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[G] Avilo's TvZ Lategame Raven Transition - Page 6
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Phays
Sweden162 Posts
thanks! | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
Kiting back Mutas and dropping 2 HSMs can decimate TONS of mutas, which ball up. Auto Turrets also present a counter attacking option to impose yourself on Zerg's expos. | ||
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dohgg
310 Posts
How do u counter hive? You dont let them get hive! or even when they get it.. you already far ahead..if you're not.. then maybe the zerg deserve the win? | ||
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Exstasy
United Kingdom393 Posts
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Xku
United States3 Posts
On February 28 2012 07:55 dohgg wrote: why playing the most fun MU in sc2 in such a camping way "I m gonna mass my deathball" style? How do u counter hive? You dont let them get hive! or even when they get it.. you already far ahead..if you're not.. then maybe the zerg deserve the win? There should be a viable way for Terran to win the game if zerg gets to hive tech. It'd be bad game design if a certain race couldn't beat a certain race past a certain mark of devlopment. Of course TvZ lategame is going to favor zerg without the ghosts but in the end Terran should still have a fighting chance with Ravens imo. Good writeup Avilo. As far as upgrades go, what do you think of going marine tank with double armory and getting the ship weapons/armor in the background along with your tank upgrades if you're already planning to go Ravens? | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On February 27 2012 19:00 Everlong wrote: More replays post patch would be nice, hopefully something similar is possible in TvP, yet the hopes are low.. Here is another example game from today, this one I went biomech vs infestor/roach and as the game went on I timed the raven transition parallel to Zerg's broodlord/corruptor transition. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=255969 Just a good example that it does not matter if you went bio or mech, transitioning to ravens works with both styles really well. And mass ravens is not good TvP because of feedback. BCS are much better if you are going for air. On February 28 2012 02:13 Mowr wrote: Yes, assuming he does not use the 9 range fungal against the 6 range HSM. Like I wrote in the guide, it takes practice to start utilizing ravens well, because you usually are going to have to have some ghosts at that point in the game as well to EMP infestors as much as possible, or snipe infestor with other units or simultaneous movement forward with mech/bio so you are not chain fungaled. On February 27 2012 05:34 StimFesT wrote: Ravens shine vs players that go for infestors. HSM 1-shots an infestor and detection is good against burrowed infestors. Eh, you 99% of the time should not be attempting to HSM infestors, if you do you're going to end up getting ravens chain fungaled and lose them all. EMP is for infestors, HSM/PDD is for brood/corruptors. Only HSM infestors if you see 99% of them have no energy remaining or something. Also people saying autoturrets are bad against ultras...the point is you can throw auto turrets out in front of your mech, or mass marauder/marine and it can give your army an extra 1-2 seconds to get volleys off on their ultras/roaches...and you do the math of what an extra volley from 15+ tanks is or mass marauder/marines...that slight extra time you get that the roaches/ultras are hitting those means you kill so much more. So ravens are still useful in those scenarios. | ||
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drybones
United States69 Posts
mine so far is: 1) MMM 2) tanks 3) ghosts where do viking/raven come in. unfortunately for what I am used to I have hokeys 4-7 on buildings. Its a shame too because now terrans have to control 4+ different spells during a fight (stim, emp/snipe, seige, and now auto turret/hsm/pdd) when zergs only have to control 1 (fungal) with the rest being army control which terran has to do in spreading out and arranging. all i am wondering is are you on 4 separate army hotkeys or is there some other logical ordering that I am missing? | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On February 28 2012 09:35 avilo wrote: Eh, you 99% of the time should not be attempting to HSM infestors, if you do you're going to end up getting ravens chain fungaled and lose them all. EMP is for infestors, HSM/PDD is for brood/corruptors. Only HSM infestors if you see 99% of them have no energy remaining or something. This problem is solved by micro. Your ravens should be parked outside of infestor range, and then either some spread out units should move in, or turrets need to be laid down in the direction of the infestors at the same time as you target a few of the infestors with SM. Your ravens will fan out and become unmanageable by fungal. You should certainly not do this if he has only like 4 infestors, or if there's a good chance your crap is going to get stomped on by whatever army. You should also not do this at some place where the turrets will not kill anything or control any relevant space once he backs off. Other than that, Ravens are actually quite nice against infestors with micro. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On February 28 2012 09:35 avilo wrote: Also people saying autoturrets are bad against ultras...the point is you can throw auto turrets out in front of your mech, or mass marauder/marine and it can give your army an extra 1-2 seconds to get volleys off on their ultras/roaches...and you do the math of what an extra volley from 15+ tanks is or mass marauder/marines...that slight extra time you get that the roaches/ultras are hitting those means you kill so much more. So ravens are still useful in those scenarios. As a zerg who had this done on me, I 100% emphasize this point. If you place them well they mess up the ultralisk AI (which as everybody knows is already top notch) and you have to kill them before going on or only the lings filter through and the ultralisks try to derp around. Now killing autoturrets when on ultra ling bane takes 1 second, but 1 second more for 10+ tanks to shoot on your army is huge. Edit : If you're lucky/the zerg messes up you can get some banelings to detonate as well. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On February 28 2012 18:51 NeonFox wrote: As a zerg who had this done on me, I 100% emphasize this point. If you place them well they mess up the ultralisk AI (which as everybody knows is already top notch) and you have to kill them before going on or only the lings filter through and the ultralisks try to derp around. Now killing autoturrets when on ultra ling bane takes 1 second, but 1 second more for 10+ tanks to shoot on your army is huge. Edit : If you're lucky/the zerg messes up you can get some banelings to detonate as well. Well turret fields can basically hard counter ling/bling by attriting raven energy for min/gas (IE, trading potential PDD and HSM for Minerals and Gas). I went over this in my marine/raven thing 2 years ago. The only thing turrets are crap against are BLs, Infested Terran Spam, and Roaches (burst damage). They aren't bad vs ultra if you have a source of DPS while they are stuck in the turrets though HSM might be more useful against giant clumps of them. If the zerg move orders through and you are good with turret placement, you can super clump their units and they become tank food nom nom nom. | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On February 29 2012 00:50 Antisocialmunky wrote: The only thing turrets are crap against are BLs, Infested Terran Spam, and Roaches (burst damage). You're totally right about roaches and BL's, but auto turrets trade pretty decently with ITs for energy. The range combined with the hatch time means the auto turrets either get a huge head start killing the eggs, or the ITs have to slowly shamble into range, and get eaten up. You'll usually even see 0 ranged attack upgrades vs the upgraded building armor, so the turrets do really well for cost. Good God though, turrets are terrible against roaches. | ||
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Genome852
United States979 Posts
But yeah, I think if you manage to keep them alive for a very long time they'd pay off really well. Turrets behind minerals are especially annoying for zergs to deal with especially with drops at the same time. On February 28 2012 07:55 dohgg wrote: why playing the most fun MU in sc2 in such a camping way "I m gonna mass my deathball" style? How do u counter hive? You dont let them get hive! or even when they get it.. you already far ahead..if you're not.. then maybe the zerg deserve the win? So the zerg deserves to win the second they get hive? That doesn't make much sense to me. Then again I think every race should be equally powerful in early/mid/late game as opposed to the way it is now. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On February 28 2012 11:15 drybones wrote: my question is how to you organize your army hotkeys once ravens are introduced? mine so far is: 1) MMM 2) tanks 3) ghosts where do viking/raven come in. unfortunately for what I am used to I have hokeys 4-7 on buildings. Its a shame too because now terrans have to control 4+ different spells during a fight (stim, emp/snipe, seige, and now auto turret/hsm/pdd) when zergs only have to control 1 (fungal) with the rest being army control which terran has to do in spreading out and arranging. all i am wondering is are you on 4 separate army hotkeys or is there some other logical ordering that I am missing? This is a good question. Traditionally, I got accustomed to putting my OC on both 3 and 7, so that later in the game, I could use: 1- for MMM 2- for ghosts 3- for ravens However, had I gone mech, I would put tanks/mech, on 1 and maintain the other hotkeys. Note* It's important to have OC on another hotkey, obviously for mules, but also for scanning terran army position, scans for Dts when ravens are out of position. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On February 28 2012 18:20 LavaLava wrote: This problem is solved by micro. Your ravens should be parked outside of infestor range, and then either some spread out units should move in, or turrets need to be laid down in the direction of the infestors at the same time as you target a few of the infestors with SM. Your ravens will fan out and become unmanageable by fungal. You should certainly not do this if he has only like 4 infestors, or if there's a good chance your crap is going to get stomped on by whatever army. You should also not do this at some place where the turrets will not kill anything or control any relevant space once he backs off. Other than that, Ravens are actually quite nice against infestors with micro. I disagree here, and would have to agree with Avilo. Fungal actually has a pretty large range, given the large AoE. If you are planning to go mech and ravens against a competent zerg player (GM), you're probably going to be limited to 3 bases and only 6 gas. This means that each Raven is hugely important. In my experience (1219 pt Terran last season), it's very easy for Zerg to fungal stray ravens even if you have seiged tanks behind them. Like I said, you'd be surprised how long that range is. