EPTKudos for putting it together, very thorough
[G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvP! - Page 5
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
Kudos for putting it together, very thorough | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Yes, you are delayed from 16 hatch to 21 hatch, but toss is just as delayed by making that pylon. It's not a big deal, a pylon is useless, but 4 lings aren't. So you are both spending 100 minerals, but you actually get something out of it. I think the idea back in the day was that if Zerg goes pool first, toss should not put down a pylon. This was back when people went hatch first a lot. But then I think a lot of Toss went for the pylon because it forces Zerg to make a choice of either go for the probe and delay their hatch by a lot, or let the probe go free. This is solved by just putting 3 lings on the pylon (add a drone there, or not) and 1 ling to chase the probe. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Excellent guide with tons of useful timings, scouting information and macro benchmarks. Kudos for putting it together, very thorough Glad you like it, but aren't you at a level where you already know all of this? I'm assuming all of the diamond+ knew all of this. Maybe the benchmarking section might have been useful? I don't know. Let me know what you learned when you post guys. And I can't be all-knowing, surely there is stuff out there that I could add that I am not aware of. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On March 13 2012 21:53 Host- wrote: I've typically gone 12p19h in ZvP, but I'm trying to change my ways to 14p16h. If you don't get the hatch down, how do you correctly follow it up? I currently do overlord, 4 lings, then double extractor trick to get the queen out. How should it be done, as that feels kind of 'funky'/ Personally, I go overlord immediately on 16 if I see a probe since I never count on getting that hatch down, I find one should always play with the idea that your opponent is playing well... blocking a hatchery is really easy, I'm not going to bank on my opponent failing. I still send a drone, more to force the pylon, obviously taking the hatch if I get the chance (overlord is just 100 minerals, it doesn't take long to get back to 300 if you get a shot at it), but I quite quickly decide if I'm not going to get the hatch and build my queen. Overlord shouldn't be far away, so I immediately get the lings. I'm pretty sure that if you do a measurement in economy, the difference isn't all that big between 16 hatch and 20 hatch, you're just switching the order of the hatch and the queen/lings, so I think that you could even go as far as to blindly build the queens and lings first, just to be safe. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Excellent guide with tons of useful timings, scouting information and macro benchmarks. Kudos for putting it together, very thorough Glad you like it, but aren't you at a level where you already know all of this? I'm assuming all of the diamond+ knew all of this. Maybe the benchmarking section might have been useful? I don't know. Let me know what you learned when you post guys. And I can't be all-knowing, surely there is stuff out there that I could add that I am not aware of. Belial88 thank you for creating this Guide! Allways searched for guide with scout timings + how to react to specific things! As is said you before, i vote Belial for Blueposts :D. Allways #1 posts with essential explanations. Cheers Thanks, but I don't think that will ever happen. Most blues hate me. I *am* a lower level person, so I say the wrong thing every now and then with, you know, my standard conviction, and they take it as me spreading misinformation maliciously, and when I explain myself, they take it that I'm explaining "The Correct Answer" as opposed to "Belial's Answer". I've been proven wrong many times here, and have been very open about when I've been wrong and changed (i used to say you should always hatch first in zvp because you can stop cannon rush, i used to say 11 pool was best zvp build for ladder due to patrol vs ramp block and timing vs gateway expand, i used to say hydras were worthless in every match up, et cetera). You'll notice a lack of blues ever posting in any of my guide threads. I think the ups know I'm a force for good and I try to behave, and that my mind is in the right place, but also don't like me. They seem to only post near me to say im a condescending dick. Which is understandable, I get frustrated when I see lower level players say wrong things too sometimes. But any higher level player who talks to me, usually gets where I'm coming from and doesn't have a problem, and I think I'm humble enough that I'll listen and admit I'm wrong when someone explains what's up to me. Some of them don't bother though. They just think that any time I make a point, or disagree on something, I'm 'arguing'. | ||
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
