EPT[G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvP! - Page…
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
On April 28 2012 18:21 Belial88 wrote: Interesting. I will just have to claim ignorance on that one then. I guess it should be pretty obvious that when his gateway is clearly finished when your drone scout arrives when normally the gateway is still warping in, but I imagine just making reactive lings or a spine to walk down to the natural would be enough? Won't you see the zealot walking towards you? Well i choose not to drone scout, but they basically chrono 3+ zealots out and try to snipe the hatch, occasionally they throw down a cannon aswell for kicks which essentially dooms the hatch, bare in mind this is high master so their micro is typically pretty good.. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I decided not to say in the guide "you better fucking drone scout", but I really strongly believe it's better. I guess since not every pro does it, I can't put it in the guide (since the point of this guide is that it's all 'standard' or 'general practice' and very little of my own personal preferences besides that I obviously prefer macro play and 'safe' play rather than chancing it). Got any replay/vod examples? Right now I'm currently digging up vod/replays to expand that section of the guide, I think I've covered literally everything in zvp so far. I'm aware that gateway into reactive forge is autowin against hatch first, but I haven't really seen or heard about 10 gate, or gate/forge vs pool first. | ||
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Eee
Sweden2712 Posts
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jumai
Canada115 Posts
Original Message From Belial88: Subtlety ^^ Your welcome to bring it upp in my thread though, I think this is going somewhere. | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On April 29 2012 04:56 Eee wrote: I have a question and idk if i missed this, you say the counter to 2 base deathball play is either mutas/macroing better + massing roaches. But how do I know if he's going for a 2 base deathball play or is going 3 base, when is the timing i should be looking for his third base? And how should I react to two base deathball play? A protoss generally wants to take his third before the 11-minute mark. But you should be saturated on 3 bases by ~8-9 minutes anyway. It doesn't matter if he's going for a 3rd or for an all-in, churning out roaches counters both 2 base all-ins and attempts to take a 3rd, that's the beauty of it. On April 29 2012 04:56 Eee wrote: should I await his attack passivley or should I pressure his front, forcing him to make units so he can't focus on massing colossus while he's turtling? Pressuring a 2 base protoss with sentries and cannons is not worth it, you won't be able to do any damage. Use your units to deny the 3rd as long as you can instead, force him to trade units in the open between the natural and the third. | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
On April 28 2012 19:51 Belial88 wrote: ^ Mind explaining why you don't drone scout? I decided not to say in the guide "you better fucking drone scout", but I really strongly believe it's better. I guess since not every pro does it, I can't put it in the guide (since the point of this guide is that it's all 'standard' or 'general practice' and very little of my own personal preferences besides that I obviously prefer macro play and 'safe' play rather than chancing it). Got any replay/vod examples? Right now I'm currently digging up vod/replays to expand that section of the guide, I think I've covered literally everything in zvp so far. I'm aware that gateway into reactive forge is autowin against hatch first, but I haven't really seen or heard about 10 gate, or gate/forge vs pool first. Not drone scouting is just personal preferance, and I'm sure one of these days im going to have to start as I reckon Protoss will get cheeky and throw like 1 gas in main and 1 in nat and proceed to 6gate. The gateway into forge is incredibly gimmicky obviously, I'll try dig up some replays for you. | ||
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Eee
Sweden2712 Posts
On April 29 2012 07:29 VoirDire wrote: A protoss generally wants to take his third before the 11-minute mark. But you should be saturated on 3 bases by ~8-9 minutes anyway. It doesn't matter if he's going for a 3rd or for an all-in, churning out roaches counters both 2 base all-ins and attempts to take a 3rd, that's the beauty of it. Pressuring a 2 base protoss with sentries and cannons is not worth it, you won't be able to do any damage. Use your units to deny the 3rd as long as you can instead, force him to trade units in the open between the natural and the third. So if he hasn't taken a third by 11 minutes, should I be maxing out on roaches then/countering whatever he's going for or should I try to works towards that broodlord/infestor composition as fast as possible? | ||
