1.4.3 How to kill lategame Zerg?

On February 17 2012 04:39 Psilo wrote:
I got owned by corruptor/BL's yesterday and i could use some pointers too. (i am terran)

On February 17 2012 04:46 Hollis wrote:
Drop his expos, drop as many of them as you can, as fast as you can. Don't stop for any reason!

On February 17 2012 04:38 ToastieNL wrote:
Hi there!

Lately I have been trying a mech style to avoind needing Ghost alltogether, but I CANT for the life of me beat Zergs going Broodlord infestor. It requires me to get a lot of Vikings, than Ultraling rolls me over bigtime.

Question: How do I kill Broodlord Infestor + Transitions when I'm going for a Mech build?

I just don't know it anymore, and I dont want to switch races... Does anybody know when David is dealing with this strategy that he said is slightly imbalanced?

Kind regards!

On February 17 2012 04:49 jupiter6 wrote:
its funny because if it wasnt for broken vortex mechanic protoss also wouldnt have an answer to bl/infestor yet blizzard doesnt seem to care how stupid strong and unfair it is

On February 17 2012 04:51 benthekid wrote:
Win rate of games past 15 minutes are going to heavily favor zerg and then the'll will realize that the patch changes that they make while high aren't worth keeping. Also that it is possible to release a patch without a huge nerf to Terran or buff to protoss.

I'm thinking of going into air terran with hellion support. Basically an iechoic style but with ghosts to emp and snipe infestors. Vikings and bc's with ravens for pdd and seeker and battlecruisers for yamato. That way it will force them to continue with Corruptor broodlord or lose. If they switch to ultras just make Banshees.

THe only limitation to this is the insane amount of income it would require. I personally have trouble with econ management past 3 bases so I'm sure this will help that aspect.

On February 17 2012 04:53 TheV wrote:
Snipe is getting nerfed, not removed from the game.

You can still use ghosts..

On February 17 2012 04:55 ToastieNL wrote:

I think Lings beat mass- air, by running by and just killing your base while they get build faster than you can kill them.

On February 17 2012 04:54 ODKStevez wrote:
I can advise you by suggesting banshees. I always get rolled by them late game if I don't scout them.

On February 17 2012 04:53 TheV wrote:
Snipe is getting nerfed, not removed from the game.

You can still use ghosts..

On February 17 2012 05:06 Tal0n wrote:
im no T but sounds to me like you should switch into barracks for lategame. ever tried that?

On February 17 2012 04:55 ToastieNL wrote:

Snipe is becoming useless to everything but infestors. That's why it becomes useless vs Broodlord/Infestor, because of the broodlord aspect.

On February 17 2012 04:48 ToastieNL wrote:

Drop everywhere. I play a mech style atm, I don't see how dropping everywhere works, especially not vs Broodlord Infestor. Infestors are faster than Tanks it seems, so I don't have that big of a mobility advantage.
Dropping with mech just doesn't work I feel like.

On February 17 2012 05:07 ToastieNL wrote:

But I'd be very far behind on upgrades, as well as not having the infrastructure. Is the only way for mech to survive lategame to not be mech anymore? That's stupid....

On February 17 2012 05:59 lorkac wrote:
Don't stop harassing with hellions.

Even when mutas are out.

Even when roaches are out.

Don't stop.

The more you harass, the more they *have* to make mutas and infestors. The more defensive they get the less Broods they can afford to have (tactically)

Essentially--get as good as MMA at multitasking and applying non-stop pressure. It's easy--just be as good as MMA.

On February 17 2012 06:04 Elyvilon wrote:

I dunno, in my experience lategame zerg often have 3+ overseers floating around their army.

also post-patch you will need 9 snipes to kill a single overseer.

On February 17 2012 06:06 Denzil wrote:


you should really get over your imbalance > all mentality.

Have you checked to see how MVP MMA and other Terrans deal with Brood Lord transitions?

Have you tried hitting a timing before Brood Lords?

Why would you not choose Ghost Mech over just plain Mech. EMP still works.

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned cloak banshees to snipe infestors and it's a really good point, dealing with 1 cloak banshee sent in at a time is just so obnoxious.

On February 17 2012 06:22 Elyvilon wrote:

Overseers are not psionic.

On February 17 2012 06:26 Demonhunter04 wrote:


Yeah I just checked, they aren't. Maybe I was thinking of queens.

On February 17 2012 06:24 Emperor_Earth wrote:


MVP deals with it via ghosts. MMA deals with it via one of a kind multitasking that not a single person has reproduced at the GSL/MLG level.