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On February 29 2012 00:50 Antisocialmunky wrote: Well turret fields can basically hard counter ling/bling by attriting raven energy for min/gas (IE, trading potential PDD and HSM for Minerals and Gas). I went over this in my marine/raven thing 2 years ago. The only thing turrets are crap against are BLs, Infested Terran Spam, and Roaches (burst damage). They aren't bad vs ultra if you have a source of DPS while they are stuck in the turrets though HSM might be more useful against giant clumps of them. If the zerg move orders through and you are good with turret placement, you can super clump their units and they become tank food nom nom nom. When I try to think of a Zerg army comp. to counter: Tank/hellion/viking/raven/ghost It's really hard to come up with a good composition. I do believe that Bio could be utilized in place of Tank/hellion, but I believe that army composition is A LOT weaker. I've realized this season more than any that mass lings (refer to Stephano's or Nerchio's games) are ridiculously strong and can be used all game. At one point Stephano had 162 lings against Polt and he ended up winning that game. The point is that Bio, in my experience, doesn't cut it anymore. The other interesting question that we have as Terran is: Do you spread your bio or not spread your bio? If you spread your bio, lings have more surface area and tear through marines. If you do not spread bio, you're prone to banes and Fungal's AoE. If anyone has tried spreading marines against ling/bane/infestor, you may wonder if it's actually better not to spread at all. Lings are very strong, and especially when they get adrenal glands and 2/2 or 3/3. With that said, I don't think Terran bio has much utility in the late game. I think that simple unit composition (ling/bane/infestor) would destroy (marine/marauder/viking/ghost/raven). Even adding roach bane would appear to hard counter that unit composition. So I think Terran has to go Tank/hellion/viking/raven/ghost. Zerg's unit composition here becomes more difficult. HSM works brilliantly against mass muta. And if the zerg attempted to poke in and avoid HSM, the muta would be subject to a lot of viking fire. Wouldn't seem to be a good option. BL/Corrupter/Infestor/Ling would appear to work alright, but is not cost efficient against this army type, which indeed was created to counter this composition. I suppose if Zerg was away ahead on gas and bases, they could keep trying to deny Terran expansions via Roach/ling drops and trade their army for Terran's army albeit at a less than favorable exchange rate. I don't think pure Roach, lings or banes are an option because mass Tank/Hellion obliterate these units. So that leaves us with the Ultralisk, which as we know is a Very Good unit. I wouldn't be surprised if in response to this positioning war, Zergs will choose to mass Ultra/Ling/Bane/Infestor.. This way Ultras could move in and tank all of the seige fire. Ling/Bane could follow behind, banes being manually detonated to destroy hellions and lings surrounding everything else. Ling/Bane/UItra ignore HSM pretty well. PDD would also not be valuable. Dropping auto turrets would be effective to get those extra pot shots out on the UItras, but is it enough if the Zerg masses these units and lowers the drone count to grant a high army value? Even dropping Infested Terrans before sending the Ultras to absorb seige fire is a good idea. Would also be interesting if Zerg tried to use neural parasite on ravens to HSM each other in the midst of this attack. Anyone have any thoughts? | ||
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
For early game aggression, skip the possibility of 2rax or reactor hellions and go directly for marine drops after your third CC is building in-base. This essentially forces spire to shut down the drops, or at least that is the most obvious and common response to dropships all up in the zerg's grill. While the spire is going down, take more bases and turtle up with marines, turrets, and tanks. The objective is to play defensively and secure as many geysers as possible. I think getting 5 bases should be feasible in this period of drop play pinning the zerg in their base, and the zerg going for the muta flock. Command centers built in-base should make this easy to do, and difficult to scout for the zerg. As for tech, the reactor starport is top priority for gas, followed by stim. Most likely the best supporting upgrade method is to have a double engineering bay as well, to power out 1/1 for marines to make your drops deadlier, and then research hi-sec and building armor in parallel to help turrets repel the mutalisks, and also to help the ravens once they are out. After these are done the engineering bays cede their gas priority to raven production, but marines as the mineral sink definitely could use those infantry upgrades later. This would be the time to start the transition into mass ravens, making 2 tech lab starports (in addition to the one reactor port you should already have), and doing the critical researches- corvid reactor and seeker missile. I am seeing a Terran player with 5-6 bases, hardly mining minerals but with all the geysers taken. Planetary fortresses everywhere except main and natural, with enough turrets at the expos to make mutalisks futile, and marines at home. Mass ravens out of tons of starports ensue. This could be really awesome. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On February 29 2012 03:57 zmansman17 wrote: I disagree here, and would have to agree with Avilo. Fungal actually has a pretty large range, given the large AoE. If you are planning to go mech and ravens against a competent zerg player (GM), you're probably going to be limited to 3 bases and only 6 gas. This means that each Raven is hugely important. In my experience (1219 pt Terran last season), it's very easy for Zerg to fungal stray ravens even if you have seiged tanks behind them. Like I said, you'd be surprised how long that range is. Yeah, its actually pretty difficult to use raven vs infestors. HSM doesn't really have the range and ravens are too slow to dodge. The ideal way to counter infestors would be to get map control and keep their numbers down but marine-tank builds doesn't give your map control so its an interesting problem. The only time you can really hurt them is if zerg is attacking. My solution was auto turret crawl and creep tumor clearing. You keep a field of auto turrets in front of your tanks with the marines in the back so they can't be fungaled. One thing that can help quite a bit is removing creep since that essentially adds 1/2 seconds to casting time for infestors since they have to run into range. | ||
