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On March 14 2012 06:55 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 03:42 Arisen wrote:On March 13 2012 21:03 Belial88 wrote:I never said 70 drones, I said 70 supply. Also, 70 supply at 8:00 minute means you have like somewhere in the upper 50's of drones actually mining, and the rest of the supply taken up by morphing drones, as well as queens and random lings. The game I was talking about was Idra vs Oz on Dual Sight, but if you watch any of the DRG vs Genius finals he hit 70+ in all but one game (i think the one he didn't was daybreak).
Pretty solid. I would offer that you should in fact get an upgrade if he's going for a WG pressure build to insure you have a followup.
If you want to, sure, of course. I would even recommend it. I was just saying DONT get it if toss is doing a hardcore gateway all-in. Otherwise, do whatever you think is necessary. Most people just go all-in with 6 gate, but there are protoss (especially on the NA server) who 6 gate while taking a double gas behind it to put together a pretty strong timing on the third with a lot of sentry energy and then transitions (usually to 3rd and blink with a slower colossus). If someone is doing a sub-optimal bad play, and you react as if they were playing optimally, you will only end up ahead. That's like saying making roach/ling against a 4 gate is bad because Toss could theoretically just be going 4 gate expand. No. Toss goes 6 gate, you see no gas, so he won't ahve lots of sentries. Geysers take a while to warp in, and build up gas. So you get 1 gas, that's 30 seconds, then about another minute to basically get 1 sentry out. So it's like 2 minutes to get 2 sentries from 1 gas. So getting 2 gas late, as in past the 8:00 mark, means Toss won't have sentries for a long fucking time. He would've done better going 3 gas normal 5 gate sentry expand to third or something. So. You see 6 gate no gas. You make a ton of roach/ling. Toss can't possibly take his third, because he won't have enough sentries, and you will have a shitton of units. You will just fucking deny his third forever. He will have to wait forever. In the meantime, you are teching hard and fast to speed roaches, burrow, hydras, mutas, whatever, while taking a fourth base. And really, by taht point in the game, you've won. You can't really do any 'timing' with 6 gate besides when warp gate first finishes. If a 6 gate timing isn't going to work (assuming proper reaction from zerg) at the standard 8:30 mark, how is it possibly going to work at the 10:00 mark? Makes no sense. By then you'll have a tonof hydras. I don't really understand what you are saying. If toss is doing a sub-optimal build, you just end up ahead by responding as if he was playing optimally. If Toss is doing a no gas 6 gate that's really bad and late, you don't need an upgrade. So what you do is see no gas, so you know what's up, you don't get the upgrade. You mass roach/ling, make no lair. Then, you are at about 90-110 supply. You realize, hey, my army way fucking bigger now, I'd stomp him if he moves out, because my econ has kicked in, and he has no tech that can take advantage of my hatch tech. So then you tech up, and get upgrades, lair, speed, et cetera. For the same reason, you can't just 4 gate expand. You just die. Like you can't do it. For the same reasons, you can't just 6 gate no gas FFE and just play out. I don't know why you're harping that it's a supoptimal build; it's a build NonY brought up on SotG after IEM Gaungzhao and has used several times on ladder to great success. The has the regular timing with his orignal sentries where he has a lot of energy and he uses it for one timine where protoss has a lot of FF's and tries to snipe the third. Instead of doing the hardcore just warping in stalkers/zealots to try to kill the guy, he continues probing and takes the double gas as he leaves and doesn't over commit into the third. I know you like to argue, but perhaps you can admit that a low masters zerg doesn't know the game as well as NonY, so you might take his word for it? I mostly do it off 3gate now and it is very strong against zergs who have taken a 3rd going roach/ling. 6gate is still good against some zerg builds but it's pretty terrible against others and you've got no control over what they're doing, nor scouting to cut your losses and change builds at an early enough time. Another important point is that I play from 2gate or 3gate expand, not FFE. I don't think FFE can pressure a 3rd very safely.
Why 2 or 3gate expand?
At a time when almost all zergs are gonig gasless, why wouldn't 1gate expo be a better option?
Is it because that early of an expansion lets zerg know that there are no additional gateways and they can still safely fast third?
I mean with 1gate expo speedling pressure seems like the primary drawback, so I'm just curious what the reason for 2-3gate expo is.
