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On February 17 2012 07:09 Mr. Nefarious wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 06:59 AKomrade wrote:
Raven/Viking/Ghost/Hellion maybe? It might require a small nerf of Fungal (or a nice buff of hellion and viking health) so your vikings and hellions wouldn't die instantly and you would also need to use mech, but it might work. I cannot possibly understand why people think Terran now needs a buff. Terran has been above 50% win rate in every single metagame, on every single map pool, in every single match up and at every single level since release. They have won the most GSLs, the most tournaments, have the highest representation in tournaments, have the most top 4's and do not have a single player of any race to have an 75%+ win rate against them at the pro level. Terran gets nerfed every patch yet still, the winrates NEVER drop below 50%. Perhaps it's time to examine the actual design rather than just the numbers. Getting nerfed every single patch must suck, but the numbers are clear and infallible. If you truly feel Terran is just awful, it's time to play as Zerg or Protoss for awhile. As a former Terran player myself, the grass isn't always greener on the other side.
the winrate is not something we have this high because of lategame TvZ, even with actual ghost believe me.
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On February 17 2012 06:04 kcdc wrote:
Am I crazy or will snipe still be decent vs broodlords? In late game, supply is more of a concern than cost, and you can have 3 ghosts (up to 24 snipes) for the supply of one broodlord. Ghosts aren't going to completely shut down Z T3 like they do right now, but with a good gameplan, it seems like they'll still be really good.
even if this nerf goes through, which pretty much noone wants in this form, then the ghost will still be better vs broodlords than it is vs ultras right now.
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On February 17 2012 04:48 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 04:46 Hollis wrote:
Drop his expos, drop as many of them as you can, as fast as you can. Don't stop for any reason! Drop everywhere. I play a mech style atm, I don't see how dropping everywhere works, especially not vs Broodlord Infestor. Infestors are faster than Tanks it seems, so I don't have that big of a mobility advantage. Dropping with mech just doesn't work I feel like.
blue flame hellions bro, those can be dropped, and as for getting lots of vikings, dont get a lot just get some and keep them alive by not clumping them
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As terran players, we accept that we are not very powerful in the lategame. It's the exact same in TvP, what happens when they get 3/3 with tons of charge zealots, collo, archons, and HT's?? there's just no answer from Terran. There's no answer for Broodlord infestor really apart from ghosts (bs that it's getting nerfed btw). I try and finish TvP and TvZ on 3base before deathballs are acheivable. I know this isn't that great a tip, but try fixing your build to win when they are on bane/ling/muta or roach/infestor or b4 hive.
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the principle behind the snipe nerf is the same as the principle behind the fungal and neural parasite nerf. They don't want T2 caster units dominating T3 units. For a LONG LONG time zerg complained about their T3. Turns out now, they're fairly decent. T players have dismissed BCs and ravens in TvZ. But I'm almost certain that--like in every other similar situation--they will eventually explore them and magically find them to be useful.
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Ghosts for infestors (can also defensive nuke near the BLs). Snipe or EMP, choose your poison.
Vikings for BL's. Careful positioning will have the corruptors getting close enough that marines can hit them.
Feel free to do small drops around the map, he wont be able to clean them up too well.
You can also get a raven and either HSM the broods or suicide a unit in to do it for you.
I am sorry terran cant just get one unit to catch all of zerg T3 anymore, you will have to adapt and use a versatile unit comp.
EDIT:
It's the exact same in TvP, what happens when they get 3/3 with tons of charge zealots, collo, archons, and HT's
Honestly? I think terran are stuck on not transitioning. They are constantly being aggressive, but always with the same units and never getting to a late game scenario. Battlecruisers would work exceptionally well against protoss. Something like BC/marine would wreck face.
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On February 17 2012 07:59 Noocta wrote:
the winrate is not something we have this high because of lategame TvZ, even with actual ghost believe me.
While that's an interesting statement; you've neglected to provide any sources, data, evidence or numbers to backup this theory. Random anecdotal evidence should be treated as such, worthless.
