EPT[G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvP! - Page 7
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Advocado
Denmark994 Posts
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On March 15 2012 22:24 Advocado wrote: Is 6-7 gate easier to hold with burrow/tunneling claws or does that come too late? 6-7 gate hits just about when lair finishes, around 8:00-8:30, and tunneling claws take 1:50 to research. But it's not uncommon for the pressure to last for a while, sometimes even until burrow finishes. | ||
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On March 15 2012 23:21 FallDownMarigold wrote: So was Maynard pretty much the God of BW during his zenith? Seems like he mustve been fucking dominant if he was the one innovating seemingly simple shit such as transferring workers He was actually called "the god of starcraft" and he was probably the best american player on KALI for a while. Froz was arguably better in the b.net era though. | ||
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Ellachandra
Canada23 Posts
Thanks for taking the time to write all that down. I'm just a newb zergling but your information gives me something to focus on while I try to lift myself out of the bronze pit. I really liked your zvz tips too... really helped me to understand what was going on. If you had any suggestions on how to hold off a 4gate........  Cheers! | ||
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willverrecken
80 Posts
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Spaceboy
United Kingdom220 Posts
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Demonhunter04
1530 Posts
EDIT: I had 73 my third time. I suppose your supply counts factor in some lost units....about how much resources lost are you estimating? | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
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sgtjimmy
Canada107 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
@sgt: he meant 60 supply not 60 drones iirc | ||
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KingOctavious
United States324 Posts
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willverrecken
80 Posts
On March 16 2012 12:12 Spaceboy wrote: Assuming I don't drone scout, which a lot of the pros seem to decide against, what should I do if my lings get to my opponent's base (having been delayed dealing with a pylon block at the natural) and I find out they haven't FFE'd? By that time my third will already be pretty close to being finished and I'm not really sure whether I should cancel it or what. It seems pretty hard to keep it alive against any kind of pressure from protoss off one base without making a bunch of lings pretty quickly.. but maybe it's worth taking the hit to my drone count to keep it alive? you should scout him. it doesn't make a difference if it's pros or bronzes, if they don't scout they are effectively gambling. don't think everything pro gamers do is legit play that you should copy. | ||
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TheV
Brazil107 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Is 6-7 gate easier to hold with burrow/tunneling claws or does that come too late? Yea, it comes way too late, and a strong, 8:30 6 gate will basically autowin if you go standard lair timing, you just won't have enough. If you see no gas at the toss base, you want to start pumping units at about 8:00. If you do this, you should be able to have enough out by about 9:30, to push toss back, and tech to lair. You'll have mass speedroaches before he has anything like blink, robo, etc, and he'll just die. Hi Belial, Thanks for taking the time to write all that down. I'm just a newb zergling but your information gives me something to focus on while I try to lift myself out of the bronze pit. I really liked your zvz tips too... really helped me to understand what was going on. If you had any suggestions on how to hold off a 4gate........ Cheers! Glad you like it! This guide is probably more aimed towards Diamond players, with some additional information that I hope Masters can use. At bronze level, I would recommend you just play on 2 base lair, just see the Toss went FFE, and 100% drone up your 2 bases, get lair at 50, and not make any units until 60 supply, and then go mass speedroaches to secure third, taking the third earlier and earlier until you get a feel with what you can get away with. There are bigger issues for bronze, and I don't think bronze macro would allow you to take advantage of fast third more than it would hurt you. I mean you really have to be pushing 50+ drones by the 8:00 mark, or else it's just hurting more than helping. Otherwise you could just play 2 base and have lair instead. As for 4 gate, sac an overlord at 5:40 into toss base if toss hasn't expanded yet (remember you sent that original overlord you start with to a base, and if it's not toss base, you redirect it asap). But you should know it's 4 gate before then by no sentries, no 2nd gas