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On April 29 2012 08:34 Eee wrote: So if he hasn't taken a third by 11 minutes, should I be maxing out on roaches then/countering whatever he's going for or should I try to works towards that broodlord/infestor composition as fast as possible? If he's on 2 bases definitely don't go hive. Make an overseer when your lair finishes, and figure out his plan. If he's going 2base non-collossus allin, make it a goal to max out on roach/ling before he hits. If it's a collosus allin, go up to 6 gas, saturate your third, go up to spire, and try to max out on roach/corruptor/ling. If he's taking a third base, progress with your normal game plan, whatever that may be. | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Drone scouting is so you know he's going 2gate instead of gate/core when your overlord sees no pylon at natural, and forcing him to put all his tech into natural to avoid showing to drone, which you can easily spot with overlord later on. But I think you might be able to hod 1010 gate with 15p/16h, so I don't know. I always manage to block toss from going nexus first after scouting I went 14 pool, and it tells me I can go for a fast hatch without having to leave a drone patrolling the ramp. Eeee - voirdoir gave you a great response, but I think your understanding of the mach up is what is limited here (read zvp game flow section). If toss is going stargate/colossi on 2 base, he won't be able to secure his third against 10 zerlings until he reallys gets 2+ colossi. You aren't necessarily trying to all-in with max roaches (although that is a great reaction to someone who is going deathball, on its own) - what you are trying to do, is force toss to be honest before taking his third, That's why colossi on 2 base, or deathball play is so shitty. By making just some roaches, you can deny toss from getting his third until 3+ colissi, which takes forever, and is past 13 minute. From there, you can really do anything, as toss will be too far behind to win. Nowadays, deathball play doesn't work because zergs know how to keep a lead. You can fast track to hive, or go mutas. Id really recommend anytime toss goes fast colossi, go for mutas. They are just so awesome against them, especially if you have a lead, like having delayed their third for forever. He can't have many phoenix if he goes to robo immediately after stargate on 2 base. Just add some corruptors. If toss is going 2 base colossus, you need to identify the timing Khamub. Naniwa came up with an extremely strong colossi all in in zvp that will kill you if you go for mutas (or that's how I understood it). If toss is goiing 2 base colossus, just mass roach/ling. Once its about 12 minute, and your econ has really kicked in hard and your tech is up, you will crush any colossus based army, and then you deny his third and just go into mutas (or whatever you want). I don't think corruptors are ever used to counter colossi anymore :O | ||
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XxJuicexX
United States48 Posts
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Nasreth
United States48 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
This guide, up to about 2 days ago, was only a fast third vs FFE guide. Then I edited it, and more than tripled the content, and turned it into a complete zvp guide. There's a big ass section on gateway first and 1 base openings from Toss. I said exactly what you are saying, and much more. Please, if the layout of my guide is confusing, let me know, but I think it's pretty clear where I talk about gateway expands... | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
dude you can do a ZvT guide please. Later. I don't know how 'comprehensive' it can be though, I really dislike making roaches anytime before 3 bases in ZvT (only exception is maybe against mech... but even then I prefer not to), and I think infestor play is inferior to muta play. I know that not everyone thinks this, including pros like Idra, so it's totally my personal opinion. I really just feel that infestor play in ZvT is only viable because certain maps are just horrible for zerg, ie mutas. Maps like Antiga and Entombed, imo, favor terran so hard - lack of airspace, counterattack routes, super easy third, that mutas almost become unviable. But as a result, infestors, which I largely see as not really viable (or maybe 'shitty' is a better term to say than viable), becomes viable/not-as-shitty, because factors that make mutas suck, such as lack of airspace to make drops harder to pull off, super close together bases that make defending drops using ground units instead of air units much easier, easy third for fast hive play while most T's just go expand instead of pressure... So I don't know how I feel about infestor play in ZvT yet. I feel anyone, of any race, can take advantage of someone turtling by simply being greedy themselves, which I dont think benefits zerg. but I feel certain maps force zerg to go infestor, because muta sucks so much on it and infestors become okay. They are still terran favored maps, but I think it's the maps that are making zergs go infestor, not because they are actually a strong strategy on their own. So if i made a guide, it would be about ling/bane/muta into bl/infestor. Maybe I could have a guest-writer talk about infestor play or roach into third openers (something I've experimented with, but I wouldnt claim to know all about, and I prefer 2 base muta to it). I could still write a very comprehensive guide, but not an all-everything guide. That said, I could write an awesome guide about ZvT going ling/bane/muta, and just about everything in ZvT except infestor play (scouting, 1 base play, T strats, etc). | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
