EPT[G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvP! - Page 8
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Spaceboy
United Kingdom220 Posts
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Infocus
Canada31 Posts
In reference to your comments to the Evo chamber. Evo chamber should be grabbed at 7:00 at earliest if you see gas at the Toss natural, and still aren't exactly sure what Toss is up to. Any earlier than 7:00 is too early. Also note, that if you see no gas at the Toss natural, indicating a 6 gate +1 super early all-in, you should not get an upgrade. Upgrades take a long time to complete - 160 seconds! Add 35 for evo build time, that's 185 seconds, or 3 minutes 5 seconds, for an upgrade to complete from when you throw down the evo. Since no gas gateway all-ins can hit from 8:00-9:00, that upgrade would be worthless if it won't be done until 10:05 at earliest, and may even contribute to your loss (if not actually cost you the game). So if you go for upgrades, be sure that Toss isn't doing such super fast gateway timing before 10:05. Roach warren should be taken at 7:30. You can take it earlier if you see no gas at the Toss natural, or scout early warp gate pressure, and make it at 7:00 instead. If Toss makes any sort of early zealot aggression, like double gate, you are better off using lings - don't make a roach warren earlier just to deal with such pressure. However, if you see lots of gas at Toss natural, or a stargate opener, you can take your roach warren later. Do you have any comments on preference of upgrades? I know Stephano likes to get +1 melee for lategame purposes while I personally like getting +1 range for midgame control. Do you change your upgrade based on certain gas timings taking guesses as to how you feel the lategame will play out based on the midgame? Is double evo at 7:30 mark just suicide most of the time? I have personally been trying Lair into double evo when I see 2 gas being taken and mined with macro hatch. Is the second evo to greedy that early? It is difficult for me to tell since my macro mechanics are pretty shit and it is hard for me to see what build to "aim" for. Thanks. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Set 14, Lucky vs Brown. Brown does an 8 gate timing. He had zero gas taken, so right there lucky should have been suspicious of a gateway all-in (like I've said, zero gas 99% means mass gate all-in at 8:30, 1% stupidly fast third behind zero units, which isn't really viable, except maybe on a map like entombed). Brown pushed out at 8:00 with minimal units, and had his first warp-in at 8:30, and was shooting shit down at 8:50. It was at 8:50 basically that Lucky lost, when too many stalkers were shooting at too few stalkers. Also to note, Lucky was at 63 of 70, and had started lair. It is strange, but Lucky made an evo chamber, when he saw no gas (which is okay, but he could have cut it). He made his roach warren at 7:00 instead of 7:30+. Some people here have said certain 4 gate pressure can kill you if you make a roach warren as late as 7:30 instead of 7:00 (personally, I've had no trouble holding 2 gate before core, +1 zealot, and 4 gate pressure using just zerglings, but that's just me). Regardless, I don't think it was bad to make a 7:00 roach warren upon seeing no gas. One thing that's interesting - at 8:00, lucky only had 47 drones. He made half lings, half drones after the 7:00 mark. I'm really not sure why he made so many lings, but he definitely had a very low drone count. I think applying what I wrote about in the guide, you can apply what happened in this game and use it to better your own play. Lucky could have cut that evo out, he basically autolost for making lair against no-gass Toss, and he should've droned purely up to 8:00 instead of making half lings/half drone (besides making a few reactionary lings to deal with stalker/zealot pressure). But it's also clear that Lucky definitely doesn't have the same level of macro as players like DRG and Nestea and Idra. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Do you have any comments on preference of upgrades? I know Stephano likes to get +1 melee for lategame purposes while I personally like getting +1 range for midgame control. Do you change your upgrade based on certain gas timings taking guesses as to how you feel the lategame will play out based on the midgame? Is double evo at 7:30 mark just suicide most of the time? I have personally been trying Lair into double evo when I see 2 gas being taken and mined with macro hatch. Is the second evo to greedy that early? It is difficult for me to tell since my macro mechanics are pretty shit and it is hard for me to see what build to "aim" for. Thanks. Well, I don't know if I'm qualified on this. This is a very basic guide, on something that most masters+ already know about, so it's not like I'm saying anything new there. This isn't like a guide on "How to play mutas in ZvP' or "my 12 minute timing attack ZvT" or "Ultras in ZvZ". it's just everything put together that some have done, but no one has done in a way that wasn't complete shit cough skoozy cough. That said, I have done a lot of testing on upgrades. So here's my thoughts (you can check my Upgrades on Mutalisks thread, as well as multiple comments I've made about it, I think I've made a few other upgrade threads as well). First off, if I see zero gas at the Toss natural, I don't make any upgrades. If toss is doing a 6/7/8 gate all-in, the upgrade won't help at all (as I stated in the Roach Warren and Evo Chamber section of the OP). Evo is 35 seconds, upgrade is 160, that's 185 seconds, or 3 minutes 5 seconds. 