On March 13 2012 16:13 memcpy wrote: Without trying? Can you post a replay please, I'm vary curious. Here's a replay of me doing a very greedy and precise build by myself. At 8:00 I have: 1 larva, 65 drones, 2 lings, 9 overlords, 3 queens (Total: 78/78) 2 gas roach warren basically done +1 attack starting This is under ideal conditions where the the hatcheries do not get blocked and I only make 2 lings early. I'd like to see other players post their builds so I can compare. http://drop.sc/131085 Heres one of my more recent ZvP games, not the best but iv not been playing much recently. http://drop.sc/133255 Also not sure if you uploaded wrong replay but at 8:10, adding 10 seconds for the start, was more like 4 or so tbh, u were at 66 food without roach warren complete or +1 attack anywhere in sight. I dunno if its the wrong replay or a bug, the timer doesn't seem to work for me only the replay bar. | ||
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Advocado
Denmark994 Posts
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On March 13 2012 21:03 Belial88 wrote: I never said 70 drones, I said 70 supply. Also, 70 supply at 8:00 minute means you have like somewhere in the upper 50's of drones actually mining, and the rest of the supply taken up by morphing drones, as well as queens and random lings. The game I was talking about was Idra vs Oz on Dual Sight, but if you watch any of the DRG vs Genius finals he hit 70+ in all but one game (i think the one he didn't was daybreak). If you want to, sure, of course. I would even recommend it. I was just saying DONT get it if toss is doing a hardcore gateway all-in. Otherwise, do whatever you think is necessary. If someone is doing a sub-optimal bad play, and you react as if they were playing optimally, you will only end up ahead. That's like saying making roach/ling against a 4 gate is bad because Toss could theoretically just be going 4 gate expand. No. Toss goes 6 gate, you see no gas, so he won't ahve lots of sentries. Geysers take a while to warp in, and build up gas. So you get 1 gas, that's 30 seconds, then about another minute to basically get 1 sentry out. So it's like 2 minutes to get 2 sentries from 1 gas. So getting 2 gas late, as in past the 8:00 mark, means Toss won't have sentries for a long fucking time. He would've done better going 3 gas normal 5 gate sentry expand to third or something. So. You see 6 gate no gas. You make a ton of roach/ling. Toss can't possibly take his third, because he won't have enough sentries, and you will have a shitton of units. You will just fucking deny his third forever. He will have to wait forever. In the meantime, you are teching hard and fast to speed roaches, burrow, hydras, mutas, whatever, while taking a fourth base. And really, by taht point in the game, you've won. You can't really do any 'timing' with 6 gate besides when warp gate first finishes. If a 6 gate timing isn't going to work (assuming proper reaction from zerg) at the standard 8:30 mark, how is it possibly going to work at the 10:00 mark? Makes no sense. By then you'll have a tonof hydras. I don't really understand what you are saying. If toss is doing a sub-optimal build, you just end up ahead by responding as if he was playing optimally. If Toss is doing a no gas 6 gate that's really bad and late, you don't need an upgrade. So what you do is see no gas, so you know what's up, you don't get the upgrade. You mass roach/ling, make no lair. Then, you are at about 90-110 supply. You realize, hey, my army way fucking bigger now, I'd stomp him if he moves out, because my econ has kicked in, and he has no tech that can take advantage of my hatch tech. So then you tech up, and get upgrades, lair, speed, et cetera. For the same reason, you can't just 4 gate expand. You just die. Like you can't do it. For the same reasons, you can't just 6 gate no gas FFE and just play out. I don't know why you're harping that it's a supoptimal build; it's a build NonY brought up on SotG after IEM Gaungzhao and has used several times on ladder to great success. The has the regular timing with his orignal sentries where he has a lot of energy and he uses it for one timine where protoss has a lot of FF's and tries to snipe the third. Instead of doing the hardcore just warping in stalkers/zealots to try to kill the guy, he continues probing and takes the double gas as he leaves and doesn't over commit into the third. I know you like to argue, but perhaps you can admit that a low masters zerg doesn't know the game as well as NonY, so you might take his word for it? | ||
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stichlasser
69 Posts
I hit about something between 60 and 65 supply and here are some key points I noticed: 1. Hatch goes down at 16 (no pylon block). Whats the correct macro followup? a) 16 queen 18 overlord 18 lings b) 16 overlord 16 queen 18 lings c) 15 queen (followup?) 2. Which are the overlord steps? I find myself supplyblocked quite often at the early stages. Sometimes I got the feeling Im on point with my overlords but most times I end up having larvae that I cant use ... Should I just try to get overlords slightly earier? | ||