I also think checking gas at the natural is important to scout but not the only thing, checking the forge and cybercore is more important I think. Quick +1 on the forge puts toss into gateway pressure, blink +2 or possibly a fast third. No quick +1 puts toss into quick robo or stargate basically. Chrono on warpgate can often tell the difference between blink and +1 attack builds. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
You can't really check the forge on most maps, due to the ramp at the natural. I mention forge scouting, and it's pretty obvious what a spinning forge means. I don't need to write it in the guide to explain it to people, and I"m writing the guide based on the assumption that it's a standard map, and giving the core stuff to rely on. Like the drone scouting section, for example. I explain it, but I give lots of information, assuming that most people don't drone scout (for whatever reason). You don't need to see the forge to deduce what's going on, and just because it isn't spinning, doesn't mean it isn't going to be a gate all-in. I also don't think it's worth losing a ling or 2 to check for, and you can use your overlord from natural to check it as well. I don't know if you can actually tell if it's 2 upgrades or one, either. You would have to constantly watch it to realize that it stopped upgrading, then started again, and again, it could be any sort of gate pressure if forge did 2 upgrades. I think you'd also be a little late in preparation if you figured out "oh shit i should stop droning" when you see the 2nd upgrade start. No quick +1 could be anything. Doesnt mean quick robo or stargate. So you are basically advocating making 6+ lings at the start of the game, 2 for watch towers, 2 checking for the probe, and 2+ to see check chronos and forge? It is just too much to lose. Sorry, I just don't really agree with you. I think you are bringing up some good stuff though, I can see this discussion going somewhere. I just think you can deduce enough with gas scout and overlord sac, and intuition, and using a ling to scout the forge/core on maps with ramps is relying too much on something that i think is too costly and not solid enough to rely upon. I think most people can figure out for themselves, without me saying in the guide, that checking the forge/core/gate if you can on maps without a ramp, or with your overlord, is good info. | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
I can supply some replays for this if you want aswell. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
They don't get the other 2 gas, that's the thing. If they get the other 2 gas, it's because they are doing something else. Which becomes essentially a new stage of the game. It's like saying "You should add a section about how to deal with a stargate made after a proxy 2 gate". Deal with the proxy 2 gate, or in this case, the 4 gate+1 first, and then deal with the stargate/2 gas later. Each is a different and unique opportunity to either get ahead, or fall behind. But yea, generally toss gets the other 2 gas after 4 gate +1. That's no secret. But you should have lair done by then, and you can see for yourself what is up. | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
On April 29 2012 19:39 Belial88 wrote: 4 gate doesn't get the other 2 gas, that's the thing. You see they just don't have gas at their natural, so you need to suspect both 4 gate +1 and 6/7/8 gate. You can't really reliably figure out which of the two he's going for, so just throw down a 6:30 warren and pump out roaches. It'll be obvious which one he's doing when he either attacks with 4 zealots at 8:00, or not, and you can respond accordingly and be way ahead, because both variations put toss really far behind if he doesnt do a ton of damage. They don't get the other 2 gas, that's the thing. If they get the other 2 gas, it's because they are doing something else. Which becomes essentially a new stage of the game. It's like saying "You should add a section about how to deal with a stargate made after a proxy 2 gate". Deal with the proxy 2 gate, or in this case, the 4 gate+1 first, and then deal with the stargate/2 gas later. Each is a different and unique opportunity to either get ahead, or fall behind. But yea, generally toss gets the other 2 gas after 4 gate +1. That's no secret. But you should have lair done by then, and you can see for yourself what is up. Thats not what I mean, what I was trying to say is the timing when a 4gate +1 does take the other 2 gasses, in order to go down their tech path. Edit: As this gas timing could indicate whether its a gateway all in or just a 4gate +1. Edit again =p: You say that I should have lair by that point in theory, but don't you say to not get lair if they don't have atleast 3 gas Maybe the timings a bit arbitrary and irrelevant but it could be something to add. | ||
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