He raises a very strong point that should be considered rather than blanketed with a mehqq. Switching from mech to bio costs more for the Terran than swapping b/t BLord/Ultra with Infestorling support. To make it harder, upgrades are a very significant problem since BLords, Ultras, and Lings share ups whereas mech/bio do not.

It is not a coincidence that the Playhem numbers show Terran to have a 60% winrate in games shorter than 20 minutes and 30% winrate post. As a player that prefers macro style 3-5 base vs 3-5 base games, it's very disheartening to know that you are going against the clock. I, and I'm sure many other Ts would agree with me, would willingly sacrifice some earlygame/early midgame strength for a better chance as the game draws out. the queueing macro mechanic is simply inferior to warpins/larvae pooling + easy tech switching and while we don't want to be overpowered, we would like to see some sort of adjustment.

On February 17 2012 06:13 fighter2_40 wrote:


Dont' get me wrong, constant harass is good.... but you dont force more mutas and infestors (gas units) with drops. You force a few, not more and more the more you drop because they dont lose any units while you keep losing hellions.

But ya generally if you mech keep drpping blue flames. as long as you are trading 1 hellion for 1.5 drones imo it's worth it. However dont lose the medivacs.

On February 17 2012 06:04 kcdc wrote:
Am I crazy or will snipe still be decent vs broodlords? In late game, supply is more of a concern than cost, and you can have 3 ghosts (up to 24 snipes) for the supply of one broodlord. Ghosts aren't going to completely shut down Z T3 like they do right now, but with a good gameplan, it seems like they'll still be really good.

On February 17 2012 06:59 AKomrade wrote:

Raven/Viking/Ghost/Hellion maybe? It might require a small nerf of Fungal (or a nice buff of hellion and viking health) so your vikings and hellions wouldn't die instantly and you would also need to use mech, but it might work.

On February 17 2012 07:09 Mr. Nefarious wrote:


I cannot possibly understand why people think Terran now needs a buff. Terran has been above 50% win rate in every single metagame, on every single map pool, in every single match up and at every single level since release. They have won the most GSLs, the most tournaments, have the highest representation in tournaments, have the most top 4's and do not have a single player of any race to have an 75%+ win rate against them at the pro level. Terran gets nerfed every patch yet still, the winrates NEVER drop below 50%. Perhaps it's time to examine the actual design rather than just the numbers. Getting nerfed every single patch must suck, but the numbers are clear and infallible. If you truly feel Terran is just awful, it's time to play as Zerg or Protoss for awhile. As a former Terran player myself, the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

On February 17 2012 06:59 Clarity_nl wrote:

Some sources would be nice.

On February 17 2012 07:09 Mr. Nefarious wrote:


I cannot possibly understand why people think Terran now needs a buff. Terran has been above 50% win rate in every single metagame, on every single map pool, in every single match up and at every single level since release. They have won the most GSLs, the most tournaments, have the highest representation in tournaments, have the most top 4's and do not have a single player of any race to have an 75%+ win rate against them at the pro level. Terran gets nerfed every patch yet still, the winrates NEVER drop below 50%. Perhaps it's time to examine the actual design rather than just the numbers. Getting nerfed every single patch must suck, but the numbers are clear and infallible. If you truly feel Terran is just awful, it's time to play as Zerg or Protoss for awhile. As a former Terran player myself, the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

On February 17 2012 06:04 kcdc wrote:
Am I crazy or will snipe still be decent vs broodlords? In late game, supply is more of a concern than cost, and you can have 3 ghosts (up to 24 snipes) for the supply of one broodlord. Ghosts aren't going to completely shut down Z T3 like they do right now, but with a good gameplan, it seems like they'll still be really good.

On February 17 2012 04:48 ToastieNL wrote:

Drop everywhere. I play a mech style atm, I don't see how dropping everywhere works, especially not vs Broodlord Infestor. Infestors are faster than Tanks it seems, so I don't have that big of a mobility advantage.
Dropping with mech just doesn't work I feel like.

It's the exact same in TvP, what happens when they get 3/3 with tons of charge zealots, collo, archons, and HT's

On February 17 2012 07:59 Noocta wrote:
the winrate is not something we have this high because of lategame TvZ, even with actual ghost believe me.

On February 17 2012 08:22 Elyvilon wrote:

If I wanted to lose to HT/Archon/Blink Stalker, I suppose that would be true.

