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On March 12 2012 20:41 ThomasHobbes wrote:
Great guide here, your advice (especially on pro-level macro) has really helped me refine my ZvP.
Honestly, I haven't seen any other zerg poster who puts the effort in that you do, keep up the great work.
shadymmj - I feel those builds are outdated for a reason. Getting collossus before the 3rd is up (I'm not mistaken?) is inviting a responsive zerg to saturate 3 bases, get up roach / hydra / corrupter, and roll over you when you try to move out. I feel like I've been put in such a great position against Protoss who trust a few collossus more than economy.
no no its 1sg into # gate into 3rd base then a push with colossi...just read the link. it's not outdated. it has been done by genius and at the latest european tournament, what's it called. and possibly earlier.
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453 Posts
On March 12 2012 20:42 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +One question I do have is how you feel about spine crawlers in the early-mid game of this matchup. I feel like one spine at the third is a good investment if you know they have a zealot timing coming, but is it better to just make earlier roaches and drone a bit harder to make up for them? I don't think spines are a good idea. I never see pros do it either. There's just no reason to. Any zealot or stalker pressure, you can see from a mile away, and make lings to deal with, much more cost effectively.
well actually Snute does it; and it seems to help him to drone a bit more. Obviously it's not mainstream, but I would consider it as a reasonable possibility.
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Great post Belial!
Just a quick question; how does the 7:30 roach warren hold against Hero's quick 4 gate +1 attack pressure off two bases (meaning, is it still okay to build it that late if you do believe this to be incoming)? I feel like it's a little late considering no spine crawlers; I understand you wrote to build it sooner if you don't scout gas at the expo, but I'm still curious.
Also, do you consider creep spread to your third a priority? 3rd queen right away for tumor, or later? Injects first? 4 queens total, or 3?
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Sounded like Greg in the benchmark section. I like that.
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well actually Snute [makes early spines]; and it seems to help him to drone a bit more. Obviously it's not mainstream, but I would consider it as a reasonable possibility.
Of course. I could definitely be wrong, and a spine for early pressure is great. I was thinking like spine as soon as third finished, to deal with like single stalker or zealot.
Just a quick question; how does the 7:30 roach warren hold against Hero's quick 4 gate +1 attack pressure off two bases (meaning, is it still okay to build it that late if you do believe this to be incoming)? I feel like it's a little late considering no spine crawlers; I understand you wrote to build it sooner if you don't scout gas at the expo, but I'm still curious.
This is just a general way to play fast third. It's a very general guide. I think your question is a bit beyond the OP, and it's not even 'my build', it's just sort of how to play fast third, and how it's generally done.
I kind of feel 7:30 roach warren is put at the time where, before roaches can come out, you can defend sufficiently with lings or queen/spine, to buy enough time. But making it a bit earlier to deal with pressure is fine.
I'm not saying don't ever make it earlier, or no spines, if you scout something that you push you to do so. But I think that 7:30 roach warren is quite early as it is, and most pros seem to always get it then or later.
If you could post a replay where someone holds such pressure successfully, and how they did it, maybe I can say more. But I'm no pro, and none of here are either. I think such play is well beyond this thread, if not this forum.
I don't consider creep spread to my third a priority, but if you do, go for it. There's nothing wrong with that. Getting your 3rd queen early or a 4th queen after 3rd is up to spread creep in important places (conneting natural and third on Korhal, spreading outward to deal with timings at vulnerable third on Daybreak, etc) is completely fine. I do think injects are very very important though (in zvt after double queen at start, i used to go inject/creep, but then i found out that inject/inject gave about 3 more drones, it was way better, and i could just spread creep with a later 3rd queen just fine), so I'd prefer getting your 3rd queen at natural and earlier so it can creep then go to third, or getting a fourth queen. but whatever.
You don't need to direct the questions to me. I'm not the expert here, this is just a very general guide, and anyone who is comfortable with going fast third can answer. It's not even a build order here, it's just sort of how to play it - like how to scout, what you are looking for, what you are trying to do.
