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On February 25 2012 20:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 17:19 Raambo11 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:27 joocybaneling wrote:On February 25 2012 14:31 Nagano wrote:
Anyone watch today's MLG? Yea, THAT'S how you counter zerg t3 QFT turtle on 3 bases and get the following: 3/3 thors and vikings and BF hellions get 20 SCV set them on auto repair seemed to work for DeMuslim against Nestea in game 3 and Thorzain vs. Leenock in game 1, damn dat terran deathball was unstoppable This is great until zergs figure out that mass brood lord isn't great vs mass thor and if you have enough thors to fight off BL's you can just pump out mass cracklings and massacre the thor army cost efficiently. Either that or just remax on pure roach and get upgrades (which Nestea didn't) try mass roach vs mass Thor. It loses. Roaches are costefficient against Thors, Thors are supplyefficient vs Roaches. Not to mention that Terran can scout the roaches (for example by forcing them to defend against hellions) and then add this exotic unit... what was it called again... you know, the one with the 13range and the insane antiarmored dps... And cracklings... yeah sure. Against mass blueflame hellion (and this exotic unit) this is the dumbest thing ever. Funny thing, I just went to a unit tester to see how good 3/3 cracklings are vs Thors in a high supply scenario. 17 Thors (102supply) vs 216 zerglings (108 supply) with clumped Thors on open field: real hardounter those cracklings man... two Thors died AND 2more were far down in the red!  No, you're gonna need Broods and/or Ultras against those Thors if you want to actually win an engagement.
Would you please stop claiming on one hand that Zerg has to be ahead in terms of bases and macro mechanics, and on the other making comparison based on same cost-army ?
Who cares if roaches are cost-unefficient against thors if the Zerg can outmacro a camping mech Terran so hard and send hundreds of waves of them...
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On February 25 2012 20:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 17:19 Raambo11 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:27 joocybaneling wrote:On February 25 2012 14:31 Nagano wrote:
Anyone watch today's MLG? Yea, THAT'S how you counter zerg t3 QFT turtle on 3 bases and get the following: 3/3 thors and vikings and BF hellions get 20 SCV set them on auto repair seemed to work for DeMuslim against Nestea in game 3 and Thorzain vs. Leenock in game 1, damn dat terran deathball was unstoppable This is great until zergs figure out that mass brood lord isn't great vs mass thor and if you have enough thors to fight off BL's you can just pump out mass cracklings and massacre the thor army cost efficiently. Either that or just remax on pure roach and get upgrades (which Nestea didn't) try mass roach vs mass Thor. It loses. Roaches are costefficient against Thors, Thors are supplyefficient vs Roaches. Not to mention that Terran can scout the roaches (for example by forcing them to defend against hellions) and then add this exotic unit... what was it called again... you know, the one with the 13range and the insane antiarmored dps... And cracklings... yeah sure. Against mass blueflame hellion (and this exotic unit) this is the dumbest thing ever. Funny thing, I just went to a unit tester to see how good 3/3 cracklings are vs Thors in a high supply scenario. 17 Thors (102supply) vs 216 zerglings (108 supply) with clumped Thors on open field: real hardounter those cracklings man... two Thors died AND 2more were far down in the red! No, you're gonna need Broods and/or Ultras against those Thors if you want to actually win an engagement.
Why don't you just send 50 Roaches twice? You said it yourself, it's cost-efficient. A 6-base Zerg can do this without a problem, as long as you don't engage at your own nat. Thors are big, too, which makes them vulnerable when massed and catched in an awkward spot, with a concave.
And if you add Siege Tanks, then it's not mass Thor anymore, which gives more vulnerability to Broodlords.
Mass Thor is, as already said, situational, and not an answer to Zerg T3. And it is normal that a pure Roach army doesn't destroy them, just as normal as a Bioball not being able to deal with BLs or Ultras. Just remax with the 5000 minerals you have in the bank.
