I just ran into this on the ladder... a pretty strong bit of cheese that I'm surprised I haven't seen before.
As zerg, I went 15 hatch 15 pool.... terran puts down 1 rax and 1 maka rax, then sends three SCVs my way. The SCVs throw down three bunkers at 3:45 to wall off my expo's exit ramp.
I pulled all of my drones, threw down 2 spines, cranked out zerglings... but couldn't finish off the SCVs before bunkers started to finish. Once that happened, due to repair there's just no getting rid of them.
Seems really tough to counter unless you scout the SCVs coming, are aware that this walloff could happen, and either block the area with drones or get some of them outside of your base. I just didn't expect this wall and wasn't prepared for it in this game.
Yup. 50% of my ZvT's on Shakuras are this bullshit. Even if you stop one bunker from going down, 2 is enough to have a long enough wall for the marine to kill anything coming it's way. I haven't found a real way to stop it and losing your natural puts you too far behind to do anything off of one base in time to kill him. It's pretty lame.
This trick is very very known. I don't know how you didn't see it before, as you are a zerg. To counter thids you need spine crawler in range of the bunkers, but not to close to be off the range of the marines in the bunker. You can destroy one bunker before it finishes by pulling drones and zerglings and attack one bunker.
Its quite a strong strategy, its also quite common in pro play. I have seen people defend it via spine crawlers, they can out range bunkers. Checking your pic seems the spines was placed down too late, they was also too close to the bunkers so they would never be able to finish. You should make them behind your hatch and then unburrow them.
This strat is known for some time now and pretty hard to deal with as zerg. The trick is to not overcommit on zerglings as he is building the bunkers and after. Build a queen and about 3 spines out of range of the bunkers and try to delay him as long as possible with drones without losing them. After that pump only drones and start a third hatch above your mainramp. What many zergs don't realise ist that the terran is sacrificing very much eco for this attack so it's actually okay to lose your natural expo as long as he can't advance past your spines. After that he'll likely try to retreat as he can't continue repairing his bunkers against 3 spines. Congratulations... you're now ahead. Take your natural again and build up from there.
I also ran into an interesting cheese today too. This guy had 6 lings in my base before my spawning pool was even done. I'll have to watch the replay and see how he did it.
A) I always drone scout in all matchups if I don't see gas I just patrol a drone there to stop it from happening and if it comes up I pull all my drones but like two.
B) They go up. You need to start one queen in your main, four zerglings and make three spines and continue to make zerglings after that. Spread the creep towards your natural with your queen and place a spine on the high ground. Hit with thre spines on the same bunker to out-dps the repair. You might even need four spines to hold it.
It's strong, but with proper control you should defend with an advantage (not to big tho). I actually saw this used against nexus first in MLG winter arena I think.
On March 04 2012 19:46 thezanursic wrote: It's strong, but with proper control you should defend with an advantage (not to big tho). I actually saw this used against nexus first in MLG winter arena I think.
lol? If you dont die to this straight out than you should consider yourself lucky.
This isnt really a new thing, this has been around in TvZ for ages and I dont know how people have only just now taken note of this block.
On March 04 2012 19:33 BandonBanshee wrote: I also ran into an interesting cheese today too. This guy had 6 lings in my base before my spawning pool was even done. I'll have to watch the replay and see how he did it.
:p
I ran into this guy cheating. He had marines at my hatch so early although the walking distance would have been far too long?? And he didn't even have a rax in his main! I will report this to blizzard.
On March 04 2012 19:33 BandonBanshee wrote: I also ran into an interesting cheese today too. This guy had 6 lings in my base before my spawning pool was even done. I'll have to watch the replay and see how he did it.
:p
I ran into this guy cheating. He had marines at my hatch so early although the walking distance would have been far too long?? And he didn't even have a rax in his main! I will report this to blizzard.