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Your analysis on timings is great, thanks for the read.
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Great guide, thanks a lot. Will definitely help on the way to masters :-)
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Its good overview but tehre are 2 things that come to mind:
1. Things like hatch between X and Y doesn't help people: people need either a reason or an ingame solution I.E. I take my third hatch after i spend my first injects worth of larvae.
2. While this guide is a good overview the detail isn't broad enough to be comprehensive both in scope and depth.
Edit: My post seemed a little jerky and almost hypocritical with the lack of what i meant by not being comprehensive so hopefully this will be easier to understand.
You don't talk about how to hold of popular timing I.E. 7 gate blink +2 allins. I feel to be comprehensive you should descibe how to hold these builds of with something like. "After scouting the twilight and second upgrade you should begin making units (all gas going to roach rest ling) because otherwise if you don't have enough blink stalkers will snowball out of control. And maybe if a tip like " If the fight is at you third make roaches at your third hatch and the rest lings for fast reinforcement"
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wow, this is how a guide should be done. Benchmarking and timings are the real important things here and are really going to help me and others improve. I don't think i've seen any other guides with this attention to detail on timings and scouting tells
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It's a very solid guide. I prefer 15 pool to 14 though, that's just preference. For me this means that I will be able to put down my third hatch at 4.30 with a second queen in production and larvae popping soon after the third hatch is down and I'll be able to spend all my money on drones.
For those who are wondering when to get a macro hatch, if you've droned without any pressure (VERY SITUATIONAL) but a few zealots you should be dropping a macro hatch at 9.00 to 9.30 which will help you keep your money low if you are going roach ling. Though on some maps you might aswell take a faster forth like Stephano would (Shakuras).
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I think a lot of players will benefit from using macro benchmarks, as you mention. However this section could definitely be expanded upon greatly. Though it is very important, how many drones you have at the 8minute mark is not the only benchmark you should set. When I'm teaching a student macro ZvP, I encourage using multiple benchmarks at the 5 minute, 6 minute, 7 minute, and 8 minute marks. You can count more than just drones, you can check..
Creep tumors spread
Total Queens
Drone count
Overall supply
Overlord spread
For example, seeing that they aren't at the required 60-70 drones by 8minutes sometimes isn't enough information, but if you check to make sure you're at 52 supply by 7min, you can quickly pinpoint where your mistakes lie.
Thanks for the guide, Belial. Keep being confident  but do try not to fall into being arrogant! 
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A lot of useful information, this is well put together imo
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These macro benchmarks are really helpful, have you outlined additional ones for other match-ups/builds?
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On March 12 2012 21:27 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +well actually Snute [makes early spines]; and it seems to help him to drone a bit more. Obviously it's not mainstream, but I would consider it as a reasonable possibility. Of course. I could definitely be wrong, and a spine for early pressure is great. I was thinking like spine as soon as third finished, to deal with like single stalker or zealot. Show nested quote +Just a quick question; how does the 7:30 roach warren hold against Hero's quick 4 gate +1 attack pressure off two bases (meaning, is it still okay to build it that late if you do believe this to be incoming)? I feel like it's a little late considering no spine crawlers; I understand you wrote to build it sooner if you don't scout gas at the expo, but I'm still curious. This is just a general way to play fast third. It's a very general guide. I think your question is a bit beyond the OP, and it's not even 'my build', it's just sort of how to play fast third, and how it's generally done. I kind of feel 7:30 roach warren is put at the time where, before roaches can come out, you can defend sufficiently with lings or queen/spine, to buy enough time. But making it a bit earlier to deal with pressure is fine. I'm not saying don't ever make it earlier, or no spines, if you scout something that you push you to do so. But I think that 7:30 roach warren is quite early as it is, and most pros seem to always get it then or later. If you could post a replay where someone holds such pressure successfully, and how they did it, maybe I can say more. But I'm no pro, and none of here are either. I think such play is well beyond this thread, if not this forum. I don't consider creep spread to my third a priority, but if you do, go for it. There's nothing wrong with that. Getting your 3rd queen early or a 4th queen after 3rd is up to spread creep in important places (conneting natural and third on Korhal, spreading outward to deal with timings at vulnerable third on Daybreak, etc) is completely fine. I do think injects are very very important though (in zvt after double queen at start, i used to go inject/creep, but then i found out that inject/inject gave about 3 more drones, it was way better, and i could just spread creep with a later 3rd queen just fine), so I'd prefer getting your 3rd queen at natural and earlier so it can creep then go to third, or getting a fourth queen. but whatever. You don't need to direct the questions to me. I'm not the expert here, this is just a very general guide, and anyone who is comfortable with going fast third can answer. It's not even a build order here, it's just sort of how to play it - like how to scout, what you are looking for, what you are trying to do.
