EPTOr is it only feasible with pure mech builds. Maybe someone that watched the MLG Winter games today can clarify if the Terran players that meched did pure mech from the start.
[G] Avilo's TvZ Lategame Raven Transition - Page 2
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architecture
United States643 Posts
Or is it only feasible with pure mech builds. Maybe someone that watched the MLG Winter games today can clarify if the Terran players that meched did pure mech from the start. | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
But, and this is a serious suggestion, you don't need the ever so slightly whiny history lesson at the start to be that long. Just say that the ghost is no longer the answer and get on with it. | ||
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Sluggy
United States128 Posts
Have you found if there is ever a reason to have less marauder/tank and mix in banshee/battlecruiser or is the infrastructure (and build times) required for that too hard to get to until the game has probably been decided? | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
You don't really need the DPS of vikings if you can land your HSM's and it saves you on supply too. Also I found that against mutas, you should be pretty safe especially if you have +2 building armor and can throw down a PDD or you can even throw down auto turrets and a PDD in a pinch. Combo this with a strong straight push and you can easily catch zerg off guard and kill their whole ground army. In the middle of the map, you can also PDD on top of your tanks to counter muta 1 shots on your tanks against a mid game zerg army rolling in. If the zerg can't alpha your tanks, you can sometimes target fire every single baneling which means you win with your surviving marines. Also, if the map has tight lanes then you can do my old mid-game turret crawl against lings, blings, and whatever. But I digress, those are the mid-game raven tricks. Late game, if you can horde enough ravens, its GG. They are the hardest caster to kill and if you have more than 10, then you can pretty much non-stop auto turret the whole map. Write your name for fun. | ||
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Cramsy
Australia1100 Posts
On February 25 2012 14:57 Resistentialism wrote: Nice guide. But, and this is a serious suggestion, you don't need the ever so slightly whiny history lesson at the start to be that long. Just say that the ghost is no longer the answer and get on with it. I think he does need it. It's annoying to play with all these new play styles and just have them nerfed instead of the metagame sorting them out. | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
In all seriousness tho I've been fearing the implementation of the raven, I suppose the time has come. | ||
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KJSharp
United States84 Posts
I appreciate your guide. It was very thorough and explained one way that Terrans can deal with Zerg late game. There is one thing which you briefly touched on but the implications of which you left untouched - the high APM and micro intensive aspect. What this means, then, is that only Masters and above can do it successfully. I am a diamond Terran, so though I have good macro and good micro, I am afraid that I will be unable to make this a viable strategy for me. What do you recommend to us Terrans who are Diamond and below? How can we beat our diamond zerg friends who do this exact same strategy? I am having immense trouble defeating them. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On February 25 2012 12:11 tjd2191 wrote: So much respect for your hard work avilo. While we all know that you make very vocal criticisms of the game, stuff like this shows that you do truly care a lot. This. Great guide, I guess Terrans will just have to use over 9000 APM in big battles in TvP and TvZ. Oh well, not like we aren't used to being owned in late-game. Also, VoD's not working for me on chrome for some reason. | ||
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maracuja
Germany22 Posts
Autoturrets vs 3/3 ultras? Come on. | ||
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cleansingpak
Pakistan4 Posts
I think you've covered all the bases but didn't talk about neural....it may seem noobish on my part since i'm bronze but isn't neural a good weapon against HSM's...what if the zerg player's infestors neural parasite your raven and uses the HSM on your raven/viking clump to seriously weaken your anti-air?You are already making less vikings than usual but if even 1/2 HSM lands on your air fleet than it would hurt badly.........Or do you rely on ghosts to emp all the infestors which is a bit risky considering the fact that they are very fat+emp's small radius now+infestors don't clump much=infestors survive your emp carpet...... And thanks for your efforts to help the struggling terrans.....keep the youtube videos of tvx discussion coming  | ||
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RooStaR
United States58 Posts
I could easily see Zergs using the Nydus worm to abuse the Ravens lack of mobility. Of course, Zergs should be using the nydus worm more anyway to, as already mentioned, abuse slow moving units or just to get from one expansion to another with slower units. | ||
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TheQforce
United Kingdom48 Posts
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Audemed
United States893 Posts
Good post though, I've always wanted to see more ppl use ravens, maybe this will get their attention. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
