know an all-in is coming and you prepare to defend it, you should win and hold.
It doesn't matter if the person is GM level and is doing a double starport banshee build - you know the right response, now you know the 100% surefire way to always scout it, and you will beat it everytime now.
I do not say anything rude here, and I would appreciate if you leave out the ad homs. This is my personal opinion on the game that was presented, i really think the opponent's skill level was not the issue, and I really do believe that 20 APM was a major factor in why you made such glaring mistakes like not sending a single overlord ever, towards his base.
Please. Understand you were the one that lost, not that he won. There was no fight or struggle in this game, he literally rolled over you because you got supply blocked at 28, 36, and had 20 APM and not enough spare APM to scout at all, and have an overlord by his natural's gas.
If you want to disagree with my analysis, that's fine. If you refuse to acknowledge why you lost, or how to improve, that's fine. This is just my analysis, I'm sure others will say 20 APM against a high masters will be more than enough APM, and that blindly being so greedy and skipping ling speed and making a lair and not scouting his natural's gas at all is okay.
|
On May 05 2012 20:39 Belial88 wrote:
I'm glad you like the guide, thanks.
I've been struggling recently with the gasless FFE into early +1 zealots and got all the answers when coming to this thread, and I'm pretty sure I'll be back every once in a while :D
You talk about how macro is so important here, and I think it's not only macro. I noticed my play getting significantly better every time I improved my basics:
- A year ago I spent lots of time working on my APM's, and even if I wasted most of it eventually it helped me tremendously at getting a step higher
- After that I worked on my creep spread and keeping all those bases saturated, and forced myself to play really simple and standard BO's
- After that I practiced a lot to find out most suitable way to keep up with larvae injects, and worked on a routine to do all the usual tasks without feeling overwhelmed
- Right now working on the concept of always trading armies to keep the other on a low count of key units (still new at this, lost too many games because I want to macro hard and let the other guy alone to build up his death ball)
- And finally I'm looking into BO's to diversify my play and the current meta game as well (your thread is an amazing resource for this especially)
Amazingly enough, the trick that helped me a lot recently to improve my play was the Shit + # to add eggs to my groups of units, super important for reinforcements... How have I been able to play before without that? :D
Note that even though I don't know jack about BO's and stuff, all the basics I have covered got me fairly easily into top diamonds (though I have to admit the main reason why I can't get higher than diamonds is because my macro is pretty bad, always end up with thousands in the bank :/).
|
Amazingly enough, the trick that helped me a lot recently to improve my play was the Shit + # to add eggs to my groups of units, super important for reinforcements... How have I been able to play before without that? :D
haha, before i knew about that I would ctrl+click eggs I morphed, so all teh overlords or unused larva would be added and id just have random shit with my army. I really like the shift+ctrl+click, to remove a class of units froma control group (accidental overlords, when queens somehow get hotkeyed with my mutas or hatches, setting up flanks or just parts of my army to go counterattack, banelings and morphing bane sin ling/bane).
Thanks for your feedback! if you have any trouble in zvp, post a rep in here.
|
On May 06 2012 00:29 Belial88 wrote:Well, you stated in your first post that you thought that 6/7/8 gate all-in counters fast third play, so what I took from that was that on a strategic level, there is no way to hold it. Quite the contrary, 6/7/8 gates are seen as somewhat outdated these days, and considered quite basic and easy to hold (i think when losira when fast third against anypro or hongun or whatever all-in cheese toss it was on dual sight small map, and held his 7 gate all-in, it validated for everyone that if you can hold this most extreme of all-ins in such a convincing and straightforward way, you can hold anything, and so it became standard, and I'm sure every zerg in the world was practicing how to hold it as every toss learned to execute it). So I pointed out 2 problems in your play - not just the strategic, but your macro as well, as that is probably a big reason why you thought it was such a bo counter. I don't know what other stuff you think is rude or presumptuous. I'm just pointing out the flaws in that game. I don't think I've impressed upon you how basic and major a problem it is that you didn't redirect your original overlord to go towards his base, and you make your 28 overlord ridiculously early and your 36 overlord majorly supply blocked (essentially, you got supply blocked every single time after your 18 overlord). I also pointed that I thought 20 APM was a big factor in this, you largely made drones and put your buildings down on time, and you weren't THAT far behind at 8:00, so you kept up in those areas while faulting in scouting and overlord production. Did you have an off game, or you normally play with 200+ apm, cool, whatever, then I'm sure you've held this all-in easily many times before. I mean, in my guide, I state very clearly - send overlord to natural gas, when to make your first 5 overlords, how to hold a 6/7/8 gate all-in, and a vod example. It was clear you didn't read my guide at all, because this are very simple issues that you could easily identify and have fixed if you read the guide. I'm not trying to talk shit about you, you are obviously a competent player to be in masters and to face such an opponent. I never said any ad hom toward you, I'm sorry you feel that way. I really can't stress enough though, how macro was such a huge factor in your loss, that you had 20 apm and that may explain a lot, and that you made some very basic mistakes. I mean, maybe you could have said "obviously i was off in this game, so I get why I lost, but I was wondering what to do when I come across this build" or something. I don't mean to bash on you because you actually provided a replay, but in terms of "why did I lose this game?", i think it should have been very clear. I really do think you lost because of your APM. I don't know what to tell you, 20 APM average for a 10 minute game is where you see bronze-gold sit at. Day9 has said that it takes about 50 apm to pull off basic building, and that this is very low. I really think you made such major mistakes like not sending your initial overlord toward his base when you figured out where he spawned, losing your scouting drone to a probe, not