EPT[G] Avilo's TvZ Lategame Raven Transition - Page 3
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joeschmo
United States167 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On February 26 2012 00:09 joeschmo wrote: For a strategy to be viable, it must work at the top level of play. The NA Grandmaster league is not the top level. GSL Code S is the top level. Sure, Mech might work vs Protoss at the Silver league, we wouldn't consider it viable though. I'm not impressed with the Zerg competition either, maybe go on the Korean ladder and practice it. The strategy itself shows promise & it would be fortunate if it worked out. It does work at top level of play. I've beaten very good players with this, darkforce, mondragon, lz, machine, to name a few and lots more. What are people's obsession with a korean having to do something first for it to be viable? Myself and other Terrans were using blueflame hellions in TvT months b4 koreans started to abuse it at MLG, and then suddenly everyone jumps on board and says it's viable. This transition works, and you will see more people start doing it because it's...good. I usually am ahead of the learning curve on new metagame things, so i guess it's your perogative if you want to read my guide and watch a few replays and be a bit ahead on the learning curve, or wait a few months for every korean to start doing it before you believe it. It was the same with mech TvT. Everyone kept saying it sucked...and then it was like...oh wait.   | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On February 25 2012 23:24 TangSC wrote: Agreed, I like the concept but I also wouldn't call it "Avilo's" late-game raven transition, I'm certain there have been others with much the same thought-process. Seriously? You name every all in people have done for ages after your self. Time to read this book. Back in an hour ~~~ | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
On February 25 2012 23:24 TangSC wrote: Agreed, I like the concept but I also wouldn't call it "Avilo's" late-game raven transition, I'm certain there have been others with much the same thought-process. LOL says the person that copies all the Korean all-ins, adds in a new name, and then presents it as his own. Pot calling the kettle black. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
On February 26 2012 01:41 iAmJeffReY wrote: Seriously? You name every all in people have done for ages after your self. Time to read this book. Back in an hour ~~~ Lol tangs post is so hilarious, made me laugh. Good explanation avilo, what about continuing with this line of thought into the transition to BCs? Once you have ravens and 10-15vikings then it seems to me that there is basically nothing zerg can do to fight the bcs. Do you have any thoughts on that? I have been trying this kind of air dominance vs zerg and its been working pretty well for me. Keep one factory constantly producing hellions to deal with any ling bling run bys and mineral dump. | ||
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DawN883
Sweden558 Posts
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
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entropius
United States1046 Posts
They are the best against vikings, when a single PDD blocks 560 damage. Unfortunately, corruptors are low damage, high HP units, so a PDD only blocks 280 damage. Is this right? Vikings do 14 damage per missile, and a PDD will block 20 of them, so that's 560. But a corruptor does 14 damage per shot too, so that's also 560. (The fact that the viking fires missiles two at the time doesn't matter.) | ||
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Z-Ganon_the_Boss
Germany11 Posts
 .Realy good explanation and good replays. I will use your bo against zerg for now because your ravens did great job on avilo stream . For now call the raven "ravilo" :D. | ||
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On February 25 2012 23:11 Elldar wrote: Watched some games from the replay pack though and I am not that impressed. Every game the zerg does no have any solid aggression that denies your third or delaying. Has not looked at all games but a good chunk and it was pretty much the same you take three bases tech to your mech army,then start taking the map while the zerg sits passive, then lose since mech is super cost effective. Any good zerg would know to put pressure on against mech and start to deny fourth bases and so on. http://www.twitch.tv/jechotv/b/309242528 Here is a vod of him losing a couple of times to another top 10 GM on NA. First game is a playhem at 2:27:10 The second game is on ladder at 4:49:30 You can see that the build is fairly strong, but also how JEcho exploits some of its weaknesses. You can watch the same games from Avilo's perspective at: http://www.twitch.tv/avilo/b/309252431 First game is at 00:36:00 Second game is at 02:58:15 | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
Personally, I've never gotten ghosts, and ALWAYS gotten Ravens since.... Season 2? So underrated. Get about 4 starports with tech labs, put out a single round of banshees first with cloak and send them to harass expos (corrupters are slow, they rarely have detection, also really good vs infestors), then crank out ravens. PDD amazing vs Corrupters, Seeker awesome at dealing dmg vs clumped units... only difference than avilos strat is I try to tech into BC's. They NEED corrupters vs BC, PDD amazing vs corrupter, Yamato AWESOME vs corrupters, seeker awesome vs clumped corrupters.... I recommend trying it, once you have that solid economy. BC's imo blow without raven support, but BC/Raven is the strongest combo in the game if you can get it. | ||
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Tortious_Tortoise
United States944 Posts
