EPT[G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvP! - Page 3
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
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Falcon-sw
United States324 Posts
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
On March 13 2012 15:26 Iksf wrote: Just think your a bit pessimistic about the benchmarking, im diamond and generally get 70-75 by 8:00 without specifically trying, really don't get how people could get below 60 without serious supply blocks. it happens pretty easily in a real game, if the toss does some early timing with zealots or something, the lings you get forced to make cut your drone count, you trade the lings for zealots, and end up at a supply deficit. but with this level of production even a minor supply block (5 sec or so) hurts pretty bad | ||
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memcpy
United States459 Posts
On March 13 2012 15:26 Iksf wrote: Just think your a bit pessimistic about the benchmarking, im diamond and generally get 70-75 by 8:00 without specifically trying, really don't get how people could get below 60 without serious supply blocks. Without trying? Can you post a replay please, I'm vary curious. Here's a replay of me doing a very greedy and precise build by myself. At 8:00 I have: 1 larva, 65 drones, 2 lings, 9 overlords, 3 queens (Total: 78/78) 2 gas roach warren basically done +1 attack starting This is under ideal conditions where the the hatcheries do not get blocked and I only make 2 lings early. I'd like to see other players post their builds so I can compare. http://drop.sc/131085 | ||
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
Good job Belial. | ||
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memcpy
United States459 Posts
On March 13 2012 16:18 KhAmun wrote: There seems to be a lot of negativity going on here, this is a really good guide that outlines extremely standard play at the highest levels of effectiveness. Good job Belial. Ya, this is a really nice guide. I've been doing pretty much this for a while, aside from the delayed lair. I like to get mine early so I can get roach speed and fast overseer scout but I'll consider delaying it since it may be costing me too many drones. | ||
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Cosmology
Canada360 Posts
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NoNonsense
Malaysia43 Posts
Regarding the +1 4 gate timing or even 4 gate timing(like MLG Winter Arena- DRG vs Naniwa G1), it is not likely that you will be able to hold your 3rd base with only lings. DRG place down a Roach Warren at 6:55, when the Naniwa started placing forward pylons aggressively. He still lost his third, but the good thing here was that he could morph another hatchery immediately, with the roach to hold off more pressure. Another point to note here was that Naniwa was basically telling DRG straight up that he was gonna 4 gate pressure with the timing of the pylons, and we see DRG's reaction to it. My personal reasoning of why roach warren is the best answer - 1) Roaches can be very very cost effective against zealot, and on creep, equal to stalkers. 2) Roaches are very larva efficient, even with losing your 3rd hatch you can still produce enough to hold off a strong pressure like what Naniwa did. (Very low probe count). Additionally extra larvae = more drones when you hold off the pressure.. Edit : Hit the Post button before i finished my post.  | ||
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NoNonsense
Malaysia43 Posts
1st queen --> inject main hatch --> move to natural --> inject natural --> creep tumour The reasoning behind it is probably that at that stage you can't spend all your larvae anyway. And an additional queen will cost 150 mineral + opportunity cost if you get it that early. | ||
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
This is a very good guide, I was looking for something like this. I've seen others, too, though, and they basically disagree with your evo timing saying 7min is far too late and also the roach warren should go down at 7minutes at the latest (stephano rarely throws that down any later because you can never know when those few pesky zealots are coming, and zerglings really don't cut it being larva heavy and ineffective.). Also what about spines? And, most importantly: you have three bases... so early spines to defend pressure seem to be inapproprite in any case because if you spine your third, he will go nat and vica versa, and you can't spine up both without being very seriously behind in the early stages. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On March 13 2012 18:06 Mahtasooma wrote: This is a very good guide, I was looking for something like this. I've seen others, too, though, and they basically disagree with your evo timing saying 7min is far too late and also the roach warren should go down at 7minutes at the latest (stephano rarely throws that down any later because you can never know when those few pesky zealots are coming, and zerglings really don't cut it being larva heavy and ineffective.). Also what about spines? And, most importantly: you have three bases... so early spines to defend pressure seem to be inapproprite in any case because if you spine your third, he will go nat and vica versa, and you can't spine up both without being very seriously behind in the early stages. Wrong, you are already way ahead in workers. Wasting 3-4 workers to become safe from a zealot rush is an amazing trade, and you need no more since you have queens as well. It's also pretty easy to scout a zealot timing coming and you don't need to build your spines early. If you see commital to zealot+1 attack, put down 2 spines at nat and third, then just keep droning, your opponent just gave you extra time to outrun his economy completely. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