sending a single overlord towards his base, not putting a ling in front of his base, and ALWAYS having idle larva, is a result of your 20 APM in that game. I don't think APM is important, but at masters, I think you really need at least 60 APM to get by. I mean you never made drones. You just had idle larva all the time, missed injects, overlords were always off. That's fine, everyone does that except high masters, but you literally always had idle larva. Yea, he outplayed you. But I think the problem with your attitude here, is that you are so intent on focusing on him. But that's not the issue. If YOU had fixed some very minor issues, you could have won. I mean, if the guy went 5 gate robo, or 5 gate blink, into third, or immortal/sentry all-in, or some type of build where skill can come through, that's fine. But he literally did a very plain build order, very much similar to a 4 gate, and he won the game instantly. At 8:30 he was in your base, and you just lost right then and there. There was no contest at all, any diamond could have won just by executing the same build, even if his attack came 30 seconds later. You would have beat this very, very high ranked player, if you just: 1. put an overlord over his natural's gas 2. Not get supply blocked at 28 and 36. That's it! Very straightforward. But you blindly made a lair, when making a lair before speed is an autoloss to 6/7/8 gate. You never watched his gas, which means you autolose to 6/7/8 gate because you really have to prepare against it by taking very extraordinary measures (no lair, earlier roach warren, no droning after 8). The game would have been very clear cut if these mistakes didn't occur. You would have gotten ling speed, and would have made enough units to hold his initial 8:30 hit, no matter how good he is. Maybe if it was be more of an issue if it was a 3 minute back and forth. But it wasnt. He followed a build order. At 8:30 he was at your base. You instantly lose your third because you blindly made a lair and skippped ling speed. Please. It's not about your opponent at all in this game. If it was a macro game, sure. But he basically did a 4 gate. Now, yea, we would all lose to naniwa's 4 gate. But none of us would lose to someone who was favored on ladder, doing a 4 gate, if we scouted it, by just seeing he doesnt take his gas - or at least, not immediately. Show nested quote +I also think its hilarious as all hell that you now state "Armed with new knowledge, you will beat any ex-GM with even 20 apm on an off day who tries to do a 7 gate allin next time." Really? Initially I must have equal or greater APM to my opponent but now APM doesnt matter! You stated that normally, your APM is 130+, and that your basic macro mistakes were things that *never* happen to you,and you were just off. Trusting what you say here, I think with 130+ APM you will be more than capable of holding any 6/7/8 gate, even a GM level one, when you have an overlord over his natural seeing he didn't take gas, and pumping roaches and lings after a 6:30 roach warren (or even 7 minute) while you skipped lair in favor of ling speed. If anything, it'll be a close game where you lose after a very intensive battle. You certaintly won't just flop the second you see his units the first time. Show nested quote +I appreciate the advice (and keep in mind that I am heeding the actual advice given), but what you are saying is just rude and in the case of APM and my opponents level is just wrong. I don't know if you are heeding them. You had some very real problems in this game, and I feel you aren't taking them seriously at all. You are just writing them off by saying "oh, he was such a better player". Look, you know the merits of 60+ APM, because you yourself generally average 100+. So I know that you understand when I say that 20 average APM throughout a 10 minute game in high masters is not enough, and that if you know an all-in is coming and you prepare to defend it, you should win and hold. It doesn't matter if the person is GM level and is doing a double starport banshee build - you know the right response, now you know the 100% surefire way to always scout it, and you will beat it everytime now. I do not say anything rude here, and I would appreciate if you leave out the ad homs. This is my personal opinion on the game that was presented, i really think the opponent's skill level was not the issue, and I really do believe that 20 APM was a major factor in why you made such glaring mistakes like not sending a single overlord ever, towards his base. Please. Understand you were the one that lost, not that he won. There was no fight or struggle in this game, he literally rolled over you because you got supply blocked at 28, 36, and had 20 APM and not enough spare APM to scout at all, and have an overlord by his natural's gas. If you want to disagree with my analysis, that's fine. If you refuse to acknowledge why you lost, or how to improve, that's fine. This is just my analysis, I'm sure others will say 20 APM against a high masters will be more than enough APM, and that blindly being so greedy and skipping ling speed and making a lair and not scouting his natural's gas at all is okay.
Once again, I havent disagreed with your analysis or anything of the sort. I also didnt disagree with you that higher than 20 apm is necessary. However, I do have higher than 20 apm and I show it when I need it.
Remembering to scout is not an APM block, it is a memory block. It is not REMEMBERING to scout. I REMEMBERED to scout late, it is not I didnt have enough APM to scout. If not scouting were an APM block (for me), then I would never have scouted at all instead of scouted late at a more APM intensive time in the game.
Also, you dont have a single vod demonstrating a hold against an 8 gate +1 timing. You dont even mention an 8 gate +1 timing that involves stalkers. In fact, I will go so far as even argue that you in fact can not drone until 8 minutes against such an all in (not this one that is actually refined down to pulling workers off gas). So I actually disagree with your assessment. If you do a traditional drone until 8 minutes against the build that he did, with a 7:15 roach warren you will have maybe 5 roaches popping at the 3rd and 10 popping at your main and natural (at most, actually unlikely) while he has 11 zealots and 7 stalkers already with +1 hammering away at your 3rd. You can not put a roach warren down that late against this build, as you will always at least lose your 3rd.
Hell, your VOD of losira holding a 7 gate +1 was entirely different and completely unrefined compared to what I went against (in addition to him hitting the natural instead of the 3rd)... trickster had 5 sentries, 4 zealots 1 stalker and no proxy pylon at 9 minutes (compared to a much more brute force of 13 zealots and 7 stalkers that I faced, with a proxy pylon finished). Thats most of a production round difference in timing for roaches coming out.
