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On February 26 2012 08:27 Facultyadjutant wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2012 06:20 avilo wrote:On February 26 2012 05:48 Facultyadjutant wrote:
From a zerg pov Its easily countered by mass muta and just expand, basically everywhere - Its like playing mech but you can expand even more. I still just don't see it viable @.@ - Ravens as an opener feels so off, its lovely late game but against competent zergs it should be shut down insanely hard.
You just can't pressure multiple hatcheries from zergs of what I have seen My guide is not a "raven build" nor a "raven opener" it's just describing raven usage in lategame tvz whether you opened bio or mech or what not and how to use them against infestor/brood/corruptor and tech switches. There is no such thing as a "raven build" in terms of opening with mass ravens...and that indeed would be a horrible build. Ravens are a unit you add later on in the game aka transition to. You do not start off the game with ravens being your entire army. Yes, there are some literal builds that center around getting a raven early, like in TvP/TvT, that's not what this guide is about. Oh my mistake, I was so caught up in what you were doing on ladder where you opened 2 starport w/ techlab For efforts in furthering ravens lategame tvz I applaud and couldn't agree more in its strength
If you read the actual title or ANY of the contents of the OP, you would have known this from the start.
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I guess I'm looking forward to see raven nerf in the next patch.
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oh righttt I totally forgot about ravens HSM
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On February 25 2012 14:53 architecture wrote:
Let me throw in some math to clarify the efficiency of Ravens.
PDD is best against high damage units. They are the best against vikings, when a single PDD blocks 560 damage. So Raven is better than a BC in TvT. Unfortunately, corruptors are low damage, high HP units, so a PDD only blocks 280 damage.
So for 200 gas and 1m45s (1m build time + 45s energy accum) you only block 280 damage, without dealing damage. I think it's clear that PDD is not particularly efficient use of resources. It takes a whopping THREE minutes to get another PDD. Now, if the Z does let you accumulate enough for 2 PDDs on a Raven, then the Raven will represent essentially 4 food. In either case, not anything to write home about.
Now let's talk about HSM. HSM is actually passably decent and the only redeeming spell in this matchup, despite ridiculous cost+time. So while it takes 2.5m to get a HSM, for the FOOD, it does a good amount of damage, more than you would expect a viking to do. Imagine a HSM doing about 200 damage through AOE, a viking would have to get off 10 shots or survive 20s to do so. HSM is all frontloaded damage, that allows you to clean up with thors. Some number of Ravens with HSM will make it so that manythor+fewviking can deal with any air threat.
And like you said, it frees up the rest of the ground army + simcity to deal with infestor/ultra.
PDD is better vs Corrupters than Vikings. Vikings fire 2 x 12dmg, Corrupter is 1 x 20dmg. So A PDD would absord 240 Viking damage but 20 x 20 = 400 Corrupter damage.
Edit:
Corrupter damage is 14 +6 to massive. So a PDD would absorb 280dmg.
Vikings are 10 +4 to armored x 2. So a PDD would absorb 280 damage, the same as Corrupters. So PDD has the same effeciency vs both.
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On February 25 2012 20:05 maracuja wrote:
You simply just can not defeat ultra/ling with about 50 supply in ravens and vikings, which you need to prevent the zerg from getting back air control.
Autoturrets vs 3/3 ultras? Come on.
Isn't the point of the ravens that you won't need 50 supply of Vikings and Ravens?
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Ravens are useful there is no doubt... but securing that many bases for the gas is unlikely to happen against a decent zerg. This strategy is very viable when the maps are split and the Z becomes immobile. I just go for a 3 base timing before they get BL with marine tank thor.
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1.4.4: Raven food cost increased from 2 to 3.
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Ravens shine vs players that go for infestors. HSM 1-shots an infestor and detection is good against burrowed infestors.
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More replays post patch would be nice, hopefully something similar is possible in TvP, yet the hopes are low..
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On February 26 2012 00:09 joeschmo wrote:
For a strategy to be viable, it must work at the top level of play. The NA Grandmaster league is not the top level. GSL Code S is the top level. Sure, Mech might work vs Protoss at the Silver league, we wouldn't consider it viable though. I'm not impressed with the Zerg competition either, maybe go on the Korean ladder and practice it. The strategy itself shows promise & it would be fortunate if it worked out.
MorroW raped the crap out of Leenock with HSM on Metropolis
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You can cc first into gas before barracks vs gm zergs?
How do handle early agression, or punish super greedy play?
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O look, terran finds another unit that they considered horrible but turns out to be viable all along after being forced to adapt. Always knew that ravens had a place in the terran death ball. Don't know whether to enjoy the "I told you so" or to quit sc2 for good at the new influx of raven play bs that I can't scout and but still have to deal with.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On February 28 2012 01:13 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
O look, terran finds another unit that they considered horrible but turns out to be viable all along after being forced to adapt. Always knew that ravens had a place in the terran death ball. Don't know whether to enjoy the "I told you so" or to quit sc2 for good at the new influx of raven play bs that I can't scout and but still have to deal with.
You really think you would be able to scout a Raven transition? Of all possible ways to whine about Raven play (which is silly in itself) saying that it un scoutable is unbelievably stupid.
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On February 28 2012 01:13 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
O look, terran finds another unit that they considered horrible but turns out to be viable all along after being forced to adapt. Always knew that ravens had a place in the terran death ball. Don't know whether to enjoy the "I told you so" or to quit sc2 for good at the new influx of raven play bs that I can't scout and but still have to deal with.
Haha I also thought that was funny. Unfortunately though I think its just going to even further steepen the terran "mastery curve".
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On February 27 2012 05:34 StimFesT wrote:
Ravens shine vs players that go for infestors. HSM 1-shots an infestor and detection is good against burrowed infestors.
Yes, assuming he does not use the 9 range fungal against the 6 range HSM.
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Great post Avilo! Will watch the replays ASAP.
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Great write-up avilo, I will definatly be watching the replays and trying this out soon!
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@ avilo
i watched your stream a few times the last days and recognized that you go for fast banshees and directly into raven and not directly into mech.
Why don't you do a "normal" mech opener and after this into mech and then add the raven? I don't like the raven so early and go for the mech army first..do you think that the raven play isn't possible then?
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This is Awesome Avilo. I started monobattles to start mastering shift clicking HSMs and PDDs with the Raven. I think the excess gas that tends to build up in TvZ can now be utilized.
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EPT