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Have you tried.. iono dropping? You dont have to attack directly into the ball you know. Plus i highly doubt you were using ghosts to their full effect to counter broodlord infestors pre patch anyways.
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United States13143 Posts
On February 17 2012 08:08 TheRabidDeer wrote:Ghosts for infestors (can also defensive nuke near the BLs). Snipe or EMP, choose your poison. Vikings for BL's. Careful positioning will have the corruptors getting close enough that marines can hit them. Feel free to do small drops around the map, he wont be able to clean them up too well. You can also get a raven and either HSM the broods or suicide a unit in to do it for you. I am sorry terran cant just get one unit to catch all of zerg T3 anymore, you will have to adapt and use a versatile unit comp. EDIT: Show nested quote +It's the exact same in TvP, what happens when they get 3/3 with tons of charge zealots, collo, archons, and HT's Honestly? I think terran are stuck on not transitioning. They are constantly being aggressive, but always with the same units and never getting to a late game scenario. Battlecruisers would work exceptionally well against protoss. Something like BC/marine would wreck face.
If I wanted to lose to HT/Archon/Blink Stalker, I suppose that would be true.
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On February 17 2012 08:22 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 08:08 TheRabidDeer wrote:Ghosts for infestors (can also defensive nuke near the BLs). Snipe or EMP, choose your poison. Vikings for BL's. Careful positioning will have the corruptors getting close enough that marines can hit them. Feel free to do small drops around the map, he wont be able to clean them up too well. You can also get a raven and either HSM the broods or suicide a unit in to do it for you. I am sorry terran cant just get one unit to catch all of zerg T3 anymore, you will have to adapt and use a versatile unit comp. EDIT: It's the exact same in TvP, what happens when they get 3/3 with tons of charge zealots, collo, archons, and HT's Honestly? I think terran are stuck on not transitioning. They are constantly being aggressive, but always with the same units and never getting to a late game scenario. Battlecruisers would work exceptionally well against protoss. Something like BC/marine would wreck face. If I wanted to lose to HT/Archon/Blink Stalker, I suppose that would be true.
Well, according to terrans you lose against HT/archon/blink stalker/colossus already. I mean, you do realize that your mentality of "well it doesnt work" before even trying it AT ALL is what stagnates the races right?
I think once protoss gets up to 3 bases with all their gas and full income, terran needs to begin switching tech out of full bio into something different.
Maybe a couple ravens, working up to a sizeable BC army and marines/cc's as a mineral dump.
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United States13143 Posts
On February 17 2012 08:27 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 08:22 Elyvilon wrote:On February 17 2012 08:08 TheRabidDeer wrote:Ghosts for infestors (can also defensive nuke near the BLs). Snipe or EMP, choose your poison. Vikings for BL's. Careful positioning will have the corruptors getting close enough that marines can hit them. Feel free to do small drops around the map, he wont be able to clean them up too well. You can also get a raven and either HSM the broods or suicide a unit in to do it for you. I am sorry terran cant just get one unit to catch all of zerg T3 anymore, you will have to adapt and use a versatile unit comp. EDIT: It's the exact same in TvP, what happens when they get 3/3 with tons of charge zealots, collo, archons, and HT's Honestly? I think terran are stuck on not transitioning. They are constantly being aggressive, but always with the same units and never getting to a late game scenario. Battlecruisers would work exceptionally well against protoss. Something like BC/marine would wreck face. If I wanted to lose to HT/Archon/Blink Stalker, I suppose that would be true. Well, according to terrans you lose against HT/archon/blink stalker/colossus already. I mean, you do realize that your mentality of "well it doesnt work" before even trying it AT ALL is what stagnates the races right? I think once protoss gets up to 3 bases with all their gas and full income, terran needs to begin switching tech out of full bio into something different. Maybe a couple ravens, working up to a sizeable BC army and marines/cc's as a mineral dump.
BCs are only kind of bad against HTs, while ravens are actually completely horrible against them. It might be possible to mix BCs into the lategame TvP army, but I doubt it is possible for ravens(even though I like to get one for detection, I don't actually think this is a good idea for good players). That said, building them instead of ghosts or marauders seems like a bad idea, because it leaves your entire army to be countered by templar. I have not found BCs to be particularly helpful in the couple times I've tried them, though.