I am going to go ahead and say that even with perfect execution of the 3 hatch roach build you can not roach warren at 7:15 against this specific build. You MUST get a roach warren down at 6:40 by the latest and start producing roaches when it finishes. He is very all in so there is no reason that you cant roach earlier to hold it.
I reject everything that you say. I already admitted my mistakes, and youre being an ass about it. You may not realize it, but you are. While I may have played quite shitty that game, and it happens when you have little experience with a build on top of not playing the game in nearly a month... I still think you put yourself above where you actually are. Get your ego in check and get some manners.
|
On May 06 2012 08:58 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:29 Belial88 wrote:Well, you stated in your first post that you thought that 6/7/8 gate all-in counters fast third play, so what I took from that was that on a strategic level, there is no way to hold it. Quite the contrary, 6/7/8 gates are seen as somewhat outdated these days, and considered quite basic and easy to hold (i think when losira when fast third against anypro or hongun or whatever all-in cheese toss it was on dual sight small map, and held his 7 gate all-in, it validated for everyone that if you can hold this most extreme of all-ins in such a convincing and straightforward way, you can hold anything, and so it became standard, and I'm sure every zerg in the world was practicing how to hold it as every toss learned to execute it). So I pointed out 2 problems in your play - not just the strategic, but your macro as well, as that is probably a big reason why you thought it was such a bo counter. I don't know what other stuff you think is rude or presumptuous. I'm just pointing out the flaws in that game. I don't think I've impressed upon you how basic and major a problem it is that you didn't redirect your original overlord to go towards his base, and you make your 28 overlord ridiculously early and your 36 overlord majorly supply blocked (essentially, you got supply blocked every single time after your 18 overlord). I also pointed that I thought 20 APM was a big factor in this, you largely made drones and put your buildings down on time, and you weren't THAT far behind at 8:00, so you kept up in those areas while faulting in scouting and overlord production. Did you have an off game, or you normally play with 200+ apm, cool, whatever, then I'm sure you've held this all-in easily many times before. I mean, in my guide, I state very clearly - send overlord to natural gas, when to make your first 5 overlords, how to hold a 6/7/8 gate all-in, and a vod example. It was clear you didn't read my guide at all, because this are very simple issues that you could easily identify and have fixed if you read the guide. I'm not trying to talk shit about you, you are obviously a competent player to be in masters and to face such an opponent. I never said any ad hom toward you, I'm sorry you feel that way. I really can't stress enough though, how macro was such a huge factor in your loss, that you had 20 apm and that may explain a lot, and that you made some very basic mistakes. I mean, maybe you could have said "obviously i was off in this game, so I get why I lost, but I was wondering what to do when I come across this build" or something. I don't mean to bash on you because you actually provided a replay, but in terms of "why did I lose this game?", i think it should have been very clear. I really do think you lost because of your APM. I don't know what to tell you, 20 APM average for a 10 minute game is where you see bronze-gold sit at. Day9 has said that it takes about 50 apm to pull off basic building, and that this is very low. I really think you made such major mistakes like not sending your initial overlord toward his base when you figured out where he spawned, losing your scouting drone to a probe, not sending a single overlord towards his base, not putting a ling in front of his base, and ALWAYS having idle larva, is a result of your 20 APM in that game. I don't think APM is important, but at masters, I think you really need at least 60 APM to get by. I mean you never made drones. You just had idle larva all the time, missed injects, overlords were always off. That's fine, everyone does that except high masters, but you literally always had idle larva. Yea, he outplayed you. But I think the problem with your attitude here, is that you are so intent on focusing on him. But that's not the issue. If YOU had fixed some very minor issues, you could have won. I mean, if the guy went 5 gate robo, or 5 gate blink, into third, or immortal/sentry all-in, or some type of build where skill can come through, that's fine. But he literally did a very plain build order, very much similar to a 4 gate, and he won the game instantly. At 8:30 he was in your base, and you just lost right then and there. There was no contest at all, any diamond could have won just by executing the same build, even if his attack came 30 seconds later. You would have beat this very, very high ranked player, if you just: 1. put an overlord over his natural's gas 2. Not get supply blocked at 28 and 36. That's it! Very straightforward. But you blindly made a lair, when making a lair before speed is an autoloss to 6/7/8 gate. You never watched his gas, which means you autolose to 6/7/8 gate because you really have to prepare against it by taking very extraordinary measures (no lair, earlier roach warren, no droning after 8). The game would have been very clear cut if these mistakes didn't occur. You would have gotten ling speed, and would have made enough units to hold his initial 8:30 hit, no matter how good he is. Maybe if it was be more of an issue if it was a 3 minute back and forth. But it wasnt. He followed a build order. At 8:30 he was at your base. You instantly lose your third because you blindly made a lair and skippped ling speed. Please. It's not about your opponent at all in this game. If it was a macro game, sure. But he basically did a 4 gate. Now, yea, we would all lose to naniwa's 4 gate. But none of us would lose to someone who was favored on ladder, doing a 4 gate, if we scouted it, by just seeing he doesnt take his gas - or at least, not immediately. I also think its hilarious as all hell that you now state "Armed with new knowledge, you will beat any ex-GM with even 20 apm on an off day who tries to do a 7 gate allin next time." Really? Initially I must have equal or greater APM to my opponent but now APM doesnt matter! You stated that normally, your APM is 130+, and that your basic macro mistakes were things that *never* happen to you,and you were just off. Trusting what you say here, I think with 130+ APM you will be more than capable of holding any 6/7/8 gate, even a GM level one, when you have an overlord over his natural seeing he didn't take gas, and pumping roaches and lings after a 6:30 roach warren (or even 7 minute) while you skipped lair in favor of ling speed. If anything, it'll be a close game where you lose after a very intensive battle. You certaintly won't just flop the second you see his units the first time. I appreciate the advice (and keep in mind that I am heeding the actual advice given), but what you are saying is just rude and in the case of APM and my opponents level is just wrong. I don't know if you are heeding them. You had some very real problems in this game, and I feel you aren't taking them seriously at all. You are just writing them off by saying "oh, he was such a better player". Look, you know the merits of 60+ APM, because you yourself generally average 100+. So I know that you understand when I say that 20 average