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Are you Tired of Protoss's Turtling, yet feel like if you take an early 3rd a big scary deathball will liquify your army? So was I.
Introduction
I tried no gas FE's and didn't like how scary a 1gate FE into 4gate pressure made my marines feel. I also tried the 1rax Conc FE/2Rax but I felt that I HAD to do damage or I would be behind economically. I wanted to play a greedier style while being safe enough to get 3bases saturated before 13minutes. I read the CreatorPrime PvT guide and I was inspired.
The Build
Overview
A very fast command center followed up by double upgrades while getting the Barracks Tech-lab upgrades is just the start. After 3 Barracks, you drop down another Command Center, followed by a Factory. once the factory is complete you get and armory and start 2/2 while getting medivacs. After you get your 3rd started put down 3-5 More barracks and attack once 2/2 is done. IF not able to straight up win there, take a 4th and do another attack once 3/3 is done.
OLD VERSION IN SPOILER (cant figure out how to get the spoiler tag itself to say that)
+ Show Spoiler +
EDIT: Since most are complaining about the inherent weakness to 2base allin's, you can always go 6rax before 3rd CC and that will hold MOST if not ALL 2base allin's the protoss can throw at you, However your 3rd is delayed by 2full minutes, so the decision is up to you.
Build Order
10 Supply
12 Barracks
@100%, make 3 marines
16 Orbital Command
16 Supply
16 Gas
21 Command center at natural
@3 marines complete, Tech-lab on Barracks
(supply discontinued from here because all timings are relative now)
Supply
@100% Tech-lab, Marauder and Concussive Shells
Barracks
@100 Command Center, Orbital Command
@100% Concussive Shells, Stimpack
Gas
Supply
Barracks
2x Engineering Bay
@100%, +1 Weapons and +1 Armor
Supply
8:40-9:00 Command Center
2 Gas at natural
Factory
@100% Reactor
Armory
Starport
@100% Reactor, Factory scout.
3x Barracks
Yeah this BO is getting too long..
NEW VERSION
Delays the upgrades a little to make way for more aggressive play. You MUST take map control/poke at natural after second marauder else there is no point of doing this build.
Build Order
10 Supply
12 Barracks
@100% Barracks, 3 marines
16 Orbital Command
16 Supply
16 Gas
21 Command Center at natural
@100% 3marines, Tech-lab
22 Supply
@100% Tech-lab, Marauder and Concussive Shells
26 Barracks
32 Barracks
33 Orbital Command
@100% Concussive Shells, Stimpack
38 Gas
40 Supply
45 Double Engineering bay
@100% +1 attack and armor
@100% Stimpack, Combat Shield
~8:50 Command Center
~9:00 Factory
Double Gas at Natural
You get the idea...
Early Game
After a few weeks of testing I've found multiple pokes followed by a Stim timing attack to be most effective. If you are at his base with your units, he won't be at your base with his units.
You might be wondering why 3 marines THEN a tech-lab. A crono'd Stalker that is skipping the Zealot CAN'T be at your base before your first marauder is out. With half decent micro you can kill the stalker with your 3marines and marauder, or at least force a retreat. A Zealot/Stalker poke can't be at your base before Concussive Shells is done (well it can be but only by like 5 seconds max, in which case you can just stall to get at least a free zealot kill).
Be aggressive, there is no reason not to. Multiple pokes should tell if he's has a natural or not. In the case of no natural bunkers and turrets. Dieing to 4gate/Dts is the most aggravating thing in the world when you play this greedy style.
Based on what you Scout
This is based on any type of scouting you do BEFORE the 2/2 attack, whether its Scan, a drop, ect..
Get Vikings if you scout Colossus/Robotics Bay.
IF you scout TC/Templar Archives immediately take a 4th, and get Ghosts. If a Protoss is investing in HT first, that is a lot of gas that isn't colossus/upgrades. I mean what is he going to do Storm your 4th CC to death?
IF you scout Double Forge...I don't know what to say, Laugh? Then roll his gateway army with your better/equivalent upgraded MMM ball.
The Vagueness of the Late-Game
The death ball is most effective clumped together, the best way to combat this is to drop/attack all over the place at the same time. Your economy should be raging so don't worry about sacrificing army for probes/nexus/buildings. Just make sure you spam Barracks/Starports once you max out. You should literally have 16-20 barracks and 4-5 starports once you max out. Other than that GL HF.
Replays
I had more replays however I didn't have auto-save on and i spammed too many custom games, however all these replays are from ladder.
http://drop.sc/116028
+ Show Spoiler +My opponent does some wierd funky crap, so i ebay block him..then procede to be very greedy and just out macro him hard.
http://drop.sc/116029
+ Show Spoiler + The best example replay so far, my opponent opens 1gate FE into 4Gate pressure. I manage to hold but i had to pull scv's which i was fine with because my 3rd cc just completed.
http://drop.sc/116030
+ Show Spoiler +I lose this game because of silly mistakes by me, AKA supply blocked hard right before he attacks. however when he attacks, I have a larger army even WITH the supply blocks however, colossus do work.
http://drop.sc/116444
+ Show Spoiler +Me holding 2 base colossus timing attack just fine...
Edit: more replays yay!
http://drop.sc/122158
+ Show Spoiler +I lose to 1 base DTs. I was tempted to all-in when I saw the low-ground plyon/gateway, but I was like naw, I'll just out macro this newb. I was the newb after all. Which got me raging for the next game.
http://drop.sc/122159
+ Show Spoiler +So I'm raging from the game before. I tell myself AGGRO OR DIE. Using a variation I'm liking a lot more (later second gas/ebays for faster 3rax) I control the tempo of the game. I do a 2 scout pokes picking off a few units, then a Stim timing attack. I grab my 3rd when I move out for the stim timing attack, I was lucky and sniped the nexus before pulling back with the protoss's army in tow. The next 2/2 Timing attack ends the game shortly after.
http://drop.sc/122166
+ Show Spoiler +One of the replays where I transition from the old version to the new version. I guess this is my second game against double forge and as you will see 2/2 beats 2/2..
