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On February 17 2012 05:07 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 05:06 Tal0n wrote:
im no T but sounds to me like you should switch into barracks for lategame. ever tried that? But I'd be very far behind on upgrades, as well as not having the infrastructure. Is the only way for mech to survive lategame to not be mech anymore? That's stupid....
you should really get over your imbalance > all mentality.
Have you checked to see how MVP MMA and other Terrans deal with Brood Lord transitions?
Have you tried hitting a timing before Brood Lords?
Why would you not choose Ghost Mech over just plain Mech. EMP still works.
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned cloak banshees to snipe infestors and it's a really good point, dealing with 1 cloak banshee sent in at a time is just so obnoxious.
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Well... with Terran, I tried getting less ghosts than usually (to try and emulate this patch) and I lose. With Protoss I just get a Mothership with Arcons and ez pz. But yeah, if anyone has a good strat against BL/Infestor thanks.
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On February 17 2012 05:59 lorkac wrote:
Don't stop harassing with hellions.
Even when mutas are out.
Even when roaches are out.
Don't stop.
The more you harass, the more they *have* to make mutas and infestors. The more defensive they get the less Broods they can afford to have (tactically)
Essentially--get as good as MMA at multitasking and applying non-stop pressure. It's easy--just be as good as MMA.
Dont' get me wrong, constant harass is good.... but you dont force more mutas and infestors (gas units) with drops. You force a few, not more and more the more you drop because they dont lose any units while you keep losing hellions.
But ya generally if you mech keep drpping blue flames. as long as you are trading 1 hellion for 1.5 drones imo it's worth it. However dont lose the medivacs.
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On February 17 2012 06:04 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 05:59 zVooky wrote:
Why not get a few ghosts and EMP all the infestors or most of them? Chances are a zerg won't have detection and you can just cloak your ghosts, drop EMPs, send in vikings then the rest. A infestor with no energy is pretty useless. If he does have detection then just snipe the observer. I dunno, in my experience lategame zerg often have 3+ overseers floating around their army. also post-patch you will need 9 snipes to kill a single overseer.
Overseers are psionic actually iirc. If that were the case it would be just 5 snipes (zerg regen).
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United States13143 Posts
On February 17 2012 06:20 Demonhunter04 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 06:04 Elyvilon wrote:On February 17 2012 05:59 zVooky wrote:
Why not get a few ghosts and EMP all the infestors or most of them? Chances are a zerg won't have detection and you can just cloak your ghosts, drop EMPs, send in vikings then the rest. A infestor with no energy is pretty useless. If he does have detection then just snipe the observer. I dunno, in my experience lategame zerg often have 3+ overseers floating around their army. also post-patch you will need 9 snipes to kill a single overseer. Overseers are psionic actually iirc. If that were the case it would be just 5 snipes (zerg regen).
Overseers are not psionic.
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On February 17 2012 06:06 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 05:07 ToastieNL wrote:On February 17 2012 05:06 Tal0n wrote:
im no T but sounds to me like you should switch into barracks for lategame. ever tried that? But I'd be very far behind on upgrades, as well as not having the infrastructure. Is the only way for mech to survive lategame to not be mech anymore? That's stupid.... you should really get over your imbalance > all mentality. Have you checked to see how MVP MMA and other Terrans deal with Brood Lord transitions? Have you tried hitting a timing before Brood Lords? Why would you not choose Ghost Mech over just plain Mech. EMP still works. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned cloak banshees to snipe infestors and it's a really good point, dealing with 1 cloak banshee sent in at a time is just so obnoxious.
MVP deals with it via ghosts. MMA deals with it via one of a kind multitasking that not a single person has reproduced at the GSL/MLG level.
He raises a very strong point that should be considered rather than blanketed with a mehqq. Switching from mech to bio costs more for the Terran than swapping b/t BLord/Ultra with Infestorling support. To make it harder, upgrades are a very significant problem since BLords, Ultras, and Lings share ups whereas mech/bio do not.
It is not a coincidence that the Playhem numbers show Terran to have a 60% winrate in games shorter than 20 minutes and 30% winrate post. As a player that prefers macro style 3-5 base vs 3-5 base games, it's very disheartening to know that you are going against the clock. I, and I'm sure many other Ts would agree with me, would willingly sacrifice some earlygame/early midgame strength for a better chance as the game draws out. the queueing macro mechanic is simply inferior to warpins/larvae pooling + easy tech switching and while we don't want to be overpowered, we would like to see some sort of adjustment.
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On February 17 2012 06:22 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 06:20 Demonhunter04 wrote:On February 17 2012 06:04 Elyvilon wrote:On February 17 2012 05:59 zVooky wrote:
Why not get a few ghosts and EMP all the infestors or most of them? Chances are a zerg won't have detection and you can just cloak your ghosts, drop EMPs, send in vikings then the rest. A infestor with no energy is pretty useless. If he does have detection then just snipe the observer. I dunno, in my experience lategame zerg often have 3+ overseers floating around their army. also post-patch you will need 9 snipes to kill a single overseer. Overseers are psionic actually iirc. If that were the case it would be just 5 snipes (zerg regen). Overseers are not psionic.