APM throughout a 10 minute game in high masters is not enough, and that if you know an all-in is coming and you prepare to defend it, you should win and hold. It doesn't matter if the person is GM level and is doing a double starport banshee build - you know the right response, now you know the 100% surefire way to always scout it, and you will beat it everytime now. I do not say anything rude here, and I would appreciate if you leave out the ad homs. This is my personal opinion on the game that was presented, i really think the opponent's skill level was not the issue, and I really do believe that 20 APM was a major factor in why you made such glaring mistakes like not sending a single overlord ever, towards his base. Please. Understand you were the one that lost, not that he won. There was no fight or struggle in this game, he literally rolled over you because you got supply blocked at 28, 36, and had 20 APM and not enough spare APM to scout at all, and have an overlord by his natural's gas. If you want to disagree with my analysis, that's fine. If you refuse to acknowledge why you lost, or how to improve, that's fine. This is just my analysis, I'm sure others will say 20 APM against a high masters will be more than enough APM, and that blindly being so greedy and skipping ling speed and making a lair and not scouting his natural's gas at all is okay. Once again, I havent disagreed with your analysis or anything of the sort. I also didnt disagree with you that higher than 20 apm is necessary. However, I do have higher than 20 apm and I show it when I need it. Remembering to scout is not an APM block, it is a memory block. It is not REMEMBERING to scout. I REMEMBERED to scout late, it is not I didnt have enough APM to scout. If not scouting were an APM block (for me), then I would never have scouted at all instead of scouted late at a more APM intensive time in the game. Also, you dont have a single vod demonstrating a hold against an 8 gate +1 timing. You dont even mention an 8 gate +1 timing that involves stalkers. In fact, I will go so far as even argue that you in fact can not drone until 8 minutes against such an all in (not this one that is actually refined down to pulling workers off gas). So I actually disagree with your assessment. If you do a traditional drone until 8 minutes against the build that he did, with a 7:15 roach warren you will have maybe 5 roaches popping at the 3rd and 10 popping at your main and natural (at most, actually unlikely) while he has 11 zealots and 7 stalkers already with +1 hammering away at your 3rd. You can not put a roach warren down that late against this build, as you will always at least lose your 3rd. Hell, your VOD of losira holding a 7 gate +1 was entirely different and completely unrefined compared to what I went against (in addition to him hitting the natural instead of the 3rd)... trickster had 5 sentries, 4 zealots 1 stalker and no proxy pylon at 9 minutes (compared to a much more brute force of 13 zealots and 7 stalkers that I faced, with a proxy pylon finished). Thats most of a production round difference in timing for roaches coming out. I am going to go ahead and say that even with perfect execution of the 3 hatch roach build you can not roach warren at 7:15 against this specific build. You MUST get a roach warren down at 6:40 by the latest and start producing roaches when it finishes. He is very all in so there is no reason that you cant roach earlier to hold it. I reject everything that you say. I already admitted my mistakes, and youre being an ass about it. You may not realize it, but you are. While I may have played quite shitty that game, and it happens when you have little experience with a build on top of not playing the game in nearly a month... I still think you put yourself above where you actually are. Get your ego in check and get some manners.
Your mistakes are what cost you the game not his super gosu strategy. Because of the gaping flaws in your basic play no amount of drone cutting or timings was going to save you at that point. You dont ask for help on a game you know you played poorly, ask for help on a game where you thought you did everything right but still lost.
|
On May 06 2012 09:14 Fallians wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 08:58 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 06 2012 00:29 Belial88 wrote:Well, you stated in your first post that you thought that 6/7/8 gate all-in counters fast third play, so what I took from that was that on a strategic level, there is no way to hold it. Quite the contrary, 6/7/8 gates are seen as somewhat outdated these days, and considered quite basic and easy to hold (i think when losira when fast third against anypro or hongun or whatever all-in cheese toss it was on dual sight small map, and held his 7 gate all-in, it validated for everyone that if you can hold this most extreme of all-ins in such a convincing and straightforward way, you can hold anything, and so it became standard, and I'm sure every zerg in the world was practicing how to hold it as every toss learned to execute it). So I pointed out 2 problems in your play - not just the strategic, but your macro as well, as that is probably a big reason why you thought it was such a bo counter. I don't know what other stuff you think is rude or presumptuous. I'm just pointing out the flaws in that game. I don't think I've impressed upon you how basic and major a problem it is that you didn't redirect your original overlord to go towards his base, and you make your 28 overlord ridiculously early and your 36 overlord majorly supply blocked (essentially, you got supply blocked every single time after your 18 overlord). I also pointed that I thought 20 APM was a big factor in this, you largely made drones and put your buildings down on time, and you weren't THAT far behind at 8:00, so you kept up in those areas while faulting in scouting and overlord production. Did you have an off game, or you normally play with 200+ apm, cool, whatever, then I'm sure you've held this all-in easily many times before. I mean, in my guide, I state very clearly - send overlord to natural gas, when to make your first 5 overlords, how to hold a 6/7/8 gate all-in, and a vod example. It was clear you didn't read my guide at all, because this are very simple issues that you could easily identify and have fixed if you read the guide. I'm not trying to talk shit about you, you are obviously a competent player to be in masters and to face such an opponent. I never said any ad hom toward you, I'm sorry you feel that way. I really can't stress enough though, how macro was such a huge factor in your loss, that you had 20 apm and that may explain a lot, and that you made some very basic mistakes. I mean, maybe you could have said "obviously i was off in this game, so I get why I lost, but I was wondering what to do when I come across this build" or something. I don't mean to bash on you because you actually provided a replay, but in terms of "why did I lose this game?", i think it should have been very clear. I really do think you lost because of your APM. I don't know what to tell you, 20 APM average for a 10 minute game is where you see bronze-gold sit at. Day9 has said that it takes about 50 apm to pull off basic building, and that this is very low. I really think you made such major mistakes like not sending your initial overlord toward his base when you figured out where he spawned, losing your scouting drone to a probe, not sending a single overlord towards his base, not putting a ling in front of his base, and ALWAYS having idle larva, is a result of your 20 APM in that game. I don't think APM is important, but at masters, I think you really need at least 60 