As someone who has abused the liquid'hero style +1 4gate zealot push for quite some time I will tell you that 7:30 is a bit too late to be able to defend. Spines and zerglings just dont hold against +1 zealots, and if your roaches pop out after the 8:50 mark, you are almost guaranteed to lose your 3rd.
There is also the issue that if the toss doesn't go with his first 4 zealots and instead waits for a wave of 8, you can easily be caught off guard with 8 zealots, and unless you were blindly making a lot of roaches the instant your rw finishes, you will be stuck trying to pop out enough roaches to suddenly stop 8 zealots before they can take down your 3rd, and ill tell you from personal experience, that wont happen.
However, having no gas at the expansion is not a solid tell, as I take my natural gas directly after I put down my gateways. I have been playing a lot of zerg lately as I believe that style fits me better, and when I zvp I always drop my roach warren at 7 minutes, no questions asked. Anything later than that and you have a strong chance of losing your 3rd to a well executed +1 zealot push.
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Another, extremely well put together, easy to read, and awesomely helpful guide from Belial. As someone who has read both this guide and your guide against early pools, I can say with confidence that you are amazing at making guides. I am looking forward to your next post.
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While the benchmarking part is really awesome, I think people should not overthink it. I'm just high platinum and vs very easy ai focusing only on macro, I can quite easily get to 75+ supply by the 8 min mark, it's not hard mechanically. This is when focusing on nothing else, it's important to remember that DRG and such do this while also scouting and reacting. That said, it's quite insane to feel the economy you get when you do it, keeping money low becomes an issue quite quick. I basically got to 8 minutes, started massing roaches like crazy, a-moved when I was maxed and checked stats when I won, my SQ was through the roof.
BTW, I have a question to you Belial:
You cover scouting pretty well, it's very nice to see someone explain how to minimally scout everything you need to know. However, you never give any timings... When should I be on the lookout for the gases at the natural? On most maps, I can probably place the overlords so I have constant coverage, but even so, when should gases usually go down for the toss?
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1. Things like hatch between X and Y doesn't help people: people need either a reason or an ingame solution I.E. I take my third hatch after i spend my first injects worth of larvae.
You are just taking it when you have enough drones. If you make it too early, it hurts too much, take it too late, your econ doesn't grow as much later on. I think saying 25-30 supply is pretty straightforward to everyone.
2. While this guide is a good overview the detail isn't broad enough to be comprehensive both in scope and depth.
It's just about the opener, but if you have any suggestions on how to be more in-depth, let me know.
You don't talk about how to hold of popular timing I.E. 7 gate blink +2 allins. I feel to be comprehensive you should descibe how to hold these builds of with something like. "After scouting the twilight and second upgrade you should begin making units (all gas going to roach rest ling) because otherwise if you don't have enough blink stalkers will snowball out of control. And maybe if a tip like " If the fight is at you third make roaches at your third hatch and the rest lings for fast reinforcement"
I do, and give replays. Pretty straightforward, get 60+ drones, get hydras. I say you scout by seeing 4 gas, mass gateways. As for your tip, I don't know how useful that is, but it's not something I've ever done.
