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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I would appreciate if a mod could change the title to: [G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvP! alternatives if that doesn't fit: + Show Spoiler + [G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to ZvP! [G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to ZvP [G]Belial's Comprehensive Guide to ZvP! [G] Belial's Guide is so much better than that shitty Swooozy guide that caused him to write this guide in the first place haha banned bitch ZvP! Thanks | ||
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Bellazuk
Canada146 Posts
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
My personal thoughts on tang aside, it's an effective build. | ||
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LazinCajun
United States294 Posts
Well done, thanks for doing the work to write this up! | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On April 27 2012 13:47 KhAmun wrote: You should add in the 3hatch ling/bane allin tang did a guide on the allin section. My personal thoughts on tang aside, it's an effective build. Well, that all-in is based on a guide/strat that Tang came up with. The all-in section is about general all ins that have been popular in the metagame at some time, and 'proven' to be effective (or rather, proven to be poular, which may or may not indicate effectiveness - I mean no insult). What he wrote, is a very specific guide he came up, that's his. I would include it if it was very popular in pro play, but I haven't seen that. Basically, what I'm trying to say is the all in section is basic coverage of popular all ins, and I don't want to 'rip off' a guide/all in that someone came up with, that they put a lot of effort into and is uniquely their own. I'm trying to keep this guide pretty devoid of personal styles, but rather as a solid baseline that everyone does follow in zvp. I have seen dimaga practice it, but I'm not sure if he actually likes it or uses it. I haven't done it either, so ill try it out, but he's always been pretty open that his strats aren't meant for top tier play. I aim for this guide to be something that everyone agrees with and follows, all the way up. | ||
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On April 27 2012 14:02 Belial88 wrote: Well, that all-in is based on a guide/strat that Tang came up with. The all-in section is about general all ins that have been popular in the metagame at some time, and 'proven' to be effective (or rather, proven to be poular, which may or may not indicate effectiveness - I mean no insult). What he wrote, is a very specific guide he came up, that's his. I would include it if it was very popular in pro play, but I haven't seen that. Basically, what I'm trying to say is the all in section is basic coverage of popular all ins, and I don't want to 'rip off' a guide/all in that someone came up with, that they put a lot of effort into and is uniquely their own. I'm trying to keep this guide pretty devoid of personal styles, but rather as a solid baseline that everyone does follow in zvp. I have seen dimaga practice it, but I'm not sure if he actually likes it or uses it. I haven't done it either, so ill try it out, but he's always been pretty open that his strats aren't meant for top tier play. I aim for this guide to be something that everyone agrees with and follows, all the way up. But it isn't uniquely his own, he copied the build from zenio, who you can find replays executing said build in tang's guide, and he obv plays at the highest levels. I've executed the build a few times, and have definitely had success with it. If you're worried about ripping a build from someone else's guide, you can simply provide a link, as to not steal credit. I'm just suggesting you add the build because it's not only viable, but it goes along with your theme of attempting to making an extremely encompassing guide. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On April 27 2012 14:35 Belial88 wrote: Ah, okay. I try not to watch pro games too much (try to play more with the limited time I have). Ill study up on it and add it once I try it out and learn what toss can do that makes the build work well or not.Ill be sure to give credit where its due. When protoss goes zealot-zealot-stalker it's pretty good, but like any allin, it's a coinflip. If they were planning sentry heavy play, and their first gas units from gateway are sentry, you're definitely in some trouble. | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
I made a humongous mistake forgetting ling speed AND roach speed...still crushed him with slow lings and roaches because i simply had way more stuff. Great guide, thank you. Improving mechanics one benchmark at a time  Btw, I had 68 supply @ 8:00 high gold player, former high diamond from seasons 1 & 2...after a long break i got a lot of catching up to do to get back up there! | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
A lot of zergs will forego liing speed for a long time - its already standard to get ling speed after lair. As long as Toss isn't gasless, you really don't need speed until 9:00 I think (if no speed, will need roaches unless toss does no timing exactly when wg finishes). Glad the guide helped though! You should really incorporate benchmarking in all of your play. I currently try to meet 45 supply quicker and quicker vs terran expands ( as long as T expanded and didn't open 2+ rax expand, its when speed has already been started and you'd throw down macro hatch/third), 45 suppply in zvz (aggression changes this, but as long a z expanded and isn't massing lings asap and you get 2 queens, speed, 1 spine, 4-6 banes)... | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
On April 27 2012 16:27 Belial88 wrote: GThanks, and nice! Good job! I struggle to hit 68 supply in mid masters (ugh, beat by a gold? You can never overestimate how shitty your macro really is). A lot of zergs will forego liing speed for a long time - its already standard to get ling speed after lair. As long as Toss isn't gasless, you really don't need speed until 9:00 I think (if no speed, will need roaches unless toss does no timing exactly when wg finishes). Glad the guide helped though! You should really incorporate benchmarking in all of your play. I currently try to meet 45 supply quicker and quicker vs terran expands ( as long as T expanded and didn't open 2+ rax expand, its when speed has already been started and you'd throw down macro hatch/third), 45 suppply in zvz (aggression changes this, but as long a z expanded and isn't massing lings asap and you get 2 queens, speed, 1 spine, 4-6 banes)... I wouldn't give me too much credit, the protoss applied absolutely ZERO pressure and I was able to focus 100% of my macro on attaining my high food count (aside from creep spread). I imagine in mid masters the protoss dont just let you macro uncontested every game lol | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Guys, if you have read my guide already, be awae I've doubled the content, so check it out again. I have a changelog up top saying what I added! | ||
