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I've already started to develop the answer which is raven accumulation + hsms + ghosts as well.
This will be news to 99% of people on the forums and elsewhere but - ghosts did not need a nerf in the first place because Zerg players already figured out how to deal with it in the CURRENT patch - they just make MORE broodlords, MORE infestors, and MORE corruptors.
So basically, there's his misconception right now that mass ghost is good because no one actually plays into lategame much or just sees a few players do it a couple times with ghosts in a tournament...but mass ghost no longer works even right now in the current lategame TvZ.
It's actually become very terrible to mass ghosts lategame because as I just said, if Zerg sees you do this they morph more corruptors into broods making you even more susceptible to fungal because all your ghosts have to be in a small radii to snipe broods fast enough to matter. Morphing even more broods vs a mass ghost user also makes it take even more snipes to do any damage at all to the brood count. Lategame TvZ is indeed looking just as difficult as lategame TvP now that Zergs have figured out they have a protoss-like deathball where they just only mass corrptor+broodlord with 10-20 infestors under it.
The answer I've developed is ghost mech + ravens, with emphasis on raven accumulation. Brood + corruptor + infestor can take on infinity vikings because of fungal growth. Pure vikings just is terrible. The only thing that can compete with the brood/corruptor/infestor deathball is a raven cloud of your own with 6-12 HSM rdy to use. You still have to get ghosts but not for snipe - now their sole purpose is to EMP and take away as much infestor energy as possible so that after your ravens launch HSMs they do not get chain fungalled, and you can preserve them while maintaining max supply.
It's incredibly difficult to execute this style, to learn it, and to control it, which is why i forsee next patch there will be even less Terran players playing because the race is already very difficult to play in lategame right now vs infestor/brood/corruptor and protoss bankroll + deathball situations lategame...
So yes, accumulating ravens just like science vessels is very good, the only problem is even this dies if zerg hits even 1 fungal growth which is a bit ridiculous. Ghosts were the go-to option because they were sturdier than ravens against ultras.
If they are going to nerf snipe, they should look into making buffs/indirect buffs to the raven by changing a few simple things:
a) Reduce the cost of the raven energy upgrade, the HSM upgrade, and the other raven upgrade.
b) Reduce the cost of HSM to 75 nrg, and remove the raven energy upgrade from the game. This way a raven with full energy will have two hunter seeker missiles available but will not immediately start with a HSM. It would turn the raven much more into a science vessel which is a good thing for the game, and it would make it much more usable, and less susceptible to even feedback in TvP.
c) Reduce the gas cost of the raven to 175 vespene gas. Making them more accessible.
Those are some ideas because even ravens are very flimsy in lategame right now because of how easy is to fungal growth. But ravens are the answer to corruptor/brood/infestor with 5-10 ghosts available to hit EMPs on infestors.
It's just that no one below grandmasters/high masters or someone that practices this a lot will ever be able to make use of this. But yes, start using ravens they are good.
And yes, defensive nukes are also good but you already have to have defensive planetaries/positions set up to make use of those.
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I don't think fungal is a problem if you make ravens as long as you don't clump them all together like an idiot. I like the idea of ravens though, whether it's in addition to marine/tank or mech (as well as ghosts if you actually have the infrastructure+economy). It's not something new though, I've seen a number of players doing this kind of thing late game already. I see it pretty frequently when I watch DemusliM stream TvZ and it goes to late game to name someone off the top of my head.
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On February 17 2012 10:03 avilo wrote:
I've already started to develop the answer which is raven accumulation + hsms + ghosts as well.
This will be news to 99% of people on the forums and elsewhere but - ghosts did not need a nerf in the first place because Zerg players already figured out how to deal with it in the CURRENT patch - they just make MORE broodlords, MORE infestors, and MORE corruptors.
So basically, there's his misconception right now that mass ghost is good because no one actually plays into lategame much or just sees a few players do it a couple times with ghosts in a tournament...but mass ghost no longer works even right now in the current lategame TvZ.
Did you try getting cloak? BL's are really slow, you can snipe any overseer's then send small groups of ghosts in to snipe infestors/BL's no problem.
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You can't beat late game zerg, simple as that.... I am a high masters zerg and I can tell you that brood/festor cannot be beat. Maybe a few corruptors thrown in there to deal with vikings, but its impossible.
Same goes for protoss.
Zerg late game = unstoppable for all races, even zvz.
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You guys do understand that Broodlord/Infestor requires 20 minutes and 5 expos to get up and running, right? How is ghost viking not a hard counter to this btw?
As a zerg, by the time I get to broodlords it means I already crushed 1-2 pushes that allowed me to expo up and get extra gases + survive enough to get Hive and Greater Spire. Economically you're so far ahead that the terran can't really get a decent amount of vikings and ghosts up, hence why it seems imbalanced.