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This looks like a nice variation of the fast 3rd CC build, a bit slower but a bit safer. I don't like how the BO feels against Void Rays, but at this point it's purely theorycrafting because I haven't tried it. How does it hold up to a 3gate Stargate allin anyway?
edited because I found a better thread for my ranting 
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On February 20 2012 19:26 Plague1503 wrote:This looks like a nice variation of the fast 3rd CC build, a bit slower but a bit safer. I don't like how the BO feels against Void Rays, but at this point it's purely theorycrafting because I haven't tried it. How does it hold up to a 3gate Stargate allin anyway? edited because I found a better thread for my ranting
It's almost impossible to beat 3g void ray with conc shell expand anyway. I think that's a build order loss.
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after reading this it totally feels super greedy and super vunlerable to 2colossus with range timing(i think you wont even have medivacs), sux your from NA cuz i would show u
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On February 20 2012 19:35 SMMN wrote:
after reading this it totally feels super greedy and super vunlerable to 2colossus with range timing(i think you wont even have medivacs), sux your from NA cuz i would show u
In my game against aQTpiller (drop.sc/116030), I lose to said Colossus timing attack. I lose because of lack of scouting/supply blocks. If I would of scouted Colossus earlier, I could of had 6+ Vikings by the time he attacked. 6Viking and an bio army with better upgrades should roll the 2colossus timing attack.
On February 20 2012 19:56 Sated wrote:
Overall, this seems like a solid build if you suspect (or know) your opponent is going to go double Forge, but if your plan against a turtling Colossus-tech Protoss is to drop then you're not going to do well against Protoss players who are good at deflecting drops.
My plan isn't to drop a Colossus-Tech Protoss. Its to max my MMMV army early so I can just 1A him. IF you scout colossus early enough, by the time your 2/2 timing attack hits, you can have upwards of 10 Viking. In my game vs FoShigs (drop.sc/116029) my 2/2 timing attack just rolls him, he had colossus and I had no Vikings.
On February 20 2012 19:32 Bojas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 19:26 Plague1503 wrote:This looks like a nice variation of the fast 3rd CC build, a bit slower but a bit safer. I don't like how the BO feels against Void Rays, but at this point it's purely theorycrafting because I haven't tried it. How does it hold up to a 3gate Stargate allin anyway? edited because I found a better thread for my ranting It's almost impossible to beat 3g void ray with conc shell expand anyway. I think that's a build order loss.
I haven't played against a 3gate Void ray All-in, however when ever I scout no expo, I cancel my 3rd and put down 2 barracks and 2 bunkers with a Missle turret in between for detection.
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The reason why double forge isn't strong is a very very fast 3rd (8-9:30ish) with double eng bay is that it lacks the tools to punish such greed. A softer counter to double forge is to just simply add a 2nd eng bay asap upon spotting the style.
The whole concept of the double forge build is to use upgrade based timings to hold off various things and then finally win with the 3/3 timing (or go into a very long game).
The proper response for a toss that sees this double eng bay and really fast 3rd is to corners and get a really fast 3rd and tech up faster. It can be very hard to time when to start massing units vs this.
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On February 20 2012 19:32 Bojas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 19:26 Plague1503 wrote:This looks like a nice variation of the fast 3rd CC build, a bit slower but a bit safer. I don't like how the BO feels against Void Rays, but at this point it's purely theorycrafting because I haven't tried it. How does it hold up to a 3gate Stargate allin anyway? edited because I found a better thread for my ranting It's almost impossible to beat 3g void ray with conc shell expand anyway. I think that's a build order loss.
if you see the stargate before the voidray is built then you should be able to survive, but otherwise yeah not very viable.
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seems cool, ill try it out and post my results.
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reactor double expand is safer against a few different builds. marauder expanding is simply not a viable option due to a variety of all-ins that it can not defend against. reactor expand also has the option of simply going for extra rax (before a 3rd) early on in case of a 1 base protoss build, but the early marine production helps keep you safe against attacks.
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On February 21 2012 04:57 Jesushooves wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 19:32 Bojas wrote:On February 20 2012 19:26 Plague1503 wrote:This looks like a nice variation of the fast 3rd CC build, a bit slower but a bit safer. I don't like how the BO feels against Void Rays, but at this point it's purely theorycrafting because I haven't tried it. How does it hold up to a 3gate Stargate allin anyway? edited because I found a better thread for my ranting It's almost impossible to beat 3g void ray with conc shell expand anyway. I think that's a build order loss. if you see the stargate before the voidray is built then you should be able to survive, but otherwise yeah not very viable.
You can reactively counter any conc shell expand with a 1 gate FE = > Void Ray timing attack. See MC vs a ton of Terrans before who tried to Conc Shell expand.
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It's harder to hold allins with this than a 1 rax FE... @_@
tech also rly late.
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United States8476 Posts
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin.
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On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin.
Ya this build def goes out way too far. It basically assumes the toss does double forge.
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On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin.
I don't know why you must theorycraft. IF you scout robo bay around the time you start your starport (which i do/if i see robo, i still just make vikings), you'll have ~6 vikings by the time the 2base colossus all-in happens. You will also have 6 barracks of production. Yes you will lose to it sometimes, but not the majority of the time. The emphasis of this build is to scrap by until 3 bases are saturated. (drop.sc/116444) In this replay my opponent goes for the 2base colossus attack (not all-in because he somehow only has 1 colossus), I have 4 vikings and a medivac along with 6 barracks of production by the time he attacks me.
On February 21 2012 06:47 vaderseven wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. Ya this build def goes out way too far. It basically assumes the toss does double forge.
Of all my TvP's I've played, only 1 has gone Double Forge (And I wasn't even doing this build). I manage to fair more than 60% winrate with this build, with almost all games going past the 16minute mark. Please try the build before you bash it.
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On February 20 2012 19:32 Bojas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 19:26 Plague1503 wrote:This looks like a nice variation of the fast 3rd CC build, a bit slower but a bit safer. I don't like how the BO feels against Void Rays, but at this point it's purely theorycrafting because I haven't tried it. How does it hold up to a 3gate Stargate allin anyway? edited because I found a better thread for my ranting It's almost impossible to beat 3g void ray with conc shell expand anyway. I think that's a build order loss.
I actually think concussive shell expand is not viable. Depending on how early the Protoss scouts it (see the tech lab, see an early marauder, etc), they can actually immediately send a probe out and proxy a stargate and 2 more gates assuming they were going for a 1 gate FE and still win every time vs concussive shell openers. See MC vs ForGG from this GSL season, and my own ladder experience confirms this.