That being said, insofar as cost efficiency goes, I don't think Marauders and Tanks are good units to supplement the Raven. Ravens are the most gas-intensive units in the Terran Arsenal relatively speaking, and Marauders/Tanks will eat up that precious gas a Terran needs to support and sustain multiple Starports constantly making Ravens. In my experience, it's better to supplement Ravens with masses upon masses of Hellions. My midgame TvZ is a 5 fact mech play, and when it's time to transition to Ravens once Zerg gets to Hive, I build three ports, move them to my factories tech labs, and build reactors on my factories. This gives me 40 food per minute in Hellions, and at this point my economy is so big (also I have bad macro cuz I'm a diamond scrub) that I can afford to throw away hellions, trading them for drones, bases, spines, and moderate amounts of roaches (Hellions are sooooooo good when they're in big numbers). I can focus all my gas on Raven production and Hellions are my mineral dump. With this there is sort of role-reversal from TvZ midgame. Hellions are so fast they can counter attack in multiple locations safely, picking apart the Zerg and forcing him into a defensive posture. While this is happening, the Raven count slowly builds up. When the Zerg finally says "fuck it" and moves out, I'll have 15-20 Ravens to absolutely destroy their army. Finally, I think you overlook a little bit the strength of the Auto-Turret. While it certainly doesn't have the "boom" factor of a Seeker Missile, in some situations 5 auto turrets will deal more damage than 2 seeker missiles. It lasts a ridiculously long time, and has a higher dps than a Marine, which, as we all know, is a pretty good unit. Thank you for this guide, and for giving my new favorite unit some exposure. EDIT: also, I love the video at the beginning. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On February 26 2012 01:54 Whatson wrote: LOL says the person that copies all the Korean all-ins, adds in a new name, and then presents it as his own. Pot calling the kettle black. Like what thread? lol | ||
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burningPurple
Norway76 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On February 26 2012 01:54 Whatson wrote: LOL says the person that copies all the Korean all-ins, adds in a new name, and then presents it as his own. Pot calling the kettle black. rofl glad I'm not the only one who saw that  . I never understood why naming it after yourself anyway xD.I will say ravens pretty good been facing ravens on the kr server past week or so before the patch and as I expected they are actually pretty good ^^. | ||
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Elldar
Sweden287 Posts
On February 25 2012 23:52 OmegaKnetus wrote: + Show Spoiler + On February 25 2012 23:11 Elldar wrote: Except the balance whining it was a good thread. Watched some games from the replay pack though and I am not that impressed. Every game the zerg does no have any solid aggression that denies your third or delaying. Has not looked at all games but a good chunk and it was pretty much the same you take three bases tech to your mech army,then start taking the map while the zerg sits passive, then lose since mech is super cost effective. Any good zerg would know to put pressure on against mech and start to deny fourth bases and so on. However this style might have validity to it but as your strat plans out now it will lose to better zerg, you won't have the luxury to go tank/thor/hellion/viking/ghost/raven against all zerg and if the zerg early on start trading, you can't start replacing with that composition since you will get gas limited. Something need to go imo, probably ghost if you go mech since mech don't suffer that badly from fungals if you not catch siege tanks unsieged. And siege tanks can target down the infestor if they get to close. You really need your composition for the midgame clear. Will you go thor/hellion then later on add tanks or tank hellion with turret support, and so on. I am purely thinking of the economy aspects of the build, with constant production and clean transition you can not afford everything you get. If you go bio I can see that you might wanna mix in ghosts, but I am not sold on that idea if you go raven/viking to combat b-lords. Ghost has a to specific roll in your composition imo too emp infestor, the nukes is cool but not game winning and basically is a slower hsm. you know avilo was top ten gm league last time i checked, how much better should the zergs be? And even if some korean uberhuman could waste this playstyle, why care about it, you'll never get to that level anyways. As for my own experience, i've been using this for some time now (I'm a regular on Avilo'S stream, so I saw this style in action some time before) and i've had pretty good results with a mech into ravens. You just have to scout and react accordingly and you're pretty much safe. Even though in my opinion, avilo'S cc first into banshees is a bit too greedy and unsafe, I prefer a normal reactor helion expand with a blueflame or siege follow up I am not impressed by the strat because from the games I've seen the zergys played into avilos hand. In every game Avilo got 3 bases for free no contest, except for one game where the zerg kept all-ining with deminishing success. And playing against mech you need to deny expos and spread him thin by putting pressure on, you can't let the terran split the map up and take six bases since his army is going to be much more cost efficient than the zergs. The last sentence is the key point all zerg were practically saying "I am going to play cost efficiently against an army that is more cost effective than mine." So of course they lost. You really have to swarm against mech and crush his army convincingly, since mech has a really big problem when it comes to replenish units. And you don't have to be an uberhuman to do so. You just have to switch mindset from playing against bio to playing against mech. | ||
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slytown
Korea (South)1411 Posts
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EternaLLegacy
United States410 Posts
On February 25 2012 16:40 KJSharp wrote: Dear Avilo, I appreciate your guide. It was very thorough and explained one way that Terrans can deal with Zerg late game. There is one thing which you briefly touched on but the implications of which you left untouched - the high APM and micro intensive aspect. What this means, then, is that only Masters and above can do it successfully. I am a diamond Terran, so though I have good macro and good micro, I am afraid that I will be unable to make this a viable strategy for me. What do you recommend to us Terrans who are Diamond and below? How can we beat our diamond zerg friends who do this exact same strategy? I am having immense trouble defeating them. Get better. | ||
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Facultyadjutant
Sweden1876 Posts
You just can't pressure multiple hatcheries from zergs of what I have seen | ||
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c0se
Germany148 Posts
He best thing, what i didnt expected at all, was that his chainfungles on my raven werent so strong. Most of the time he managed to get of 3, but then he had to splitmicro them, because he got in range of HSM. Then i just called down 10 mules and repaired. | ||
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