Whining about broodlord infestor is like whining about you A-moving into a protoss deathball. If your opponent gets that sort of army composition up you need great positioning and extra micro, no way around it.
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Whilst it's true that Ghost Snipe has been nerfed, it is by no means no longer viable. Ghosts are still a viable option, but you're gonna have to work them into your build earlier, conserve their mana, and maybe build more. The mana conservation is a the important part, I think. They are certainly still viable, but they won't be as game ending as they were before.
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I'm loling at all the terrans raging about an insignificant change. Go Marine Tank (and when I say Marine i mean like 90+ marines) and get ghosts for the late game. drop everywhere with your trillion marines, set up good early pushes with your tanks, deny bases, and cloak EMP infestors. if you really feel at the late game that you cant beat the broods then make some vikings or BCs.
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On February 17 2012 10:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 10:03 avilo wrote:
I've already started to develop the answer which is raven accumulation + hsms + ghosts as well.
This will be news to 99% of people on the forums and elsewhere but - ghosts did not need a nerf in the first place because Zerg players already figured out how to deal with it in the CURRENT patch - they just make MORE broodlords, MORE infestors, and MORE corruptors.
So basically, there's his misconception right now that mass ghost is good because no one actually plays into lategame much or just sees a few players do it a couple times with ghosts in a tournament...but mass ghost no longer works even right now in the current lategame TvZ. Did you try getting cloak? BL's are really slow, you can snipe any overseer's then send small groups of ghosts in to snipe infestors/BL's no problem.
That does not work.
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On February 17 2012 10:43 kBeatz wrote:
I'm loling at all the terrans raging about an insignificant change. Go Marine Tank (and when I say Marine i mean like 90+ marines) and get ghosts for the late game. drop everywhere with your trillion marines, set up good early pushes with your tanks, deny bases, and cloak EMP infestors. if you really feel at the late game that you cant beat the broods then make some vikings or BCs.
It's a pretty significant change. Brood deathball can kill infinite marine+tanks. That's why Terran learned to use ghosts, because without them you can't even scratch into the deathball. Maybe Terrans will have to do more suicidal drops...not sure.
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On February 17 2012 10:43 kBeatz wrote:
I'm loling at all the terrans raging about an insignificant change. Go Marine Tank (and when I say Marine i mean like 90+ marines) and get ghosts for the late game. drop everywhere with your trillion marines, set up good early pushes with your tanks, deny bases, and cloak EMP infestors. if you really feel at the late game that you cant beat the broods then make some vikings or BCs.
It sounded like you semi knew what you were talking about until you mentioned BCs. wat? They're going to have corrupters if you go BCs dude :o
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On February 17 2012 11:02 Grobyc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 10:43 kBeatz wrote:
I'm loling at all the terrans raging about an insignificant change. Go Marine Tank (and when I say Marine i mean like 90+ marines) and get ghosts for the late game. drop everywhere with your trillion marines, set up good early pushes with your tanks, deny bases, and cloak EMP infestors. if you really feel at the late game that you cant beat the broods then make some vikings or BCs. It sounded like you semi knew what you were talking about until you mentioned BCs. wat? They're going to have corrupters if you go BCs dude :o
I reckon it's going to have to be:
marine/tank in the early/mid game
transition into ravens on 3-4 bases
getting double upgrades for air,
and then bc production
because P.D.D stops corrupter shots and upgraded BC's do stupid damage, and will nullify an ultra switch
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ravens and banshees help immensely hunter seeker missile absolutely destroys broodlords, auto turret walls help alot vs lings and PDDs demolish muta/corruptor for ultras unsieged tanks and more seeker missiles. Ravens are anti slow powerful units, and zerg late game is all about those slow powerful units.
spread out alot more, pay alot of attention, use banshees and ravens effectively. it helps ALOT ravens are pretty much ghosts with AOE snipes vs brood lords, and a zerg late game without brood lords vs terran mech is super difficult. you should only need a group of 8 at most ravens to dump HSM on the zerg army.
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On February 17 2012 11:06 Exstasy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 11:02 Grobyc wrote:On February 17 2012 10:43 kBeatz wrote:
I'm loling at all the terrans raging about an insignificant change. Go Marine Tank (and when I say Marine i mean like 90+ marines) and get ghosts for the late game. drop everywhere with your trillion marines, set up good early pushes with your tanks, deny bases, and cloak EMP infestors. if you really feel at the late game that you cant beat the broods then make some vikings or BCs. It sounded like you semi knew what you were talking about until you mentioned BCs. wat? They're going to have corrupters if you go BCs dude :o I reckon it's going to have to be: marine/tank in the early/mid game transition into ravens on 3-4 bases getting double upgrades for air, and then bc production because P.D.D stops corrupter shots and upgraded BC's do stupid damage, and will nullify an ultra switch
BC is really good if you're already significantly ahead, but otherwise it's pretty awful. BC damage is pathetic against upgraded corruptor, ultralisk or broodlord and yamato takes longer to recharge than it takes a zerg with a decent economy to remax.
battlecruiser is like what tier3 should be. not like silly zerg t3 where they can rush it at 15-20 minutes and be rediculously powerful.