If you wait for around 45 supply to take all three gas, a +1 4gate will hit a very vulnerable time in your build, so it's worth noting that when delaying gas and therefor roach warren for so long, one should have enough lings to repel the 2 zealot 1 stalker 1 probe poke that is the beginning of the pressure and escort for the proxy pylon of a +1 4gate. Denying that pylon is absolutely key, it buys time for speed and raoch tech to kick in. I made it pretty clear it's up to you when you want to take gas. I just stated that the 'standard' gas is 2 gas taken when third finishes, so if you want to, you can definitely go 1 gas much earlier, the 2nd gas much later, or take 3 gas later like DRG, or just 2 gas a bit earlier, or a bit earlier. You won't have speed out in time to deal with 1 zealot or 1 stalker pressure though, regardless, and if you were to get gas before third, that would just be too much. Getting 2 gas when third finishes around 6:00 should get you speed in time for 8:00 4 gate pressure though, or soon enough that slowlings or a spine or queen will buy that extra 10 more seconds for you. If you want to get gas earlier, it's up to you, but there are serious ramifications for doing so, and there's a reason pros wait as long as when third is up for 2 gas, or even later than that. I mean, delaying gas as much as possible is kind of the idea, and you really don't need gas for a long time anyways (even if it's 4 gate pressure you are talking about, it's still relatively late). And, this is a basic guide. You can tailor your third to what you scout. So if you see no gas taken, maybe you can get a single gas quicker to get speed out or fast roaches to deal with pressure and then just not take the 2nd gas for a super long time. For example, when I see doublegate before core, I throw down gas asap, like right when I plant third, if not sooner, so I can have speed against +1 double gate zealots (which you will crush with speedlings). for as much as i seen you post, you appear to come off pretty douchy. Just because I write good guides, does not mean I'm not a douchebag. However, am I really a douchebag? Or do I just have a lot of confidence in what I say, even if I may be wrong? I believe every choice you make in this game should have a reason, and that there is a 'solid' way to play. Now, obviously, we aren't all robots, but this is a forum, and basically everything here is theorycraft, so I think assuming 'standard' play is the correct thing to do when discussing the game (or, explain why substandard choices may be okay, like making a ton of speedlings is a gamble in ZvZ, but maybe it works against the natural intuition of zerg players so it works better in practice than theory, but you should state that). I state what I believe with full confidence, and from what I've observed. If I'm wrong, please, prove me wrong. I'd rather be a loudmouth saying incorrect shit, be proven wrong, and literally improve my game by 10% in 10 seconds, than be quiet and just keep doing the wrong shit over and over. That's how you improve as a player. I mean, if I really thought everything I said was 100% correct, I just wouldn't post at all here. I post here so some of the times, someone calls me out, and then I learn from it. I know this may sound a bit douchey, but I don't learn too much from reading stuff here, but I learn a lot from being called out, or from having assumptions that I'm not sure of, and going back to test them because someone on these forums challenged something I thought was just common sense and turns out to be wrong. Obviously, I learn from people here, but most people who are higher level than me (I'm mid-masters, so I'm talking high-masters+) never ever post on TL because they would rather spend their time playing and view TL like we view the starcraft2.com forums, so most of what I learn here is just being called out, or hashing unsure things out because me and someone I'm arguing with aren't 100% sure. That's just where I'm coming from. But still try to be a little less agro in general lol. I don't know what to say about that. I think 6 pooling is stupid. That's just my honest opinion on the matter, for example. I'm not going to change my honest opinion on the matter just because someone might take offense to it and would rather read "I feel that 6 pool is sub-optimal play, good sir". I mean, do you think "I don't agree with what he's doing" or "that guy was a fucking idiot" in your head? But I am kind of an asshole. My girlfriend tells me that all the time. You make good points but your soo angry sounding alot of the time I'm actually not an angry guy at all. I never get offended, in real life, in work, and in this game, nothing really pisses me off. I just don't take things personally at all. But I have a conviction and passion about what I believe in. When I have a point of view, I'm pretty extreme about it. Why bother believing something if you aren't passionate about it? Like, you can't be christian and not be all about christ right? Well, I think certain things about the game, because I feel like I have strong evidence and reasoning behind it. And it's got me this far (mid-masters, and I don't play much at all too, I work 70+ hours a week). I must be doing something right. | ||