On February 17 2012 08:46 Elyvilon wrote:

BCs are only kind of bad against HTs, while ravens are actually completely horrible against them. It might be possible to mix BCs into the lategame TvP army, but I doubt it is possible for ravens(even though I like to get one for detection, I don't actually think this is a good idea for good players). That said, building them instead of ghosts or marauders seems like a bad idea, because it leaves your entire army to be countered by templar. I have not found BCs to be particularly helpful in the couple times I've tried them, though.

I actually like thors better, because armor upgraded thors actually tank zealots and colossi okay, but I've never seen pros build them in those situations; maybe it's because then you have yet another set of upgrades you need to do in addition to infantry weapons, infantry armor, air weapons, and potentially air armor. Or maybe it's because they're too slow, I dunno.

On February 17 2012 07:08 architecture wrote:
Stop playing mech.

Mech is a gimmick for maps where you can hit a timing before BL. It cannot stand up to a Zerg that is taking a ton of expos on a bigger map.

On February 17 2012 08:53 Elyvilon wrote:

At full energy, ravens get one-shotted by HTs. Also, PDDs get one-shotted by feedback.

On February 17 2012 08:03 Big J wrote:


even if this nerf goes through, which pretty much noone wants in this form, then the ghost will still be better vs broodlords than it is vs ultras right now.

On February 17 2012 08:27 TheRabidDeer wrote:

Well, according to terrans you lose against HT/archon/blink stalker/colossus already. I mean, you do realize that your mentality of "well it doesnt work" before even trying it AT ALL is what stagnates the races right?

I think once protoss gets up to 3 bases with all their gas and full income, terran needs to begin switching tech out of full bio into something different.

Maybe a couple ravens, working up to a sizeable BC army and marines/cc's as a mineral dump.

On February 17 2012 07:17 Mr. Nefarious wrote:


Here ya go.

http://imgur.com/a/hQHYS

As you can clearly see in the international scene as well as Korea, Terran has never fallen below 50% against either of the other two races since release despite countless changes to balance, maps, metagame and player styles. Also a quick check of the best of the best Zerg players will reveal Vs T winrates only slightly above 50%, while the best Terrans look invincible with 70-80% winrates vs Z and P. All numbers taken straight from TLPD.

As seen clearly above, the only player to break 60% winrate vs T is DRG. With that being said, it's also statistically his worst matchup by nearly 10%.

On February 17 2012 10:03 avilo wrote:
I've already started to develop the answer which is raven accumulation + hsms + ghosts as well.

This will be news to 99% of people on the forums and elsewhere but - ghosts did not need a nerf in the first place because Zerg players already figured out how to deal with it in the CURRENT patch - they just make MORE broodlords, MORE infestors, and MORE corruptors.

So basically, there's his misconception right now that mass ghost is good because no one actually plays into lategame much or just sees a few players do it a couple times with ghosts in a tournament...but mass ghost no longer works even right now in the current lategame TvZ.

On February 17 2012 10:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:

Did you try getting cloak? BL's are really slow, you can snipe any overseer's then send small groups of ghosts in to snipe infestors/BL's no problem.

On February 17 2012 10:43 kBeatz wrote:
I'm loling at all the terrans raging about an insignificant change. Go Marine Tank (and when I say Marine i mean like 90+ marines) and get ghosts for the late game. drop everywhere with your trillion marines, set up good early pushes with your tanks, deny bases, and cloak EMP infestors. if you really feel at the late game that you cant beat the broods then make some vikings or BCs.

On February 17 2012 10:43 kBeatz wrote:
I'm loling at all the terrans raging about an insignificant change. Go Marine Tank (and when I say Marine i mean like 90+ marines) and get ghosts for the late game. drop everywhere with your trillion marines, set up good early pushes with your tanks, deny bases, and cloak EMP infestors. if you really feel at the late game that you cant beat the broods then make some vikings or BCs.

On February 17 2012 11:02 Grobyc wrote:

It sounded like you semi knew what you were talking about until you mentioned BCs. wat? They're going to have corrupters if you go BCs dude :o

On February 17 2012 11:06 Exstasy wrote:


I reckon it's going to have to be:

marine/tank in the early/mid game
transition into ravens on 3-4 bases
getting double upgrades for air,
and then bc production

because P.D.D stops corrupter shots and upgraded BC's do stupid damage, and will nullify an ultra switch

On February 17 2012 11:25 Ashakyre wrote:
All this advice is good, but I wanted to add my own two cents as well. I'm a newly promoted Platinum Zerg, so I feel my perspective 100% unbiased. You would be well served to heed my words of wisdom.