Gosh same here I saw a completely new never seen before cheese today on ladder!! Played a protoss who blocked off the bottom of my ramp with 3 pylons and made two cannons behind it on the low ground! it left me soooo behind and without an expo!!! People are getting more and more creative with their cheese nowadays aren't they?
yes this strategy has been around a long time. One time i have seen it defended superbly is by Leenock against polt in game 8 of the blizzard cup group B. If you did not buy the blizzard cup ticket, here is what Leenock did: Leenock scouts around 10 supply, looks for proxy rax then goes to scout Polt's main, he sees one rax, then he goes 15 hatch 3 drones, then gas when at 150 minerals pool at 200 minerals drone to 17, then OL he sees the bunkers get planted down to block off the ramp as soon as pool finishes he gets baneling nest, queen at his natural and as many lings as possible and keeps drones on gas keep pumping lings at 150 gas make 6 banelings when they are done, send your queen at the bunkers first, with the banelings and lings right behind make sure to blow up your banelings between two of the bunkers so that two bunkers are destroyed, do not aim straight at one of the bunkers. then kill off last bunker be way ahead in the game :D
one thing i like about this build is that if there is no bunker rush, then it is still a good econ build, and instead of getting the baneling nest in response to the bunkers, you just play a normal game and save up your gas till you can get zergling speed. hope this helps
I figured this isn't something completely original considering that I'm seeing it from a random guy on the NA ladder... didn't know it was quite THAT old. I play a lot of games too, I guess it's just luck that I had never run into it before.
Rusty, I actually remember that game! I must not have been paying attention to see the placements of the bunkers and why they were so hard to prevent.
I just remember "hrm that's a lot of bunkers, wow it looks like Leenock is screwed" followed by "wow those are some fast banelings... WOW he actually saved the hatchery and broke out!"
cant you delay the bunker by blocking with a couple of drones while your other drones chase the marine?
should delay long enough to get spinecrawler and lings etc.
remember he's committed 300 minerals to the bunkers and 3 scv's, plus probably second rax before expansion... that's equal to having at least 7-8 drones off mining for 90 seconds.
On March 04 2012 21:52 shizna wrote: cant you delay the bunker by blocking with a couple of drones while your other drones chase the marine?
should delay long enough to get spinecrawler and lings etc.
remember he's committed 300 minerals to the bunkers and 3 scv's, plus probably second rax before expansion... that's equal to having at least 7-8 drones off mining for 90 seconds.
i always played this with 2 proxy racks. if i saw zerg is blocking me with drones i just expand immediately.
the time the bunkers are all staarted to build the zerg lost his natural, and in most cases the game, just because 1 marine behind the 3 bunkers is enough to defeat the zerg, and when the first bunker is rdy the zerg can leave.
imo the only way to defeat this strategy is a patroling drone at the place where the bunkers are going up, and pulled drones to chase scv and first marines
This thread made me morning lol, thanks. Well, the good news is you haven't had to deal with this at all since release, which is pretty damn lucky! As far as stopping it, your scout will get to his base before he is in a position to plant the bunkers. If you scout a wall, or scout no gas when you get into his base, put a drone to patrol at the top of your ramp and follow up with more drones if you see him coming with scvs. The drone patrol will buy you time and not allow him to get all 3 bunkers up, then just target fire the SCVs with couple drones and have the rest chase the scv GL!
I once played a terran you tried this. However, I saw 3 SCVs leave the base, so I sent two drones to block the main ramp (I wasn't aware you could bunker wall the natural ramp as well), and when the SCVs came, they lined up in the pre-set build positions, realized there were drones, and went back home.
He then spent the next 20 minutes building Thors. It's kind of funny to think that he does stuff like that so much, he had no idea how to actually play out the game.
On March 04 2012 23:23 foxj wrote: 2rax pressure open and u guys Z called it cheese QQ ?
remember he's committed 300 minerals to the bunkers and 3 scv's
Terran can savage the bunkers if the rush fail and fall back while having the CC. Not really committed 300 minerals but 75 minerals
75 per bunker, so 75*3=225. And if terran does this his CC will be delayed by a considerable amount of time.
Your math is a bit off. A bunker costs 100 to start but you get 75 back for cancel or salvage. So the real cost is only 25 per bunker, totaling the 75 mineral commitment. Unless the Zerg is well prepare for this build, the terran can often get away with it just by forcing units, and psychologically attacking the mental state of the Zerg with what appears to be a major cheesy commitment. When in reality, the Terran is not that far behind at all, considering its just a two rax pressure expand build. Forcing units and causing the Zerg to panic and possibly forget things such as upgrades or overlords is worth the 75 minerals.
On March 04 2012 23:23 foxj wrote: 2rax pressure open and u guys Z called it cheese QQ ?
remember he's committed 300 minerals to the bunkers and 3 scv's
Terran can savage the bunkers if the rush fail and fall back while having the CC. Not really committed 300 minerals but 75 minerals
75 per bunker, so 75*3=225. And if terran does this his CC will be delayed by a considerable amount of time.