I actually like thors better, because armor upgraded thors actually tank zealots and colossi okay, but I've never seen pros build them in those situations; maybe it's because then you have yet another set of upgrades you need to do in addition to infantry weapons, infantry armor, air weapons, and potentially air armor. Or maybe it's because they're too slow, I dunno.
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On February 17 2012 08:46 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 08:27 TheRabidDeer wrote:On February 17 2012 08:22 Elyvilon wrote:On February 17 2012 08:08 TheRabidDeer wrote:Ghosts for infestors (can also defensive nuke near the BLs). Snipe or EMP, choose your poison. Vikings for BL's. Careful positioning will have the corruptors getting close enough that marines can hit them. Feel free to do small drops around the map, he wont be able to clean them up too well. You can also get a raven and either HSM the broods or suicide a unit in to do it for you. I am sorry terran cant just get one unit to catch all of zerg T3 anymore, you will have to adapt and use a versatile unit comp. EDIT: It's the exact same in TvP, what happens when they get 3/3 with tons of charge zealots, collo, archons, and HT's Honestly? I think terran are stuck on not transitioning. They are constantly being aggressive, but always with the same units and never getting to a late game scenario. Battlecruisers would work exceptionally well against protoss. Something like BC/marine would wreck face. If I wanted to lose to HT/Archon/Blink Stalker, I suppose that would be true. Well, according to terrans you lose against HT/archon/blink stalker/colossus already. I mean, you do realize that your mentality of "well it doesnt work" before even trying it AT ALL is what stagnates the races right? I think once protoss gets up to 3 bases with all their gas and full income, terran needs to begin switching tech out of full bio into something different. Maybe a couple ravens, working up to a sizeable BC army and marines/cc's as a mineral dump. BCs are only kind of bad against HTs, while ravens are actually completely horrible against them. It might be possible to mix BCs into the lategame TvP army, but I doubt it is possible for ravens(even though I like to get one for detection, I don't actually think this is a good idea for good players). That said, building them instead of ghosts or marauders seems like a bad idea, because it leaves your entire army to be countered by templar. I have not found BCs to be particularly helpful in the couple times I've tried them, though. I actually like thors better, because armor upgraded thors actually tank zealots and colossi okay, but I've never seen pros build them in those situations; maybe it's because then you have yet another set of upgrades you need to do in addition to infantry weapons, infantry armor, air weapons, and potentially air armor. Or maybe it's because they're too slow, I dunno.
Why are ravens horrible against them? You are getting them for PDD so that your BC's are immune to the main source of damage. You should be able to drop PDD's without getting hit by feedback. I mean, 3 ravens is 6 potential PDD's, which is a ton of stalker fire to absorb.
Maybe thor/hellion late game. Seems like itd be a harder tech switch than BC's though because you dont usually have more than the one factory TvP and you could very well have 2 starports, and you will have a lot of barracks already.