I would certainly agree that there are challenges in a late-game Zerg situation, and it's critical to use every tool at one's disposal to make things easier. What you need to remember is that Marines were never intended to have a long life-span in combat, hence Stim. When facing mass Brood Lords and infestors, you should focus on Marine production and attempt to overrun the Brood Lords in small, tactical attacks. Never send all your Marines at once, and try to focus on all the Brood Lords equally. This way you're not risking too many marines and, by attacking multiple Brood Lords at once, your chances that at least one of them will go down increase dramatically. Using small numbers of Marines to attack Brood Lords in the way should guarantee there are never more than 2 or 3 marines per Brood Lord.

At this point in the game you should have a healthy bank of minerals so I recommend shifting the use of your M.U.L.E.S from an economic to a tactical role. Remember, you'll be using small numbers of Marines to take out Brood Lords, so speed is of the essence. Double or triple stim your Marines for maximum speed and engage the Brood Lords, dropping Mules to absorb broodling damage, and, to increase their longevity, repair one another as well.

You'll need all of your Medevacs for the final stand at your base, so I highly advise against drops during this phase of the game, or during any phase for that matter. Clump up your Marines in front of your wall to maximize firepower, and focus down broodlings. Brood Lords have a preset kill limit, after which they morph into overlords, so all you really need to do is wait it out. Don't worry, it won't last very long.

These tactics are difficult to execute and it will take you at least 50-60 games to master them. Play through the pain. When you reach the end of this process I promise you will have changed the results of this match-up favorably.

If you are having difficulty, there is one final piece of advice I have for you. To be honest, I'm surprised no one mentioned it earlier. I'm not sure I should even discuss it openly, so I'm putting it into spoilers.
+ Show Spoiler +

This advice is guaranteed to be effective. I hope you follow it the next time we meet on ladder.

On February 17 2012 11:25 Ashakyre wrote:
All this advice is good, but I wanted to add my own two cents as well. I'm a newly promoted Platinum Zerg, so I feel my perspective 100% unbiased. You would be well served to heed my words of wisdom.

I would certainly agree that there are challenges in a late-game Zerg situation, and it's critical to use every tool at one's disposal to make things easier. What you need to remember is that Marines were never intended to have a long life-span in combat, hence Stim. When facing mass Brood Lords and infestors, you should focus on Marine production and attempt to overrun the Brood Lords in small, tactical attacks. Never send all your Marines at once, and try to focus on all the Brood Lords equally. This way you're not risking too many marines and, by attacking multiple Brood Lords at once, your chances that at least one of them will go down increase dramatically. Using small numbers of Marines to attack Brood Lords in the way should guarantee there are never more than 2 or 3 marines per Brood Lord.

At this point in the game you should have a healthy bank of minerals so I recommend shifting the use of your M.U.L.E.S from an economic to a tactical role. Remember, you'll be using small numbers of Marines to take out Brood Lords, so speed is of the essence. Double or triple stim your Marines for maximum speed and engage the Brood Lords, dropping Mules to absorb broodling damage, and, to increase their longevity, repair one another as well.

You'll need all of your Medevacs for the final stand at your base, so I highly advise against drops during this phase of the game, or during any phase for that matter. Clump up your Marines in front of your wall to maximize firepower, and focus down broodlings. Brood Lords have a preset kill limit, after which they morph into overlords, so all you really need to do is wait it out. Don't worry, it won't last very long.

These tactics are difficult to execute and it will take you at least 50-60 games to master them. Play through the pain. When you reach the end of this process I promise you will have changed the results of this match-up favorably.

If you are having difficulty, there is one final piece of advice I have for you. To be honest, I'm surprised no one mentioned it earlier. I'm not sure I should even discuss it openly, so I'm putting it into spoilers.
+ Show Spoiler +

This advice is guaranteed to be effective. I hope you follow it the next time we meet on ladder.

On February 17 2012 05:06 Tal0n wrote:
im no T but sounds to me like you should switch into barracks for lategame. ever tried that?

On February 17 2012 04:46 ToastieNL wrote:

Seems like everybody is, the only answer I have seen up to today is Snipe, but that's getting nerfed.

On February 17 2012 13:45 brotosterone wrote:
I'm going to quote theognis: "focus on expansion denial rather than finding the "money mix" in unit composition."