7:00 + 185 seconds, that means the upgrades kicks in at 10:05. So when you start an upgrade, you need to ask yourself "Will the upgrade finish in time?". Against a 7 gate all-in that will be inside your base at 8:50, no - you will have GGd out by 9:00. Against blink stalker all-in, it's questionable. You won't have it at first, but with a spine, you can maybe buy that 30 seconds, and then have it. Against sentry/immortal? Yea, you should definitely get it, since lings are kind of useless in that situation, but hydras are king. If Toss opens stargate, getting upgrades can always be useful, as you can get on that ground upgrade ahead of Toss. But, you know, it's up to you. I'm actually a big advocate of NOT getting upgrades in most match-ups, and preferring to mass units or tech up to infestors or hive much quicker. You also have to wonder about critical hit numbers. So, for example, +1 carapace. I largely think carapace is useless in most cases, especially in ZvP, when Toss is always racing attack upgrades. I will often go 0 carapace in ZvP, as it doesnt often change critical hit numbers (+3 zealots will always rape lings). But for that first upgrade? If Toss is putting on gateway pressure, I'll get ranged attack. Roaches benefit a lot from attack, actually, against zealots and stalkers. If not, I'll try to go for melee, for the long game plan (broodlords gain most damage from broodlings, not air attack, and lings can appreciate them too, for ling/muta). Of course, carapace can be useful if you aren't sure which way to go, since both roaches and lings can appreciate it. Personally,I go for either melee or ranged, depending on how much pressure toss is going to put, and only if I see toss have gas. Sometimes I go double evo though, if I know I'm not going to go mutas (like if toss goes immortal/sentry or blink stalker at start). I know I just said upgrades aren't that great, but if I dont go mutas, I tend to max out on just roach/ling, so I have to put the gas somewhere, and I don't tech up to infestor bane rain roach until I hit 200/200 first. However I DEFINITELY don't go double evo at 7:30. I get the 2nd evo wayyyyy later. I understand what you are talking about, you see toss teching heavily, but toss getting double gas at nat could also be immortal/sentry or blink stalker pressure, both of which where you just want as much shit as possible, hydras, and units - not upgrades necessarily. I'd recommend you stop going double evo so quickly. If you like double evo, just grab them later, when you are safe. Don't open it, definitely not. Toss will always be ahead in weapons upgrade, so I don't think it's a big deal to get carapace in ZvP. Don't be at 0 armour when Toss is at 3 bases, of course, but it's definitely not a priority. That's just my thoughts on the matter. When you get down to it, as long as toss has gas at natural, you are okay to get one of the three upgrades. Which one, is up to you - ranged if you plan to stay on roaches, melee if you plan to go towards mutas, carapace if you aren't sure which way you are going. I'd prefer going toward either melee or ranged, since carapace is more expensive and I feel is less useful. Zerg isn't toss where you make strong units, you strength is making lots and lots of units, not upgrades or tech necessarily. | ||
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Infocus
Canada31 Posts
On March 17 2012 06:56 Belial88 wrote: Well, I don't know if I'm qualified on this. This is a very basic guide, on something that most masters+ already know about, so it's not like I'm saying anything new there. This isn't like a guide on "How to play mutas in ZvP' or "my 12 minute timing attack ZvT" or "Ultras in ZvZ". it's just everything put together that some have done, but no one has done in a way that wasn't complete shit cough skoozy cough. That said, I have done a lot of testing on upgrades. So here's my thoughts (you can check my Upgrades on Mutalisks thread, as well as multiple comments I've made about it, I think I've made a few other upgrade threads as well). First off, if I see zero gas at the Toss natural, I don't make any upgrades. If toss is doing a 6/7/8 gate all-in, the upgrade won't help at all (as I stated in the Roach Warren and Evo Chamber section of the OP). Evo is 35 seconds, upgrade is 160, that's 185 seconds, or 3 minutes 5 seconds. 