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All this advice is good, but I wanted to add my own two cents as well. I'm a newly promoted Platinum Zerg, so I feel my perspective 100% unbiased. You would be well served to heed my words of wisdom.
I would certainly agree that there are challenges in a late-game Zerg situation, and it's critical to use every tool at one's disposal to make things easier. What you need to remember is that Marines were never intended to have a long life-span in combat, hence Stim. When facing mass Brood Lords and infestors, you should focus on Marine production and attempt to overrun the Brood Lords in small, tactical attacks. Never send all your Marines at once, and try to focus on all the Brood Lords equally. This way you're not risking too many marines and, by attacking multiple Brood Lords at once, your chances that at least one of them will go down increase dramatically. Using small numbers of Marines to attack Brood Lords in the way should guarantee there are never more than 2 or 3 marines per Brood Lord.
At this point in the game you should have a healthy bank of minerals so I recommend shifting the use of your M.U.L.E.S from an economic to a tactical role. Remember, you'll be using small numbers of Marines to take out Brood Lords, so speed is of the essence. Double or triple stim your Marines for maximum speed and engage the Brood Lords, dropping Mules to absorb broodling damage, and, to increase their longevity, repair one another as well.
You'll need all of your Medevacs for the final stand at your base, so I highly advise against drops during this phase of the game, or during any phase for that matter. Clump up your Marines in front of your wall to maximize firepower, and focus down broodlings. Brood Lords have a preset kill limit, after which they morph into overlords, so all you really need to do is wait it out. Don't worry, it won't last very long.
These tactics are difficult to execute and it will take you at least 50-60 games to master them. Play through the pain. When you reach the end of this process I promise you will have changed the results of this match-up favorably.
If you are having difficulty, there is one final piece of advice I have for you. To be honest, I'm surprised no one mentioned it earlier. I'm not sure I should even discuss it openly, so I'm putting it into spoilers.
+ Show Spoiler + When the going gets very difficult, and you have no other options, there is one more unit in the Terran arsenal which has undeniable potential to alter the matchup: the Super Ghost. You need to be extremely careful how you use this unit. It costs no resources, takes up no supply, and guarantees victory. The Super Ghost will make the Zerg army disappear from your screen instantly. To access the Super Ghost, take a deep breath, and press F10 and then press N. The secret is to press it really fast, otherwise it won't work. The Zerg army will disappear from your screen, and a favorable result will have been achieved. It might take 20 or 30 tries to master this technique, and again, you have to play through the pain, but I guarantee a favorable result.
This advice is guaranteed to be effective. I hope you follow it the next time we meet on ladder.
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On February 17 2012 11:25 Ashakyre wrote:All this advice is good, but I wanted to add my own two cents as well. I'm a newly promoted Platinum Zerg, so I feel my perspective 100% unbiased. You would be well served to heed my words of wisdom. I would certainly agree that there are challenges in a late-game Zerg situation, and it's critical to use every tool at one's disposal to make things easier. What you need to remember is that Marines were never intended to have a long life-span in combat, hence Stim. When facing mass Brood Lords and infestors, you should focus on Marine production and attempt to overrun the Brood Lords in small, tactical attacks. Never send all your Marines at once, and try to focus on all the Brood Lords equally. This way you're not risking too many marines and, by attacking multiple Brood Lords at once, your chances that at least one of them will go down increase dramatically. Using small numbers of Marines to attack Brood Lords in the way should guarantee there are never more than 2 or 3 marines per Brood Lord. At this point in the game you should have a healthy bank of minerals so I recommend shifting the use of your M.U.L.E.S from an economic to a tactical role. Remember, you'll be using small numbers of Marines to take out Brood Lords, so speed is of the essence. Double or triple stim your Marines for maximum speed and engage the Brood Lords, dropping Mules to absorb broodling damage, and, to increase their longevity, repair one another as well. You'll need all of your Medevacs for the final stand at your base, so I highly advise against drops during this phase of the game, or during any phase for that matter. Clump up your Marines in front of your wall to maximize firepower, and focus down broodlings. Brood Lords have a preset kill limit, after which they morph into overlords, so all you really need to do is wait it out. Don't worry, it won't last very long. These tactics are difficult to execute and it will take you at least 50-60 games to master them. Play through the pain. When you reach the end of this process I promise you will have changed the results of this match-up favorably. If you are having difficulty, there is one final piece of advice I have for you. To be honest, I'm surprised no one mentioned it earlier. I'm not sure I should even discuss it openly, so I'm putting it into spoilers. + Show Spoiler + When the going gets very difficult, and you have no other options, there is one more unit in the Terran arsenal which has undeniable potential to alter the matchup: the Super Ghost. You need to be extremely careful how you use this unit. It costs no resources, takes up no supply, and guarantees victory. The Super Ghost will make the Zerg army disappear from your screen instantly. To access the Super Ghost, take a deep breath, and press F10 and then press N. The secret is to press it really fast, otherwise it won't work. The Zerg army will disappear from your screen, and a favorable result will have been achieved. It might take 20 or 30 tries to master this technique, and again, you have to play through the pain, but I guarantee a favorable result. This advice is guaranteed to be effective. I hope you follow it the next time we meet on ladder.