On February 17 2012 11:06 Exstasy wrote:


I reckon it's going to have to be:

marine/tank in the early/mid game
transition into ravens on 3-4 bases
getting double upgrades for air,
and then bc production

because P.D.D stops corrupter shots and upgraded BC's do stupid damage, and will nullify an ultra switch

On February 17 2012 14:15 CatNzHat wrote:


You lack to remember that BCs are slow as shit, and zerg has this unit called the Hyrdalisk, if you combine it with infested terrans, neural parasite, and fungal growth, suddenly sky terran looks pretty stupid.

On February 17 2012 04:52 ToastieNL wrote:
I don't know, more and more am I thinking it's because about 40-45% of their playerbase plays Zerg and they want to keep them happy and give them a autowin buttong very strong, simple to use and very, very hard to counter unit composition.

On February 17 2012 13:01 Artline wrote:


Multiple stims have the same effect as a single stim, except the units will have multiples of 10 or 20 HP less. Wait nevermind, you definitely don't know what you're talking about.

Anyway TvZ lategame is possible without ghost snipes at all. But if Zerg has so much income there's no point arguing about the composition being imbalanced. Getting 10+ broodlords 20+ corrupters isn't actually easy for a Zerg.

On February 17 2012 06:04 kcdc wrote:
Am I crazy or will snipe still be decent vs broodlords? In late game, supply is more of a concern than cost, and you can have 3 ghosts (up to 24 snipes) for the supply of one broodlord. Ghosts aren't going to completely shut down Z T3 like they do right now, but with a good gameplan, it seems like they'll still be really good.

On February 17 2012 13:45 brotosterone wrote:
I'm going to quote theognis: "focus on expansion denial rather than finding the "money mix" in unit composition."

On February 17 2012 15:03 Simberto wrote:


It is amazing how bad people are at detecting satire. Getting one or two things is possible, but when every single point in the post is the exact opposite of what makes sense, you should be careful when replying.

On February 17 2012 15:36 Elyvilon wrote:

Infinite? Cool. List 5 things zerg can do that beat mass ghost. After all, if there's infinite, it shouldn't be hard.

On February 17 2012 14:25 jupiter6 wrote:
haha while i read this topic i get "zergs just need to use nydus" flashbacks

On February 17 2012 17:28 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
man, you read this advice and flat out say you aren't going to try it... thats like me saying, hey marines kill me a lot, what kills marines? And they say speedbanes. but i say no, i play roach i dont want to use banes, omg! thinly veiled balance whine detected >_> and not even a replay

On February 17 2012 15:39 avilo wrote:


Realistically, that only works vs Zergs that have less multi-task than you. When you start playing the uber Zergs/Protosses that also have good multi-tasking and map awareness...they WILL get those expansions.

The only reasons dropships were very effective before was because Terran players in general often times had better multi-task than Z/Ps but now Z/Ps have gotten better in general and better players have started to pick up Z/P so those 4 drops you did in 4 different locations...the Zerg is able to stop in all 4 locations at once (protosses too)-_- that's when the lategame issues begin to crop up and you do indeed have to find that "money mix" unit composition.

On February 17 2012 17:09 Apaquin wrote:


To name a few?

1. Do something different before mass ghosts come out.
2. Do something else different before mass ghosts come out
3. Do yet another thing different before mass ghosts come out
.
.
.



People don't like to remember the fact that a whole game has to take place before the late game unit combos come out. If you've set yourself up in a dominate position then there are 1000's of ways to beat mass ghost. Just as there are surely at least a 100 different ways to beat mass ghost if a zerg has reached that stage of the game with one of the infinite combinations of zerg unit compositions, base defenses, upgrades, etc, etc and is up against one of the infinite combinations of unit compositions, base defenses, upgrades the terran has when transitioning into mass ghost on map such and such. Maybe there are only 32 decent ways to beat mass ghost when a zerg is somewhat behind with whatever crap vs whatever crap a terran has. Its just that the question doesn't have any meaning without a huge backstory behind it, because there are literally an infinite number of ways a game could play out with a zerg beating mass ghosts.

On February 18 2012 00:28 ThomasHobbes wrote:
It takes 5 base gas to operate broodlird / infestor properly, by this point in the game the Zerg has undoubtably survived multiple pushes and a boatload of drops. Why do you think there should be an easy solution to broodlord infestor, when it is the only cost efficient comp zerg gets all game?

Your obsession with mech is telling. First, don't be spoiled, not every composition is suited for 100% of occasions. Yeah, you're going to have to swap away somewhat from the easiest composition on record, deal with it.

