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On February 17 2012 15:03 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 13:01 Artline wrote:On February 17 2012 11:25 Ashakyre wrote:All this advice is good, but I wanted to add my own two cents as well. I'm a newly promoted Platinum Zerg, so I feel my perspective 100% unbiased. You would be well served to heed my words of wisdom. I would certainly agree that there are challenges in a late-game Zerg situation, and it's critical to use every tool at one's disposal to make things easier. What you need to remember is that Marines were never intended to have a long life-span in combat, hence Stim. When facing mass Brood Lords and infestors, you should focus on Marine production and attempt to overrun the Brood Lords in small, tactical attacks. Never send all your Marines at once, and try to focus on all the Brood Lords equally. This way you're not risking too many marines and, by attacking multiple Brood Lords at once, your chances that at least one of them will go down increase dramatically. Using small numbers of Marines to attack Brood Lords in the way should guarantee there are never more than 2 or 3 marines per Brood Lord. At this point in the game you should have a healthy bank of minerals so I recommend shifting the use of your M.U.L.E.S from an economic to a tactical role. Remember, you'll be using small numbers of Marines to take out Brood Lords, so speed is of the essence. Double or triple stim your Marines for maximum speed and engage the Brood Lords, dropping Mules to absorb broodling damage, and, to increase their longevity, repair one another as well. You'll need all of your Medevacs for the final stand at your base, so I highly advise against drops during this phase of the game, or during any phase for that matter. Clump up your Marines in front of your wall to maximize firepower, and focus down broodlings. Brood Lords have a preset kill limit, after which they morph into overlords, so all you really need to do is wait it out. Don't worry, it won't last very long. These tactics are difficult to execute and it will take you at least 50-60 games to master them. Play through the pain. When you reach the end of this process I promise you will have changed the results of this match-up favorably. If you are having difficulty, there is one final piece of advice I have for you. To be honest, I'm surprised no one mentioned it earlier. I'm not sure I should even discuss it openly, so I'm putting it into spoilers. + Show Spoiler + When the going gets very difficult, and you have no other options, there is one more unit in the Terran arsenal which has undeniable potential to alter the matchup: the Super Ghost. You need to be extremely careful how you use this unit. It costs no resources, takes up no supply, and guarantees victory. The Super Ghost will make the Zerg army disappear from your screen instantly. To access the Super Ghost, take a deep breath, and press F10 and then press N. The secret is to press it really fast, otherwise it won't work. The Zerg army will disappear from your screen, and a favorable result will have been achieved. It might take 20 or 30 tries to master this technique, and again, you have to play through the pain, but I guarantee a favorable result. This advice is guaranteed to be effective. I hope you follow it the next time we meet on ladder. Multiple stims have the same effect as a single stim, except the units will have multiples of 10 or 20 HP less. Wait nevermind, you definitely don't know what you're talking about. Anyway TvZ lategame is possible without ghost snipes at all. But if Zerg has so much income there's no point arguing about the composition being imbalanced. Getting 10+ broodlords 20+ corrupters isn't actually easy for a Zerg. It is amazing how bad people are at detecting satire. Getting one or two things is possible, but when every single point in the post is the exact opposite of what makes sense, you should be careful when replying.
hahaha loved it! :D
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Russian Federation473 Posts
As far as I can tell from watching proplayers, the only way to kill the Zerg in this situation is to choke his economy by drops.
Even ghosts lose to BL/infestor/queen/corruptor once there are 12+ Broodlords. Seeker missiles could be the answer if Terrans had the time and resources to accumulate enough Ravens with sufficient energy. Which they mostly don't have.
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On February 17 2012 15:36 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 14:13 Apaquin wrote:
Anyone else think its pretty neat that terran players are starting to actually have to think about and discuss strategy? Its almost like a single type of unit won't cut it for TvZ late game anymore, crazy stuff isn't it? Perhaps terrans will have to use different types of units at the same time and perhaps even switch units throughout the game! It seems like leaving terran so strong for so long has left the lower level terrans in the dark ages when it comes to strategy and adapting. This is the same flavor
of whining that zergs and protoss were really into 6 months ago.