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stichlasser
69 Posts
Great guide, that will be my way to diamond! | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Just think your a bit pessimistic about the benchmarking, im diamond and generally get 70-75 by 8:00 without specifically trying, really don't get how people could get below 60 without serious supply blocks. Good job! Believe me, you are doing much better than most people in diamond. Now work on those other issues you have  What I've been seeing as of late is some Pro's making a round of lings around 50 ish supply, which allows them to drone for longer as they can deny pylons, thus delaying the toss's build. How do you feel about this, and how many would you suggest making? That's interesting. I don't know. Provide a replay/vod where zerg did this and it benefited him. Damn Zerg is unforgiving on the macro side. Thanks for the info, I will use it to improve mine, which definitely needs a lot of work. I know right. How easy is it to just every 17 seconds, hit a button twice (for 2 bases, assuming an expand) and then every 29 seconds hit another button twice (chrono/mule). While T/P is definitely delayed if they make a pylon or depot a bit early, in their build, they can still constantly make workers. Zerg, on the other hand, ahve to hit that button literally every second because of how larva spawns so irregularly, especially with larva inject. With T/P there is a constant rate of production that increases linearly, so it's easier to forecast when to throw down depo/pylons. For Zerg, it's exponential, so it's much harder to foretell when to make overlords, and it's literally anytime you bank more than 50 minerals, it means you aren't producing workers when you should be. So much harder, in my opinion. I didn't realize how hard it was until I played with some GMs and they pointed out what a scrub I was because I never made workers. I was like... uhh.. I'm mid-masters and floating 90 average APM at the moment, what are you talking about? Sure enough, at like 30+ supply, I would go like 5-10 seconds where I just don't make workers, like constantly. It was weird when I first realized it. There seems to be a lot of negativity going on here, this is a really good guide that outlines extremely standard play at the highest levels of effectiveness. Good job Belial. Thanks! I expected a lot more criticism to come in regards to the scouting section, specifically the vagueness surrounding 3 gas. Great guide. Don't normally like your haughty know-it-all attitude, but this is a good contribution. My know it all attitude is not necessarily knowing it all. It's just how I see the game, and I have very strong convictions about how I see the game, because I feel every choice must have a reason behind it in this game. For Zerg, throwing down an evo chamber before 50 supply, for example, for no reason, is completely stupid and puts you behind, as harmless as it may seem. Of course, there may be reasons to put such an evo down, but have reasons, don't just put it down just to put it down. There's just a good an argument to not put it down, if you aren't sure what to do. So I don't presume to know everything, not at all. I just have beliefs about everything. I have an opinion about everything in the game, from the zerg perspective (i claim total ignorance to the most boring match-up of all, TvP). And I'm very much willing to be proven wrong. I've been proven wrong, and called out, plenty of times on this forum. Even my recent "Upgrades on Mutalisks" thread, I was called out, and proven wrong, and I happily admitted so. And that's why I post here. I say my shit, I lay it out, and hopefully, someone can prove me wrong on something, and then I learn from it and become a better player. If I really thought I knew it all, I wouldn't bother posting here, because I 'know it all'. Get it? I do understand my attitude may seem like I actually think I'm full of myself. But believe me, I'm not. I'm sure this may rub low masters or diamonds the wrong way, but as a mid-masters player, I think I'm a total fucking scrub. Like, I know I am. The difference between me and a high masters, is like diamond and bronze. Not even a well known high masters like tt1 could troll the fuck out of me with pure zealot all day, any 'random' top 8 masters could just make pure overseers and beat me 10 out of 10 games. I am completely aware of how shitty I am. Playing just a few games with high masters will convince you that right away if you aren't somewhat aware of it already. Like I play with some high masters and GMs. They will offrace on races they never play, play me in a best of 5, tell me what build they are doing, and beat me. That's how different mid masters to high masters is. Hell, I even played ZvZs with some people, they told me they were going to 6 pool, I hold it off well ahead of them, I expand, and I still lose the game to them. While they are offracing, too. So believe me when i say, I do not think I know everything. I just lay my shit out in the open, so people can see it, and call me out when I'm wrong, and then I can improve. I mean, how awesome is it that you can X league, be wrong on something, be called out on it, and then win like 1 game extra a day simply because you learn something you did was wrong. Pretty cool