On February 17 2012 13:49 Tump wrote:

You realize because something is getting nerfed doesn't mean you can't use it anymore....right?

Colossus got nerfed like 3 times in beta. Does that mean Protoss isn't going to use Colossus anymore?

Infestors Fungal Growth got nerfed. Does that mean Zerg isn't going to use Infestors anymore?

Honestly, this thread is pointless. Your post history is filled with similar posts. You're a Diamond Terran. Go play ladder games and get good at the game. When you're at the top level, you're qualified to whine about game balance.



This quote speaks so much truth it hurts that this thread even exists. The Ghost is still the same guy for the job. It just won't be as easy. Play the game.

On February 18 2012 01:10 Kryptonite wrote:
Raven/Viking/Ghost, PDD for any Corruptors, Vikings for the Broodlords, Ghosts for the Infestors. Boom roasted.

On February 18 2012 01:31 XXXSmOke wrote:
Versus the BL/Infestor combo,your supposed to drop everywhere, limiting the gas intake of the Z so he cant remax the big T3 units, Everything else gets eaten by rines at this point, even a remax of lings is no match for PF's and sim citys with marines.

But.

What do you do when the Z gets 8 spines at each base???

On February 18 2012 03:02 Citherna wrote:
If you're going mech, generally you do a maxed doom push that kills the Zerg before BL/Infestors. Don't expect to win a mech game vs. Zerg very late in the game, (unless you're like MvP), because only Thors (and potentially Vikings) will be able to shoot up, and neither are very good at taking out Brood Lords.

Worse still, you're equally as immobile as the Zerg late-game army, (so drops are very difficult to accomplish cost-effectively), AND in a straight-up fight you'll lose. I'd consider just going marine tank medivac, and then transition ghosts/ a few marauders.

If you're stuck on going mech though, get ghosts as soon as possible. Sounds counterintuitive, but you have a barracks early anyway, and mech generally tends to float a lot of minerals, so expand as much as you can as well. Divide the map with siege tank positioning, try not to die, and stall out until you get your unbeatable army of ghost, viking, siege tank, thor.

And I agree with the above poster about imbalances: don't complain about imbalances unless you're tip-top GM level. Of -course- Zerg late-game is going to kill you if you don't transition from Terran midgame; that's how it should be. Every race has some situation in which it's imbalanced, and it's up to the player to get into that position as often as possible.

On February 17 2012 18:31 Eligh wrote:
Raven, pdd and seeker missle is strong against broodlord/ infestor but then it sucks against the ultra tech switch after trading the broodlord army... unless massively changes happened, raven will never be a likely composition for TvZ lategame... also the investment of infrastructure, time and ressources is too high... i will try to decide the game before the lategame, its getting harder an harder the longer the game takes against Z... and believe me guys, that will be not the last nerf to terran...

On February 18 2012 03:35 PrinceXizor wrote:

you are going to complain that i'm suggesting this but i mean it seriously.

seeker missile works vs ultras, you have have to seeker the larva at hatches before the ultra switch, limiting the number of ultras that can come out to 3 to 6 and all of a sudden ultas stop being a threat to your army period.

On February 18 2012 04:09 Naeroon wrote:


Just to clarify, are you suggesting all I need to do to win against ultras is fly a raven directly into my opponents base and HSM the larva?

i... just.. . . dont even. . . . . .. . . .

u____u;

On February 18 2012 04:09 Naeroon wrote:


Just to clarify, are you suggesting all I need to do to win against ultras is fly a raven directly into my opponents base and HSM the larva?

i... just.. . . dont even. . . . . .. . . .

u____u;

On February 18 2012 00:52 Elyvilon wrote:

So there's two options here: either there are a ton of options to beat it, in which case it doesn't need to be nerfed, or you're referring to the "don't let them get there" answer, which zergs have informed me is not a legitimate answer to mass ghosts(although some of those same players seem to think it is a legitimate answer to lategame zerg, oddly).

On February 18 2012 04:46 PrinceXizor wrote:


no i'm not, but if you invested in a large group of ravens to fight BL infestor (which they kill extremely well) that a couple HSMs on the larva right before a big engagement cripples zergs reproduction rate.

if you kill the larva at the macro hatch the natural and the main, which is only 3 HSM,s then zergs will often only be able to reinforce from the third and forth base, which are usually spread out from eachother. suddenly zerg at most can reproduce with 28 larva (if they stockpiled 14 larva a hatch) which they can use to make either only ultras or ultras with a pittance of zerglings. typical ultra ling would be 8 ultras and 40 lings from than which would be only 68 supply. surely a terran army can eliminate 68 supply of zerg.

