[G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvP! - Page 9

On March 12 2012 19:54 Belial88 wrote:


I specified it in the guide, but to put it all in one place:

14 pool
16-21 hatch, 4 lings
Queens as necessary
25-30 Third
2 x gas ~ when third is done
7:00 evo
7:30 roach warren, 3 x overlord sacs
8:00 60+ supply
Making overlords is just being super careful. Like 34/36 instead of 31-33. Even at the 46 supply you dont need to start 2 overlords at once. You go to like 50/54. Then after that you need to be very careful, because of injects, but start an overlord when the 1st one is nearing completion. At about 60 you are doing like 1 overlord and starting the next very soon afterwards.

On April 07 2012 23:10 Belial88 wrote:
^ I don't agree. If you go 14 pool, you can get your hatch in reasonable time by going 14 pool, 2 drone to prevent pylon ramp blocks/cannon rushes send out at ~16 supply, then take the nat (if toss doesn't put the pylon down, even if you go 11 pool, if they put pylon down it delays the hatch), then make 4 lings, you will be at 17/18, then make overlord. You can extractor trick to get queen, or do that in another order (queen then overlord then 2xlings with 17 overlord and extractor trick, or not.

On April 07 2012 23:10 Belial88 wrote:
I get your supply benchmarking, but that doesn't exactly tell you if a build is better or not exactly. You need to go by resources mined and drones created. I'm not sure it's possible to really do with fast third to 9 minute without a pro or a computer to figure it out, since people almost always screw up macro, having idle larva, et cetera.

On April 07 2012 23:10 Belial88 wrote:
The problem with earlier pool to earlier queen is that, yea spawn larva evens out drone production, but it doesn't even out expansions. By going 14 pool, you are purposefully banking money over constant larva usage, so you can plant that hatch down, while 11 pool, you will not bank money, and so need to idle larva or make some sort of cut.

On April 07 2012 23:10 Belial88 wrote:
I suppose with pylon blocks being so popular, it might be better to go earlier pool? I don't know. I know that I tried out 15 pool for a while, and it was just too late on the lings and the pylon fucked me over for too long that I felt that 14 pool was way better. Later pool is just soo much more econ, but that pylon block sure fucks things up. I guess if you could guarantee no pylon block, then later pool, and if they do block, you want earlier pool maybe? that might be interesting to try out, like 14pool/21 hatch vs 11 pool/15hatch.

On April 08 2012 01:45 mtszyk wrote:
If you're not doing 14 pool, 11 pool is quite silly. Do 12, at the earliest. If you do 11 Overpool, the earliest pool you can plant is 1:30. With a 12 pool, you get it at 1:39, and 12 pool is the earliest pool you can have without wasting a single larva. Since you're talking about larvae efficiency, I feel like that's more important.

That said, 12 pool is completely inferior to 14 pool because you still do not get the lings out in time to block the pylons, it's much simpler to just put a drone on hold position at your ramp. If he attacks the drone, bring an additional down. If he plants any pylons, bring a handful down, but since he can't block the ramp you can surround easily.

Then ignoring that, in the 'ideal' situation of building a hatch ASAP, a 12 pool gets one out at (earliest, never idling drones) 3:20. The 14 pool gets one out 2:40, DRASTICALLY sooner. That's half the build time for the hatch. Not only that, but they both have 15 drones at the start of building. 11 Pool just makes it worse.

So, park a drone at the bottom of your ramp if you're worried about pylon blocks imo.

On April 07 2012 23:36 Belial88 wrote:
^ Those kinds of details are preference. I'm really not someone you should be asking on this lol. Just watch a pro rep (seems like they go 1 queen, then queen at nat, then queen at nat to walk to third after third is started). As for creep tumors, it's debatable how important that is. Some people start the 3rd queen earlier (like right when third is started) so she can plant a tumor at nat or third depending on which is harder to defend (like daybreak, it's popular to creep out third first thing). Some say a 4th creep queen is very important to holding immortal/sentry and blink all-ins (something I've starting to incorporate more in my play recently, and liking a lot).

I just wrote what is kind of standard. I'm definitely not a good player. This is just sort of the basics.

Basic relative overlord timings, are like just a few food short, like 1-3 for up to about 44. Then one at 50/54, then make 1 and start next overlord soon after and another overlord very soon after that, as you will race from 50-80 supply very quickly due to 3 injects timing together and the income to push it through.

On April 08 2012 03:06 HyperionDreamer wrote:
Also, I was talking to a friend of mine who's top 20 GM (nxmhendralisk) and he was saying the best order to get your queens/hatcheries is: pool hatch queen queen hatch queen, where the first queen injects the main hatch, plants a tumor at the main, and then goes down to the natural, injects there, and then walks to the third. The second queen is built at the main hatchery and should pop in the main in time to inject there. The third queen is built at the nat, and it should finish in time to inject there.

I thought it was pretty strange in the sense that the first queen does this kind of exodus from the main to the nat to the third, but the first time I did it this way it felt really smooth, since you get pretty small inject gaps plus a creep tumor running.

