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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
Well I said I was on 69 supply at 8:00, despite the 11 Overpool obviously, which is over your benchmark. here's the deal: Either the Protoss is very greedy, then you will do serious damage and delay mining with those lings (running by the cannon if it's up). Or, the protoss isn't greedy, which gives you even more time in the long run. This is basically win/win situation. | ||
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Jombozeus
China1014 Posts
On March 13 2012 19:50 Belial88 wrote: ^ I don't recall you ever showing me why in ZvP it is not shit. If you are talking about getting lings in, isn't that 10 pool, not 11 pool? If you are talking about 11 pool for aggression though, that's a little bit different though, although yes, that would mean I might be a bit wrong in my criticism. Even while losing overlords and making lings to deal with zealots, you can still get to 70+. On Dual Sight Idra vs Oz, Idra got to 70+ even after dealing with a cannon rush at his third. Obviously, that's idra though, and obviously, many of us can't hit 70+ in a real game, nor ever hope to consistently hit that, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a benchmark we should be striving for. If you can get past 60 supply, you should be good. If you are in the lower 50's in a real game, that's definitely a problem. Not aggression. You screw with the protoss BO with this build. 11pool forces cannon before nexus and forces a cannon before gateway as well as a second gateway + cancel. Beyond that, you also force the building probe to stay near his cannons. Everything adds up. A lot of pros argue its still not as good, but its definitely not shit. 70 drones should only be allowed when the protoss lets you. Cannon rush being failed actually makes it easier to drone. Almost all protosses send 1 or 2 zealots to pressure to force you to make lings. You will not make 70, not in the current metagame zealot timings. Well, you can, but you are probably skimping on creepspread or spines or gas. That's how protosses are still winning 2-base all-ins against zerg, the uncertainty in timings of zealot/stalker harass forcing zerg to macro safer. Otherwise, no one should be able to win a 2-base all-in against anyone beyond high masters because a risktaking zerg will always crush 2-base allins. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Either the Protoss is very greedy, then you will do serious damage and delay mining with those lings (running by the cannon if it's up). This is a huge gamble, and Toss will always scout you before your pool pops (that's just standard at high level play to make sure no 6 pool and if can get away with nexus first possibly, although not sure about platinum). Once they arrive in your base and realize your pool was planted before 2:00 (ie earlier than 14), they will sure as hell not be 'greedy'. Maybe in platinum Toss players can't tell if it's 10 pool or 14 pool, but I would imagine fairly early on and in lower levels, toss players can tell if it's 14 pool or 10 pool, and will react accordingly. Even if you go 11 pool, they can still get away with being fairly greedy. And, the worst thing is, is that you are behind about 5-7 drones by going 11 pool with 6 lings. So you need to kill at least 4 probes with your 6 lings. There is no way in hell you are ever going to kill more than maybe 2 workers, if any, against a competent protoss, with only 6 lings, especially when they get a cannon up to shoot the lings so it's only 4-5 lings, which suddenly can't take on a zealot that has probes near by to help out if you engage. So I really don't think 11 pool is good in that regard. You are just gambling that the Toss is a fucking moron and can't tell you put down the pool before 2:00 by seeing it more than half done when they arrive. Or, the protoss isn't greedy, which gives you even more time in the long run. This is basically win/win situation. How is that a win, that you made a bunch of units early on that accomplished nothing? it's not like making 6 lings at the start loses you 3 drones - it's more like losing 10 drones compared to going just 14 pool and making only drones. I mean, there's a reason why zergs don't make units at the start of the game if it's such a 'win/win'. You know, the whole, if you don't make pure drones at the start of the game, you are going to be so fucking far behind chrono/mule that you will just die in econ game. Just take your natural, and compare 14 pool to 11 pool. You should notice a huge difference in economy. I really disagree with your points. Jombo, please tell me what the merits of 11 pool are. | ||
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
Ok but then how am I able to hit 69 supply anyways? | ||
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Jombozeus
China1014 Posts