In late game scenerios marauder drops or HSMs to the larva can completely eliminate a zergs ability to reproduce after a fight. which is zergs ONLY advantage in the late game against terran realistically.

you could also use ghosts with snipe and cloak, thors, marauders, unsieged tanks, upgraded banshees to do the same job but slower than ravens. protoss can use storm, collosus, archon, to do it quickly and immortals to do it slowly, zerg has fungal and banelings.

if you look at larva like factories and barracks it makes alot of sense, eliminating production facilities right before a big engagement gives the player without crippled reproduction a huge advantage.

On February 18 2012 05:01 Naeroon wrote:

its not a question of it 'only being 3 HSMs' (as if that could ever be the case given the energy requirement[and thus time requirement] of HSM)... The real question is, especially if this is right before a big engagement, how in the fuck am I supposed to just fly in 3 ravens with full energy by themselves (and as if any backup would be helpful) and easily get off 3 HSMs right in the absolute heart of the zergs base, no biggie? Like, are you kidding me? You seem to ignore the fact that the zerg will obviously chase them all down and murder them before they can get anywhere CLOSE to the base... and then you just gave away 3 full energy ravens for absolutely nothing, you didn't even manage to see anything in his base cuz you never got near it because you made the fully retarded decision to just amove them into their base with nothing backing them up.

After that, T is completely fucked and essentially threw away the game.

EDIT: And just to add... for this to work, you're trying to limit larva so he can't build enough ultras, right? Ok, well if this is lategame (since he has that kind of unit comp), he more than likely has 6+ hatcheries (including macro hatcheries here). 3 HSMs are going to kill every larva? Yeah ok. And on that many hatcheries, there will be about 18 more larva in just a few seconds, not even including inject larva. I'm sorry but I'm really fucking confused as to how what you say is supposed to work at all

On February 18 2012 05:32 PeanutsNJam wrote:
This raven stuff sounds nice but it takes god-like multitasking micro as well as a big money investment. Drops better, killing ultra den > killing larva.

On February 18 2012 04:02 Kakoon wrote:
@KAmaKAsa
hunter seeker missile wont work vs corrupters cause it doesnt do enough damage

But pdd is good vs all zerg AA except fungal :D

On February 18 2012 05:52 PeanutsNJam wrote:
BC are a good unit. Terran doesn't have bad units.

On February 18 2012 05:54 KAmaKAsa wrote:


umm HSM does splash and it does like 100 dmg? and corrupters have like 200 so i think its pretty high damage and the idea is to kite with vikings and the corrupters follow and clump up and then you hsm

On February 18 2012 06:11 shizna wrote:


but if the zerg player isn't awful he'll be wary of getting into 6 range of raven, and if HSM comes along he does a split which is like 234 times easier than marine split vs banelings and the HSM does 100 damage plus about ~30 splash damage to 3 other corruptors.

On February 17 2012 04:49 jupiter6 wrote:
its funny because if it wasnt for broken vortex mechanic protoss also wouldnt have an answer to bl/infestor yet blizzard doesnt seem to care how stupid strong and easy to use it is

On February 18 2012 06:13 PrinceXizor wrote:

thats why you aim at the brood lord clump, they can't split in time. and they can't exactly reposition too quickly to avoid in the first place.

On February 18 2012 05:51 HardCorey wrote:
I honestly want to try using Yamato cannon as a counter to broodlords. Has anyone tried this? Is this viable even in a theorycrafting sense?

On February 18 2012 06:29 moregamethanSEGA wrote:



i swear on everything that is holy... if ONE MORE PERSON says that 'Ravens are the answer' imma seriously FLIP OUT on ya'll.

Try WATCHING people play before theorizing impractical scenarios which will NEVER WORK. The investment into ravens is just too substantal - including the opportunity cost for not making medivacs tanks and vikings - not to mention the insane amount of time and gas required to get just one raven with a HSM... its sucha joke.

I beg you, please don't fill peoples' heads with such nonsense.

On February 17 2012 04:49 jupiter6 wrote:
its funny because if it wasnt for broken vortex mechanic protoss also wouldnt have an answer to bl/infestor yet blizzard doesnt seem to care how stupid strong and easy to use it is

On February 18 2012 06:51 Zheryn wrote:


Except that it's pretty damn useless unless you micro it very well. One miss-step and imba EMP disables the whole idea of your army.