APM to get by. I mean you never made drones. You just had idle larva all the time, missed injects, overlords were always off. That's fine, everyone does that except high masters, but you literally always had idle larva. Yea, he outplayed you. But I think the problem with your attitude here, is that you are so intent on focusing on him. But that's not the issue. If YOU had fixed some very minor issues, you could have won. I mean, if the guy went 5 gate robo, or 5 gate blink, into third, or immortal/sentry all-in, or some type of build where skill can come through, that's fine. But he literally did a very plain build order, very much similar to a 4 gate, and he won the game instantly. At 8:30 he was in your base, and you just lost right then and there. There was no contest at all, any diamond could have won just by executing the same build, even if his attack came 30 seconds later. You would have beat this very, very high ranked player, if you just: 1. put an overlord over his natural's gas 2. Not get supply blocked at 28 and 36. That's it! Very straightforward. But you blindly made a lair, when making a lair before speed is an autoloss to 6/7/8 gate. You never watched his gas, which means you autolose to 6/7/8 gate because you really have to prepare against it by taking very extraordinary measures (no lair, earlier roach warren, no droning after 8). The game would have been very clear cut if these mistakes didn't occur. You would have gotten ling speed, and would have made enough units to hold his initial 8:30 hit, no matter how good he is. Maybe if it was be more of an issue if it was a 3 minute back and forth. But it wasnt. He followed a build order. At 8:30 he was at your base. You instantly lose your third because you blindly made a lair and skippped ling speed. Please. It's not about your opponent at all in this game. If it was a macro game, sure. But he basically did a 4 gate. Now, yea, we would all lose to naniwa's 4 gate. But none of us would lose to someone who was favored on ladder, doing a 4 gate, if we scouted it, by just seeing he doesnt take his gas - or at least, not immediately. I also think its hilarious as all hell that you now state "Armed with new knowledge, you will beat any ex-GM with even 20 apm on an off day who tries to do a 7 gate allin next time." Really? Initially I must have equal or greater APM to my opponent but now APM doesnt matter! You stated that normally, your APM is 130+, and that your basic macro mistakes were things that *never* happen to you,and you were just off. Trusting what you say here, I think with 130+ APM you will be more than capable of holding any 6/7/8 gate, even a GM level one, when you have an overlord over his natural seeing he didn't take gas, and pumping roaches and lings after a 6:30 roach warren (or even 7 minute) while you skipped lair in favor of ling speed. If anything, it'll be a close game where you lose after a very intensive battle. You certaintly won't just flop the second you see his units the first time. I appreciate the advice (and keep in mind that I am heeding the actual advice given), but what you are saying is just rude and in the case of APM and my opponents level is just wrong. I don't know if you are heeding them. You had some very real problems in this game, and I feel you aren't taking them seriously at all. You are just writing them off by saying "oh, he was such a better player". Look, you know the merits of 60+ APM, because you yourself generally average 100+. So I know that you understand when I say that 20 average APM throughout a 10 minute game in high masters is not enough, and that if you know an all-in is coming and you prepare to defend it, you should win and hold. It doesn't matter if the person is GM level and is doing a double starport banshee build - you know the right response, now you know the 100% surefire way to always scout it, and you will beat it everytime now. I do not say anything rude here, and I would appreciate if you leave out the ad homs. This is my personal opinion on the game that was presented, i really think the opponent's skill level was not the issue, and I really do believe that 20 APM was a major factor in why you made such glaring mistakes like not sending a single overlord ever, towards his base. Please. Understand you were the one that lost, not that he won. There was no fight or struggle in this game, he literally rolled over you because you got supply blocked at 28, 36, and had 20 APM and not enough spare APM to scout at all, and have an overlord by his natural's gas. If you want to disagree with my analysis, that's fine. If you refuse to acknowledge why you lost, or how to improve, that's fine. This is just my analysis, I'm sure others will say 20 APM against a high masters will be more than enough APM, and that blindly being so greedy and skipping ling speed and making a lair and not scouting his natural's gas at all is okay. Once again, I havent disagreed with your analysis or anything of the sort. I also didnt disagree with you that higher than 20 apm is necessary. However, I do have higher than 20 apm and I show it when I need it. Remembering to scout is not an APM block, it is a memory block. It is not REMEMBERING to scout. I REMEMBERED to scout late, it is not I didnt have enough APM to scout. If not scouting were an APM block (for me), then I would never have scouted at all instead of scouted late at a more APM intensive time in the game. Also, you dont have a single vod demonstrating a hold against an 8 gate +1 timing. You dont even mention an 8 gate +1 timing that involves stalkers. In fact, I will go so far as even argue that you in fact can not drone until 8 minutes against such an all in (not this one that is actually refined down to pulling workers off gas). So I actually disagree with your assessment. If you do a traditional drone until 8 minutes against the build that he did, with a 7:15 roach warren you will have maybe 5 roaches popping at the 3rd and 10 popping at your main and natural (at most, actually unlikely) while he has 11 zealots and 7 stalkers already with +1 hammering away at your 3rd. You can not put a roach warren down that late against this build, as you will always at least lose your 3rd. Hell, your VOD of losira holding a 7 gate +1 was entirely different and completely unrefined compared to what I went against (in addition to him hitting the natural instead of the 3rd)... trickster had 5 sentries, 4 zealots 1 stalker and no proxy pylon at 9 minutes (compared to a much more brute force of 13 zealots and 7 stalkers that I faced, with a proxy pylon finished). Thats most of a production round difference in timing for roaches coming out. I am going to go ahead and say that even with perfect execution of the 3 hatch roach build you can not roach warren at 7:15 against this specific build. You MUST get a roach warren down at 6:40 by the latest and start producing roaches when it finishes. He is very all in so there is no reason that you cant roach earlier to hold it. I reject everything that you say. I already admitted my mistakes, and youre being an ass about it. You may not realize it, but you are. While I may have played quite shitty that game, and it happens when you have little experience with a build on top of not playing the game in nearly a month... I still think you put yourself above where you actually are. Get your ego in check and get some manners. Your mistakes are what cost you the game not his super gosu strategy. Because of the gaping flaws in your basic play no amount of drone cutting or timings was going to save you at that point. You dont ask for help on a game you know you played poorly, ask for help on a game where you thought you did everything right but still lost.