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On March 13 2012 18:32 Belial88 wrote: I made it pretty clear it's up to you when you want to take gas. I just stated that the 'standard' gas is 2 gas taken when third finishes, so if you want to, you can definitely go 1 gas much earlier, the 2nd gas much later, or take 3 gas later like DRG, or just 2 gas a bit earlier, or a bit earlier. You won't have speed out in time to deal with 1 zealot or 1 stalker pressure though, regardless, and if you were to get gas before third, that would just be too much. Getting 2 gas when third finishes around 6:00 should get you speed in time for 8:00 4 gate pressure though, or soon enough that slowlings or a spine or queen will buy that extra 10 more seconds for you. If you want to get gas earlier, it's up to you, but there are serious ramifications for doing so, and there's a reason pros wait as long as when third is up for 2 gas, or even later than that. I mean, delaying gas as much as possible is kind of the idea, and you really don't need gas for a long time anyways (even if it's 4 gate pressure you are talking about, it's still relatively late). And, this is a basic guide. You can tailor your third to what you scout. So if you see no gas taken, maybe you can get a single gas quicker to get speed out or fast roaches to deal with pressure and then just not take the 2nd gas for a super long time. For example, when I see doublegate before core, I throw down gas asap, like right when I plant third, if not sooner, so I can have speed against +1 double gate zealots (which you will crush with speedlings). I'm not challenging anything you wrote in your guide, I was adding guidelines knowledge and discussion for people who wanted to delay gas for a longer period of time. I guess my point is there is a relationship of number of lings built when scouting an early plus 1 in relative to the point in time when you take your gas. And these lings are purely to deny the proxy pylon. The start of +1 4gate pressure usually begins with 2 zealots and 1 stalker escorting a probe, and if you want to delay gas, I'm informing other users you have to know the timing to build enough lings to deny that pylon, or risk taking a lot of damage because roaches aren't quite ready yet. This is the center piece of information I was getting at. I was posting this for other users to discuss and learn from, not challenging your guide, or asking if you agree. I'm confident in my information. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
This thread is awesome. I found the history of drone saturation and maynarding very interesting. Also, the the structure of this guide is very easy to read. Looking forward to your next one! | ||
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On March 14 2012 04:41 stichlasser wrote: Okay, I tried that to concentrate on my macro while playing against a friend of mine. My macro sucks. Maybe not hardcore, but it sucks. I hit about something between 60 and 65 supply and here are some key points I noticed: 1. Hatch goes down at 16 (no pylon block). Whats the correct macro followup? a) 16 queen 18 overlord 18 lings b) 16 overlord 16 queen 18 lings c) 15 queen (followup?) 2. Which are the overlord steps? I find myself supplyblocked quite often at the early stages. Sometimes I got the feeling Im on point with my overlords but most times I end up having larvae that I cant use ... Should I just try to get overlords slightly earier? The way I prefer to follow up a non blocked 16hatch is: 4 lings right away to look for probe. This gives you 17/18. queue up a queen, then make and cancel an extractor (19/18) The rest as far as queen timings are really up to the player, you can decide to cut a queen for a period of time to in order to use all your droning capability right away, or you can get the queens earlier and have 2 creep tumors down to help with pushes and pressures. So the overlord numbers that are pretty easy to get down as I use them are: 19/18 24/28 32/38 38/46 45/54 Those are the super basic making drones overlord numbers, very conducive to constant and efficient drone production. | ||
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stichlasser
69 Posts
On March 14 2012 05:35 KhAmun wrote: The way I prefer to follow up a non blocked 16hatch is: 4 lings right away to look for probe. This gives you 17/18. queue up a queen, then make and cancel an extractor (19/18) The rest as far as queen timings are really up to the player, you can decide to cut a queen for a period of time to in order to use all your droning capability right away, or you can get the queens earlier and have 2 creep tumors down to help with pushes and pressures. So the overlord numbers that are pretty easy to get down as I use them are: 19/18 24/28 32/38 38/46 45/54 Those are the super basic making drones overlord numbers, very conducive to constant and efficient drone production. Thank you sir! I think if I can work out the basics better, i will have less trouble doing proper scouting and reacting =) | ||
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memcpy
United States459 Posts