I really don't see it working on the ladder, I've tried it and dropped it. It can, however, work in tournaments where you want to hit a certain spot at a certain timing, with a well-built game plan.
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On February 25 2012 20:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 17:19 Raambo11 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:27 joocybaneling wrote:On February 25 2012 14:31 Nagano wrote:
Anyone watch today's MLG? Yea, THAT'S how you counter zerg t3 QFT turtle on 3 bases and get the following: 3/3 thors and vikings and BF hellions get 20 SCV set them on auto repair seemed to work for DeMuslim against Nestea in game 3 and Thorzain vs. Leenock in game 1, damn dat terran deathball was unstoppable This is great until zergs figure out that mass brood lord isn't great vs mass thor and if you have enough thors to fight off BL's you can just pump out mass cracklings and massacre the thor army cost efficiently. Either that or just remax on pure roach and get upgrades (which Nestea didn't) try mass roach vs mass Thor. It loses. Roaches are costefficient against Thors, Thors are supplyefficient vs Roaches. Not to mention that Terran can scout the roaches (for example by forcing them to defend against hellions) and then add this exotic unit... what was it called again... you know, the one with the 13range and the insane antiarmored dps... And cracklings... yeah sure. Against mass blueflame hellion (and this exotic unit) this is the dumbest thing ever. Funny thing, I just went to a unit tester to see how good 3/3 cracklings are vs Thors in a high supply scenario. 17 Thors (102supply) vs 216 zerglings (108 supply) with clumped Thors on open field: real hardounter those cracklings man... two Thors died AND 2more were far down in the red! No, you're gonna need Broods and/or Ultras against those Thors if you want to actually win an engagement.
216 zerglings 5400minerals
17thors: 5100minerals, 3400gas
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you used snipe on zerglings?
I think you have bigger issues than the ghost nerf to worry about.
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On February 17 2012 04:48 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 04:46 Hollis wrote:
Drop his expos, drop as many of them as you can, as fast as you can. Don't stop for any reason! Drop everywhere. I play a mech style atm, I don't see how dropping everywhere works, especially not vs Broodlord Infestor. Infestors are faster than Tanks it seems, so I don't have that big of a mobility advantage. Dropping with mech just doesn't work I feel like.
then dont play mech?
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Last night, Thorzain played an incredible mass-thor (+vikings and some siege tanks) style and it absolutely obliterated Leenock's first max push of broodlords and infestors, and then the second max push of broodlord/ corruptor/ infestor. Not a single ghost in the composition, and it was completely mech based. He had mass upgrades, and made sure his thors has great concaves on the Zerg units. Completely shutdown Leenock, and Thorzain hadn't done a single harrassment ahead of time. Played super passively (as he's known for his slow, methodical play). Thorzain raped him.
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On February 25 2012 21:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Last night, Thorzain played an incredible mass-thor (+vikings and some siege tanks) style and it absolutely obliterated Leenock's first max push of broodlords and infestors, and then the second max push of broodlord/ corruptor/ infestor. Not a single ghost in the composition, and it was completely mech based. He had mass upgrades, and made sure his thors has great concaves on the Zerg units. Completely shutdown Leenock, and Thorzain hadn't done a single harrassment ahead of time. Played super passively (as he's known for his slow, methodical play). Thorzain raped him.
yeah and in 3rd game leenock actually started playing decent and completely raped his mech
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On February 25 2012 21:25 halfies wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 04:48 ToastieNL wrote:On February 17 2012 04:46 Hollis wrote:
Drop his expos, drop as many of them as you can, as fast as you can. Don't stop for any reason! Drop everywhere. I play a mech style atm, I don't see how dropping everywhere works, especially not vs Broodlord Infestor. Infestors are faster than Tanks it seems, so I don't have that big of a mobility advantage. Dropping with mech just doesn't work I feel like. then dont play mech?