On April 08 2012 03:11 mtszyk wrote:
So, why not simply build it at the third? I do it every time, and for the most part it doesn't hurt me. There have been a small number of games where my enemy capitalizes on it, or I make an error, or they are simply better than I am, but simply taking the third first seems to work great for me. When I do, I also delay a second queen and just take the natural sooner. Some maps make this slightly more difficult than others, but I've done it with success (and failure) on maps like Tal'Darim.

As far as economy goes, you can't possibly argue that 11 pool of any variation is superior to 14 pool. Your other point has merit, and I think it's a matter of style, but 14 pool is just more economy guaranteed.

I'm getting the same number of drones at 5'10 with both builds (plus or minus 1-2), but a third far sooner with 14 pool. The only assumption I really made is that you're not cutting drones to get the hatch out sooner. Additionally, the 11 pool has more larvae initially, but the 14 pool gets the second hatch out much sooner, so if you need to suddenly defend against something with a swell of zerglings it is superior, until around 5:10 (11 pool expansion finishes around here, again assuming you didn't cut drones) where it balances, then it becomes superior again ~30-40 seconds later when the third finishes.

On April 08 2012 03:11 mtszyk wrote:
So, why not simply build it at the third? I do it every time, and for the most part it doesn't hurt me. There have been a small number of games where my enemy capitalizes on it, or I make an error, or they are simply better than I am, but simply taking the third first seems to work great for me. When I do, I also delay a second queen and just take the natural sooner. Some maps make this slightly more difficult than others, but I've done it with success (and failure) on maps like Tal'Darim.

As far as economy goes, you can't possibly argue that 11 pool of any variation is superior to 14 pool. Your other point has merit, and I think it's a matter of style, but 14 pool is just more economy guaranteed.

I'm getting the same number of drones at 5'10 with both builds (plus or minus 1-2), but a third far sooner with 14 pool. The only assumption I really made is that you're not cutting drones to get the hatch out sooner. Additionally, the 11 pool has more larvae initially, but the 14 pool gets the second hatch out much sooner, so if you need to suddenly defend against something with a swell of zerglings it is superior, until around 5:10 (11 pool expansion finishes around here, again assuming you didn't cut drones) where it balances, then it becomes superior again ~30-40 seconds later when the third finishes.

Hm, you noticed i am talking of 11 pool-ovie which has a 1'22 pool timing compared to 1'36 of a regular 11 pool (idles larvae but super early lings let you skip the drone scout, so it evens out somewhat) ?

The early lings serve the following:
a) cheese defense in case
b) 2 early scouts to look for hidden pylons
c) take down the blocking pylon much quicker (you can get your nat at 3'30 even if it has been pylon blocked)
d) no need for drone patrol at ramp
e) after that you got 2 early scouts, i skip the scouting drone (have to make up for idling larvae before pool)

A regular 11 pool has similar advantages, however the lings are somewhat late.
If you get pylon blocked (standard on EU) and you patrol 2 drones at your ramp (+ a scouting drone), you will be way behind the 11 pool regarding minerals mined *and* expansion timing.

However a 5'20-5'30 3rd is sufficient imho.

Well, banking money is suboptimal as it basically tells you your build creates too few larvae ;-) anyway i get your point, however in case of a three hatch build you pretty much like to drone up quickly and as stated above you are still capable to get those 2 hatches up (slightly later: Nat 3'05, 3rd 5'30).

Well i switched from 14 pool to 11 because in reality (pylon block) this opening is just more reliable and save. Ofc i am an amateur laddering, so you won't see those safe openings in pro tourney play that often (except when pro's play underdogs and suspect cheese, Nestea frequently goes 11/12 pool against subpar players). On some maps (e.g. tal darim) you have a good chance to get the hatch before a blocking pylon can be placed, however i dislike gambling and I dislike being thrown off my build order early on .

Often times, I will wait for an ovie to fly over my pylon, then build gateways behind it.

What i am arguing is the fact, that a real world 14 pool is not able to take the theoretical advantage as you are losing mining time drone scouting, ramp blocking with drones and attacking a blocking pylon with drones.

On April 08 2012 03:06 HyperionDreamer wrote:

Yeah, I've noticed this same thing with regards to the 50 food break. You hit 3 injects really fast and you need 2-3 overlords fast to make all your larva into drones right away.

Also, I was talking to a friend of mine who's top 20 GM (nxmhendralisk) and he was saying the best order to get your queens/hatcheries is: pool hatch queen queen hatch queen, where the first queen injects the main hatch, plants a tumor at the main, and then goes down to the natural, injects there, and then walks to the third. The second queen is built at the main hatchery and should pop in the main in time to inject there. The third queen is built at the nat, and it should finish in time to inject there.

I thought it was pretty strange in the sense that the first queen does this kind of exodus from the main to the nat to the third, but the first time I did it this way it felt really smooth, since you get pretty small inject gaps plus a creep tumor running.