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Italy12246 Posts
On March 14 2012 07:01 KhAmun wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 06:55 Liquid`NonY wrote:On March 14 2012 03:42 Arisen wrote:On March 13 2012 21:03 Belial88 wrote:I never said 70 drones, I said 70 supply. Also, 70 supply at 8:00 minute means you have like somewhere in the upper 50's of drones actually mining, and the rest of the supply taken up by morphing drones, as well as queens and random lings. The game I was talking about was Idra vs Oz on Dual Sight, but if you watch any of the DRG vs Genius finals he hit 70+ in all but one game (i think the one he didn't was daybreak).
Pretty solid. I would offer that you should in fact get an upgrade if he's going for a WG pressure build to insure you have a followup.
If you want to, sure, of course. I would even recommend it. I was just saying DONT get it if toss is doing a hardcore gateway all-in. Otherwise, do whatever you think is necessary. Most people just go all-in with 6 gate, but there are protoss (especially on the NA server) who 6 gate while taking a double gas behind it to put together a pretty strong timing on the third with a lot of sentry energy and then transitions (usually to 3rd and blink with a slower colossus). If someone is doing a sub-optimal bad play, and you react as if they were playing optimally, you will only end up ahead. That's like saying making roach/ling against a 4 gate is bad because Toss could theoretically just be going 4 gate expand. No. Toss goes 6 gate, you see no gas, so he won't ahve lots of sentries. Geysers take a while to warp in, and build up gas. So you get 1 gas, that's 30 seconds, then about another minute to basically get 1 sentry out. So it's like 2 minutes to get 2 sentries from 1 gas. So getting 2 gas late, as in past the 8:00 mark, means Toss won't have sentries for a long fucking time. He would've done better going 3 gas normal 5 gate sentry expand to third or something. So. You see 6 gate no gas. You make a ton of roach/ling. Toss can't possibly take his third, because he won't have enough sentries, and you will have a shitton of units. You will just fucking deny his third forever. He will have to wait forever. In the meantime, you are teching hard and fast to speed roaches, burrow, hydras, mutas, whatever, while taking a fourth base. And really, by taht point in the game, you've won. You can't really do any 'timing' with 6 gate besides when warp gate first finishes. If a 6 gate timing isn't going to work (assuming proper reaction from zerg) at the standard 8:30 mark, how is it possibly going to work at the 10:00 mark? Makes no sense. By then you'll have a tonof hydras. I don't really understand what you are saying. If toss is doing a sub-optimal build, you just end up ahead by responding as if he was playing optimally. If Toss is doing a no gas 6 gate that's really bad and late, you don't need an upgrade. So what you do is see no gas, so you know what's up, you don't get the upgrade. You mass roach/ling, make no lair. Then, you are at about 90-110 supply. You realize, hey, my army way fucking bigger now, I'd stomp him if he moves out, because my econ has kicked in, and he has no tech that can take advantage of my hatch tech. So then you tech up, and get upgrades, lair, speed, et cetera. For the same reason, you can't just 4 gate expand. You just die. Like you can't do it. For the same reasons, you can't just 6 gate no gas FFE and just play out. I don't know why you're harping that it's a supoptimal build; it's a build NonY brought up on SotG after IEM Gaungzhao and has used several times on ladder to great success. The has the regular timing with his orignal sentries where he has a lot of energy and he uses it for one timine where protoss has a lot of FF's and tries to snipe the third. Instead of doing the hardcore just warping in stalkers/zealots to try to kill the guy, he continues probing and takes the double gas as he leaves and doesn't over commit into the third. I know you like to argue, but perhaps you can admit that a low masters zerg doesn't know the game as well as NonY, so you might take his word for it? I mostly do it off 3gate now and it is very strong against zergs who have taken a 3rd going roach/ling. 6gate is still good against some zerg builds but it's pretty terrible against others and you've got no control over what they're doing, nor scouting to cut your losses and change builds at an early enough time. Another important point is that I play from 2gate or 3gate expand, not FFE. I don't think FFE can pressure a 3rd very safely. Why 2 or 3gate expand? At a time when almost all zergs are gonig gasless, why wouldn't 1gate expo be a better option? Is it because that early of an expansion lets zerg know that there are no additional gateways and they can still safely fast third? I mean with 1gate expo speedling pressure seems like the primary drawback, so I'm just curious what the reason for 2-3gate expo is.
From personal experience, a lot of 1gate expands make a few less sentries (and often dont take the second gas altogether), which in turn makes your pressure a tiny bit weaker. Also 2gate expand will never ever be broken by any amount of speeldlings (which can come off a delayed gas too), while 1gate has a small timing where it can be hurt (6minutes ish).
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On March 13 2012 23:07 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Excellent guide with tons of useful timings, scouting information and macro benchmarks.