I asked for help because I felt that the standard timings would not work against that build. I realize my mistakes definitely did not help, and I have stated this about a million times. I dont play enough to be able to ask for help on a game that I play well on (and because most of the time when I play well, I dont lose and those that I do lose... I know why I lost). Given the fact that I have now looked a bit into the replay some more and have come to the realization that you are basically guaranteed to at least lose the 3rd against this build if you dont get a roach warren down sooner I have locked in what I need to do the next time I encounter it.
When you get good enough that you can realize and correct your own mistakes, but need to discuss what to possibly do differently in the future to hold something off then you can unabashedly post a game where you played horribly and discuss the things that need to be done against it in the future, regardless of your own play (because you can already correct your own play).
|
How exactly do you know to get a 6:30 roach warren to stop the 4 gate +1 attack if you don't overlord scout until 7:00 at the earliest?
|
On May 06 2012 09:43 Effay wrote:
How exactly do you know to get a 6:30 roach warren to stop the 4 gate +1 attack if you don't overlord scout until 7:00 at the earliest?
Warp gate tech finishes at ~8 minutes for gateway builds off FFE. Dropping it at 6:30 provides enough time for the warren to finish as well as get 4 or so roaches, which should be enough to completely shut down 4 gate aggression.
|
On May 06 2012 09:43 Effay wrote:
How exactly do you know to get a 6:30 roach warren to stop the 4 gate +1 attack if you don't overlord scout until 7:00 at the earliest?
He says in the guide, but no gas at the nat is a tell of some sort of early pressure. You cant distiguish whether its a 4gate +1 or 6/7/8 gate till the 7:30 ish mark when he'll either take 2 more gas or, have none, or your overlord will have scouted everything.
|
Belial what do you think about a 2 hatch opening that uses an early ling speed, lair, and hyrdas for defending toss pressure? Day9 did a daily on it I think back in Feb. Defends 4gate +1 with pure ling, and any 8-10 minute blink stalker/immo sentry push with ling hyrda.
|
On May 06 2012 12:38 Buckshot9044 wrote:
Belial what do you think about a 2 hatch opening that uses an early ling speed, lair, and hyrdas for defending toss pressure? Day9 did a daily on it I think back in Feb. Defends 4gate +1 with pure ling, and any 8-10 minute blink stalker/immo sentry push with ling hyrda.
Wasn't this the daily about Zenio? I remember Day[9] talking about how Zenio built a preemptive hydralisk den while waiting for mutalisks in order to fend off any P aggression.
|
On May 06 2012 08:58 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Remembering to scout is not an APM block, it is a memory block. It is not REMEMBERING to scout. I REMEMBERED to scout late, it is not I didnt have enough APM to scout. If not scouting were an APM block (for me), then I would never have scouted at all instead of scouted late at a more APM intensive time in the game.
Maybe you don't understand what I was saying. I was saying you had an average of 20ish APM that whole game. Maybe your APM can spike to 300+, whatever, but having an average of 20 APM in a 10 minute game in high masters, is really low. Diamonds generally average around the 60's.
You never did scout at all... that's the thing. That's why I think your APM was a factor in your loss here. You never, ever sent an overlord towards his base, until after the 7:00 mark, and from your main, which was way too late. You should have known that sending an overlord the opponent's base, is the first thing you should do with your first 2-3 overlords. You didn't scout late, you just made zero effort the entire game to ever scout.
I've had enough of this APM discussion. We've both said what we believe in, you obviously aren't going to agree that having 20 average APM throughout a 10 minute game is too low in a high masters game, and that this contributed in you losing your scouting worker to probes, not sending a single overlord toward his base, not checking the front of his base with a ling, never making any effort, ever, to scout (an overlord at 8:00 when stalkers in your base, sent from your main, is not helpful), and always having idle larva.
edit: i think in the day9 'probes and pylons', he showed that basic macro was easy and could be done just using the mouse and no keyboard, and that it only took 50 APM. How in the world do you have 20 average apm in masters, seriously. that blows my mind, platinum dont have 20 apm in 10 minutes of a game. But whatever, you already stated your actual average APM is always 100+, you were just somehow really off in this game...