This right here is what I have been fearing. Why would you inform the terrans of this? NOW THEY WILL BE UNSTOPPABLE
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On February 17 2012 11:25 Ashakyre wrote:All this advice is good, but I wanted to add my own two cents as well. I'm a newly promoted Platinum Zerg, so I feel my perspective 100% unbiased. You would be well served to heed my words of wisdom. I would certainly agree that there are challenges in a late-game Zerg situation, and it's critical to use every tool at one's disposal to make things easier. What you need to remember is that Marines were never intended to have a long life-span in combat, hence Stim. When facing mass Brood Lords and infestors, you should focus on Marine production and attempt to overrun the Brood Lords in small, tactical attacks. Never send all your Marines at once, and try to focus on all the Brood Lords equally. This way you're not risking too many marines and, by attacking multiple Brood Lords at once, your chances that at least one of them will go down increase dramatically. Using small numbers of Marines to attack Brood Lords in the way should guarantee there are never more than 2 or 3 marines per Brood Lord. At this point in the game you should have a healthy bank of minerals so I recommend shifting the use of your M.U.L.E.S from an economic to a tactical role. Remember, you'll be using small numbers of Marines to take out Brood Lords, so speed is of the essence. Double or triple stim your Marines for maximum speed and engage the Brood Lords, dropping Mules to absorb broodling damage, and, to increase their longevity, repair one another as well. You'll need all of your Medevacs for the final stand at your base, so I highly advise against drops during this phase of the game, or during any phase for that matter. Clump up your Marines in front of your wall to maximize firepower, and focus down broodlings. Brood Lords have a preset kill limit, after which they morph into overlords, so all you really need to do is wait it out. Don't worry, it won't last very long. These tactics are difficult to execute and it will take you at least 50-60 games to master them. Play through the pain. When you reach the end of this process I promise you will have changed the results of this match-up favorably. If you are having difficulty, there is one final piece of advice I have for you. To be honest, I'm surprised no one mentioned it earlier. I'm not sure I should even discuss it openly, so I'm putting it into spoilers. + Show Spoiler + When the going gets very difficult, and you have no other options, there is one more unit in the Terran arsenal which has undeniable potential to alter the matchup: the Super Ghost. You need to be extremely careful how you use this unit. It costs no resources, takes up no supply, and guarantees victory. The Super Ghost will make the Zerg army disappear from your screen instantly. To access the Super Ghost, take a deep breath, and press F10 and then press N. The secret is to press it really fast, otherwise it won't work. The Zerg army will disappear from your screen, and a favorable result will have been achieved. It might take 20 or 30 tries to master this technique, and again, you have to play through the pain, but I guarantee a favorable result. This advice is guaranteed to be effective. I hope you follow it the next time we meet on ladder.
Multiple stims have the same effect as a single stim, except the units will have multiples of 10 or 20 HP less. Wait nevermind, you definitely don't know what you're talking about.
Anyway TvZ lategame is possible without ghost snipes at all. But if Zerg has so much income there's no point arguing about the composition being imbalanced. Getting 10+ broodlords 20+ corrupters isn't actually easy for a Zerg.
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you need to deny bases as well as you can while you get yours up in mech, you need to drop
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don't blindly open mech. consider the fact that terran all of a sudden are not afforded the luxury of winning with whatever build they decided to use before the game starts. learn to react to what you see. being shocked zergs are able to counter mech is kind of naive. i guess just be grateful counters weren't something you had to worry about before now. learn how they work and i promise you won't have a problem.
also a point needs to be made about the fact that EMP is by far the more effective tool of the ghost. in all this over-reaction it's effectiveness is being entirely ignored. the ghost also has nukes... when paired with mech this is very effective vs the composition you speak of. if that doesn't work for you, there are other aspects of your game to work on first.
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i feel ravens should be used more HSM is the next snipe IMO. Even though snipe isnt completely useless but pretty bad. Maybe we will see some interesting builds from terran players that will use otehr units than ghosts.
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You have to drop like crazy, to take advantage of the immobility of brood lords and ultralisks and well as using defensive nukes to buy time for the necessary tech, upgrades, or units.
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EPT