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this build works fine if they dont attack you for 10 minutes. too much tech too much economy not enough unit production. 2 barracks isnt enough. do people even watch the korean terran attentively?
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On February 21 2012 08:04 iTzSnypah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. I don't know why you must theorycraft. IF you scout robo bay around the time you start your starport (which i do/if i see robo, i still just make vikings), you'll have ~6 vikings by the time the 2base colossus all-in happens. You will also have 6 barracks of production. Yes you will lose to it sometimes, but not the majority of the time. The emphasis of this build is to scrap by until 3 bases are saturated. (drop.sc/116444) In this replay my opponent goes for the 2base colossus attack (not all-in because he somehow only has 1 colossus), I have 4 vikings and a medivac along with 6 barracks of production by the time he attacks me. Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 06:47 vaderseven wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. Ya this build def goes out way too far. It basically assumes the toss does double forge. Of all my TvP's I've played, only 1 has gone Double Forge (And I wasn't even doing this build). I manage to fair more than 60% winrate with this build, with almost all games going past the 16minute mark. Please try the build before you bash it.
I just thought I'd come in here and offer some advice: If you're going for a quick third, you really shouldn't be rushing to spend all this gas and tech to marauders. A 1 rax FE without gas is definitely the best. The reason you open with a Marauder Expand is to hit a quick stim timing off 2 base or because you want to be a baller and kill a dude's scouting poke. You don't do it to take a quick third and get crushed by any sort of quick tech.
I think you should take a moment to listen to what V7 and Monk have to say, as these guys basically know what's up. That being said, let me break down your replay for you. You play against a low Diamond protoss who goes for a 2 gate expo and attacks you with a gateway army supporting a single colossus at the 13:00 mark while expanding. This is not a 2 base colossus all-in and this game doesn't represent an adequate defense of a 2-base colossus all-in..
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On February 21 2012 08:16 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 08:04 iTzSnypah wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. I don't know why you must theorycraft. IF you scout robo bay around the time you start your starport (which i do/if i see robo, i still just make vikings), you'll have ~6 vikings by the time the 2base colossus all-in happens. You will also have 6 barracks of production. Yes you will lose to it sometimes, but not the majority of the time. The emphasis of this build is to scrap by until 3 bases are saturated. (drop.sc/116444) In this replay my opponent goes for the 2base colossus attack (not all-in because he somehow only has 1 colossus), I have 4 vikings and a medivac along with 6 barracks of production by the time he attacks me. On February 21 2012 06:47 vaderseven wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. Ya this build def goes out way too far. It basically assumes the toss does double forge. Of all my TvP's I've played, only 1 has gone Double Forge (And I wasn't even doing this build). I manage to fair more than 60% winrate with this build, with almost all games going past the 16minute mark. Please try the build before you bash it. I just thought I'd come in here and offer some advice: If you're going for a quick third, you really shouldn't be rushing to spend all this gas and tech to marauders. A 1 rax FE without gas is definitely the best. The reason you open with a Marauder Expand is to hit a quick stim timing off 2 base or because you want to be a baller and kill a dude's scouting poke. You don't do it to take a quick third and get crushed by any sort of quick tech. I think you should take a moment to listen to what V7 and Monk have to say, as these guys basically know what's up. That being said, let me break down your replay for you. You play against a low Diamond protoss who goes for a 2 gate expo and attacks you with a gateway army supporting a single colossus at the 13:00 mark while expanding. This is not a 2 base colossus all-in and this game doesn't represent an adequate defense of a 2-base colossus all-in..
I take security in Tech, which if you think about it, that is what Protoss does every game (except PvP luls). I know this may be on the more extreme side, but why not, 60-70% of the Protoss's out there are Passive players who just survive until lategame. Terran has no real use for gas before medivac's/ghosts, and there is usually 3 gas's just sitting around until you get said units. I figured, if i have around the same number of workers that the Protoss has the WHOLE game why is it I'm only on 1-2 gas, while they usually have 4 on 2base? I knew I was already going Bio, so upgrades seemed the way to go. After a few games of just going 2 base 6rax into 3rd, I realized I was rolling everything between 9-12 minutes the Protoss was throwing at me. I decided just to get an earlier 3rd. Which obviously works for me or else I wouldn't have written this guide.
I understand V7 and Monk are better players than me, but their posts make it seem like my build is incredibly fragile. Which it isn't. Sure it will die 50% of the time a Protoss does a 2Base All-in, but how often does a Protoss do a 2base all-in? Less than 10% of the time for sure. IF they would try the build, THEN say it just plainly dies to a 2base all-in, I would respect that, however they are just blatantly stating it dies to X after a quick glance.
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On February 20 2012 19:32 Bojas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 19:26 Plague1503 wrote:This looks like a nice variation of the fast 3rd CC build, a bit slower but a bit safer. I don't like how the BO feels against Void Rays, but at this point it's purely theorycrafting because I haven't tried it. How does it hold up to a 3gate Stargate allin anyway? edited because I found a better thread for my ranting It's almost impossible to beat 3g void ray with conc shell expand anyway. I think that's a build order loss.
I beat that w/1rax conc that earlier today.
I only built marines after my first marauder until my 2nd rax finished. I started stim directly after conc, and my 2nd rax started at 25 supply. It could have been a poorly executed 3gate vr build, though.