Kudos for putting it together, very thorough Glad you like it, but aren't you at a level where you already know all of this? I'm assuming all of the diamond+ knew all of this. Maybe the benchmarking section might have been useful? I don't know. Let me know what you learned when you post guys. And I can't be all-knowing, surely there is stuff out there that I could add that I am not aware of.
Great guide for high diamond players like myself. Mainly the specifics about what to look for when scouting, and proper responses, as some of the all-ins require a special response beyond "have more stuff" . Definitely interesting to hear that hydras are probably needed vs blink stalker all-in, I am still tryin to hold with macro hatch, roach/ling, and flanking with small groups of lings. It hasn't gone well.
Benchmarks are nice because they provide a clear, verifiable data point as a goal to work toward. This is invaluable when trying to train your macro. Useful, yes, but mostly as a threshold to measure whether you should keep reading the guide or go practice macro first.
I'm also enjoying how much debate there is over evo and roach warren timings. i do it on feel: if I'm suspicious of air/dt tech, put down evo; if I suspect heavy pressure or an attack, I put down roach warren. 30 second difference in placement time really isn't what is under discussion, but everyone keeps trying to give specific times, in spite of the fact that most of the time, you just want them as late as you can get away with.
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I'm confused as to how you are getting 3 overlords to the toss base by 8 minutes. Are you sending your 1st created overlord over?
I've always kept that over my natural to prevent some pylon nonsense.
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Yes the first overlord is sent to the opponent's base.
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On March 14 2012 06:55 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 03:42 Arisen wrote:On March 13 2012 21:03 Belial88 wrote:I never said 70 drones, I said 70 supply. Also, 70 supply at 8:00 minute means you have like somewhere in the upper 50's of drones actually mining, and the rest of the supply taken up by morphing drones, as well as queens and random lings. The game I was talking about was Idra vs Oz on Dual Sight, but if you watch any of the DRG vs Genius finals he hit 70+ in all but one game (i think the one he didn't was daybreak).
Pretty solid. I would offer that you should in fact get an upgrade if he's going for a WG pressure build to insure you have a followup.
If you want to, sure, of course. I would even recommend it. I was just saying DONT get it if toss is doing a hardcore gateway all-in. Otherwise, do whatever you think is necessary. Most people just go all-in with 6 gate, but there are protoss (especially on the NA server) who 6 gate while taking a double gas behind it to put together a pretty strong timing on the third with a lot of sentry energy and then transitions (usually to 3rd and blink with a slower colossus). If someone is doing a sub-optimal bad play, and you react as if they were playing optimally, you will only end up ahead. That's like saying making roach/ling against a 4 gate is bad because Toss could theoretically just be going 4 gate expand. No. Toss goes 6 gate, you see no gas, so he won't ahve lots of sentries. Geysers take a while to warp in, and build up gas. So you get 1 gas, that's 30 seconds, then about another minute to basically get 1 sentry out. So it's like 2 minutes to get 2 sentries from 1 gas. So getting 2 gas late, as in past the 8:00 mark, means Toss won't have sentries for a long fucking time. He would've done better going 3 gas normal 5 gate sentry expand to third or something. So. You see 6 gate no gas. You make a ton of roach/ling. Toss can't possibly take his third, because he won't have enough sentries, and you will have a shitton of units. You will just fucking deny his third forever. He will have to wait forever. In the meantime, you are teching hard and fast to speed roaches, burrow, hydras, mutas, whatever, while taking a fourth base. And really, by taht point in the game, you've won. You can't really do any 'timing' with 6 gate besides when warp gate first finishes. If a 6 gate timing isn't going to work (assuming proper reaction from zerg) at the standard 8:30 mark, how is it possibly going to work at the 10:00 mark? Makes no sense. By then you'll have a tonof hydras. I don't really understand what you are saying. If toss is doing a sub-optimal build, you just end up ahead by responding as if he was playing optimally. If Toss is doing a no gas 6 gate that's really bad and late, you don't need an upgrade. So what you do is see no gas, so you know what's up, you don't get the upgrade. You mass roach/ling, make no lair. Then, you are at about 90-110 supply. You realize, hey, my army way fucking bigger now, I'd stomp him if he moves out, because my econ has kicked in, and he has no tech that can take advantage of my hatch tech. So then you tech up, and get upgrades, lair, speed, et cetera. For the same reason, you can't just 4 gate expand. You just die. Like you can't do it. For the same reasons, you can't just 6 gate no gas FFE and just play out. I don't know why you're harping that it's a supoptimal build; it's a build NonY brought up on SotG after IEM Gaungzhao and has used several times on ladder to great success. The has the regular timing with his orignal sentries where he has a lot of energy and he uses it for one timine where protoss has a lot of FF's and tries to snipe the third. Instead of doing the hardcore just warping in stalkers/zealots to try to kill the guy, he continues probing and takes the double gas as he leaves and doesn't over commit into the third. I know you like to argue, but perhaps you can admit that a low masters zerg doesn't know the game as well as NonY, so you might take his word for it? I mostly do it off 3gate now and it is very strong against zergs who have taken a 3rd going roach/ling. 6gate is still good against some zerg builds but it's pretty terrible against others and you've got no control over what they're doing, nor scouting to cut your losses and change builds at an early enough time. Another important point is that I play from 2gate or 3gate expand, not FFE. I don't think FFE can pressure a 3rd very safely.