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United States13143 Posts
On February 17 2012 08:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 08:46 Elyvilon wrote:On February 17 2012 08:27 TheRabidDeer wrote:On February 17 2012 08:22 Elyvilon wrote:On February 17 2012 08:08 TheRabidDeer wrote:Ghosts for infestors (can also defensive nuke near the BLs). Snipe or EMP, choose your poison. Vikings for BL's. Careful positioning will have the corruptors getting close enough that marines can hit them. Feel free to do small drops around the map, he wont be able to clean them up too well. You can also get a raven and either HSM the broods or suicide a unit in to do it for you. I am sorry terran cant just get one unit to catch all of zerg T3 anymore, you will have to adapt and use a versatile unit comp. EDIT: It's the exact same in TvP, what happens when they get 3/3 with tons of charge zealots, collo, archons, and HT's Honestly? I think terran are stuck on not transitioning. They are constantly being aggressive, but always with the same units and never getting to a late game scenario. Battlecruisers would work exceptionally well against protoss. Something like BC/marine would wreck face. If I wanted to lose to HT/Archon/Blink Stalker, I suppose that would be true. Well, according to terrans you lose against HT/archon/blink stalker/colossus already. I mean, you do realize that your mentality of "well it doesnt work" before even trying it AT ALL is what stagnates the races right? I think once protoss gets up to 3 bases with all their gas and full income, terran needs to begin switching tech out of full bio into something different. Maybe a couple ravens, working up to a sizeable BC army and marines/cc's as a mineral dump. BCs are only kind of bad against HTs, while ravens are actually completely horrible against them. It might be possible to mix BCs into the lategame TvP army, but I doubt it is possible for ravens(even though I like to get one for detection, I don't actually think this is a good idea for good players). That said, building them instead of ghosts or marauders seems like a bad idea, because it leaves your entire army to be countered by templar. I have not found BCs to be particularly helpful in the couple times I've tried them, though. I actually like thors better, because armor upgraded thors actually tank zealots and colossi okay, but I've never seen pros build them in those situations; maybe it's because then you have yet another set of upgrades you need to do in addition to infantry weapons, infantry armor, air weapons, and potentially air armor. Or maybe it's because they're too slow, I dunno. Why are ravens horrible against them? You are getting them for PDD so that your BC's are immune to the main source of damage. You should be able to drop PDD's without getting hit by feedback. I mean, 3 ravens is 6 potential PDD's, which is a ton of stalker fire to absorb.
At full energy, ravens get one-shotted by HTs. Also, PDDs get one-shotted by feedback.
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T3 zerg very immobile and T Mech is very immobile. Only way to force reposition battles is to nuke and slowly inch up, spread vikings and add a few banshees to go for tech buildings
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Mass drop play with hellions+tanks or get thor drops that snipe buildings, queens, etc. What you want to do is make zerg keep running after you in hopes of not losing their base. With the ghost nerf, if you go mech, it is essential that you get mass ravens and HSM. You want to catch him off guard when you have a lot of ravens and go for his mining bases before he tech switches to ultralisks.
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On February 17 2012 07:08 architecture wrote:
Stop playing mech.
Mech is a gimmick for maps where you can hit a timing before BL. It cannot stand up to a Zerg that is taking a ton of expos on a bigger map.
Why not? BFH are one of the most mobile units in the game. There's virtually no way for him to defend every expo (including against drops in the back) and cover every foot of a bigger map. I'd like to see a zerg on 5-6 base on a big map vs a good meching Terran with constant hellion harass not take considerable damage that doesn't have a huge lead already.
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On February 17 2012 08:53 Elyvilon wrote:
At full energy, ravens get one-shotted by HTs. Also, PDDs get one-shotted by feedback.
I'll agree, probably not as strong against Protoss. However, Zerg has no answer to energy units [EMP/Feedback] and PDD blocks every single Zerg anti-air in the game. Think about this for a minute.
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On February 17 2012 08:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 06:04 kcdc wrote:
Am I crazy or will snipe still be decent vs broodlords? In late game, supply is more of a concern than cost, and you can have 3 ghosts (up to 24 snipes) for the supply of one broodlord. Ghosts aren't going to completely shut down Z T3 like they do right now, but with a good gameplan, it seems like they'll still be really good. even if this nerf goes through, which pretty much noone wants in this form, then the ghost will still be better vs broodlords than it is vs ultras right now.
That's not really saying a lot though, since they pretty much suck against ultras. Ultras just also suck, so it made the silly number of snipes needed to kill them bearable. This is not the case with BLs.
I say go heavy thor with a few tanks. Siege tanks only when he commits ground army(infestors/roaches) and focus fire ranged units. Since your thors have upgrade advantage, they will do pretty well, until BLs catch up on armor ups. At that time I've been trying to have ravens churning out and pfs(though admittedly it's rare that the game goes so far, since so many zergs get attack ups for bls, thank god).
What I've not been able to do enough is add in ghosts for nuking. Nukes are so insanely cost efficient/supply efficient lategame, so I think adding them in to slow the zerg when you are transitioning into ravens would be pretty pimp. They could also be used to clear spines, to allow BFH access to some roasting action.