"X is really strong in the lategame, how do I beat X?" Someday people will realize that there are an infinite number of legitimate answers to that question. Infinite? Cool. List 5 things zerg can do that beat mass ghost. After all, if there's infinite, it shouldn't be hard.
To name a few?
1. Do something different before mass ghosts come out.
2. Do something else different before mass ghosts come out
3. Do yet another thing different before mass ghosts come out
.
.
.
People don't like to remember the fact that a whole game has to take place before the late game unit combos come out. If you've set yourself up in a dominate position then there are 1000's of ways to beat mass ghost. Just as there are surely at least a 100 different ways to beat mass ghost if a zerg has reached that stage of the game with one of the infinite combinations of zerg unit compositions, base defenses, upgrades, etc, etc and is up against one of the infinite combinations of unit compositions, base defenses, upgrades the terran has when transitioning into mass ghost on map such and such. Maybe there are only 32 decent ways to beat mass ghost when a zerg is somewhat behind with whatever crap vs whatever crap a terran has. Its just that the question doesn't have any meaning without a huge backstory behind it, because there are literally an infinite number of ways a game could play out with a zerg beating mass ghosts.
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I'm being steamrolled lategame WITH ghosts. It's gonna be impossible to win vs. zerg if they nerf it 
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United States7483 Posts
On February 17 2012 04:55 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 04:53 TheV wrote:
Snipe is getting nerfed, not removed from the game.
You can still use ghosts.. Snipe is becoming useless to everything but infestors. That's why it becomes useless vs Broodlord/Infestor, because of the broodlord aspect.
You could just snipe/emp broodlords by running in with cloak, then using vikings to clear the sky. The main problem with using vikings is that they get chain fungaled, and terrans usually don't upgrade their air units while zerg does upgrade theirs.
Build vikings, upgrade them with your copious gas bank, and emp/snipe infestors so they can't fungal your vikings, and you'll do fine. Don't forget to nuke the broodlord army when he tries to engage too, to either kill it off or force them to back off while you drop.
Broodlord infestor isn't so nasty when you take the infestors out of the equation. Do what protoss does vs. this combo when the zerg spreads their broods and infestors so that mothership doesn't work: Feedback (or in your case snipe/emp) the infestors so your ground army can fight the broods head on.
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i heard ravens have point defense drones and a missle with high dmg and splash :D also i think BL are slow ^_^ terrans use you creativity :D find the way 
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On February 17 2012 14:25 jupiter6 wrote:
haha while i read this topic i get "zergs just need to use nydus" flashbacks
Well nydus is actually pretty good, and still relatively underused imo. With the creep though it isn't really needed that much(in a way that it was used in BW anyway, wish they would make it creep only and remove the OL creep spread, and ofc make it only cost minerals). All these suggestions how to counter BLs from non-terrans are still hurting my brain, a lot of them/most are just so stupid.
Suggestions such as: "Just snipe the infestors"... Because that wasn't being done before without avail. Like I said before mech -> many bases + nukage -> ravens is i think the best bet.
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man, you read this advice and flat out say you aren't going to try it... thats like me saying, hey marines kill me a lot, what kills marines? And they say speedbanes. but i say no, i play roach i dont want to use banes, omg! thinly veiled balance whine detected >_> and not even a replay
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Don't play mech unless you are going for some kind of 200/200 2 base attack. Start playing bio and practice your multitasking by playing drop heavy. We don't have the multasking and control of MMA but the same goes for the Zerg's we are playing daily on ladder so it kinda sorts itself out.
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On February 17 2012 17:28 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
man, you read this advice and flat out say you aren't going to try it... thats like me saying, hey marines kill me a lot, what kills marines? And they say speedbanes. but i say no, i play roach i dont want to use banes, omg! thinly veiled balance whine detected >_> and not even a replay
I'm guessing you're replying to me? If so, it is more like saying "well du'h, that was what I was doing already, how will 67% nerfed ghost do a better job than before when before it most of the times just barely got the job done, if it did at all?".