7:00 + 185 seconds, that means the upgrades kicks in at 10:05. So when you start an upgrade, you need to ask yourself "Will the upgrade finish in time?". Against a 7 gate all-in that will be inside your base at 8:50, no - you will have GGd out by 9:00. Against blink stalker all-in, it's questionable. You won't have it at first, but with a spine, you can maybe buy that 30 seconds, and then have it. Against sentry/immortal? Yea, you should definitely get it, since lings are kind of useless in that situation, but hydras are king. If Toss opens stargate, getting upgrades can always be useful, as you can get on that ground upgrade ahead of Toss. But, you know, it's up to you. I'm actually a big advocate of NOT getting upgrades in most match-ups, and preferring to mass units or tech up to infestors or hive much quicker. You also have to wonder about critical hit numbers. So, for example, +1 carapace. I largely think carapace is useless in most cases, especially in ZvP, when Toss is always racing attack upgrades. I will often go 0 carapace in ZvP, as it doesnt often change critical hit numbers (+3 zealots will always rape lings). But for that first upgrade? If Toss is putting on gateway pressure, I'll get ranged attack. Roaches benefit a lot from attack, actually, against zealots and stalkers. If not, I'll try to go for melee, for the long game plan (broodlords gain most damage from broodlings, not air attack, and lings can appreciate them too, for ling/muta). Of course, carapace can be useful if you aren't sure which way to go, since both roaches and lings can appreciate it. Personally,I go for either melee or ranged, depending on how much pressure toss is going to put, and only if I see toss have gas. Sometimes I go double evo though, if I know I'm not going to go mutas (like if toss goes immortal/sentry or blink stalker at start). I know I just said upgrades aren't that great, but if I dont go mutas, I tend to max out on just roach/ling, so I have to put the gas somewhere, and I don't tech up to infestor bane rain roach until I hit 200/200 first. However I DEFINITELY don't go double evo at 7:30. I get the 2nd evo wayyyyy later. I understand what you are talking about, you see toss teching heavily, but toss getting double gas at nat could also be immortal/sentry or blink stalker pressure, both of which where you just want as much shit as possible, hydras, and units - not upgrades necessarily. I'd recommend you stop going double evo so quickly. If you like double evo, just grab them later, when you are safe. Don't open it, definitely not. Toss will always be ahead in weapons upgrade, so I don't think it's a big deal to get carapace in ZvP. Don't be at 0 armour when Toss is at 3 bases, of course, but it's definitely not a priority. That's just my thoughts on the matter. When you get down to it, as long as toss has gas at natural, you are okay to get one of the three upgrades. Which one, is up to you - ranged if you plan to stay on roaches, melee if you plan to go towards mutas, carapace if you aren't sure which way you are going. I'd prefer going toward either melee or ranged, since carapace is more expensive and I feel is less useful. Zerg isn't toss where you make strong units, you strength is making lots and lots of units, not upgrades or tech necessarily. Thanks for the informative reply. Im glad that you have consolidated so much information that "everyone" knew. I have felt the same way towards +1 carapace ever since chronoboost was introduced in Sc2. I tried builds where I go for early +1 carapace with early macro hatch and go very quick infestor ling with drops delaying my third. It's similar to a style Sheth uses some times. This is ok on some maps where it would take a ton of forcefields to zone lings but on maps where you can't do it so well. forcefield and +2 zealots just rip it apart. Lings just don't seem to be that good ZvP except for baneling drops eventually | ||
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barrykp
Ireland174 Posts
It's a hell of a lot easier to hold a blink stalker all-in with 65 drones instead of 55 drones, if you work on your macro. Chances are, if you have games where you go "wtf Toss just masses a huge fucking ball of stalkers/units/etc and wins", check your supply at 8:00. If you aren't past 60 supply, you've pretty much already lost the game, really. If it's in the 50's, I don't think it's possible for you to win unless the opponent is just as bad. This confuses me, since in the only replay you linked in the OP the zerg is at 53 supply at 8:00. | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6-ZgT0MWlXs#t=171s If you can find a replay/vod with better 8 minute macro, please post it. Speed and lair is 50% done and creep has almost connected nat and 3rd. Other note: Pretty solid defense against a 2 stargate all-in. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
70+ in a real game is really damn impressive. ~65-70 is pretty standard (everyone seems to get supply blocked at 70/70). Below 60 is 'bad'. This confuses me, since in the only replay you linked in the OP the zerg is at 53 supply at 8:00. yea I stated I was pretty bad in the OP. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
User was warned for this post (not reading) | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
On March 20 2012 08:25 VoirDire wrote: Speaking of zvp macro benchmarking. Here is a VOD with stephano at 62 supply at 7:15 and 86 supply at 8:00: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6-ZgT0MWlXs#t=139s http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6-ZgT0MWlXs#t=171s If you can find a replay/vod with better 8 minute macro, please post it. Speed and lair is 50% done and creep has almost connected nat and 3rd. Other note: Pretty solid defense against a 2 stargate all-in. Meh 12 of that supply was in roaches because he took his warren at 6:45, but obviously it's still very impressive. | ||
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
Best iv managed after trying a few times is 79 supply with 4 lings 3 queens and no roaches. Get the same with a later triple gas build as the standard earlier double gas build. http://drop.sc/139548/d http://drop.sc/139547/d If anyone has any ideas how to improve further please suggest, im only diamond. But my SQ these games was like 118 or so, so i doubt theres too much room for improvement. | ||