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On February 17 2012 08:27 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 08:22 Elyvilon wrote:On February 17 2012 08:08 TheRabidDeer wrote:Ghosts for infestors (can also defensive nuke near the BLs). Snipe or EMP, choose your poison. Vikings for BL's. Careful positioning will have the corruptors getting close enough that marines can hit them. Feel free to do small drops around the map, he wont be able to clean them up too well. You can also get a raven and either HSM the broods or suicide a unit in to do it for you. I am sorry terran cant just get one unit to catch all of zerg T3 anymore, you will have to adapt and use a versatile unit comp. EDIT: It's the exact same in TvP, what happens when they get 3/3 with tons of charge zealots, collo, archons, and HT's Honestly? I think terran are stuck on not transitioning. They are constantly being aggressive, but always with the same units and never getting to a late game scenario. Battlecruisers would work exceptionally well against protoss. Something like BC/marine would wreck face. If I wanted to lose to HT/Archon/Blink Stalker, I suppose that would be true. Well, according to terrans you lose against HT/archon/blink stalker/colossus already. I mean, you do realize that your mentality of "well it doesnt work" before even trying it AT ALL is what stagnates the races right? I think once protoss gets up to 3 bases with all their gas and full income, terran needs to begin switching tech out of full bio into something different. Maybe a couple ravens, working up to a sizeable BC army and marines/cc's as a mineral dump.
You do realize we play full bio, because there is nothing to transition into, right? If there was some transition, we'd be using those units earlier, since most of them are only really hard countered late in the protoss tech tree, so there'd be a window to hit before those units come out(and due to this window, blizzard took the very major and positive decision, to just let all the t3 of terran suck vP).
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On February 17 2012 07:17 Mr. Nefarious wrote:Here ya go. http://imgur.com/a/hQHYSAs you can clearly see in the international scene as well as Korea, Terran has never fallen below 50% against either of the other two races since release despite countless changes to balance, maps, metagame and player styles. Also a quick check of the best of the best Zerg players will reveal Vs T winrates only slightly above 50%, while the best Terrans look invincible with 70-80% winrates vs Z and P. All numbers taken straight from TLPD. As seen clearly above, the only player to break 60% winrate vs T is DRG. With that being said, it's also statistically his worst matchup by nearly 10%.
I have to agree. Very sound argument Mr.Nefarious. Terrans are only complaining because now they lack a beat all answer. Snipe was 100% overpowered. But the Ghost itself is still usable and extremely viable. Small numbers of ghost with EMP against Infestors, Viking/Raven vs Brood/Ultra, Tank/Bio vs Ling/Bane, etc. etc. so on an so forth. The fact remains they have the MOST viable answers to both Toss and Zerg at the highest level of play.
If your not playing at the highest level (NA Grandmasters do NOT count) than you should not be ranting about balance/imbalance at all. And I can say with a 100% surety that none of the Terrans in this thread have tried near anything at this point. You have not experimented enough or tested out the many different possibilities besides Ghost. Get creative and figure out the numbers game. Thats what this sport is all about. Nothing is TRULY imbalanced in this title. Nothing is completely broken because at the highest level, everything can be stopped or countered softly within reason. Do some research like Mr.Nefarious here and myself included. Watch Day9.tv, GSL, Streams (Koreans stream as well). Make an effort to try before you say something needs to be Nerfed or Buffed.
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Who needs snipe??? Nukes are hte new snipe :D Nukes are friggin awesome. Ever seen broodlords disappear?
I'm a zerg, and I love when my opponent goes mech without ghosts lategame. If I can retain air control and there isn't a dominating force of vikings (that I don't fungal), then Broodlords will reign supreme. You MUST get ghosts to push with, otherwise you're pushing into a flesh/fungal wall.
Get ghosts, cloak and nuke expos. It's retartedly effective, and your mech will outlast.
This is how to endgame a zerg with ghosts (MVP went tank marine, but the ghosts were what won him the game.)
http://www.youtube.com/hdstarcraft#p/u/5/FjJpux-7b58
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EPT