On March 13 2012 21:48 TheGreenMachine wrote: About the maximum of 60 to 75 supply at 8:00 thing, i'm watching stephano's most recent vod vs whitera and realizing he hits that goal rather easily. http://www.twitch.tv/mstephano/b/311464161 Game starts at ~2:14:00 Stephano makes 6 lings (last 4 lings are a little later as a response to scouting zealot), has 3 queens, 1 creep tumor, 6:00 double gas, 7:00 evo+roach warren and is at 64 supply at 8:00. This is AFTER making a huge mistake of being supply blocked and way overmaking overlords. Also he went for lair with first 100 gas, then ling speed, and has barely enough for +1 or for roaches depending what he needs at 8:00. This is all the most standard of standard things so it would be a good benchmark. Ofcourse imagine if the didnt supply block himself for ~45 seconds then make 5 overlords in advance. I recommend people try playing vs the very easy AI and practice their ability to drone. Once they reach a goal then they should try their droning habits vs protoss opponents. Im also debating starting a thread about "Racing to 200/200" as a way to teach zergs to learn how to drone perfectly including build orders, optimized rally points/drone stacking, queen timings, ect. To be more relevant to actual gameplay, I want to add certain perameters like "6:00 double gas, 7:00 evo+roach". Would anyone be interested in that? I'd be really interested in a thread like that. There are a lot of protoss players who put on little to no pressure for the first 9-10 min of the game and it would be good to find some optimal 3 base build orders. Feel free to PM me if you want to talk about it some more. I have a build I've been working on and would like to share ideas. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On March 14 2012 04:41 stichlasser wrote: Okay, I tried that to concentrate on my macro while playing against a friend of mine. My macro sucks. Maybe not hardcore, but it sucks. I hit about something between 60 and 65 supply and here are some key points I noticed: 1. Hatch goes down at 16 (no pylon block). Whats the correct macro followup? a) 16 queen 18 overlord 18 lings b) 16 overlord 16 queen 18 lings c) 15 queen (followup?) 2. Which are the overlord steps? I find myself supplyblocked quite often at the early stages. Sometimes I got the feeling Im on point with my overlords but most times I end up having larvae that I cant use ... Should I just try to get overlords slightly earier? For your second point, try creating one overlord every time you inject. So if you inject two hatcheries at once, immediately build 2 overlords. This is far from optimal, but it's easy to remember and focus on. You'll see that you'll quickly run away in supply, so all you have to do then is scale it down, which you do by checking your supply every time you inject and estimating how many overlords you need. This will eventually give you all the tools you need for proper overlord attainment. Later, when you build roaches, one overlord per inject isn't even enough, so it's not as bad of a theory as it might sound. Early on though, you can skip an overlord some injects, which will be nice for your economy. | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
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memcpy
United States459 Posts
On March 14 2012 01:33 Iksf wrote: Heres one of my more recent ZvP games, not the best but iv not been playing much recently. http://drop.sc/133255 Also not sure if you uploaded wrong replay but at 8:10, adding 10 seconds for the start, was more like 4 or so tbh, u were at 66 food without roach warren complete or +1 attack anywhere in sight. I dunno if its the wrong replay or a bug, the timer doesn't seem to work for me only the replay bar. Ah, I see. I was using the SALT version of the map (the save/load one) in case I made a mistake so I wouldn't have to redo it. The extra replay time was because it pauses the game when you save but the overlay game timer showed 8:01. I think the reason it was so hard for me to get 75 supply was because I make the evo chamber and start my lair early, stephano style. | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
On March 14 2012 03:42 Arisen wrote: I don't know why you're harping that it's a supoptimal build; it's a build NonY brought up on SotG after IEM Gaungzhao and has used several times on ladder to great success. The has the regular timing with his orignal sentries where he has a lot of energy and he uses it for one timine where protoss has a lot of FF's and tries to snipe the third. Instead of doing the hardcore just warping in stalkers/zealots to try to kill the guy, he continues probing and takes the double gas as he leaves and doesn't over commit into the third. I know you like to argue, but perhaps you can admit that a low masters zerg doesn't know the game as well as NonY, so you might take his word for it? I mostly do it off 3gate now and it is very strong against zergs who have taken a 3rd going roach/ling. 6gate is still good against some zerg builds but it's pretty terrible against others and you've got no control over what they're doing, nor scouting to cut your losses and change builds at an early enough time. Another important point is that I play from 2gate or 3gate expand, not FFE. I don't think FFE can pressure a 3rd very safely. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On March 14 2012 06:55 Liquid`NonY wrote: I mostly do it off 3gate now and it is very strong against zergs who have taken a 3rd going roach/ling. 6gate is still good against some zerg builds but it's pretty terrible against others and you've got no control over what they're doing, nor scouting to cut your losses and change builds at an early enough time. Another important point is that I play from 2gate or 3gate expand, not FFE. I don't think FFE can pressure a 3rd very safely. Do you forsee the meta game going back to 3gate expand for that reason? Or perhaps more exciting FFE 4gates? | ||
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