I do agree on this one. The only FFE version I sometimes use is the Kiwikaki double gateway style (Mid-Masters). It is able to snip a fast third, but sometimes gets destroyed by a simple roach defense. 2/3 Gate expand allows you to hit almost the same timings but much more safely and allows you to push for the third in a safer way.
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Hi Belial,
What exactly do you mean by "0 gas into 1 gas" and how is that different from 1 gas? Does 1 gas means it 1 gas is finished right when the nexus is done and 0 gas into 1 gas means he is not mining from any geysers for a while, but then he throws down a third gas?
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The easiest way for people to understand that you are saying the "Belial Answer" instead of the "Correct Answer" is to preface your post with the words: "In my opinion." And in my opinion, these two should be interchangable if you are giving someone DIRECT advice (for example: build a starport as soon as you can with your cloaked banshee build).
But I'm off topic, and this doesn't really matter too much to me.
Thanks for this Belial. I tried this out, and I prefer my own reactionary timings; 3rd at 40ish supply, and as many queens as possible in the early game. But now I know a better lair timing, when to throw down roaches, and evo timings.
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Nice guide! I feel like some of your timings may be a little off but overall really detailed! :D
Which ones?
On March 14 2012 06:55 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 03:42 Arisen wrote:On March 13 2012 21:03 Belial88 wrote:I never said 70 drones, I said 70 supply. Also, 70 supply at 8:00 minute means you have like somewhere in the upper 50's of drones actually mining, and the rest of the supply taken up by morphing drones, as well as queens and random lings. The game I was talking about was Idra vs Oz on Dual Sight, but if you watch any of the DRG vs Genius finals he hit 70+ in all but one game (i think the one he didn't was daybreak).
Pretty solid. I would offer that you should in fact get an upgrade if he's going for a WG pressure build to insure you have a followup.
If you want to, sure, of course. I would even recommend it. I was just saying DONT get it if toss is doing a hardcore gateway all-in. Otherwise, do whatever you think is necessary. Most people just go all-in with 6 gate, but there are protoss (especially on the NA server) who 6 gate while taking a double gas behind it to put together a pretty strong timing on the third with a lot of sentry energy and then transitions (usually to 3rd and blink with a slower colossus). If someone is doing a sub-optimal bad play, and you react as if they were playing optimally, you will only end up ahead. That's like saying making roach/ling against a 4 gate is bad because Toss could theoretically just be going 4 gate expand. No. Toss goes 6 gate, you see no gas, so he won't ahve lots of sentries. Geysers take a while to warp in, and build up gas. So you get 1 gas, that's 30 seconds, then about another minute to basically get 1 sentry out. So it's like 2 minutes to get 2 sentries from 1 gas. So getting 2 gas late, as in past the 8:00 mark, means Toss won't have sentries for a long fucking time. He would've done better going 3 gas normal 5 gate sentry expand to third or something. So. You see 6 gate no gas. You make a ton of roach/ling. Toss can't possibly take his third, because he won't have enough sentries, and you will have a shitton of units. You will just fucking deny his third forever. He will have to wait forever. In the meantime, you are teching hard and fast to speed roaches, burrow, hydras, mutas, whatever, while taking a fourth base. And really, by taht point in the game, you've won. You can't really do any 'timing' with 6 gate besides when warp gate first finishes. If a 6 gate timing isn't going to work (assuming proper reaction from zerg) at the standard 8:30 mark, how is it possibly going to work at the 10:00 mark? Makes no sense. By then you'll have a tonof hydras. I don't really understand what you are saying. If toss is doing a sub-optimal build, you just end up ahead by responding as if he was playing optimally. If Toss is doing a no gas 6 gate that's really bad and late, you don't need an upgrade. So what you do is see no gas, so you know what's up, you don't get the upgrade. You mass roach/ling, make no lair. Then, you are at about 90-110 supply. You realize, hey, my army way fucking bigger now, I'd stomp him if he moves out, because my econ has kicked in, and he has no tech that can take advantage of my hatch tech. So then you tech up, and get upgrades, lair, speed, et cetera. For the same reason, you