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On February 21 2012 08:36 iTzSnypah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 08:16 Blazinghand wrote:On February 21 2012 08:04 iTzSnypah wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. I don't know why you must theorycraft. IF you scout robo bay around the time you start your starport (which i do/if i see robo, i still just make vikings), you'll have ~6 vikings by the time the 2base colossus all-in happens. You will also have 6 barracks of production. Yes you will lose to it sometimes, but not the majority of the time. The emphasis of this build is to scrap by until 3 bases are saturated. (drop.sc/116444) In this replay my opponent goes for the 2base colossus attack (not all-in because he somehow only has 1 colossus), I have 4 vikings and a medivac along with 6 barracks of production by the time he attacks me. On February 21 2012 06:47 vaderseven wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. Ya this build def goes out way too far. It basically assumes the toss does double forge. Of all my TvP's I've played, only 1 has gone Double Forge (And I wasn't even doing this build). I manage to fair more than 60% winrate with this build, with almost all games going past the 16minute mark. Please try the build before you bash it. I just thought I'd come in here and offer some advice: If you're going for a quick third, you really shouldn't be rushing to spend all this gas and tech to marauders. A 1 rax FE without gas is definitely the best. The reason you open with a Marauder Expand is to hit a quick stim timing off 2 base or because you want to be a baller and kill a dude's scouting poke. You don't do it to take a quick third and get crushed by any sort of quick tech. I think you should take a moment to listen to what V7 and Monk have to say, as these guys basically know what's up. That being said, let me break down your replay for you. You play against a low Diamond protoss who goes for a 2 gate expo and attacks you with a gateway army supporting a single colossus at the 13:00 mark while expanding. This is not a 2 base colossus all-in and this game doesn't represent an adequate defense of a 2-base colossus all-in.. I take security in Tech, which if you think about it, that is what Protoss does every game (except PvP luls). I know this may be on the more extreme side, but why not, 60-70% of the Protoss's out there are Passive players who just survive until lategame. Terran has no real use for gas before medivac's/ghosts, and there is usually 3 gas's just sitting around until you get said units. I figured, if i have around the same number of workers that the Protoss has the WHOLE game why is it I'm only on 1-2 gas, while they usually have 4 on 2base? I knew I was already going Bio, so upgrades seemed the way to go. After a few games of just going 2 base 6rax into 3rd, I realized I was rolling everything between 9-12 minutes the Protoss was throwing at me. I decided just to get an earlier 3rd. Which obviously works for me or else I wouldn't have written this guide.
I wouldn't write a guide just because something "works for me". You write a guide because you think it will work for other people. Relying on your opponents to not all-in against a quick third is unwise. If you can't adequately address these claims, and replay a build of you holding a 1 colossus attack that expos and say that that demonstrates the build's watertightness against a 2 base colossus all-in, I don't believe that qualifies as a solid defense of the build's water-tightness.
I understand V7 and Monk are better players than me, but their posts make it seem like my build is incredibly fragile. Which it isn't. Sure it will die 50% of the time a Protoss does a 2Base All-in, but how often does a Protoss do a 2base all-in? Less than 10% of the time for sure. IF they would try the build, THEN say it just plainly dies to a 2base all-in, I would respect that, however they are just blatantly stating it dies to X after a quick glance.
I think this build will die much more than 50% of the time against a 2-base all-in, and I think that a protoss could easily scout a quick third and choose to execute the all-in.
It's worth noting that most all "quick third" builds delay their gas mining to get the third base up more quickly, and are usually producing marines out of a lot of rax to defend the early gateway based all-ins (and allins that include warp prisms, immortals, etc). The quicker your third gets up, the quicker it pays for itself. I do not like the idea of mining and spending all this gas and delaying your third, opening a timing window like that.
EDIT: I also don't like the delayed tech and the buttloads of marauders. I think after an initial 2 marauders with a concussive expand you need to be making marines and getting ready for your 2 base stim all-in.
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United States8476 Posts
On February 21 2012 08:36 iTzSnypah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 08:16 Blazinghand wrote:On February 21 2012 08:04 iTzSnypah wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. I don't know why you must theorycraft. IF you scout robo bay around the time you start your starport (which i do/if i see robo, i still just make vikings), you'll have ~6 vikings by the time the 2base colossus all-in happens. You will also have 6 barracks of production. Yes you will lose to it sometimes, but not the majority of the time. The emphasis of this build is to scrap by until 3 bases are saturated. (drop.sc/116444) In this replay my opponent goes for the 2base colossus attack (not all-in because he somehow only has 1 colossus), I have 4 vikings and a medivac along with 6 barracks of production by the time he attacks me. On February 21 2012 06:47 vaderseven wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. Ya this build def goes out way too far. It basically assumes the toss does double forge. Of all my TvP's I've played, only 1 has gone Double Forge (And I wasn't even doing this build). I manage to fair more than 60% winrate with this build, with almost all games going past the 16minute mark. Please try the build before you bash it. I just thought I'd come in here and offer some advice: If you're going for a quick third, you really shouldn't be rushing to spend all this gas and tech to marauders. A 1 rax FE without gas is definitely the best. The reason you open with a Marauder Expand is to hit a quick stim timing off 2 base or because you want to be a baller and kill a dude's scouting poke. You don't do it to take a quick third and get crushed by any sort of quick tech. I think you should take a moment to listen to what V7 and Monk have to say, as these guys basically know what's up. That being said, let me break down your replay for you. You play against a low Diamond protoss who goes for a 2 gate expo and attacks you with a gateway army supporting a single colossus at the 13:00 mark while expanding. This is not a 2 base colossus all-in and this game doesn't represent an adequate defense of a 2-base colossus all-in.. I take security in Tech, which if you think about it, that is what Protoss does every game (except PvP luls). I know this may be on the more extreme side, but why not, 60-70% of the Protoss's out there are Passive players who just survive until lategame. Terran has no real use for gas before medivac's/ghosts, and there is usually 3 gas's just sitting around until you get said units. I figured, if i have around the same number of workers that the Protoss has the WHOLE game why is it I'm only on 1-2 gas, while they usually have 4 on 2base? I knew I was already going Bio, so upgrades seemed the way to go. After a few games of just going 2 base 6rax into 3rd, I realized I was rolling everything between 9-12 minutes the Protoss was throwing at me. I decided just to get an earlier 3rd. Which obviously works for me or else I wouldn't have written this guide. I understand V7 and Monk are better players than me, but their posts make it seem like my build is incredibly fragile. Which it isn't. Sure it will die 50% of the time a Protoss does a 2Base All-in, but how often does a Protoss do a 2base all-in? Less than 10% of the time for sure. IF they would try the build, THEN say it just plainly dies to a 2base all-in, I would respect that, however they are just blatantly stating it dies to X after a quick glance.
I watched that replay and your opponent went a 2 gas 2 gate expand into a 1 colossi push with a 3rd behind it at 13 minutes. He also has 3 gates and 60 probes. That's nowhere close to a 2 base colossi allin.
You took the most greedy terran build there is currently and made it both less economical and less safe at the same time. After watching your replay and seeing you go mass marurder with 0 bunkers, 3 techlabs, and a cc in front of your base, I'm confident in saying that you will die to EVERY well executed protoss allin. You need marines in bunkers to hold off gateway or immortal allins, not maruders. The only reason you've been surviving is that your opponents haven't been executing well at your level.