It's a very solid guide. I prefer 15 pool to 14 though, that's just preference. For me this means that I will be able to put down my third hatch at 4.30 with a second queen in production and larvae popping soon after the third hatch is down and I'll be able to spend all my money on drones.
I would imagine 15 pool is better than 14 pool, actually.
I think a lot of players will benefit from using macro benchmarks, as you mention. However this section could definitely be expanded upon greatly. Though it is very important, how many drones you have at the 8minute mark is not the only benchmark you should set. When I'm teaching a student macro ZvP, I encourage using multiple benchmarks at the 5 minute, 6 minute, 7 minute, and 8 minute marks. You can count more than just drones, you can check..
Creep tumors spread
Total Queens
Drone count
Overall supply
Overlord spread
For example, seeing that they aren't at the required 60-70 drones by 8minutes sometimes isn't enough information, but if you check to make sure you're at 52 supply by 7min, you can quickly pinpoint where your mistakes lie.
Thanks for the guide, Belial. Keep being confident but do try not to fall into being arrogant!
Sure, using more benchmarks could very much be useful. Personally, I just use the 8:00 minute benchmark. I think what's most important is how many drones you have, some players don't find creep as important, et cetera. For example a lot don't get creep until a 4th queen, made at third, and spread it from third on daybreak. Anyways, sure, what you say is useful.
These macro benchmarks are really helpful, have you outlined additional ones for other match-ups/builds?
I don't think there's as much disparity as fast third, but I have. You can do it for anything, but I think with fast third it's really important, and something that should be in your mind while your actually playing the game.
BTW, I have a question to you Belial:
You cover scouting pretty well, it's very nice to see someone explain how to minimally scout everything you need to know. However, you never give any timings... When should I be on the lookout for the gases at the natural? On most maps, I can probably place the overlords so I have constant coverage, but even so, when should gases usually go down for the toss?
You just keep an overlord by the natural's gas. If you see Toss take those gases, that's the information right there. Timing of when he takes it, of course, can be useful, but you can usually figure it all out just by seeing that he took gas.
He'll be taking gas when you want to be scouting. So at 7:00, you are going to be asking "what is he doing?" At 10:00, you aren't going to be asking that question, so 4 gas then doesn't matter (he would'vew pushed by this point, obviously, you would have an overseer by then too). So it's just him taking those gas while you are still powering econ.
I also stated that at 7:00-7:30 is when you need to really scout and see what's up, so yea, seeing gas then, and sac'ing overlords, should tell you enough.
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If you're looking to still refine and add things to your guide I would look around for vods of the different gas to ling relationships that occur:
If you wait for around 45 supply to take all three gas, a +1 4gate will hit a very vulnerable time in your build, so it's worth noting that when delaying gas and therefor roach warren for so long, one should have enough lings to repel the 2 zealot 1 stalker 1 probe poke that is the beginning of the pressure and escort for the proxy pylon of a +1 4gate.
Denying that pylon is absolutely key, it buys time for speed and raoch tech to kick in.
I guess my point is there is a relationship of number of lings built when scouting an early plus 1 in relationship to the point in time when you take your gas.
And these lings are purely to deny the proxy pylon.
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Very, very good guide. Extremely well written and organized. I have seen variations of this build almost exclusively in recent tournaments that I have watched (IPL TAC, Iron Squid, etc). It really helps to explain all the nuances I have seen.
I also read the Comprehensive Guide to Beating 6 Pool. I will be stalking you from now on because all your posts are awesome.
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for as much as i seen you post, you appear to come off pretty douchy... very well written guide however. Been reworking my zvp and i agree with pretty much 100% of what iv seen. I may have some stylistic differences but in the fundamentals you got them. But still try to be a little less agro in general lol. You make good points but your soo angry sounding alot of the time
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EPT