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warblob004
United States198 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Either way, I dont think its a big difference. | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On March 22 2012 03:36 Iksf wrote: Yea I agree I think the roaches really inflate the food count if you make them at that point, you get lower with pure drones. Best iv managed after trying a few times is 79 supply with 4 lings 3 queens and no roaches. Get the same with a later triple gas build as the standard earlier double gas build. http://drop.sc/139548/d http://drop.sc/139547/d If anyone has any ideas how to improve further please suggest, im only diamond. But my SQ these games was like 118 or so, so i doubt theres too much room for improvement. Really well done! But there is still room for improvement, you missed a some injects. Also, I think you need to add some scouting lings and creep spread between nat and third for it to be safe in a real game scenario. | ||
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BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
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warblob004
United States198 Posts
On March 22 2012 07:25 Belial88 wrote: 14 pool is standard, but that doesnt make it right or better. I would think 15 pool is way better, but I havent tested it. I mean, 14 hatch is supposed to be better than 15 hatch, but the same pros who still extractor trick every game also 15 hatch evety time. Either way, I dont think its a big difference. Sweet, sounds good to me! | ||
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agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Great guide. Any comments on the location of the 3rd base? For example is it safe enough to take the gold as a third on Metalopolis? How about Tal Darim where the third is blocked by rocks? Do you need to produce more units to take them down? Sorry for newbie questions. In ZvP you always want to take it farther away from Toss. I really don't like playing on map where you need to break rocks to take your third, like TDA. It just means you kill your econ trying to get that third, making any possibility of you holding a strong timing impossible - even if you survive, Toss will have built up his probes or whatever while forcing you to be way lower on drones/tech than normal, and being able to normalize much easier, because on most maps you would have more drones, and thus be able to tech more, and then counterattack with mass roaches because you will be so far ahead in econ and eventually tech. And on TDA specifically, toss can take a super easy third, so really, he can just all-in, if it fails, take his third, and it's okay, because he won't be punished for all-inning on that map. If you take a faraway third on TDA, you will straight up lose to a blink stalker or imortal/sentry all-in. Your rallying roaches, or hydras, will just be way too slow, and you will die. Your army will be cut in half basically, because your third is so far away and his push will occur at your natural, between the 3 hatches, or just at the third and your main/nat hatch production will just take forever to rally there. You can't go fast third on TDA, is what I'm saying basically. You can't go fast third on maps where the third has rocks or is super far away. As for Metalopolis - I actually think this map is completely broken, in favor of zerg, for ZvP. This is the one map I think is truly broken for ZvP in favor of Zerg, against Toss. Not only can you take a third on Metal, you SHOULD! It's close enough to your main/nat that rallying units is not a problem, and even if it was, it doesn't matter, because the income boost is HUGE. Whereas on Shattered, the gold has rocks that take forever and a lot to break down, on Metal, you can take it. Toss cannot do ANY gateway pressure before the 8:00 mark, so yea, you are 100% safe to take gold first on metal against toss FFE. The standard zealot/stalker can be pressure of course, but you can easily make a spine or some lings for that on Metal (or any map) for that matter. There is absolutely no reason not to take the gold as your FIRST base on metal, against FFE ZvP. It's so completely broken, and nothing Toss can do to punish it. At least antiga has bullshit close spawn to make up for gold. So yea. Veto Shattered and TDA for being bullshit maps that FORCE you to only play 2 base against Toss, which limits your options. So toss can just blind counter your build. The problem with this, is that fast third is the standard response to FFE, so when you can't even play standard, the map is broken, because you are forced to do builds that require aggression or you fall behind, ie you have to be all-innish. Now TDA is REALLY good for mutas, so 2 base muta is still okay on that map, even if they blind counter it, due to how good mutas are on that map, but I still don't like being forced into a single build on that map, that ISNT the standard build. | ||
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Chrono000
Korea (South)358 Posts
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IniX
Netherlands36 Posts
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