can't just 4 gate expand. You just die. Like you can't do it. For the same reasons, you can't just 6 gate no gas FFE and just play out. I don't know why you're harping that it's a supoptimal build; it's a build NonY brought up on SotG after IEM Gaungzhao and has used several times on ladder to great success. The has the regular timing with his orignal sentries where he has a lot of energy and he uses it for one timine where protoss has a lot of FF's and tries to snipe the third. Instead of doing the hardcore just warping in stalkers/zealots to try to kill the guy, he continues probing and takes the double gas as he leaves and doesn't over commit into the third. I know you like to argue, but perhaps you can admit that a low masters zerg doesn't know the game as well as NonY, so you might take his word for it? I mostly do it off 3gate now and it is very strong against zergs who have taken a 3rd going roach/ling. 6gate is still good against some zerg builds but it's pretty terrible against others and you've got no control over what they're doing, nor scouting to cut your losses and change builds at an early enough time. Another important point is that I play from 2gate or 3gate expand, not FFE. I don't think FFE can pressure a 3rd very safely.
Wow pretty cool to get NoNy himself to support my argument - Take that Arisen ^^
belial!
This thread is awesome. I found the history of drone saturation and maynarding very interesting.
Also, the the structure of this guide is very easy to read. Looking forward to your next one!
I think you just beat me on ladder earlier, in a zvz on antiga right? God i hate that map. i think i went lair too fast because i was ahead in drones the whole time but you killed a bunch when I maynarded them for safety reasons - i shouldve just left them at the third.
Anyways, please, please, please EndofLine, you need to message Zatic and tell him that. He thinks my guide looks extremely unorganized, he prefers a different formatting for guides and says people don't want to click a bunch of shit. I told him people don't want to look at a wall of text.
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On March 14 2012 08:23 Xizorz wrote:
I'm confused as to how you are getting 3 overlords to the toss base by 8 minutes. Are you sending your 1st created overlord over?
I've always kept that over my natural to prevent some pylon nonsense.
Well, belial has included a replay, so you can just see how he's doing it there. It's definitely most common and standard to send your first created overlord to your nat though, I would consider it pretty risky to send it to your opponent, at least until your nat is up.
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From personal experience, a lot of 1gate expands make a few less sentries (and often dont take the second gas altogether), which in turn makes your pressure a tiny bit weaker. Also 2gate expand will never ever be broken by any amount of speeldlings (which can come off a delayed gas too), while 1gate has a small timing where it can be hurt (6minutes ish)
1 gate expand will not be hurt by a gasless pool. All there is, is that 1 gate expand has a small timing where it can be hurt, around 6 minutes, by a speedling expand, but if zerg does not go gas first, he will not have speed in time to pressure a 1 gate expand. All Toss has to do is scout and see if Zerg went gas first or pool first, and then go 1/3 gate expand accordingly.
I'm confused as to how you are getting 3 overlords to the toss base by 8 minutes. Are you sending your 1st created overlord over?
I've always kept that over my natural to prevent some pylon nonsense.
So do I.
Beginning Overlord - To farthest point (so say on Shakuras, I will have this overlord go to one of the bases, and then go past it. You really want it so both overlords to sac into main approach from opposite sides of the base, and since this is the first overlord, I make it go farthest)
1st Overlord - Watches Natural until about 16 supply, when I bring drones down, then I send it to gas. This overlord is safe to cross over even the middle of the map, or in front of the Toss base.
2nd Overlord - Send this one on the nearest side of Toss base.
3rd Overlord - Watches over my third. (sometimes 2 and 3 are swapped if map is smaller).
I think TDA cross positions is one of the few places where you may have trouble, but the 3 overlords will at least be near the Toss base, so anything like stargate will be made obvious by them.
Hi Belial,
What exactly do you mean by "0 gas into 1 gas" and how is that different from 1 gas? Does 1 gas means it 1 gas is finished right when the nexus is done and 0 gas into 1 gas means he is not mining from any geysers for a while, but then he throws down a third gas?
