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[G] Avilo's TvZ Lategame Raven Transition - Page 7

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
March 01 2012 05:28 GMT
#121
Roach/Bling all-ins are countered by siege mode and sim city for openings that surrender map control for a fast expansion. As long as you can survive the ling follow up after forcing zerg to spend units on busting down your wall, you'll be fine.
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
cydial
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States750 Posts
March 01 2012 06:18 GMT
#122
I do a similar style but I get double armories. 3-3 by 20min is the goal and you're only a few tanks worth of resources behind.
RamonMcGrady
Profile Joined July 2011
33 Posts
March 02 2012 11:31 GMT
#123
Great thread, I like the insight it provides.

Well written, avilo. Keep them coming!
VoO
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Germany278 Posts
March 02 2012 12:23 GMT
#124
Thanks for the thread, have been utilizing raves for a long time know in TvZ, unfortunately this will probably be nerfed in the next patch now that it has become more popular. ;-)
♥ 김택용 ♥Casual Dwarf Fortress Progamer
Bommes
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany1226 Posts
March 02 2012 12:38 GMT
#125
I personally don't really have an opinion on super lategame ravens because I've never seen anyone do it with success, but I'm always sad when I see a terran open with a delayed cloaked banshee build (maybe even 2 starports) with tech labs, and not following it up with at least 1 or 2 ravens and just leaving the tech lab on the starport. In theory you don't need 10 medivacs in TvZ as long as you are not going for a super heavy drop style, and some ravens make your midgame push really strong. The scans you save because of it alone equal so many marines if you use the energy for MULEs, its crazy.

Also I think the auto turret should be changed, it needs a higher casting range and/or no building placement requirement, so the raven has another good spell when PDD is useless (against ling infestor etc) without relying on a 125 energy spell like HSM for which you rarely have enough energy. As it is now autoturret is just wasted energy in a lot of circumstances and because of the stupid building requirement you waste a lot of APM on actions that would be better used for splitting your marines, because you want to place the autoturret but the lings run everywhere and block it. It NEVER works in a fight, its bullshit. The Auto Turret spell makes no sense at all, it can't move, has barely higher dps than infested terrans (which can move and are less expensive energy wise, 9.3 DPS for 25 energy against 10 DPS for 50 energy) and its only strength is that it can tank a lot of damage, but how should it take damage when you can never place it in a fight and have to wait for the opponent to attack into it (which they never do). All it is used for is to abuse imbalanced maps because you can block ramps with it, but nowadays there aren't any bad maps anymore where you can hit expansions with siege tanks from the high ground or something like that and even if there are just building 2 or 3 bunkers is usually the better option.

acrimoneyius
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States983 Posts
March 02 2012 12:39 GMT
#126
On February 28 2012 01:13 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
O look, terran finds another unit that they considered horrible but turns out to be viable all along after being forced to adapt. Always knew that ravens had a place in the terran death ball. Don't know whether to enjoy the "I told you so" or to quit sc2 for good at the new influx of raven play bs that I can't scout and but still have to deal with.


Btw if you read the guide or had any experience with playing terran, you'd realize you still need to use ghosts in combination with ravens (EMP Infestors = necessary). Just another control group to add, no biggie. It wasn't like terran late game armies were already difficult enough to control.
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
March 03 2012 00:24 GMT
#127
I have found that this strat works to some degree against BroodLords. But the problem is that Ravens are close to useless when he switches to 15 Ultras and take out expansions after expansion while you scramble to catch up with your army.
On shakuras where you can split map and make PF it works though. But since most of the ladder maps are open it is very hard to stop the Zerg late game army and Ravens do not really protect you against the tech switch.

My win ratio against Zerg late game was about 30% and with the Ghost nerf it dropped to 10%. Ravens counter BrooLords but are about as useful against Ultras as Vikings are.
awakenx
Profile Joined May 2011
United States341 Posts
March 05 2012 02:11 GMT
#128
On March 03 2012 09:24 MockHamill wrote:
I have found that this strat works to some degree against BroodLords. But the problem is that Ravens are close to useless when he switches to 15 Ultras and take out expansions after expansion while you scramble to catch up with your army.
On shakuras where you can split map and make PF it works though. But since most of the ladder maps are open it is very hard to stop the Zerg late game army and Ravens do not really protect you against the tech switch.

My win ratio against Zerg late game was about 30% and with the Ghost nerf it dropped to 10%. Ravens counter BrooLords but are about as useful against Ultras as Vikings are.


Yeah, Ultras still really hard to deal with, especially after they lose all their ultras they dump all their minerals into a billion lings, which easily cleans up MMM like a joke :/ TvZ late game is a nightmare...
WorstMicroNA
neozxa
Profile Joined August 2011
Indonesia545 Posts
March 05 2012 09:46 GMT
#129
I just played a match with a Diamond Zerg on Bel Shir. I tried out this strat while I realized that the Zerg was teching to Broods. I attacked sooner or later, I sent a couple of Seeker Missles to the Brood Lords and they just melt away like flies. But the main weakness of this strategy is when the Zerg goes something else other than Broods late game, especially Ultras and Roaches. That's why you should scout well to see what tech path(s) the opponent are going for when attempting this build I guess.

But should pro Terrans start doing this on major tourneys such as MLG, GSL,etc. I can kinda envision this happening:

Patch 1.4.4.=

TERRAN

Raven

Seeker Missles now deal 50 damage vs Massive. Damage against other types of units stays the same.

...and the list goes on.