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Raven, pdd and seeker missle is strong against broodlord/ infestor but then it sucks against the ultra tech switch after trading the broodlord army... unless massively changes happened, raven will never be a likely composition for TvZ lategame... also the investment of infrastructure, time and ressources is too high... i will try to decide the game before the lategame, its getting harder an harder the longer the game takes against Z... and believe me guys, that will be not the last nerf to terran...
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On February 17 2012 15:39 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 13:45 brotosterone wrote:
I'm going to quote theognis: "focus on expansion denial rather than finding the "money mix" in unit composition." Realistically, that only works vs Zergs that have less multi-task than you. When you start playing the uber Zergs/Protosses that also have good multi-tasking and map awareness...they WILL get those expansions. The only reasons dropships were very effective before was because Terran players in general often times had better multi-task than Z/Ps but now Z/Ps have gotten better in general and better players have started to pick up Z/P so those 4 drops you did in 4 different locations...the Zerg is able to stop in all 4 locations at once (protosses too)-_- that's when the lategame issues begin to crop up and you do indeed have to find that "money mix" unit composition. This just in, when an opponent is as good as you are you have to work harder to do damage. More at 11.
Drops almost always require at least as much army supply to fend off at each location. Terran should have more army supply available than Zerg. If the other player is good enough to fend off all the drops with little tech/economy loss, maybe do something with the giant-ass army you still have leftover even with 40 supply of drops out on the map. If you're playing at a merely equal level to your opponent as opposed to better, you don't deserve a winrate above 50% anyways.
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I think you have to get a base advantage in the midgame, or, never engage the army on maps like Taldarim. On Antiga, you have to get the middle very quickly and just constantly contain the Zerg on 3 base. In this situation, Ultras won't be very good, and you won't have to worry about them too much. Now, you MUST overmake vikings and spread them. He won't have infinite fungals, and hopefully, you can zone out the mutas somewhat.
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On February 17 2012 17:09 Apaquin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 15:36 Elyvilon wrote:On February 17 2012 14:13 Apaquin wrote:
Anyone else think its pretty neat that terran players are starting to actually have to think about and discuss strategy? Its almost like a single type of unit won't cut it for TvZ late game anymore, crazy stuff isn't it? Perhaps terrans will have to use different types of units at the same time and perhaps even switch units throughout the game! It seems like leaving terran so strong for so long has left the lower level terrans in the dark ages when it comes to strategy and adapting. This is the same flavor
of whining that zergs and protoss were really into 6 months ago.
"X is really strong in the lategame, how do I beat X?" Someday people will realize that there are an infinite number of legitimate answers to that question. Infinite? Cool. List 5 things zerg can do that beat mass ghost. After all, if there's infinite, it shouldn't be hard. To name a few? 1. Do something different before mass ghosts come out. 2. Do something else different before mass ghosts come out 3. Do yet another thing different before mass ghosts come out . . . People don't like to remember the fact that a whole game has to take place before the late game unit combos come out. If you've set yourself up in a dominate position then there are 1000's of ways to beat mass ghost. Just as there are surely at least a 100 different ways to beat mass ghost if a zerg has reached that stage of the game with one of the infinite combinations of zerg unit compositions, base defenses, upgrades, etc, etc and is up against one of the infinite combinations of unit compositions, base defenses, upgrades the terran has when transitioning into mass ghost on map such and such. Maybe there are only 32 decent ways to beat mass ghost when a zerg is somewhat behind with whatever crap vs whatever crap a terran has. Its just that the question doesn't have any meaning without a huge backstory behind it, because there are literally an infinite number of ways a game could play out with a zerg beating mass ghosts.
Wait, so you're telling me if the terran ever does get mass ghosts, it's okay that they should straight out win? Because you never answered the question, and just kept saying that there are ways to do it. Yes, ideally zerg won't let them get there, but it isn't always possible.
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It takes 5 base gas to operate broodlird / infestor properly, by this point in the game the Zerg has undoubtably survived multiple pushes and a boatload of drops. Why do you think there should be an easy solution to broodlord infestor, when it is the only cost efficient comp zerg gets all game?