There's a small note in that section where I explained this. But in that section, I was talking about natural's gas. Toss has to take his 1st and 2nd gas in main at ~22 supply when going FFE 1 gate cyber, they just have to. The only time Toss doesn't get those 2 gas in main at same time at 22 before the natural nexus completes, is when going FFE 2 gate before cyber, which is obvious (2 gates,no cyber, no gas taken in main super early).
So when I said 0 gas, it means 2 gas only taken in main, and that the natural is empty. When I said 0 gas into 1 gas, it means 0 gas at natural for a long time, and then 1 gas taken around maybe 7:00-7:30. You can replace 0 with 2, 1 with 3, and 2 with 4 total gas, if that makes sense.
There's a note in that section above the gas spoilered parts where I cleared this up.
The easiest way for people to understand that you are saying the "Belial Answer" instead of the "Correct Answer" is to preface your post with the words: "In my opinion." And in my opinion, these two should be interchangable if you are giving someone DIRECT advice (for example: build a starport as soon as you can with your cloaked banshee build).
But I'm off topic, and this doesn't really matter too much to me.
Everything I say is obviously my point of view. Like.... it's obvious it's coming out of my mouth, and no where else. My username isn't TL-Godbot. And everything everyone says here is they're own opinion. It's a forum.
Thanks for this Belial. I tried this out, and I prefer my own reactionary timings; 3rd at 40ish supply, and as many queens as possible in the early game. But now I know a better lair timing, when to throw down roaches, and evo timings.
I'm glad you like it, but I'm going to ask why you do what you do.
3rd at 40? That seems a bit late. Now, the issue is that no one has actually done any testing on when is the best time to take a fast third, and I did a bit of testing in evo chamber and it seemed to imply that ~30 is the best time to take it, but really, who knows when the best time to take a third is. Pro players seem to grab it between 25-35, but pro koreans were going extractor trick every single game for a long time, and many of them still go 15 hatch instead of 14 hatch, so just because pros do something doesn't make it right.
But why are you making as many queens as possible at the start? That just kills your econ, queens cost so much! We all learned by now that the Spanishiwa build of 4 queens is horrible, because it just absolutely trashed your econ, as well as map control. Why would you make so many queens?
Mind if you provide your benchmark of what your supply is at 8:00?
On a side note, I used to mass queens when going fast third when I first started doing it in diamond, when I was first learning it. It was a fun way to play it, any bad diamond toss push came and I just had mass queens to push them back, and it was quite effective at low level play. It was fun ^^
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Belial I have read just about everything in the guide but I don't see any advice on 4 gate +1 zealot pressure. I run into this a heck of a lot.
Its basically a +1 attack before warpgate then no gas at natural until like 6/7 minutes in. Its pretty obvious to see coming but it has so many transitions afterwards I have trouble figuring out what hes doing.
Ive played vs 4 gate into blink +2 allin, 4 gate into DT, 4 gate into +2 blink immortal allin, 4 gate into 1/1 8 gate, ect ect.
I know i can handle the pressure as it comes but how to scout the transition with a delayed lair (after seeing no gas in his nat).
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^ Can you provide a VOD example of it?
I've stated already though that if you see no gas at the Toss natural, you should take the roach warren a bit earlier.
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On March 14 2012 18:26 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +The easiest way for people to understand that you are saying the "Belial Answer" instead of the "Correct Answer" is to preface your post with the words: "In my opinion." And in my opinion, these two should be interchangable if you are giving someone DIRECT advice (for example: build a starport as soon as you can with your cloaked banshee build).
But I'm off topic, and this doesn't really matter too much to me. Everything I say is obviously my point of view. Like.... it's obvious it's coming out of my mouth, and no where else. My username isn't TL-Godbot. And everything everyone says here is they're own opinion. It's a forum. Show nested quote +Thanks for this Belial. I tried this out, and I prefer my own reactionary timings; 3rd at 40ish supply, and as many queens as possible in the early game. But now I know a better lair timing, when to throw down roaches, and evo timings. I'm glad you like it, but I'm going to ask why you do what you do. 3rd at 40? That seems a bit late. Now, the issue is that no one has actually done any testing on when is the best time to take a fast third, and I did a bit of testing in evo chamber and it seemed to imply that ~30 is the best time to take it, but really, who knows when the best time to take a third is. Pro players seem to grab it between 25-35, but pro koreans were going extractor trick every single game for a long time, and many of them still go 15 hatch instead of 14 hatch, so just because pros do something doesn't make it right. But why are you making as many queens as possible at the start? That just kills your econ, queens cost so much! We all learned by now that the Spanishiwa build of 4 queens is horrible, because it just absolutely trashed your econ, as well as map control. Why would you make so many queens? Mind if you provide your benchmark of what your supply is at 8:00? On a side note, I used to mass queens when going fast third when I first started doing it in diamond, when I was first learning it. It was a fun way to play it, any bad diamond toss push came and I just had mass queens to push them back, and it was quite effective at low level play. It was fun ^^
The issue is people don't understand that what comes out of a person's mouth is always their opinion.