But nevertheless, Ravens are a really good support unit in TvZ. Especially their Seeker Missles which takes out units like flies. Thanks for sharing this guide with us!
Keep moving forward
halfies
Profile Joined November 2011
United Kingdom327 Posts
March 05 2012 10:31 GMT
#130
'terrans had innovated'
the word your looking for is abused
but its a good guide, i do hope more terrans start using ravens, it has always seemed logical to me
iAmJeffReY
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4262 Posts
March 05 2012 10:56 GMT
#131
My win ratio against Zerg late game was about 30% and with the Ghost nerf it dropped to 10%. Ravens counter BrooLords but are about as useful against Ultras as Vikings are.

Well it's a good thing marauders make ultras look like stuffed animals.

I hate to say this kind of thing, but look at polt at ASUS ROG. All marauders once he saw the hive switch, regardless of BL or ultras coming.
Unbiased biased terran abuser Jeffrey. Sorry for the rage, friend!
shizna
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom803 Posts
March 05 2012 11:06 GMT
#132
On March 05 2012 19:56 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Show nested quote +
My win ratio against Zerg late game was about 30% and with the Ghost nerf it dropped to 10%. Ravens counter BrooLords but are about as useful against Ultras as Vikings are.

Well it's a good thing marauders make ultras look like stuffed animals.

I hate to say this kind of thing, but look at polt at ASUS ROG. All marauders once he saw the hive switch, regardless of BL or ultras coming.


like antiga vs stephano, where polt played pretty much a perfect game and lost because he didnt blindly make marauders...

that's when he realized, "wow this matchup is dumb, guess i gotta blindly make marauders in every game".
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-05 17:09:27
March 05 2012 17:08 GMT
#133
I was completely wrong. Mech+Raven is awesome! Suddenly Zerg lategame is manageable without Koran level APM. I do not make any tanks, just Thor/Hellion/Raven/Banshee. The key is producing enough Ravens so that you can basically seeker missile everything. If he goes Ultras I use my Ravens for turreting all his mineral lines instead since Ultras do not care much about Raven. I hardly produce vikings anymore, just 5 or so to clean up BroodLords after they have been seeker missiled.
LavaLava
Profile Joined January 2012
United States235 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-05 18:41:21
March 05 2012 18:40 GMT
#134
On March 05 2012 18:46 neozxa wrote:
Patch 1.4.4.=

TERRAN

Raven

Seeker Missles now deal 50 damage vs Massive. Damage against other types of units stays the same.



This bolded bit is where the comparison to the last patch breaks down.
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-09 18:06:55
March 09 2012 18:05 GMT
#135
I have found one huge problem which is transitioning into the ideal mech/Raven composition. Thor/Hellion/Raven deals with every single late game Zerg composition and it not as vunerable to mass BroodLord or mass Ultra armies compared to if you use mass Tanks instead of Thors.

So in a perfect world I want to mass up Thor/Hellion/Raven and A-move with my 150 pop army while seeker missiling everything. In reality, most Zerg counter you mid game by going mass Roaches. Roaches rape Thor based armies for cost in mid game but loses due to pop inefficiency late game.

So how do you get to the late game intact? I see 2 major paths:

1) Massing Tank/Hellion mid game and only getting Thors for anti-muta while gradually transitioning into more Thors and less tanks late game. Problem is that if you misjudge the number of Mutas and have too few Thors you lose the game.
2) Marine/Tank mid game and gradually replacing the marines with Thors. Here you are safer against mass muta but have a weaker late game army due to having mass marines that you need to kill off before late game. You are also forced to upgrade 2 unit lines instead of 1.

However I am not sure which of those 2 are the best way to get from mid game to late game.
sherry.michael
Profile Joined October 2010
China6 Posts
March 21 2012 16:40 GMT
#136
Is that replay pack ok?I download it but it's already broken
otherwise,anyone could send me some replay about this build?
thanks
Rick Deckard
Profile Joined October 2010
90 Posts
March 24 2012 17:51 GMT
#137
An interesting build. Obviously requires a high skill level to execute well.

Kudo's to Avilo for trying to find a viable late game TvZ play style. Seems that many Terran's have given up on late game TvZ and rely on some form of all-in' now.
Christolight
Profile Joined December 2011
United States46 Posts
May 29 2012 20:22 GMT
#138
Awesome Post Avilo. Great information and a lot to chew on.
Lets get Dangerous!
babyToSS
Profile Joined December 2009
233 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-29 21:09:17
May 29 2012 21:07 GMT
#139
Awesome guide. SC2 terran starport tech is really good late game. Once BCs hit a critical mass with ghost/raven support and good control they are near unstoppable. Any transitions that push the late game towards this is a welcome change from marine+tank/marauder spam till end of match.

Edit: Ravens also don't need to wait for air weapon/armor upgardes to be effective. So they are also a viable option to switch into air late game.
babyToSS here! Can u go easy on me plzzz?
babyToSS
Profile Joined December 2009
233 Posts
May 29 2012 21:34 GMT
#140
On February 27 2012 05:09 RaiD.RaynoR wrote:
Ravens are useful there is no doubt... but securing that many bases for the gas is unlikely to happen against a decent zerg. This strategy is very viable when the maps are split and the Z becomes immobile. I just go for a 3 base timing before they get BL with marine tank thor.


This is kind of complimentary to the standard marine tank play. I could see a style where you go for the standrad triple OC into 2/2 marine tank timing. If the zerg messed up you can punish but if the zerg is good then, instead of forcing cost ineffective engagements against turtling blord infestor, terran can take more bases and start massing ravens. You can sit behind tanks, planetaries and sensor towers while freeing up supply with multi pronged marine drops and sacrificing scvs. Basically, force the zerg to attack into a turtling terran or deal with Raven ball.
babyToSS here! Can u go easy on me plzzz?
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