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DeOnlineGamer
United Kingdom12 Posts
 .I have lost a couple of times to early voidray plays but it's more due to me not making enough queens or bad scouting I think. Anyway keep up the good work! | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Double stargate can really screw you over of course, but I've held it plenty of times when blind by just throwing down 10+ spores at the base in question and derping over my queens to buy time, as I prepare defenses elsewhere, queue up more queens, and add a spore or two at the other bases or where I think he may go next (only need to spore up main or nat, don't need to do both - rerooting spines is a very strong tactic, after the buff a single void can't kill a single spore before it finishes rooting). Just if you see 4 gas taken, and are still in the dark at 9:30, chances are that you should be putting down at least 1 spore per base, maybe an extra queen. Expand/Macro play is obvious as Toss tries to set up for this third (just like with 3g expand, at 5:00 they start to put a pylon on low ground, have their zealot/3xsentries at the bottom of the ramp, etc) around 9:00, gateway all-ins are obvious because he is making a bunch of units and your overseer sees he has a bunch of army units. So 4 gas, 9:30 you are still unsure, obviously need spores. Anyways, I"m glad you like the guide! | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
Great guide once again, even in GM it still helps alot! Edit: also do you know what the best response to a +1 zealot 4gate with vrays is? It's the only build i feel really vulnerable too. (My biggest flaw in this is probably not getting the 6:30 roach warren to deny the zealots killing spores) and finally, zealot stalker stalker, best method to deal with this? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I talk about star 4 gate (don't know if I mention it by name). As for 4 gate +1 into stargate, that's simply 2 different things. React accordingly to the +1 4 gate with 630 warren, and if toss adds a stargate afterwards (seeing it with overseer is good, but if you delay lair because upon seeing no gas because you are worried its 6 gate that's perfectly fine, you should realize you are safe to lair once you realize its obviously 4gate +1 hitting you, and then seeing initial void with overlord or when it moves across map or when first vr hits your base and well 1 vr won't kill you as you react with spores or bringing over queens as you make more AA), make queeens to 'counter' void rays. Once you notice he isn't adding on phoenix (or realizing he will probably go with void ray + warpp gate aggression instead of voidray + phoneixes due to his 4 gate opening and not posturing to take a third), you make queens as additional AA instead of spores (no phoneixes, so make queens instead of spores) and make roaches and lings. I state in the guide you should always make roach/ling, even against stargate play, due to possibility of warp gate aggression (you can skimp/skipp on roach/ling once you rule out warp gate aggression, because he either made some phoenxies, went double stargate, or is going for his third). A 4 gate +1, and a stargae follow up are 2 separate things, and 2 different opportunities to get ahead, or fall behind, against. Deal with each stage accordingly. I also talk about how a common follow up to single stargate as the oppening, is 3 more gates. As long as you made an appropriate amount of queens to 'counter' void rays, and then made roaches when your 715 warren finishes (and lings as necessary), you should be fine. If you are sure to never be greedy unless you know exactly what toss is doing, you should always hold this aggression as you made queens for the void rays, spores if any phoenix came out (but there won't be any if he's going with hard wg aggression, meaning you should respond to a lack of phoenixes by making roach/ling to deal with the possibility of wg aggression), and roaches when warren pops, you should be fine. Think of it this way: when toss is denied scouting if you took a third or not, they HAVE to make a 2nd cannon (at least). If you aren't able to 100% deduce what toss is doing at 730 (or his follow up to initial opening decision, like single star or +1 4 gate, which should be revealed by 7 to 730 overlord sac and gas scout), you NEED to make roach ling when 715 warren pops (or whenevr you took it, based upon how many gas Toss took). | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I don't know if I can really give an answer more specific than that. If anyone else cares to answer more indepth, you are more than welcome to. This guide isn't my strategy or say what I prefer to do. This guide is just about standard zvp. I hope that everything in this guide is standard, and what everyone generally does (obviously, say, roach/hydra is a strat, even though I don't give specifics, I outline the way its played and its goals given that at its core, its an aggression based style of play; I also explicitly state when I am stating something I feel is less standard and more my own, strong opinion, like fast third vs gateway expand or 1414 vs gateway expand or 14 pool being better than 15 pool) | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I don't know. To me it just sounds like a really bad opening that you don't need to worry about because as long as you macro well in the first 3 minutes up to 20 supply, going 10gatecore instead of 12 or 13 sounds suboptimal and nothing to worry about. Again, maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about. I've never heard of 10 gate core as an opener instead of 12 or 13 gate. Or does it like try to get a super fast stalker? I don't really see a low level player making use of such an opening.. maybe a high level player could? I don't know... | ||
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barrykp
Ireland174 Posts
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