Why do we have to try the build before commenting on it? It's your burden to prove that the build works against those allins. That is, it's your job to find someone to 2 base allin you and test if you can hold it when you present a new build.
You still haven't addressed my concerns that this build had no real benefits over either a 1 rax gasless expand or a reactor expand.
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I don't understand the relevance of the conc shell at all? It's purely for defending the zealot/stalker poke? You can defend that perfectly easily with just marines. Marines are just plain awesome early game, so why you would delay your expo just to get conc shell is beyond me.
Factory after your third? Seriously?
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On February 21 2012 08:36 iTzSnypah wrote:IF they would try the build, THEN say it just plainly dies to a 2base all-in, I would respect that, however they are just blatantly stating it dies to X after a quick glance.
Respectfully, a quick glance is just wrong terminology. When I was a Terran player, 1 rax and 2 rax expands were my bread and butter and I tried litterally 10s if not 100s of different variations of those builds. If I saw a pro gamer replay of a new way to expand off 1 rax you can bet I was going to test it on ladder and in customs. Your build blindly commits to 3 specific things that bother me.
1. Late Factory (not just after 4-5 rax late, but VERY late)
2. 2 Engi Bays
3. Fast 3rd CC
These 3 things each leave you weak in certain ways and strong in certain ways. The result of those 3 added with each other is a large bio force with decent upgrade and very slow medivacs and/or vikings. You force will tend to be smaller at the 8-12 minute timing and from there it will become larger as your 3rd base kicks in. The problem with this is that you are VERY open to the timings that require either bunkers with marines (immortal allins and gateway allins [tend to hit on the earlier side of your weak moment[) or vikings (colsi all ins [tend to hit with 2 colsi and range towards the end of your weak timing]). Given equal execution on both players, the protoss player should win if he does a build intending to hit during that broad timing.
If the toss is going for a build that is about defending until 3 bases and 3/3 upgrades with lots of tech you will find he doesn't do anything to punish your build until after your upgrades, 3rd base, and delayed starport tech have time to kick in. The only build that is fairly common that I see that does this is the 2 forge after 3 gate + robo style.
On February 21 2012 08:53 NrGmonk wrote:
You need marines in bunkers to hold off gateway or immortal allins, not maruders. The only reason you've been surviving is that your opponents haven't been executing well at your level.
You still haven't addressed my concerns that this build had no real benefits over either a 1 rax gasless expand or a reactor expand.
These are extremely valid points. The part about marines is 100% true.
On February 21 2012 08:04 iTzSnypah wrote:
Of all my TvP's I've played, only 1 has gone Double Forge (And I wasn't even doing this build). I manage to fair more than 60% winrate with this build, with almost all games going past the 16minute mark. Please try the build before you bash it.
I have tried styles like this many times and my main TvP style was centered on different reactive plays after opening with a fast single eng and adding a fast 2nd one. It is very similar to this style. This style takes advantage of a toss that is unable to punish the rather large investment that you make into a 3rd CC and 2 engi bays before the 9:30 mark. The payoff from those items happens to come rather late. There is several builds that will hit timings that will out right kill this. Immortal pushes, 6-7 Gate pushes, 2 base colsi all-ins, chargelot archon all ins that hit
There is a very common toss style that your build blind counters. A protoss that gets 3 gates, a robo, and 2 forges will lack ANY way to punish your greed. You will in fact be avoiding most of the strs of that build. If you were to find a fancy timing where you try to confirm the double forge build and segway into this build it would be an amazing addition to your standard play. I suspect that the timing of your engi bays doesn't really allow for that from the replays I watched.
I am sorry to say that until you present evidence of well executed 6/7 gate all-ins, Immortal pushes, and especially the 2 base colsi all ins monk mentioned I will conclude (based on both the BO your OP has and on the replays you submitted) that your build is a build that is not based on a sound decisions from scouting information and is in fact a style that happens to get you an army (you will win vs someone that you macro better than, that is not strategy that is mechanics) and does blind counter the double forge after 3 gate / robo while not giving you a reliable way to scout it.
It has a very nice flow to it and you seem to have really worked out the economy timings and such but I just don't see an elegance to the strategy side of it that makes me say this is a safe reactive macro build.
I am chosing to ignore the exact opening you do (the gas on 16 tech lab expand) but I will go ahead and say that it leaves you behind in every sense of the word compared to every opening I have tested. I was never able to say AH this opening has sick econ or is rock solid safe. It was middle of the road in the bad sense of the phrase.
Please, take this as CONSTRUCTIVE advice!
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On February 21 2012 08:36 iTzSnypah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 08:16 Blazinghand wrote:On February 21 2012 08:04 iTzSnypah wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. I don't know why you must theorycraft. IF you scout robo bay around the time you start your starport (which i do/if i see robo, i still just make vikings), you'll have ~6 vikings by the time the 2base colossus all-in happens. You will also have 6 barracks of production. Yes you will lose to it sometimes, but not the majority of the time. The emphasis of this build is to scrap by until 3 bases are saturated. (drop.sc/116444) In this replay my opponent goes for the 2base colossus attack (not all-in because he somehow only has 1 colossus), I have 4 vikings and a medivac along with 6 barracks of production by the time he attacks me. On February 21 2012 06:47 vaderseven wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. Ya this build def goes out way too far. It basically assumes the toss does double forge. Of all my TvP's I've played, only 1 has gone Double Forge (And I wasn't even doing this build). I manage to fair more than 60% winrate with this build, with almost all games going past the 16minute mark. Please try the build before you bash it. I just thought I'd come in here and offer some advice: If you're going for a quick third, you really shouldn't be rushing to spend all this gas and tech to marauders. A 1 rax FE without gas is definitely the best. The reason you open with a Marauder Expand is to hit a quick stim timing off 2 base or because you want to be a baller and kill a dude's scouting poke. You don't do it to take a quick third and get crushed by any sort of quick tech. I think you should take a moment to listen to what V7 and Monk have to say, as these guys basically know what's up. That being said, let me break down your replay for you. You play against a low Diamond protoss who goes for a 2 gate expo and attacks you with a gateway army supporting a single colossus at the 13:00 mark while expanding. This is not a 2 base colossus all-in and this game doesn't represent an adequate defense of a 2-base colossus all-in.. I take security in Tech, which if you think about it, that is what Protoss does every game (except PvP luls). I know this may be on the more extreme side, but why not, 60-70% of the Protoss's out there are Passive players who just survive until lategame. Terran has no real use for gas before medivac's/ghosts, and there is usually 3 gas's just sitting around until you get said units. I figured, if i have around the same number of workers that the Protoss has the WHOLE game why is it I'm only on 1-2 gas, while they usually have 4 on 2base? I knew I was already going Bio, so upgrades seemed the way to go. After a few games of just going 2 base 6rax into 3rd, I realized I was rolling everything between 9-12 minutes the Protoss was throwing at me. I decided just to get an earlier 3rd. Which obviously works for me or else I wouldn't have written this guide. I understand V7 and Monk are better players than me, but their posts make it seem like my build is incredibly fragile. Which it isn't. Sure it will die 50% of the time a Protoss does a 2Base All-in, but how often does a Protoss do a 2base all-in? Less than 10% of the time for sure. IF they would try the build, THEN say it just plainly dies to a 2base all-in, I would respect that, however they are just blatantly stating it dies to X after a quick glance.