But then it would mean there is only one viable style... : )
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On February 25 2012 21:42 jupiter6 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 21:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Last night, Thorzain played an incredible mass-thor (+vikings and some siege tanks) style and it absolutely obliterated Leenock's first max push of broodlords and infestors, and then the second max push of broodlord/ corruptor/ infestor. Not a single ghost in the composition, and it was completely mech based. He had mass upgrades, and made sure his thors has great concaves on the Zerg units. Completely shutdown Leenock, and Thorzain hadn't done a single harrassment ahead of time. Played super passively (as he's known for his slow, methodical play). Thorzain raped him. yeah and in 3rd game leenock actually started playing decent and completely raped his mech
lol he played plenty "decent" in the game where Thorzain stomped him.
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On February 25 2012 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 21:42 jupiter6 wrote:On February 25 2012 21:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Last night, Thorzain played an incredible mass-thor (+vikings and some siege tanks) style and it absolutely obliterated Leenock's first max push of broodlords and infestors, and then the second max push of broodlord/ corruptor/ infestor. Not a single ghost in the composition, and it was completely mech based. He had mass upgrades, and made sure his thors has great concaves on the Zerg units. Completely shutdown Leenock, and Thorzain hadn't done a single harrassment ahead of time. Played super passively (as he's known for his slow, methodical play). Thorzain raped him. yeah and in 3rd game leenock actually started playing decent and completely raped his mech lol he played plenty "decent" in the game where Thorzain stomped him.
no upgrades, pure clumped bl/infestor no ground army vs mass 3-3 thors and vikings was not played well -.-
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Many people already said it, but as a Zerg, when you go BL Infestor, drops make you cry 
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ravens - seeker missile nearly 2 shots grouped broodlords and the auto turrets can be used very easily like FF given how big and dumb ultras are
But i echo the sentiments that good dropping will tear a zerg to peices at that point. Just survive while sniping bases and drones and eventually the zerg will not be able to keep up.
Also don't forget that as the game progresses more OC's means less scv's needed - can use them to buffer/repair as well
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On February 25 2012 20:43 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 20:04 Big J wrote:On February 25 2012 17:19 Raambo11 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:27 joocybaneling wrote:On February 25 2012 14:31 Nagano wrote:
Anyone watch today's MLG? Yea, THAT'S how you counter zerg t3 QFT turtle on 3 bases and get the following: 3/3 thors and vikings and BF hellions get 20 SCV set them on auto repair seemed to work for DeMuslim against Nestea in game 3 and Thorzain vs. Leenock in game 1, damn dat terran deathball was unstoppable This is great until zergs figure out that mass brood lord isn't great vs mass thor and if you have enough thors to fight off BL's you can just pump out mass cracklings and massacre the thor army cost efficiently. Either that or just remax on pure roach and get upgrades (which Nestea didn't) try mass roach vs mass Thor. It loses. Roaches are costefficient against Thors, Thors are supplyefficient vs Roaches. Not to mention that Terran can scout the roaches (for example by forcing them to defend against hellions) and then add this exotic unit... what was it called again... you know, the one with the 13range and the insane antiarmored dps... And cracklings... yeah sure. Against mass blueflame hellion (and this exotic unit) this is the dumbest thing ever. Funny thing, I just went to a unit tester to see how good 3/3 cracklings are vs Thors in a high supply scenario. 17 Thors (102supply) vs 216 zerglings (108 supply) with clumped Thors on open field: real hardounter those cracklings man... two Thors died AND 2more were far down in the red! No, you're gonna need Broods and/or Ultras against those Thors if you want to actually win an engagement. Why don't you just send 50 Roaches twice? You said it yourself, it's cost-efficient. A 6-base Zerg can do this without a problem, as long as you don't engage at your own nat. Thors are big, too, which makes them vulnerable when massed and catched in an awkward spot, with a concave. And if you add Siege Tanks, then it's not mass Thor anymore, which gives more vulnerability to Broodlords. Mass Thor is, as already said, situational, and not an answer to Zerg T3. And it is normal that a pure Roach army doesn't destroy them, just as normal as a Bioball not being able to deal with BLs or Ultras. Just remax with the 5000 minerals you have in the bank. I really don't see it working on the ladder, I've tried it and dropped it. It can, however, work in tournaments where you want to hit a certain spot at a certain timing, with a well-built game plan.