Yeah I just checked, they aren't. Maybe I was thinking of queens.
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On February 17 2012 06:26 Demonhunter04 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 06:22 Elyvilon wrote:On February 17 2012 06:20 Demonhunter04 wrote:On February 17 2012 06:04 Elyvilon wrote:On February 17 2012 05:59 zVooky wrote:
Why not get a few ghosts and EMP all the infestors or most of them? Chances are a zerg won't have detection and you can just cloak your ghosts, drop EMPs, send in vikings then the rest. A infestor with no energy is pretty useless. If he does have detection then just snipe the observer. I dunno, in my experience lategame zerg often have 3+ overseers floating around their army. also post-patch you will need 9 snipes to kill a single overseer. Overseers are psionic actually iirc. If that were the case it would be just 5 snipes (zerg regen). Overseers are not psionic. Yeah I just checked, they aren't. Maybe I was thinking of queens.
Yeah. Honestly this was the first thing I thought about post prepatch announcement. Maybe go mass cloaked ghosts with nukes and save snipes for seers. That will not be efficient. Here's a shoutout to qxc's idea.
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BFH/Viking/Banshee. Is that viable? Sky Terran's issue TvZ is mass sling/bling xsition. The only neutralization I can think are PF nodes + BFH.
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On February 17 2012 06:24 Emperor_Earth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 06:06 Denzil wrote:On February 17 2012 05:07 ToastieNL wrote:On February 17 2012 05:06 Tal0n wrote:
im no T but sounds to me like you should switch into barracks for lategame. ever tried that? But I'd be very far behind on upgrades, as well as not having the infrastructure. Is the only way for mech to survive lategame to not be mech anymore? That's stupid.... you should really get over your imbalance > all mentality. Have you checked to see how MVP MMA and other Terrans deal with Brood Lord transitions? Have you tried hitting a timing before Brood Lords? Why would you not choose Ghost Mech over just plain Mech. EMP still works. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned cloak banshees to snipe infestors and it's a really good point, dealing with 1 cloak banshee sent in at a time is just so obnoxious. MVP deals with it via ghosts. MMA deals with it via one of a kind multitasking that not a single person has reproduced at the GSL/MLG level. He raises a very strong point that should be considered rather than blanketed with a mehqq. Switching from mech to bio costs more for the Terran than swapping b/t BLord/Ultra with Infestorling support. To make it harder, upgrades are a very significant problem since BLords, Ultras, and Lings share ups whereas mech/bio do not. It is not a coincidence that the Playhem numbers show Terran to have a 60% winrate in games shorter than 20 minutes and 30% winrate post. As a player that prefers macro style 3-5 base vs 3-5 base games, it's very disheartening to know that you are going against the clock. I, and I'm sure many other Ts would agree with me, would willingly sacrifice some earlygame/early midgame strength for a better chance as the game draws out. the queueing macro mechanic is simply inferior to warpins/larvae pooling + easy tech switching and while we don't want to be overpowered, we would like to see some sort of adjustment.
maybe this means that terrans haven't figured out how to play the lategame as optimally as zerg, since ever since beta the mentality has always been 'do damage early and secure a lead/kill him'
or it means taht you need to do damage early and secure a lead/kill him.
this doesnt mean you are against the clock, it means you need to have an advantage GOING INTO teh mid/late game as terran. makes sense when you consider their macro mechanic.
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On February 17 2012 06:13 fighter2_40 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 05:59 lorkac wrote:
Don't stop harassing with hellions.
Even when mutas are out.
Even when roaches are out.
Don't stop.
The more you harass, the more they *have* to make mutas and infestors. The more defensive they get the less Broods they can afford to have (tactically)
Essentially--get as good as MMA at multitasking and applying non-stop pressure. It's easy--just be as good as MMA. Dont' get me wrong, constant harass is good.... but you dont force more mutas and infestors (gas units) with drops. You force a few, not more and more the more you drop because they dont lose any units while you keep losing hellions. But ya generally if you mech keep drpping blue flames. as long as you are trading 1 hellion for 1.5 drones imo it's worth it. However dont lose the medivacs.
I was specifically thinking about hellion runbys (no need for medivac) but more specifically I was suggesting that just because he was playing mech, that should not mean playing passive. You can set the tempo. If mutas and infestors are held back for defense--you can snipe expansions easier, you can expand safer. You can have map control, and apply pressure, and expand a lot.
Mech =\= passive.