Okay, I hate to be that guy, but it's because you're playing crappy players, and probably not playing enough to get a good enough sample size.
You aren't at a level where people actually know what they're doing, and why. And if they do, they can't control it. And if they can, they can't make it fast enough. No one has it together in the lower leagues, it's why you're there.
There are a myriad of builds, both all in and not, that would absolutely crush your opening. You'd have to bunker, which offsets your timing on everything else. If you cut the CC in at same time, your unit count is so low you couldn't hold a K4G. By taking double ebay, +1/+1, and a 3rd CC you have to get at least 2-3 gas to support marauders/upgrades/and tech. So count them in, 150 minerals. 200/200 for upgrades, 250 for ebays. 400 for CC. That's 1000/200 you had to put into NOT your army. Any 5gate, 6 gate, 3 gate robo, 4 gate warp prism, 3 gate VR, 7 gate all in, 5 gate robo press, 2 base collsai all in.
The list goes on. You have such a low unit count that ONLY a 100% passive protoss, not using their OB to see no units, and double upgrades would not tack on 2-3 more gates, and get out collsai asap to win the game. With an early third, a proxy pylon + warp in/warp prism harass as they pressure the front would decimate you, as you cannot cover enough at once with such a low unit count.
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On February 21 2012 10:23 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 08:36 iTzSnypah wrote:On February 21 2012 08:16 Blazinghand wrote:On February 21 2012 08:04 iTzSnypah wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. I don't know why you must theorycraft. IF you scout robo bay around the time you start your starport (which i do/if i see robo, i still just make vikings), you'll have ~6 vikings by the time the 2base colossus all-in happens. You will also have 6 barracks of production. Yes you will lose to it sometimes, but not the majority of the time. The emphasis of this build is to scrap by until 3 bases are saturated. (drop.sc/116444) In this replay my opponent goes for the 2base colossus attack (not all-in because he somehow only has 1 colossus), I have 4 vikings and a medivac along with 6 barracks of production by the time he attacks me. On February 21 2012 06:47 vaderseven wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. Ya this build def goes out way too far. It basically assumes the toss does double forge. Of all my TvP's I've played, only 1 has gone Double Forge (And I wasn't even doing this build). I manage to fair more than 60% winrate with this build, with almost all games going past the 16minute mark. Please try the build before you bash it. I just thought I'd come in here and offer some advice: If you're going for a quick third, you really shouldn't be rushing to spend all this gas and tech to marauders. A 1 rax FE without gas is definitely the best. The reason you open with a Marauder Expand is to hit a quick stim timing off 2 base or because you want to be a baller and kill a dude's scouting poke. You don't do it to take a quick third and get crushed by any sort of quick tech. I think you should take a moment to listen to what V7 and Monk have to say, as these guys basically know what's up. That being said, let me break down your replay for you. You play against a low Diamond protoss who goes for a 2 gate expo and attacks you with a gateway army supporting a single colossus at the 13:00 mark while expanding. This is not a 2 base colossus all-in and this game doesn't represent an adequate defense of a 2-base colossus all-in.. I take security in Tech, which if you think about it, that is what Protoss does every game (except PvP luls). I know this may be on the more extreme side, but why not, 60-70% of the Protoss's out there are Passive players who just survive until lategame. Terran has no real use for gas before medivac's/ghosts, and there is usually 3 gas's just sitting around until you get said units. I figured, if i have around the same number of workers that the Protoss has the WHOLE game why is it I'm only on 1-2 gas, while they usually have 4 on 2base? I knew I was already going Bio, so upgrades seemed the way to go. After a few games of just going 2 base 6rax into 3rd, I realized I was rolling everything between 9-12 minutes the Protoss was throwing at me. I decided just to get an earlier 3rd. Which obviously works for me or else I wouldn't have written this guide. I understand V7 and Monk are better players than me, but their posts make it seem like my build is incredibly fragile. Which it isn't. Sure it will die 50% of the time a Protoss does a 2Base All-in, but how often does a Protoss do a 2base all-in? Less than 10% of the time for sure. IF they would try the build, THEN say it just plainly dies to a 2base all-in, I would respect that, however they are just blatantly stating it dies to X after a quick glance. Okay, I hate to be that guy, but it's because you're playing crappy players, and probably not playing enough to get a good enough sample size. You aren't at a level where people actually know what they're doing, and why. And if they do, they can't control it. And if they can, they can't make it fast enough. No one has it together in the lower leagues, it's why you're there. There are a myriad of builds, both all in and not, that would absolutely crush your opening. You'd have to bunker, which offsets your timing on everything else. If you cut the CC in at same time, your unit count is so low you couldn't hold a K4G. By taking double ebay, +1/+1, and a 3rd CC you have to get at least 2-3 gas to support marauders/upgrades/and tech. So count them in, 150 minerals. 200/200 for upgrades, 250 for ebays. 400 for CC. That's 1000/200 you had to put into NOT your army. Any 5gate, 6 gate, 3 gate robo, 4 gate warp prism, 3 gate VR, 7 gate all in, 5 gate robo press, 2 base collsai all in. The list goes on. You have such a low unit count that ONLY a 100% passive protoss, not using their OB to see no units, and double upgrades would not tack on 2-3 more gates, and get out collsai asap to win the game. With an early third, a proxy pylon + warp in/warp prism harass as they pressure the front would decimate you, as you cannot cover enough at once with such a low unit count.