Your math is a bit off. A bunker costs 100 to start but you get 75 back for cancel or salvage. So the real cost is only 25 per bunker, totaling the 75 mineral commitment. Unless the Zerg is well prepare for this build, the terran can often get away with it just by forcing units, and psychologically attacking the mental state of the Zerg with what appears to be a major cheesy commitment. When in reality, the Terran is not that far behind at all, considering its just a two rax pressure expand build. Forcing units and causing the Zerg to panic and possibly forget things such as upgrades or overlords is worth the 75 minerals.
The point is that 300 minerals will delay the Terran's CC by a good bit, not the mention the lost mining time by sending out 3 SCVs. If Zerg defends well and keeps his head, he will not be behind.
Destiny recently ran into this on NA ladder, lost his hatch, but still managed to crush his oppoenent because he didn't lose drones and defended w/ 3 spines.
On March 04 2012 23:23 foxj wrote: 2rax pressure open and u guys Z called it cheese QQ ?
remember he's committed 300 minerals to the bunkers and 3 scv's
Terran can savage the bunkers if the rush fail and fall back while having the CC. Not really committed 300 minerals but 75 minerals
75 per bunker, so 75*3=225. And if terran does this his CC will be delayed by a considerable amount of time.
Your math is a bit off. A bunker costs 100 to start but you get 75 back for cancel or salvage. So the real cost is only 25 per bunker, totaling the 75 mineral commitment. Unless the Zerg is well prepare for this build, the terran can often get away with it just by forcing units, and psychologically attacking the mental state of the Zerg with what appears to be a major cheesy commitment. When in reality, the Terran is not that far behind at all, considering its just a two rax pressure expand build. Forcing units and causing the Zerg to panic and possibly forget things such as upgrades or overlords is worth the 75 minerals.
The point is that 300 minerals will delay the Terran's CC by a good bit, not the mention the lost mining time by sending out 3 SCVs. If Zerg defends well and keeps his head, he will not be behind.
Z have to pull more drones to counter against the 3 scvs bunker. And if the entrance get blocked, Terran will just retreat his force. I think its a normal open for T not cheese or allin stuff but it doest work on all maps
On March 04 2012 22:11 Bommes wrote: I'm pretty sure this works on Tal'darim too actually.
Only takes two, and is a fucking awesome dream. If my 12 scout and 13 scout (12/12 rax ya know) scout like 15 seconds behind eachother, one goes in and scouts pool not done, go back to nat, and i double bunker their choke and go about my business. Usually I cancel at like 35-50% health just for a delay on them transferring drones, and a queen/ling pull.
Can't you just patrol a drone to stop the bunkers from being placed down while you get zerglings and spinecrawlers? Doesn't seem like it would be that difficult to me.
kinda old... take a drone to scout and when u see scvs coming, micro the drone above the ramp to buy time and troll the scvs. A bit micro intensive but the terran gets kinda fucked.
Yea I think I saw Select do this in a replay from last june or something; as people have said, nothing new
however, most people have been talking a lot about how to prevent the bunkers from going up, and actually a lot of times you can still win, even if they kill your hatch. Yes bunkers can be salvaged but it makes the terran expo even later. you should watch the replay and realize how little he has in his base. I've seen select triple bunker like this, kill off the hatch, expanding and trying to play normal, and then dying. Ling bling counters are really hard to deal with for someone who doesn't go crazy with bunkers.
-it feels like you're behind anytime you lose the hatch, but in reality it's not always the case.
Basicly if wall goes on you can do few things, i prefer those 2 the most as i've got the best resoult with em:
a) build 2 spines and queen at natural, and agree to lose hatch (spines wont be there really to kill bunkers, but to keep his scv's repairing em and prevent runby with marines when hatch is down), if he tries to runby block ramp with queen, place tumor when natural dies and retake natural when you can,
b) try to break contain with banelings. for this you need place banelings nest right after your spawning pool is done (obiously before speed), tank some dmg with queen and try to destroy 2 side bunkers with banelings and let your lings (which you need to keep pumping) finish rest. i usually keep drones on gas till i have for speed then take em back and proceed from there, as its highly unlikly terran will try to follow this up with more agression seeing you have so early banes.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Quly1.jpg)