Either way: I get queens when I have no larva in the early game. That way I don't delay my droning; however I am delaying my gas, and expand. The reason I do this is because I feel that having good creep spread is vital in the early game, and transfuse is vital in the late game. This also means that I'm not delaying my expands' queens, and if I lose queens to anything, I will have more. Lastly, it helps me a lot vs phoenix play (I didn't have a timing for my evo yet).
I'll give you a benchmark in the next day or so; have never used them, so I have to check.
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^ As I stated earlier, I get frustrated too when I see lower level people say incorrect stuff, so I can understand why some higher level people don't like me. But the ones that talk to me usually understand I'm not here to do anything wrong, I'm just another low level scrub. It's just the ones that I guess don't care to talk to me that stay stuck in their ways. Some people might be surprised to learn I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, and it doesnt take much to convince me that, or that I'm a nice guy (although I'm still a bit of a troll).
Either way: I get queens when I have no larva in the early game. That way I don't delay my droning; however I am delaying my gas, and expand. The reason I do this is because I feel that having good creep spread is vital in the early game, and transfuse is vital in the late game. This also means that I'm not delaying my expands' queens, and if I lose queens to anything, I will have more. Lastly, it helps me a lot vs phoenix play (I didn't have a timing for my evo yet).
So what happens if Toss plays greedy, like he goes for fast third? It seems like you would be really weak to that. Or what if Toss does a techy push like blink all-in or immortal/sentry? Your drone count would end up too low.
I don't know if creep spread is 'vital' - it's helpful, sure, but unlike, say, ZvT, I think it's definitely ambiguous as to how important creep spread is, and it's not clear cut if creep spread is super important. Like, you might want to just inject, or delay queens for drones, whereas in ZvT, you *must* get creep going.
I don't know about transfuse being vital though. Lategame you can pump mass queens very quickly off of your many bases.
It sounds like you are just setting yourself up to be better against certain styles of play, and worse against others.
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On March 14 2012 18:09 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Nice guide! I feel like some of your timings may be a little off but overall really detailed! :D Which ones? Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 06:55 Liquid`NonY wrote:On March 14 2012 03:42 Arisen wrote:On March 13 2012 21:03 Belial88 wrote:I never said 70 drones, I said 70 supply. Also, 70 supply at 8:00 minute means you have like somewhere in the upper 50's of drones actually mining, and the rest of the supply taken up by morphing drones, as well as queens and random lings. The game I was talking about was Idra vs Oz on Dual Sight, but if you watch any of the DRG vs Genius finals he hit 70+ in all but one game (i think the one he didn't was daybreak).
Pretty solid. I would offer that you should in fact get an upgrade if he's going for a WG pressure build to insure you have a followup.
If you want to, sure, of course. I would even recommend it. I was just saying DONT get it if toss is doing a hardcore gateway all-in. Otherwise, do whatever you think is necessary. Most people just go all-in with 6 gate, but there are protoss (especially on the NA server) who 6 gate while taking a double gas behind it to put together a pretty strong timing on the third with a lot of sentry energy and then transitions (usually to 3rd and blink with a slower colossus). If someone is doing a sub-optimal bad play, and you react as if they were playing optimally, you will only end up ahead. That's like saying making roach/ling against a 4 gate is bad because Toss could theoretically just be going 4 gate expand. No. Toss goes 6 gate, you see no gas, so he won't ahve lots of sentries. Geysers take a while to warp in, and build up gas. So you get 1 gas, that's 30 seconds, then about another minute to basically get 1 sentry out. So it's like 2 minutes to get 2 sentries from 1 gas. So getting 2 gas late, as in past the 8:00 mark, means Toss won't have sentries for a long fucking time. He would've done better going 3 gas normal 5 gate sentry expand to third or something. So. You see 6 gate no gas. You make a ton of roach/ling. Toss can't possibly take his third, because he won't have enough sentries, and you will have a shitton of units. You will just fucking deny his third forever. He will have to wait forever. In the meantime, you are teching hard and fast to speed roaches, burrow, hydras, mutas, whatever, while taking a fourth base. And really, by taht point in the game, you've won. You can't really do any 'timing' with 6 gate besides when warp gate first finishes. If a 6 gate timing isn't going to work (assuming proper reaction from zerg) at the standard 8:30 mark, how is it possibly going to work at the 10:00 mark? Makes no sense. By then you'll have a tonof hydras. I don't really understand what you are saying. If toss is doing a sub-optimal build, you just end up ahead by responding as