Well, im platinum and all my replays are vs diamond or better... so i don't get your crappy opponents deal...so you like to theorycraft too. it seems everyone on tl does.
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i feel like the normal faster third cc might be safer vs alot of builds and better for your econ. You dont need to early conc shells with the bunker, unless you want to get a free stalker but then youve spent more money for the marauder+upgrade than the stalker and had to get your gas earlier. I think just getting the fast 3rd cc then going up to 5 barracks without any gas would be alot safer
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On February 21 2012 10:30 iTzSnypah wrote:
Well, im platinum and all my replays are vs diamond or better... so i don't get your crappy opponents deal...so you like to theorycraft too. it seems everyone on tl does.
A bad build order that ignores strats but allows you to make units without macro hic-ups will dominate at your level. No offense.
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On February 21 2012 10:30 iTzSnypah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 10:23 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 21 2012 08:36 iTzSnypah wrote:On February 21 2012 08:16 Blazinghand wrote:On February 21 2012 08:04 iTzSnypah wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. I don't know why you must theorycraft. IF you scout robo bay around the time you start your starport (which i do/if i see robo, i still just make vikings), you'll have ~6 vikings by the time the 2base colossus all-in happens. You will also have 6 barracks of production. Yes you will lose to it sometimes, but not the majority of the time. The emphasis of this build is to scrap by until 3 bases are saturated. (drop.sc/116444) In this replay my opponent goes for the 2base colossus attack (not all-in because he somehow only has 1 colossus), I have 4 vikings and a medivac along with 6 barracks of production by the time he attacks me. On February 21 2012 06:47 vaderseven wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. Ya this build def goes out way too far. It basically assumes the toss does double forge. Of all my TvP's I've played, only 1 has gone Double Forge (And I wasn't even doing this build). I manage to fair more than 60% winrate with this build, with almost all games going past the 16minute mark. Please try the build before you bash it. I just thought I'd come in here and offer some advice: If you're going for a quick third, you really shouldn't be rushing to spend all this gas and tech to marauders. A 1 rax FE without gas is definitely the best. The reason you open with a Marauder Expand is to hit a quick stim timing off 2 base or because you want to be a baller and kill a dude's scouting poke. You don't do it to take a quick third and get crushed by any sort of quick tech. I think you should take a moment to listen to what V7 and Monk have to say, as these guys basically know what's up. That being said, let me break down your replay for you. You play against a low Diamond protoss who goes for a 2 gate expo and attacks you with a gateway army supporting a single colossus at the 13:00 mark while expanding. This is not a 2 base colossus all-in and this game doesn't represent an adequate defense of a 2-base colossus all-in.. I take security in Tech, which if you think about it, that is what Protoss does every game (except PvP luls). I know this may be on the more extreme side, but why not, 60-70% of the Protoss's out there are Passive players who just survive until lategame. Terran has no real use for gas before medivac's/ghosts, and there is usually 3 gas's just sitting around until you get said units. I figured, if i have around the same number of workers that the Protoss has the WHOLE game why is it I'm only on 1-2 gas, while they usually have 4 on 2base? I knew I was already going Bio, so upgrades seemed the way to go. After a few games of just going 2 base 6rax into 3rd, I realized I was rolling everything between 9-12 minutes the Protoss was throwing at me. I decided just to get an earlier 3rd. Which obviously works for me or else I wouldn't have written this guide. I understand V7 and Monk are better players than me, but their posts make it seem like my build is incredibly fragile. Which it isn't. Sure it will die 50% of the time a Protoss does a 2Base All-in, but how often does a Protoss do a 2base all-in? Less than 10% of the time for sure. IF they would try the build, THEN say it just plainly dies to a 2base all-in, I would respect that, however they are just blatantly stating it dies to X after a quick glance. Okay, I hate to be that guy, but it's because you're playing crappy players, and probably not playing enough to get a good enough sample size. You aren't at a level where people actually know what they're doing, and why. And if they do, they can't control it. And if they can, they can't make it fast enough. No one has it together in the lower leagues, it's why you're there. There are a myriad of builds, both all in and not, that would absolutely crush your opening. You'd have to bunker, which offsets your timing on everything else. If you cut the CC in at same time, your unit count is so low you couldn't hold a K4G. By taking double ebay, +1/+1, and a 3rd CC you have to get at least 2-3 gas to support marauders/upgrades/and tech. So count them in, 150 minerals. 200/200 for upgrades, 250 for ebays. 400 for CC. That's 1000/200 you had to put into NOT your army. Any 5gate, 6 gate, 3 gate robo, 4 gate warp prism, 3 gate VR, 7 gate all in, 5 gate robo press, 2 base collsai all in. The list goes on. You have such a low unit count that ONLY a 100% passive protoss, not using their OB to see no units, and double upgrades would not tack on 2-3 more gates, and get out collsai asap to win the game. With an early third, a proxy pylon + warp in/warp prism harass as they pressure the front would decimate you, as you cannot cover enough at once with such a low unit count. Well, im platinum and all my replays are vs diamond or better... so i don't get your crappy opponents deal...so you like to theorycraft too. it seems everyone on tl does.
Hate to be that guy, but diamond players ARE crappy opponents. Hell, even masters (low-mid) are terrible. And come on, not everybody on TL theorycrafts. Let's not let this get silly, okay?
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On February 21 2012 10:30 iTzSnypah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 10:23 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 21 2012 08:36 iTzSnypah wrote:On February 21 2012 08:16 Blazinghand wrote:On February 21 2012 08:04 iTzSnypah wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. I don't know why you must theorycraft. IF you scout robo bay around the time you start your starport (which i do/if i see robo, i still just make vikings), you'll have ~6 vikings by the time the 2base colossus all-in happens. You will also have 6 barracks of production. Yes you will lose to it sometimes, but not the majority of the time. The emphasis of this build is to scrap by until 3 bases are saturated. (drop.sc/116444) In this replay my opponent goes for the 2base colossus attack (not all-in because he somehow only has 1 colossus), I have 4 vikings and a medivac along with 6 barracks of production by the time he attacks me. On February 21 2012 06:47 vaderseven wrote:On February 21 2012 06:03 NrGmonk wrote:
I don't understand the advantages of this over a 1 rax gasless expansion. You say you feel weak to 4 gate pressure, but the gasless expand should do better versus that, because it's more marine heavy and has faster 2nd/3rd rax. If you want to fake some other gas build, you might as well do a reactor expand.