Also, you dont have a single vod demonstrating a hold against an 8 gate +1 timing. You dont even mention an 8 gate +1 timing that involves stalkers. In fact, I will go so far as even argue that you in fact can not drone until 8 minutes against such an all in (not this one that is actually refined down to pulling workers off gas). So I actually disagree with your assessment. If you do a traditional drone until 8 minutes against the build that he did, with a 7:15 roach warren you will have maybe 5 roaches popping at the 3rd and 10 popping at your main and natural (at most, actually unlikely) while he has 11 zealots and 7 stalkers already with +1 hammering away at your 3rd. You can not put a roach warren down that late against this build, as you will always at least lose your 3rd.
Hell, your VOD of losira holding a 7 gate +1 was entirely different and completely unrefined compared to what I went against (in addition to him hitting the natural instead of the 3rd)... trickster had 5 sentries, 4 zealots 1 stalker and no proxy pylon at 9 minutes (compared to a much more brute force of 13 zealots and 7 stalkers that I faced, with a proxy pylon finished). Thats most of a production round difference in timing for roaches coming out.
uh...what?
6/7/8 gates are all the same. You respond the exact same way, they are scouted the exact same way, and they are all just as all-in. No one responds in a way expecting a 6 gate+1, and then dies because it was actually an 8 gate. All of these builds are the same, with minor pros and cons - an extra gate, less probes and slightly lower production but more forgiving to miss a warp-in, an upgrade, but less units or production, etc. They all hit you are 8:30, they all kill you if you went lair before speed and have no earlier roach warren and pump units.
It has nothing to do with stalkers... You are just outright wrong here. Any Toss can go 8 gate +1, and just make a zealot instead of a stalker. All 6/7/8 gate builds though, have very few sentries, if any at all, and are largely a 50/50 mix of zealot/stalker.
You can disagree all you want, but you are just plain wrong. The build would have been beat if you followed my guide on what I say about 6/7/8 gate all-ins - you see he didnt take gas at his nat, so you dont get lair and instead get speed, and you pump roaches when 6:30 warren, that you made earlier because of toss not having gas, pops, and you continue to pump units if he continues his aggression.
Trickster pushed out and was on Zerg territory by 8:30 in that vod. In your game, your opponent wasn't exactly in your base at 8:30 either. They both were shooting zerg stuf at 8:45ish. Your opponent did not have a proxy pylon set up either.
I can't believe you seriously think it's a different build... You can't afford more than 6 gate +1 or 7 gate - anything else or more, like 8 gate +1, means that he will have much less stalkers and sentries (sometimes they may have 1-4 sentries, but not if you go 8 gate +1), much less production (it's impossible for 40 probes to produce stalkers out of 8 gates...). You hold both builds exactly the same. It's not that hard to understand.
If you had done exactly what Losira did - saw no gas, made earlier warren, not gotten lair, got ling speed, pumped units at 8:00, you would have easily won. You failed to do that, and even if you did do that, your macro was horrible. It's 100% a priority to put an overlord by Toss' gas at the natural, you will see EVERY zerg player do this.
I am going to go ahead and say that even with perfect execution of the 3 hatch roach build you can not roach warren at 7:15 against this specific build. You MUST get a roach warren down at 6:40 by the latest and start producing roaches when it finishes. He is very all in so there is no reason that you cant roach earlier to hold it.
Right. I said that in the guide. Not because of the build though, but because based on what you scout, a 4 gate +1 pressure looks the exact same (JUST NO GAS AT TOSS NATURAL, BECAUSE YOU PUT AN OVERLORD THERE), so you make a 6:30 warren. Thanks for reading the guide.
I reject everything that you say. I already admitted my mistakes, and youre being an ass about it. You may not realize it, but you are. While I may have played quite shitty that game, and it happens when you have little experience with a build on top of not playing the game in nearly a month... I still think you put yourself above where you actually are. Get your ego in check and get some manners.
Okay. I'm going to tell you something.
I listen to the Howard Stern radio show. I love it. Great stuff. There's a staff member called Sal on it. Now, Sal is not an idiot, but he is when it comes to history. As in, he doesn't know if the revolutionary, civil, or ww1, came first. He thinks Buzz Aldrin made the movie transformers. He thinks that Roosevelt got us into Vietnam, and he killed JFK because JFK wanted us out of Vietnam. He's not a retard or anything, he just is totally out of it when it comes to history. Everything else - science, math, he's just average on.
Now, Sal insists that history is not a big deal, he doesn't give a shit about history, who cares, it doesn't affect him, what does this have to do with his job or what he's going to do tommorow.
But what he fails to realize, is that this isn't like a minor thing. This isn't like "oh he's just bad at history". He is completely unaware, but he looks like a jackass for his ridiculousness when it comes to history, and that he sooooo off. It's ironic, because he's the guy who does the 'on the street' style interviews with hookers and models, making fun of them by asking them if they know addition, who the president is, etc.
Well, you are kind of like Sal. You really don't think that 20 APM had an effect on your lack of scouting, or that how to hold a 6 gate +1, is the same as holding any sort of plain, 8:30 gateway all-in. You really don't think it's a big deal, or that you getting supply blocked every single time after 18, is what cost you the game. But it is. It totally is. You have such very basic, major flaws in your gameplay, or at least in this game, that it's just ruining you. You don't send a single overlord toward the natural gas of Toss. You make lair blindly. You never make drones.
It's a problem dude. A huge problem. Watch any game of any pro zerg. You will see they do these things - that they are 65 or higher in supply by 8:00. They don't get supply blocked, ever, at 28 or 36, much less at all in the first 8 minutes. They *always* send their first overlord to the natural gas of Toss. And they all hold the 6/7/8 gate all-in exactly as how I say to - they see no gas at Toss natural, and they make ling speed, they don't get lair at all, and they make a slightly earlier roach warren and pump units as soon as it finishes. You can watch any mid-masters Zerg, they don't get supply blocked at 28, 36, and they send an overlord to Toss natural.