if he was playing optimally. If Toss is doing a no gas 6 gate that's really bad and late, you don't need an upgrade. So what you do is see no gas, so you know what's up, you don't get the upgrade. You mass roach/ling, make no lair. Then, you are at about 90-110 supply. You realize, hey, my army way fucking bigger now, I'd stomp him if he moves out, because my econ has kicked in, and he has no tech that can take advantage of my hatch tech. So then you tech up, and get upgrades, lair, speed, et cetera. For the same reason, you can't just 4 gate expand. You just die. Like you can't do it. For the same reasons, you can't just 6 gate no gas FFE and just play out. I don't know why you're harping that it's a supoptimal build; it's a build NonY brought up on SotG after IEM Gaungzhao and has used several times on ladder to great success. The has the regular timing with his orignal sentries where he has a lot of energy and he uses it for one timine where protoss has a lot of FF's and tries to snipe the third. Instead of doing the hardcore just warping in stalkers/zealots to try to kill the guy, he continues probing and takes the double gas as he leaves and doesn't over commit into the third. I know you like to argue, but perhaps you can admit that a low masters zerg doesn't know the game as well as NonY, so you might take his word for it? I mostly do it off 3gate now and it is very strong against zergs who have taken a 3rd going roach/ling. 6gate is still good against some zerg builds but it's pretty terrible against others and you've got no control over what they're doing, nor scouting to cut your losses and change builds at an early enough time. Another important point is that I play from 2gate or 3gate expand, not FFE. I don't think FFE can pressure a 3rd very safely. Wow pretty cool to get NoNy himself to support my argument - Take that Arisen ^^ Show nested quote +
belial!
This thread is awesome. I found the history of drone saturation and maynarding very interesting.
Also, the the structure of this guide is very easy to read. Looking forward to your next one!
I think you just beat me on ladder earlier, in a zvz on antiga right? God i hate that map. i think i went lair too fast because i was ahead in drones the whole time but you killed a bunch when I maynarded them for safety reasons - i shouldve just left them at the third. Anyways, please, please, please EndofLine, you need to message Zatic and tell him that. He thinks my guide looks extremely unorganized, he prefers a different formatting for guides and says people don't want to click a bunch of shit. I told him people don't want to look at a wall of text.
Yep, that was me - I love antiga ^_^ I thought we were around the same with drones? I will go watch the replay, you may be right. Is Zatic a mod? Either way, I will tell him I think your style of guide makes it easy to find the info you are seeking when re reading the guide.
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On March 13 2012 23:07 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Excellent guide with tons of useful timings, scouting information and macro benchmarks.
Kudos for putting it together, very thorough Glad you like it, but aren't you at a level where you already know all of this? I'm assuming all of the diamond+ knew all of this. Maybe the benchmarking section might have been useful? I don't know. Let me know what you learned when you post guys. And I can't be all-knowing, surely there is stuff out there that I could add that I am not aware of.
Oh I knew the scouting information and some timings. But the macro benchmarks are just really nice to allow people to have something to work to. Myself I use larvae-spawning gap reduction as a macro benchmark, but using supply can be an easy to understand way for people below and on diamond to use as a goal. Since training macro is quite boring most of the time, but it's what most of the game hinges on and its where most of the lower level people are stuck at. That's why I like those benchmarks.
Just because I know the stuff doesn't mean I can't compliment the thorough information you put together  .
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These benchmarks are really useful. TY
Is there a thread that is just full of benchmarks for all the different matchups and build?
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I don't think so, but you could just apply the concept to anything.
I think I've heard day9 talk about how you should compare where you are at in your replays, to pros, to see if you are macro'ing right.
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On March 15 2012 02:32 shadowrunner99 wrote:
These benchmarks are really useful. TY
Is there a thread that is just full of benchmarks for all the different matchups and build?
This doesn't particularly work for anything other than FFE v 3base zerg, mostly because this is the only situation where early game variants are devoid and unit loss doesn't occur before a specified time. That's why many tosses are transitioning out of 2base blind all-in builds vs zerg because zerg knows that if they can macro to 70 drones at 8 minute mark everytime they will beat toss of similar skill micro everytime if toss 2base all-ins.
EDIT:
Unless you do some sort of non-reactive build or non-scouting builds, of course.
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EPT