stuff. This is a very good guide, I was looking for something like this. I've seen others, too, though, and they basically disagree with your evo timing saying 7min is far too late and also the roach warren should go down at 7minutes at the latest (stephano rarely throws that down any later because you can never know when those few pesky zealots are coming, and zerglings really don't cut it being larva heavy and ineffective.). Also what about spines? And, most importantly: you have three bases... so early spines to defend pressure seem to be inapproprite in any case because if you spine your third, he will go nat and vica versa, and you can't spine up both without being very seriously behind in the early stages. I just said what was standard and what I've observed most pros do. you can obviously change it if your play gets to a higher level, you scout something that prompts you to do so. This is a basic guide, after all. However, I've never had spores come too late against any type of SG/DT play when going 7:00 evo (and I usually throw it a bit later than that, actually). As for fast roach warren, I feel you should at least scout something to prompt a faster warren. 7:00 as standard seems too low. Spines can be great, especially to buy time before your 'late' roach warren pops. I think spines are definitely amazing. But I thinhk they are best used to deal with warp gate pressure, not gateway pressure. As for what you said about toss going around - toss units are slow. The spine isn't necessarily meant to defend, it's meant to buy time. So toss goes to third, sees a spine, has to back off, and then head all the way around to nat. By that time, you should have units, or a spine at nat coming. You are just buying time with spines. For example, blink all-ins or sentry/immortal will get to a point where the army is large enough to smash through spines. But, getting 2 spines when the push arrives, is a great way to buy time for those hydras to pop out, to which you can push Toss back, hopefully all the way back home. | ||
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
I'm at 69 at 8:00 with a warren and evo up. Plat Zerg here. So... dunno. | ||
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frietjeman
Netherlands26 Posts
 .Also I actually like your attitude, I don't mind when people have confidence in what they say instead of trying to be 'politically correct' all the time... hope you understand what I mean. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Just testing a practice game vs Very Easy AI (but with fake scouting, going 11 Overpool with 6 Lings AND screwing up a drone rallypoint when nat was up). I'm at 69 at 8:00 with a warren and evo up. Plat Zerg here. So... dunno. Did you not read The Opening section at all? Why in the world would you go 11 overpool? It's a really, really shitty build. Also, 6 lings is wayyyyyyyyyyy too much. You should never, ever, ever make 6 lings. Like, ever, in ZvP. Except maybe against proxy doublegate, that's it. If your warren is actually up at 8:00, maybe you are making that warren up a bit too early. Also, were you ever supply blocked? Did you ever make an overlord, and when it finished, your supply was at or below where the cap was before the overlord popped (ie you made it too early)? Did you ever bank more than 100 gas before the 8:00 mark? Try again with this advice, and if you are still having trouble, post the replay. But 69 for plat is definitely fine. Pros often only hit 65 in tournament games when the pressure is on. But really, 11 overpool is the shittiest build ever. Don't ever do that build in ZvP. Really. Read The Opening section of the guide as to why. And making 6 lings is too much. You only make 4, and you are only making 4 because Protoss can throw down a proxy pylon and 2 lings+1drone won't kill it fast enough, you need 3 lings (however if you get that hatch off in front of the probe, then you can just make only 2 lings because there's no pylon you need to deal with). My problem with ZvP is scouting and understanding what I scout so I'll read this great guide of yours a couple of times and I should be fine . Also I actually like your attitude, I don't mind when people have confidence in what they say instead of trying to be 'politically correct' all the time... hope you understand what I mean. I do, thanks! | ||
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Jombozeus
China1014 Posts
Also for those saying they get 70 drones at the 8 minute mark, you won't be able to considering that you will lose overlords while saccing and you will be forced to make half a round of lings to kill scouting zealots. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Also for those saying they get 70 drones at the 8 minute mark, you won't be able to considering that you will lose overlords while saccing and you will be forced to make half a round of lings to kill scouting zealots. Even while losing overlords and making lings to deal with zealots, you can still get to 70+. On Dual Sight Idra vs Oz, Idra got to 70+ even after dealing with a cannon rush at his third. Obviously, that's idra though, and obviously, many of us can't hit 70+ in a real game, nor ever hope to consistently hit that, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a benchmark we should be striving for. If you can get past 60 supply, you should be good. If you are in the lower 50's in a real game, that's definitely a problem. | ||
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