On February 25 2012 21:54 TheQforce wrote: While i don't doubt that this will be able to kill zerg lategame it seems to be as fragile as marauder hellion where, if you lose one group of units, the other group is almost useless Well both Zerg, Protoss, and Terran already have these issues already with their aoe units. | ||
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Elldar
Sweden287 Posts
Watched some games from the replay pack though and I am not that impressed. Every game the zerg does no have any solid aggression that denies your third or delaying. Has not looked at all games but a good chunk and it was pretty much the same you take three bases tech to your mech army,then start taking the map while the zerg sits passive, then lose since mech is super cost effective. Any good zerg would know to put pressure on against mech and start to deny fourth bases and so on. However this style might have validity to it but as your strat plans out now it will lose to better zerg, you won't have the luxury to go tank/thor/hellion/viking/ghost/raven against all zerg and if the zerg early on start trading, you can't start replacing with that composition since you will get gas limited. Something need to go imo, probably ghost if you go mech since mech don't suffer that badly from fungals if you not catch siege tanks unsieged. And siege tanks can target down the infestor if they get to close. You really need your composition for the midgame clear. Will you go thor/hellion then later on add tanks or tank hellion with turret support, and so on. I am purely thinking of the economy aspects of the build, with constant production and clean transition you can not afford everything you get. If you go bio I can see that you might wanna mix in ghosts, but I am not sold on that idea if you go raven/viking to combat b-lords. Ghost has a to specific roll in your composition imo too emp infestor, the nukes is cool but not game winning and basically is a slower hsm. | ||
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
what should in your experience the maximum of ravens? | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 25 2012 23:11 Elldar wrote: Except the balance whining it was a good thread. Agreed, I like the concept but I also wouldn't call it "Avilo's" late-game raven transition, I'm certain there have been others with much the same thought-process. EDIT: Starting to like the late game raven more and more  | ||
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puissance
97 Posts
As the post above, I think it doenst fit to both Bio-Mech and pure Mech play. Pure Mech is too gas intensive to allow the addition of mass Raven. On the other hand, playing standard Bio Mech in the midgame and later transition more into pure Bio with some Mech units, Ghosts, Vikings and all the excess gas in Ravens looks feasible. Bio allows for has additional advantages, it allows to handle Ultra transitions easily via Marauders and enables mass drop play, which is very strong against Hive Zerg. In the very lategame Ravens replace Siege Tanks (ground) and Thors (light air) as splash damage unit, which can handle both types at same time and provides and answer to armored air units. If going Mech its seems stronger to delay / push before Hive and going mass Thor with follow-Hellions (Broodlord) / buffer Hellions / (Ultra) and a fixed number of Siege Tanks and Vikings. Its all about gas allocation really.. | ||
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OmegaKnetus
Germany431 Posts
On February 25 2012 23:11 Elldar wrote: Except the balance whining it was a good thread. Watched some games from the replay pack though and I am not that impressed. Every game the zerg does no have any solid aggression that denies your third or delaying. Has not looked at all games but a good chunk and it was pretty much the same you take three bases tech to your mech army,then start taking the map while the zerg sits passive, then lose since mech is super cost effective. Any good zerg would know to put pressure on against mech and start to deny fourth bases and so on. However this style might have validity to it but as your strat plans out now it will lose to better zerg, you won't have the luxury to go tank/thor/hellion/viking/ghost/raven against all zerg and if the zerg early on start trading, you can't start replacing with that composition since you will get gas limited. Something need to go imo, probably ghost if you go mech since mech don't suffer that badly from fungals if you not catch siege tanks unsieged. And siege tanks can target down the infestor if they get to close. You really need your composition for the midgame clear. Will you go thor/hellion then later on add tanks or tank hellion with turret support, and so on. I am purely thinking of the economy aspects of the build, with constant production and clean transition you can not afford everything you get. If you go bio I can see that you might wanna mix in ghosts, but I am not sold on that idea if you go raven/viking to combat b-lords. Ghost has a to specific roll in your composition imo too emp infestor, the nukes is cool but not game winning and basically is a slower hsm. you know avilo was top ten gm league last time i checked, how much better should the zergs be? And even if some korean uberhuman could waste this playstyle, why care about it, you'll never get to that level anyways. As for my own experience, i've been using this for some time now (I'm a regular on Avilo'S stream, so I saw this style in action some time before) and i've had pretty good results with a mech into ravens. You just have to scout and react accordingly and you're pretty much safe. Even though in my opinion, avilo'S cc first into banshees is a bit too greedy and unsafe, I prefer a normal reactor helion expand with a blueflame or siege follow up | ||
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