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Protip: Broodlord infestor is very similar to mid game mech from Terran. It's so fucking good it's almost impossible to fight straight up. If you've ever watched GSL, you might've noticed instead of trying to fight, many Zergs will try to base trade or counter, attack many locations at once and basically attempt to abuse the mobility without directly engaging. With that being said, you guys haven't even really experimented yet with Ravens late game. I feel like Ghost/Raven Bio or Mass Air Banshee/Viking/Raven will get nerfed in the long run anyway. PDD literally blocks every singe Zerg Ground to Air and Air vs Air in the game, just like the Ghost countered all T2/T3 units Zerg could make. I haven't even touched on Seeker Missile or Autoturret abuse which can be devastating late game to expos, wall off entire sections of the map quickly with an attacking energy only ability and also last for years with the durable materials upgrade. Also of note is the fact that behind minerals, they are basically impossible to kill with lings. Despite the fact that the ghost will no longer be the 100% answer to all your late game TvZ, dealing thousands of damage in seconds and killing entire T3 armies with almost zero losses, I still think there may be a way available to play lategame TvZ.
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On February 17 2012 06:04 kcdc wrote:
Am I crazy or will snipe still be decent vs broodlords? In late game, supply is more of a concern than cost, and you can have 3 ghosts (up to 24 snipes) for the supply of one broodlord. Ghosts aren't going to completely shut down Z T3 like they do right now, but with a good gameplan, it seems like they'll still be really good.
I think the problem is not killing them, but the time it takes and your composition. In a perfect world, ghosts would still be pretty good in the same situation vs JUST broods/infestors, but when you have 2354625362535623623 lings also pouring into your army PLUS banelings, sniping the power units consumes a lot of time needed to perform other micro (making sure that your tanks aren't nuking the rest of your ground army, marine splits/stutter step).
Ghost nerf WAS needed, but this is fairly over kill, sort of like the way reapers got nerfed into the ground on release.
Raven/Viking/Ghost/Hellion maybe? It might require a small nerf of Fungal (or a nice buff of hellion and viking health) so your vikings and hellions wouldn't die instantly and you would also need to use mech, but it might work.
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Ghosts are still stupidly good, try getting like 20+ ghosts with 3-3 and about 5-7 medivacs which you should have from earlier its absolutely obnoxious to deal with and that is not even using snipe.
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Stop playing mech.
Mech is a gimmick for maps where you can hit a timing before BL. It cannot stand up to a Zerg that is taking a ton of expos on a bigger map.
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On February 17 2012 06:59 AKomrade wrote:
Raven/Viking/Ghost/Hellion maybe? It might require a small nerf of Fungal (or a nice buff of hellion and viking health) so your vikings and hellions wouldn't die instantly and you would also need to use mech, but it might work.
I cannot possibly understand why people think Terran now needs a buff. Terran has been above 50% win rate in every single metagame, on every single map pool, in every single match up and at every single level since release. They have won the most GSLs, the most tournaments, have the highest representation in tournaments, have the most top 4's and do not have a single player of any race to have an 75%+ win rate against them at the pro level. Terran gets nerfed every patch yet still, the winrates NEVER drop below 50%. Perhaps it's time to examine the actual design rather than just the numbers. Getting nerfed every single patch must suck, but the numbers are clear and infallible. If you truly feel Terran is just awful, it's time to play as Zerg or Protoss for awhile. As a former Terran player myself, the grass isn't always greener on the other side.
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On February 17 2012 07:09 Mr. Nefarious wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 06:59 AKomrade wrote:
Raven/Viking/Ghost/Hellion maybe? It might require a small nerf of Fungal (or a nice buff of hellion and viking health) so your vikings and hellions wouldn't die instantly and you would also need to use mech, but it might work. I cannot possibly understand why people think Terran now needs a buff. Terran has been above 50% win rate in every single metagame, on every single map pool, in every single match up and at every single level since release. They have won the most GSLs, the most tournaments, have the highest representation in tournaments, have the most top 4's and do not have a single player of any race to have an 75%+ win rate against them at the pro level. Terran gets nerfed every patch yet still, the winrates NEVER drop below 50%. Perhaps it's time to examine the actual design rather than just the numbers. Getting nerfed every single patch must suck, but the numbers are clear and infallible. If you truly feel Terran is just awful, it's time to play as Zerg or Protoss for awhile. As a former Terran player myself, the grass isn't always greener on the other side.
Some sources would be nice.
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Actually when you are going mech, in my eyes, at all comes down on timings. Around 15:00 is when i normally started my double starport producing (both with reactor) and make atleast 8 vikings. When you dont see broods just use your vikings to snipe overlords. When you see more just make vikings but dont go over the 16 mark.
Also Thors are the mech units you want lategame instead of tanks. Since Thors are good (in medium to large amount) versus brood since the broods clump up. And 3/3 Thors are godlike versus ultra's. So yeah when you have the timings in your head meching versus Zerg should be quite "easy" since mech is so diverse.
Also helion run by's are crucial. You can drop but simply shift move are working for me. And kill the larvae instead of the drones. Larvae tend to clump up and 3 blue flame helions with 3/3 1 shot an larva.
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I think the best thing here is to listen to what the zerg players have had to say about this... the mobility aspect is the advantage that terran has lategame.
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EPT