taken by toss. You want to cut drones at about 30-35 supply. Personally, when I see gateway expands, I get ling speed asap, and then leave 1 drone in gas in case of pressure, so I can get a roach warren and roaches asap. On maps with chokes, you can rely more on 2-4 spines and lings. There's a lot more written on the subject by a lot better players though. Search on it. i think there's something wrong with your 8 min supply benchmarks cause i hit around 78 as an average and i get supply blocked like every game so it should be possible to have more than that easily. I struggle to hit past 70 supply. I know I'm pretty bad, but if you hit 78 as average and get supply blocked, you must be taking your gas super late or doing something greedy. Provide rep? I'm a Platinum Terran (that's my main race) and I guess Gold Zerg, and on my second attempt of doing the fast third build, I hit 66 supply at 8:00 even though I supply blocked myself....are Diamonds really that bad at build execution? EDIT: I had 73 my third time. I suppose your supply counts factor in some lost units....about how much resources lost are you estimating? Is that against computer? Playing against AI is a lot easier than playing against an opponent whom you have to sac overlords, move overlords against, check for probes, deal with zealot or stalker pressure, et cetera. It's kind of hard to get those overlord timings right when 2 overlords need to die right the same time you have 3 injects on 3 hatches going on. Great Guide, I switched to Z from Master Terran level, and I was always so confused at wtf the P is doing. Read the guide, then first game in the P was going 4 gas with empty base............ So I put my faith in the guide made blind spores and sure enough the Phxs and the void rays were quite sad....... MAUAHAHAHAH knowledge is power. ahahaha, great! Really cool feedback, people say they like my guides but I rarely hear someone say they actually applied it. Very cool! You did win right? For a long time when I played as a diamond zerg, I had these situations in ZvP where I was way ahead, like after holding double stargate, and lose because I didn't play the match-up right, as Toss just got 3 base and massed colossi. Oh the infestor era.... I'm sure if they re-buffed the infestor, no one would use it because we've found better ways to play now. Why would you want more then 60 drones at the 8 minute mark? That's 16 per base on minerals with 4 fully saturated gas, that's more then enough in my opinion. 16 drones per 4 bases mining minerals, with gas taken at every base, would mean you would stockpile a shitton of gas, even if you were going pure mutas. You need wayyyy more drones as zerg. And certain timings, like blink stalker or immortal/sentry, will KILL you if you only have 60 drones (and you only need 3-4 gas too). Toss R Strong. But I say 60 supply, not drones. I say it multiple times - supply, supply, supply. What's with everyone thinking I'm saying drones? Some high masters challenged me about that and played me, and I told him in game, it's supply, supply, supply, not drone count. At 8:00 you will have maybe 50 actually mining drones. The other 20 supply is lings, queens, and about 15 is held up in morphing eggs. And it's entirely posssible that zealot pressure or stalker pressure comes, in which case you need to make 10 supply worth of lings. That's not worth to do at all. KingOctavius and TheV, thanks! I'm glad it's useful, please let me know when you actually apply the information ^^ Assuming I don't drone scout, which a lot of the pros seem to decide against, what should I do if my lings get to my opponent's base (having been delayed dealing with a pylon block at the natural) and I find out they haven't FFE'd? By that time my third will already be pretty close to being finished and I'm not really sure whether I should cancel it or what. It seems pretty hard to keep it alive against any kind of pressure from protoss off one base without making a bunch of lings pretty quickly.. but maybe it's worth taking the hit to my drone count to keep it alive? If you are having trouble because you don't drone scout, maybe you should start drone scouting? Plenty of pros do drone scout in ZvP. I don't think I've heard anyone explicitly say it was wrong to drone scout either. Some people are just greedy. You don't have to be greedy yet, you aren't at that level of play. I mean, daybreak, ZvP? Is Toss really going to gateway expand on that map? Zerg just takes fast third and drones to 70 supply even if you go 3 gate on that map! Your lings should arrive at the Toss base before you should be planting the third down anyways, too. You should be plating around 25-35 supply, not 20. And 4 gate will obviously autowin if you went fast third blindly. Sounds like you are making a lot of trouble for yourself when tyou could just drone scout. When I see gateway play (and I drone scout), personally, I react by getting ling speed asap, try to get the hatch down asap (possibly even hatch first), then I remove all but 1 from gas after speed. When I see Toss expand, my plan is to take a third - so I throw down a third ~35-40 supply, and roach warren ~35-45 supply (depending on map size). Then, I mass a shitton of roaches at about 45-55 supply, depending on map size, then go back to adding drones, adding units as necessary as to Toss pushing out. I grab 2nd gas, get lair, and try to be as greedy as possible while making as many roaches as possible (since sentries will be the main problem). Then I get mutas as soon as toss backs off. You could also just drone the fuck up on 2 bases, get lair, then take third, with roach speed starting. If toss pushes out, you'll have roach speed when he gets to third. Darkforce, a pro zerg much higher level than me, among many others, have said this is what they do. Maybe I play scrubs and is why I can get away with fast third, but I like to be greedy. | ||
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Bl33s
United States10 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Blakish
Czech Republic2 Posts
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Spaceboy
United Kingdom220 Posts
On March 17 2012 00:24 Belial88 wrote: If you are having trouble because you don't drone scout, maybe you should start drone scouting? Plenty of pros do drone scout in ZvP. I don't think I've heard anyone explicitly say it was wrong to drone scout either. Some people are just greedy. You don't have to be greedy yet, you aren't at that level of play. I mean, daybreak, ZvP? Is Toss really going to gateway expand on that map? Zerg just takes fast third and drones to 70 supply even if you go 3 gate on that map! Your lings should arrive at the Toss base before you should be planting the third down anyways, too. You should be plating around 25-35 supply, not 20. And 4 gate will obviously autowin if you went fast third blindly. Sounds like you are making a lot of trouble for yourself when tyou could just drone scout. When I see gateway play (and I drone scout), personally, I react by getting ling speed asap, try to get the hatch down asap (possibly even hatch first), then I remove all but 1 from gas after speed. When I see Toss expand, my plan is to take a third - so I throw down a third ~35-40 supply, and roach warren ~35-45 supply (depending on map size). Then, I mass a shitton of roaches at about 45-55 supply, depending on map size, then go back to adding drones, adding units as necessary as to Toss pushing out. I grab 2nd gas, get lair, and try to be as greedy as possible while making as many roaches as possible (since sentries will be the main problem). Then I get mutas as soon as toss backs off. You could also just drone the fuck up on 2 bases, get lair, then take third, with roach speed starting. If toss pushes out, you'll have roach speed when he gets to third. Darkforce, a pro zerg much higher level than me, among many others, have said this is what they do. Maybe I play scrubs and is why I can get away with fast third, but I like to be greedy. Thanks very much for the reply. I have actually started drone scouting after this happened to me (as I figure in general I'm too low level for any slight economic compromise to prove significant so I should just play safer), I was just wondering as I've seen players such as Stephano and Idra not drone scout (though this could be map dependent I guess) and it just struck me that there must be some way of progressing from there that isn't totally crippling or you'd think people would just blindly 4 gate them and get free wins. That said I'm pretty terrible so as you say I may have just screwed up the build (I think what may have happened is that I took the third first due to the pylon block, which I know you advise against anyway) and maybe I was just in a situation they'd never get into. On another note I have definitely seen Ret use an 11 overpool opening and though I have been dissuaded from doing this by your arguments my guess is that there must be some reasonable rationale for this as I have enough respect for Ret that I don't think he'd be doing something that's objectively terrible.. especially when it comes to getting an edge economically That said, great guide! (especially the scouting section which is really amazing.. everyone always mentions the need for decent scouting but it's so rare for someone to put down a concrete list of what you need to look for to actually peg someone on a build). Keep up the good work  | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
11 pool is defintely viable, but not for macro games, and its a coinflip. Pros do coinfli builds too. But they only do it once in a while, rarely, and against an oponent they have studied and prepared against. You won't see ret do it consistently on the ladder against random opponents. And you sure it was 11 overpool and not 10 pooll? He also could just be trying it out. Your welcome though! | ||
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