Anyways, it's pretty clear you refuse to learn anything from me. I don't know why you even bothered posting in here. You clearly didn't read a single part of my guide, you refuse to take my advice when everyone here has accepted that it is correct (not because I am saying anything new or novel, but because I'm saying very basic stuff that all higher level people already know, and lower level people generally know but may pick up some extra tips on). I'm pretty sure that anyone else reading out conversation, would side with me over you. If you disagree, feel free to make a thread of your replay, and see the responses you get.
But you are just like the low league people in that "Macro better = Diamond+" thread by Cecil. They insist that the problems they make are that big, and they refuse to acknowledge that macro is a huge part of the game. By having such a negative attitude, they will stagnate and never improve.
That's the end of our talk. You just continue to attack me, when I have made perfectly clear my stance. You played like shit, you admit you played like shit, I don't know why you find this so offensive if you have 100+ APM and you know you played bad that game. You obviously refuse to learn anything - well, this is my guide, my thread. I'm telling you like I see it. If you don't like how I see it, then quit asking me!
|
I asked for help because I felt that the standard timings would not work against that build. I realize my mistakes definitely did not help, and I have stated this about a million times. I dont play enough to be able to ask for help on a game that I play well on (and because most of the time when I play well, I dont lose and those that I do lose... I know why I lost). Given the fact that I have now looked a bit into the replay some more and have come to the realization that you are basically guaranteed to at least lose the 3rd against this build if you dont get a roach warren down sooner I have locked in what I need to do the next time I encounter it.
No, you don't. You will have no clue how to face it next time because you don't send an overlord to his natural. You see no gas at his natural, make a 6:30 roach warren, pump units when it pops. That's it. If he's doing a 6/7/8 gate instead of 4 gate +1, you can get away with a 7:00 'standard' roach warren, as long as you are pumping units after 8:00 (lings) - but since 4 gate +1 and 6/7/8 gate look exactly the same with your scouting overlords, you would make a 6:30 roach warren anyways. Just the difference is if you screwed up and forgot it for 30 seconds, you won't lose like you would against 4 gate +1.
How exactly do you know to get a 6:30 roach warren to stop the 4 gate +1 attack if you don't overlord scout until 7:00 at the earliest?
You sacrifice an overlord into his main at 7:00+. The first overlord that you start out with, should be sent directly to his natural's geysers, so you can spot them and how he takes them (2 gas taken right when nexus finishes is a dead ringer to double stargate, 2 gas taken at 7:00 could be many things, most usually gateway all-ins though). You should have an overlord over his natural gas by around 3:00 or earlier depending on map size.
Belial what do you think about a 2 hatch opening that uses an early ling speed, lair, and hyrdas for defending toss pressure? Day9 did a daily on it I think back in Feb. Defends 4gate +1 with pure ling, and any 8-10 minute blink stalker/immo sentry push with ling hyrda.
I think it's a horrible all-in that's extremely outdated, but it has a lot of potential if Toss opens FFE into single stargate. Toss should not go 4 gate +1 if he sees you didn't take fast third, and obviously took gas, and obviously staying on 2 base - he should just macro up, defend, come out way ahead.
Any type of 2 base build, you HAVE to do a huge damage against FFE, or else you are really far behind. In some cases, like 2 base muta on TDA, it's pretty easy to do economic damage and not be too far behind if you play it right and Toss didn't counter your build (either blindly, or because it's obvious when you didn't go fast third, and didn't go roach/ling).
I discuss 2 base hydra in my Zerg All-ins section.
Holding 2 base Toss aggression is not the plan with it though. It should be you doing the aggression and Toss defending. You should start lair ~35 and have hydra den planted ~50-55. It's really all-in, 2 base muta or infestor isn't nearly as all-in (neither will likely kill Toss off straight up though, but won't leave you so far behind if you don't, and is more likely to do at least some damage too).
If you go 2 base lair against FFE, and you are defending, there's no way to win. Toss can simply just take a third as he has total map control and keeps you in your base, and really there's just no way to win from that point. If you go 2 base lair against FFE, you have to be the aggressor, and if you fail to outright kill Toss, you need to have map control and keep him in his base, do at least some damage, and take your third while you still have an army advantage.
|
I am not going to respond to your entire post, because either I have not spoken a word of english, or you dont listen to me, or you are just trolling me. However, I am going to pick this little bit out because it is so horribly explained
You sacrifice an overlord into his main at 7:00+. The first overlord that you start out with, should be sent directly to his natural's geysers, so you can spot them and how he takes them (2 gas taken right when nexus finishes is a dead ringer to double stargate, 2 gas taken at 7:00 could be many things, most usually gateway all-ins though). You should have an overlord over his natural gas by around 3:00 or earlier depending on map size.
He is asking how you are supposed to know to throw down a roach warren at 6:30 if you dont scout until 7:00. If you follow the guide to the letter, then you will never know to throw down a roach warren at 6:30 because you havent scouted yet... that doesnt happen for another 30 seconds. So to him, it seems like a blind roach warren at 6:30 because scouting has yet to occur.
|
Your first overlord is watching the gas at his natural all game long. As soon as it finds the opponents base it goes and camps behind the natural geysers. The 7:00 scout is the other overlord checking out his main (or maybe both overlords).
My main concern is that one of the most common builds for the 2-3 immortal 7-gate stays on 2 gas for quite a while, then double gases the natural between 7:00 and 7:15, and this is very different from an aggressive 7-gate. you really don't want an early roach warren against that, because you need every single drone to stop it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