If you follow this build exactly, there is also no way to hold off a 2 base colossi allin. Ya this build def goes out way too far. It basically assumes the toss does double forge. Of all my TvP's I've played, only 1 has gone Double Forge (And I wasn't even doing this build). I manage to fair more than 60% winrate with this build, with almost all games going past the 16minute mark. Please try the build before you bash it. I just thought I'd come in here and offer some advice: If you're going for a quick third, you really shouldn't be rushing to spend all this gas and tech to marauders. A 1 rax FE without gas is definitely the best. The reason you open with a Marauder Expand is to hit a quick stim timing off 2 base or because you want to be a baller and kill a dude's scouting poke. You don't do it to take a quick third and get crushed by any sort of quick tech. I think you should take a moment to listen to what V7 and Monk have to say, as these guys basically know what's up. That being said, let me break down your replay for you. You play against a low Diamond protoss who goes for a 2 gate expo and attacks you with a gateway army supporting a single colossus at the 13:00 mark while expanding. This is not a 2 base colossus all-in and this game doesn't represent an adequate defense of a 2-base colossus all-in.. I take security in Tech, which if you think about it, that is what Protoss does every game (except PvP luls). I know this may be on the more extreme side, but why not, 60-70% of the Protoss's out there are Passive players who just survive until lategame. Terran has no real use for gas before medivac's/ghosts, and there is usually 3 gas's just sitting around until you get said units. I figured, if i have around the same number of workers that the Protoss has the WHOLE game why is it I'm only on 1-2 gas, while they usually have 4 on 2base? I knew I was already going Bio, so upgrades seemed the way to go. After a few games of just going 2 base 6rax into 3rd, I realized I was rolling everything between 9-12 minutes the Protoss was throwing at me. I decided just to get an earlier 3rd. Which obviously works for me or else I wouldn't have written this guide. I understand V7 and Monk are better players than me, but their posts make it seem like my build is incredibly fragile. Which it isn't. Sure it will die 50% of the time a Protoss does a 2Base All-in, but how often does a Protoss do a 2base all-in? Less than 10% of the time for sure. IF they would try the build, THEN say it just plainly dies to a 2base all-in, I would respect that, however they are just blatantly stating it dies to X after a quick glance. Okay, I hate to be that guy, but it's because you're playing crappy players, and probably not playing enough to get a good enough sample size. You aren't at a level where people actually know what they're doing, and why. And if they do, they can't control it. And if they can, they can't make it fast enough. No one has it together in the lower leagues, it's why you're there. There are a myriad of builds, both all in and not, that would absolutely crush your opening. You'd have to bunker, which offsets your timing on everything else. If you cut the CC in at same time, your unit count is so low you couldn't hold a K4G. By taking double ebay, +1/+1, and a 3rd CC you have to get at least 2-3 gas to support marauders/upgrades/and tech. So count them in, 150 minerals. 200/200 for upgrades, 250 for ebays. 400 for CC. That's 1000/200 you had to put into NOT your army. Any 5gate, 6 gate, 3 gate robo, 4 gate warp prism, 3 gate VR, 7 gate all in, 5 gate robo press, 2 base collsai all in. The list goes on. You have such a low unit count that ONLY a 100% passive protoss, not using their OB to see no units, and double upgrades would not tack on 2-3 more gates, and get out collsai asap to win the game. With an early third, a proxy pylon + warp in/warp prism harass as they pressure the front would decimate you, as you cannot cover enough at once with such a low unit count. Well, im platinum and all my replays are vs diamond or better... so i don't get your crappy opponents deal...so you like to theorycraft too. it seems everyone on tl does.
I'm trolling on europe leveling my name. I encounter diamonds in my path. I just beat a zerg doing a reactor marine rush, into 4 CC build.
Diamonds are not good. At all. It's mean to say, but true. There's so much wrong with their play. Hell, there's a list of shit wrong with my play, and I draw GMs time to time.
You are defending a bad build to the death. It's not theorycraft, it's proven.
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Yea I'd agree holding 3 colo pushes is hard. Factory at 9:00= starport at 10:00= 2 vikings by 10:42? Double starport only gets you 4 vikings at 10:42, it seems like a tough timing. Any thoughts?
Edit: Sorry I didn't read all the comments and now realize that this build just isn't very good.
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I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly, but you 1rax FE into 3rax techlab, mix in marauders + conc+ stim, you then get a third CC, and then double ebays? I really think you assume that your opponent isn't going to 2base Immortal/Collosi bust you...Which would be fine in lower levels, since most platinum/diamond Protosses just turtle until 3/3, Templar and Collosi, but in masters and above, we like to do something called pressuring the front and scouting, which would reveal your lack of units and your obviously greedy play.
1rax FE into 4rax just seems so much scarier than this build, you can tech quickly while pressuring. In this build, you pray to God that your opponent doesn't all-in you.
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Just laughed so hard when he acted like playing vs diamond players made his build somehow more viable.
Anyway, I sent him a PM asking him to test this build vs my 2base allins as protoss.
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On February 21 2012 11:35 Pokebunny wrote:
Just laughed so hard when he acted like playing vs diamond players made his build somehow more viable.
Anyway, I sent him a PM asking him to test this build vs my 2base allins as protoss.
I didn't know you offraced...I've only seen you play T on your streams..
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On February 21 2012 11:37 Whatson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 11:35 Pokebunny wrote:
Just laughed so hard when he acted like playing vs diamond players made his build somehow more viable.
Anyway, I sent him a PM asking him to test this build vs my 2base allins as protoss. I didn't know you offraced...I've only seen you play T on your streams..
My offraces vs T are quite strong, high masters level. Other matchups not quite too much, but I'm pretty solid especially PvT.
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Honestly, to be very very clear, I would advise that the OP continue to ladder until he does start losing with this style and then adjust from there. This thread will most likely be full of good ideas that can be used to approach said changes.
There is no problem with laddering a style till it doesn't work then tweaking it at that point.
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EPT