On March 13 2012 20:07 Mahtasooma wrote: Ok but then how am I able to hit 69 supply anyways? The difference isn't very large between 14/15pool and 11overpool in economy. Probably have to look at creep spread or gas count. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Not aggression. You screw with the protoss BO with this build. 11pool forces cannon before nexus and forces a cannon before gateway as well as a second gateway + cancel. Beyond that, you also force the building probe to stay near his cannons. Everything adds up. A lot of pros argue its still not as good, but its definitely not shit. Okay, so it's not shit, but it still sounds like a gamble that Toss can see ahead of time and, if they react correctly, come out ahead. Toss will see it coming, and there's a definite thing Toss can do to end up ahead at the end of it all. 70 drones should only be allowed when the protoss lets you. Cannon rush being failed actually makes it easier to drone. Almost all protosses send 1 or 2 zealots to pressure to force you to make lings. You will not make 70, not in the current metagame zealot timings. I mean in that game Oz did a cannon rush + gateway attack at the third, not just a standard cannon rush at the natural that failed miserably. I see DRG regularly hit 70+ drones in tournament play. If you are saying that I, personally, won't hit 70 against a competent toss (and competent of course means high masters, which I'm not, so by definition, of course not, but against a mid-masters toss, I could). But it's definitely possible. That's how protosses are still winning 2-base all-ins against zerg, the uncertainty in timings of zealot/stalker harass forcing zerg to macro safer. Otherwise, no one should be able to win a 2-base all-in against anyone beyond high masters because a risktaking zerg will always crush 2-base allins. That's very interesting, thanks for sharing that. | ||
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Jombozeus
China1014 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Jombozeus
China1014 Posts
On March 13 2012 20:18 Belial88 wrote: ^ It's still possible to still hit 75 supply (not saying drones there) while dealing with such harass, like idra dealing with oz's pressure. I never said 75 drones, and 75 supply anyways means more like 67 drones at most, although really at 8:00 that means like 60 drones actually mining at that moment at most. A failed pressure means that timings are ruined. It makes droning completely free. Show me the game, and I'll analyze it. I use 75 drones because we are specifically talking DRG, of which I'm taking him as the specific example. I still think that letting zerg hit 70 drones at 8 minute mark uncontested means that protoss did something WRONG (or he took a greedy third/tech). In which case, it wasn't that you CAN hit 70 drones, its that the protoss has let you. With that logic, I can hit 200 drones at the 13 minute mark. EDIT: I'm going to tl;dr my argument. 70 drones at 8:00 is not a benchmark, it is a hopeful. If zergs start believing that they have to hit 70 drones at 8:00 to be optimal, you're going to start seeing a lot of zergs die to random zealot or zealot/stalker pressures. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
The game I was talking about was Idra vs Oz on Dual Sight, but if you watch any of the DRG vs Genius finals he hit 70+ in all but one game (i think the one he didn't was daybreak). Pretty solid. I would offer that you should in fact get an upgrade if he's going for a WG pressure build to insure you have a followup. If you want to, sure, of course. I would even recommend it. I was just saying DONT get it if toss is doing a hardcore gateway all-in. Otherwise, do whatever you think is necessary. Most people just go all-in with 6 gate, but there are protoss (especially on the NA server) who 6 gate while taking a double gas behind it to put together a pretty strong timing on the third with a lot of sentry energy and then transitions (usually to 3rd and blink with a slower colossus). If someone is doing a sub-optimal bad play, and you react as if they were playing optimally, you will only end up ahead. That's like saying making roach/ling against a 4 gate is bad because Toss could theoretically just be going 4 gate expand. No. Toss goes 6 gate, you see no gas, so he won't ahve lots of sentries. Geysers take a while to warp in, and build up gas. So you get 1 gas, that's 30 seconds, then about another minute to basically get 1 sentry out. So it's like 2 minutes to get 2 sentries from 1 gas. So getting 2 gas late, as in past the 8:00 mark, means Toss won't have sentries for a long fucking time. He would've done better going 3 gas normal 5 gate sentry expand to third or something. So. You see 6 gate no gas. You make a ton of roach/ling. Toss can't possibly take his third, because he won't have enough sentries, and you will have a shitton of units. You will just fucking deny his third forever. He will have to wait forever. In the meantime, you are teching hard and fast to speed roaches, burrow, hydras, mutas, whatever, while taking a fourth base. And really, by taht point in the game, you've won. You can't really do any 'timing' with 6 gate besides when warp gate first finishes. If a 6 gate timing isn't going to work (assuming proper reaction from zerg) at the standard 8:30 mark, how is it possibly going to work at the 10:00 mark? Makes no sense. By then you'll have a tonof hydras. I don't really understand what you are saying. If toss is doing a sub-optimal build, you just end up ahead by responding as if he was playing optimally. If Toss is doing a no gas 6 gate that's really bad and late, you don't need an upgrade. So what you do is see no gas, so you know what's up, you don't get the upgrade. You mass roach/ling, make no lair. Then, you are at about 90-110 supply. You realize, hey, my army way fucking bigger now, I'd stomp him if he moves out, because my econ has kicked in, and he has no tech that can take advantage of my hatch tech. So then you tech up, and get upgrades, lair, speed, et cetera. For the same reason, you can't just 4 gate expand. You just die. Like you can't do it. For the same reasons, you can't just 6 gate no gas FFE and just play out. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On March 13 2012 20:21 Jombozeus wrote: A failed pressure means that timings are ruined. It makes droning completely free. Show me the game, and I'll analyze it. I use 75 drones because we are specifically talking DRG, of which I'm taking him as the specific example. I still think that letting zerg hit 70 drones at 8 minute mark uncontested means that protoss did something WRONG (or he took a greedy third/tech). In which case, it wasn't that you CAN hit 70 drones, its that the protoss has let you. With that logic, I can hit 200 drones at the 13 minute mark. EDIT: I'm going to tl;dr my argument. 70 drones at 8:00 is not a benchmark, it is a hopeful. If zergs start believing that they have to hit 70 drones at 8:00 to be optimal, you're going to start seeing a lot of zergs die to random zealot or zealot/stalker pressures. First of all, we're talking supply, not drones. Having 75 drones by 8min mark is probably impossible. Second of all, why is it not a benchmark just because pressure can put you in a situation where it isn't adviceable? I would think it pretty easy to open a replay, go to 8minutes, check your supply and try to defend why supply is lower than 65 when it's very possible to get to 75 supply in mostly drones if you macro well unless you're somehow forced not to. The benchmark is just saying "It's possible to macro this well, even when dealing with some pressure, do your best to get there", if you have good reasons for being at lower supply, there's nothing more to it. Of course zergs would think it optimal to hit 75 supply by the 8 minute mark, in mostly drones... all zergs know this, the whole race is basically centered around getting as many workers as quickly as possible and then win off the economic advantage. Just because it's optimal doesn't mean zergs actually go for it if they have a reason not to. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On March 13 2012 20:09 Jombozeus wrote: The difference isn't very large between 14/15pool and 11overpool in economy. Probably have to look at creep spread or gas count. The difference is actually pretty big, but it isn't noticeable until the 8 minute mark and later. 11 overpool with 18 hatch is slightly ahead of 14pool 16 hatch in the early game due to the fact that you get your queens out earlier. But 14 pool/16 hatch get's its third placed quicker and thereby gets two extra injects worth of drones before 11 overpool at the third. 14p16h: If you place the third at 4:30 it finishes at 6:10, the first inject pops at 6:50, the second at 7:30 and the 3rd at 8:10. 11p18h: If you place the third at 5:50 it finishes at 7:30, the first inject pops at 8:10. In addition to the injects, you get 5 more larvae spawned from the hatchery placed 1m20s earlier. That's a total of 4+4+5 = 13 larvae if you hit your injects. On 2 base maps, like shattered or tal'darim, I think 11 overpool might be better. | ||
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C[h]ili
Germany167 Posts
I may have overlooked something, but could you possibly elaborate a bit on queen production and usage? I get my first queen directly at 16 supply. Then I inject two times, while producing the second queen in the main after I have taken the third base. I then place one creep tumor in the main and move that queen to the nat, while I produce a third queen at the third. In case I suspect some air play, I get two additional queens at my 2nd and 3rd at around 7:30. It would be helpful for me if you could comment on that. | ||
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enykie
Germany64 Posts
 As is said you before, i vote Belial for Blueposts :D. Allways #1 posts with essential explanations. Cheers | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
Then I realized that I need to follow Belial's advise to get enough supply for that time mark. I need to build more stuff instead of randomly morph tech structures or having larvae idling around. While the guide is quite long with much content, this is the single thing I want to achieve. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/mstephano/b/311464161 Game starts at ~2:14:00 Stephano makes 6 lings (last 4 lings are a little later as a response to scouting zealot), has 3 queens, 1 creep tumor, 6:00 double gas, 7:00 evo+roach warren and is at 64 supply at 8:00. This is AFTER making a huge mistake of being supply blocked and way overmaking overlords. Also he went for lair with first 100 gas, then ling speed, and has barely enough for +1 or for roaches depending what he needs at 8:00. This is all the most standard of standard things so it would be a good benchmark. Ofcourse imagine if the didnt supply block himself for ~45 seconds then make 5 overlords in advance. I recommend people try playing vs the very easy AI and practice their ability to drone. Once they reach a goal then they should try their droning habits vs protoss opponents. Im also debating starting a thread about "Racing to 200/200" as a way to teach zergs to learn how to drone perfectly including build orders, optimized rally points/drone stacking, queen timings, ect. To be more relevant to actual gameplay, I want to add certain perameters like "6:00 double gas, 7:00 evo+roach". Would anyone be interested in that? | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
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