Costefficient means that in even cost scenarios you are well off. In a maxed scenario you will get destroyed by pure Thor with roaches, 100times in a row, because the maxed composition will just cost like 50% more.
Roaches and Zerglings are nice against Thors, until Terran has turtled up a good amount of them. If you haven't switched into Broodlords or Ultras until then you go basetrade or you are dead, because you can't fight the composition anymore.
And no, mass Thor is not "the answer" to Zerg T3 and the game would be pretty bullshit if massing one single unit was the answer to multiple very strong, very different compositions. However Mass Mech + support is pretty good against those.
And if I have 5k in the bank and you are broke and can't produce properly, then you better get your macro straight before thinking about what composition to use. Hell, Mech is even way better than bio when it comes to reproducing units so you will have even less of a problem with a "remax" if you are in an even position.
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Polt just put on a clinic in how to deal with it in his 3rd game vs lucky at winter assembly, but I have to say... it was IN NO WAY balanced. He supremely outplayed lucky in order to win, any mere mortal would never be able to do it. I really want to hear some comments from the devs on this issue as well as that game, it was insane!
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On February 26 2012 00:30 CaptainCrush wrote:
Polt just put on a clinic in how to deal with it in his 3rd game vs lucky at winter assembly, but I have to say... it was IN NO WAY balanced. He supremely outplayed lucky in order to win, any mere mortal would never be able to do it. I really want to hear some comments from the devs on this issue as well as that game, it was insane!
It works vs a very low econ 3 base broodlord. But if Zerg is able to establish an economy through muta harass and gets good upgrades on 4+ base, then I don't know what you can do.
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I saw polt vs lucky, and I have to say: wow, broodlord infestor is strong. Polt played like a GOD, and it was so damn close
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On February 26 2012 00:30 CaptainCrush wrote:
Polt just put on a clinic in how to deal with it in his 3rd game vs lucky at winter assembly, but I have to say... it was IN NO WAY balanced. He supremely outplayed lucky in order to win, any mere mortal would never be able to do it. I really want to hear some comments from the devs on this issue as well as that game, it was insane!
Because lucky built nearly 40 banelings and maybe more zerglings before the 10 minute mark, while Polt had 3 Orbitals up. It wasn't exactly the greatest example.
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On February 26 2012 00:30 CaptainCrush wrote:
Polt just put on a clinic in how to deal with it in his 3rd game vs lucky at winter assembly, but I have to say... it was IN NO WAY balanced. He supremely outplayed lucky in order to win, any mere mortal would never be able to do it. I really want to hear some comments from the devs on this issue as well as that game, it was insane!
It was an insane game indeed, but, Polt did not Play perfectly and lucky was far behind the entire game, He did what he needed. Terrans should learn from that game, Drop, abuse mobility and FFS, even polt saw that comp and didnt go 2 stargates with reactors.
Polt went marine tank vs BL/infestor, It has nothing to do with an imbalance there.
I think it shows the opposite, you dont need a dream comp to kill BL/inf, you can go marine tank vs it too.
gg
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On February 26 2012 00:35 kiLen wrote:
Polt went marine tank vs BL/infestor, It has nothing to do with an imbalance there.
I think it shows the opposite, you dont need a dream comp to kill BL/inf, you can go marine tank vs it too.
gg
It showed that with marine tank vs broodlord infestor, you need to play like a GOD, and be AHEAD.
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On February 26 2012 00:42 Snowbear wrote:
It showed that with marine tank vs broodlord infestor, you need to play like a GOD, and be AHEAD.
Imo it looked more like Polt's standard play vs bloodlord/infestor. He's doing exactly the same thing in game 4.
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EPT