Your obsession with mech is telling. First, don't be spoiled, not every composition is suited for 100% of occasions. Yeah, you're going to have to swap away somewhat from the easiest composition on record, deal with it.
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terrans QQing is so funny
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On February 18 2012 00:28 ThomasHobbes wrote:
It takes 5 base gas to operate broodlird / infestor properly, by this point in the game the Zerg has undoubtably survived multiple pushes and a boatload of drops. Why do you think there should be an easy solution to broodlord infestor, when it is the only cost efficient comp zerg gets all game?
Your obsession with mech is telling. First, don't be spoiled, not every composition is suited for 100% of occasions. Yeah, you're going to have to swap away somewhat from the easiest composition on record, deal with it.
you can get it going from 4base as well and not every game is a laddergame in which people try to win asap, so they can queue again. (not that i disagree that terran can deal with it with a solid composition or abusing it's mobility)
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United States13143 Posts
On February 17 2012 17:09 Apaquin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 15:36 Elyvilon wrote:On February 17 2012 14:13 Apaquin wrote:
Anyone else think its pretty neat that terran players are starting to actually have to think about and discuss strategy? Its almost like a single type of unit won't cut it for TvZ late game anymore, crazy stuff isn't it? Perhaps terrans will have to use different types of units at the same time and perhaps even switch units throughout the game! It seems like leaving terran so strong for so long has left the lower level terrans in the dark ages when it comes to strategy and adapting. This is the same flavor
of whining that zergs and protoss were really into 6 months ago.
"X is really strong in the lategame, how do I beat X?" Someday people will realize that there are an infinite number of legitimate answers to that question. Infinite? Cool. List 5 things zerg can do that beat mass ghost. After all, if there's infinite, it shouldn't be hard. To name a few? 1. Do something different before mass ghosts come out. 2. Do something else different before mass ghosts come out 3. Do yet another thing different before mass ghosts come out . . . People don't like to remember the fact that a whole game has to take place before the late game unit combos come out. If you've set yourself up in a dominate position then there are 1000's of ways to beat mass ghost. Just as there are surely at least a 100 different ways to beat mass ghost if a zerg has reached that stage of the game with one of the infinite combinations of zerg unit compositions, base defenses, upgrades, etc, etc and is up against one of the infinite combinations of unit compositions, base defenses, upgrades the terran has when transitioning into mass ghost on map such and such. Maybe there are only 32 decent ways to beat mass ghost when a zerg is somewhat behind with whatever crap vs whatever crap a terran has. Its just that the question doesn't have any meaning without a huge backstory behind it, because there are literally an infinite number of ways a game could play out with a zerg beating mass ghosts.
So there's two options here: either there are a ton of options to beat it, in which case it doesn't need to be nerfed, or you're referring to the "don't let them get there" answer, which zergs have informed me is not a legitimate answer to mass ghosts(although some of those same players seem to think it is a legitimate answer to lategame zerg, oddly).
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Blizzard should give a speed bonus to BCs in this patch as well for even more epic TvZ lategame.
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On February 17 2012 13:49 Tump wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 04:46 ToastieNL wrote:On February 17 2012 04:39 Psilo wrote:
I got owned by corruptor/BL's yesterday and i could use some pointers too. (i am terran) Seems like everybody is, the only answer I have seen up to today is Snipe, but that's getting nerfed. You realize because something is getting nerfed doesn't mean you can't use it anymore....right? Colossus got nerfed like 3 times in beta. Does that mean Protoss isn't going to use Colossus anymore? Infestors Fungal Growth got nerfed. Does that mean Zerg isn't going to use Infestors anymore? Honestly, this thread is pointless. Your post history is filled with similar posts. You're a Diamond Terran. Go play ladder games and get good at the game. When you're at the top level, you're qualified to whine about game balance. Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 13:45 brotosterone wrote:
I'm going to quote theognis: "focus on expansion denial rather than finding the "money mix" in unit composition." This quote speaks so much truth it hurts that this thread even exists. The Ghost is still the same guy for the job. It just won't be as easy. Play the game.
I suggest playing terran and then realizing how dumb your criticism is.
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EPT