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angra86
United States56 Posts
1. Why skip out on certain upgrades? Vikings seem to be a core part of the end game composition yet in the few videos I've watched you didn't upgrade attack even once. Also no upgrades to high-sec auto tracking which increases the radius of turrets, pdd, auto-turrets, and pf's. You also did not get building armor (I mean, why not?) or the durable materials upgrade which increases the duration of auto-turrets and pdd's by one minute as well as increasing the duration that seeker missiles chase the target. 2. Seeker missiles seem to be somewhat inefficient against unclumped units, especially broodlords since they're a very large unit. Do you really think it's worth the energy when you could throw down more pdd's to protect your vikings? It seems more like a deterrent to keep corrupters from rushing forward to attack your vikings which would clump them up. 3. Would this work with bio as well or do medivacs suck up too much gas for it to be effective? | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On February 29 2012 10:54 Antisocialmunky wrote: Yeah, its actually pretty difficult to use raven vs infestors. HSM doesn't really have the range and ravens are too slow to dodge. The ideal way to counter infestors would be to get map control and keep their numbers down but marine-tank builds doesn't give your map control so its an interesting problem. The only time you can really hurt them is if zerg is attacking. My solution was auto turret crawl and creep tumor clearing. You keep a field of auto turrets in front of your tanks with the marines in the back so they can't be fungaled. One thing that can help quite a bit is removing creep since that essentially adds 1/2 seconds to casting time for infestors since they have to run into range. I find that if he's gone for heavy infestor play you can use the auto turret crawl to force Infestors away from whatever you're trying to kill, so you don't even have to throw your ravens at his infestors. And then you've got a field of auto-turrets and a bunch of impotent infestors on the other side. You just have to get your army somewhere that the auto-turret field placement will cause him problems. I wouldn't want to casually walk up and try to SM his infestors. Cast range+ upgraded auto turret range is longer than fungal range, and fungals are pretty bad against individual ravens without something to target down the fungaled ravens, which you should be able to deter with tanks, vikings, and marines, or other ravens. I guess it depends on how much you're willing to trade for a raven if the zerg is determined. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On February 29 2012 06:10 ledarsi wrote: I was thinking that, depending on the map, this strategy might combine quite well with a very macro-focused early game. On a map like Antiga or Entombed Valley where you can quite easily secure three bases, a 1rax FE followed by a second fast CC for the third, and using marines, tanks, and turrets to turtle hard on 6 geysers could allow you to get mass raven running fairly quickly. For early game aggression, skip the possibility of 2rax or reactor hellions and go directly for marine drops after your third CC is building in-base. This essentially forces spire to shut down the drops, or at least that is the most obvious and common response to dropships all up in the zerg's grill. While the spire is going down, take more bases and turtle up with marines, turrets, and tanks. The objective is to play defensively and secure as many geysers as possible. I think getting 5 bases should be feasible in this period of drop play pinning the zerg in their base, and the zerg going for the muta flock. Command centers built in-base should make this easy to do, and difficult to scout for the zerg. As for tech, the reactor starport is top priority for gas, followed by stim. Most likely the best supporting upgrade method is to have a double engineering bay as well, to power out 1/1 for marines to make your drops deadlier, and then research hi-sec and building armor in parallel to help turrets repel the mutalisks, and also to help the ravens once they are out. After these are done the engineering bays cede their gas priority to raven production, but marines as the mineral sink definitely could use those infantry upgrades later. This would be the time to start the transition into mass ravens, making 2 tech lab starports (in addition to the one reactor port you should already have), and doing the critical researches- corvid reactor and seeker missile. I am seeing a Terran player with 5-6 bases, hardly mining minerals but with all the geysers taken. Planetary fortresses everywhere except main and natural, with enough turrets at the expos to make mutalisks futile, and marines at home. Mass ravens out of tons of starports ensue. This could be really awesome. In that case, I'd better bring out the 1-1 16 Marine Drop again in this matchup. It's a pretty good build, though you don't have map control and are vulnerable to a roach/baneling all-in. If we can beat the roach/baneling all-in with this build, we may possibly have the new standard for TvZ. | ||
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