On February 18 2012 06:51 Zheryn wrote:
Except that it's pretty damn useless unless you micro it very well. One miss-step and imba EMP disables the whole idea of your army.

On February 18 2012 16:04 Honeybadger wrote:
Personally, I've found mass brood to lose to pure thor/hellion with 3/3. Thors up front, hellions behind roasting the broodlings so the thors can get into range and pound the broodlords. But while that works in diamond/low masters for me, high masters zergs will just neural me to death.

On February 18 2012 18:44 Zarahtra wrote:

Have like 4-6 tanks and siege them if you see roach or infestor coming. While it will take the siege time to disable the NP infestors, it should be relatively fast. Biggest concern is imo when the BLs start catching up on armor ups to the attack ups of the thors. Like I've said a few times already here, at that time I feel terran should be transitioning into ravens + pfs along with a bit of mech for standing ground army.

Also theoretically ghosts nuking would be a great tool to clear up spine walls, be it for bio drop play or hellion roasting.

(Still a really redicilous change, terran needs the ghost to stand on even footing to the way over the top BL+infestor, just like protoss needs the vortex to do the same. The synergy between those 2 units along with the remax potential of the zerg race is just way to great).

On February 17 2012 04:52 ToastieNL wrote:
I don't know, more and more am I thinking it's because about 40-45% of their playerbase plays Zerg and they want to keep them happy and give them a autowin buttong very strong, simple to use and very, very hard to counter unit composition.

On February 18 2012 23:16 DreamChaser wrote:
I am not a terran but why cant you go Viking + Ghosts(EMP)? Or Viking + Marauders?

On February 18 2012 23:25 turdburgler wrote:
because the terran army doesnt need to win the fight, it needs to win 2 fights. whatever army you make to beat x composition also needs to beat their obvious transition. viking marauder would just rolled by the reload. thats always been the problem. ghosts deal with everything well, which is why they are so good late game but not really early/mid-game. cost for cost, unless you can bank 200 energy they arent that super, but its their versatility that makes them so good late.

On February 18 2012 04:33 Simberto wrote:


No. You need to fly into EVERY base of your opponent, and HSM ALL the larvae at the same time you are killing his army.

I am Zerg, and even i think that sounds stupid. Regarding ghosts, it does not really apply to me since my opponents are not good enough to use ghosts to a good effect at the moment, so i will let people who actually encounter them debate that.

On February 18 2012 05:51 HardCorey wrote:
I honestly want to try using Yamato cannon as a counter to broodlords. Has anyone tried this? Is this viable even in a theorycrafting sense?

On February 19 2012 02:17 secretary bird wrote:
Dont let it get to the lategame. Ever. Problem solved. You might see players like MVP still dominating in the lategame but you sure as hell cant so just avoid it at all costs. You dont have to cheese but if you cant cripple his economy try to allin and if it fails leave the game. If you ever see significant numbers of infestor/BL again its because you stuck around even though you already lost.

But to answer your question remember that ghosts can still neutralize infestors and marines own BLs without any support so if he has no other units you can beat it provided you dont allow him to get any fungals on your marines.

cloak->scan->emp->stim and run close to him->snipe infestors->counter

defensive nukes to buy time and drops are also good against infestor/BL

On February 17 2012 11:22 shizna wrote:


BC is really good if you're already significantly ahead, but otherwise it's pretty awful. BC damage is pathetic against upgraded corruptor, ultralisk or broodlord and yamato takes longer to recharge than it takes a zerg with a decent economy to remax.

battlecruiser is like what tier3 should be. not like silly zerg t3 where they can rush it at 15-20 minutes and be rediculously powerful.

On February 18 2012 22:34 Big J wrote:

Zerg needs the infestor and the broodlord to be able to beat the maxed tank/marine/medivac army. I don't see what the problem is in Terran and Protoss needing to rely on such things like mothership, templar, ghost and viking in these scenarios.
Not to mention that I have yet to see a zerg that remaxes on half the quality of his main army. Zerg needs to trade very supplyefficient (=win the first engagement), that the second wave of "half the cost/strength" units has a chance against the compositions that zerg needed BL+infestor in the first place.

On February 18 2012 22:50 4Servy wrote:
if seeker missles wernt so shit useless, and actualy forced zergs to split up some stuff a bit more, there wouldnt be a problem dealing with lategame zerg without ghosts. As is, its 100% chanceless without ghosts you will just get molested once there are overe 6-7 broods and a good economy. Even with equal bases to zerg there is not to much you can do. Dropping can help you to some point but really its limited especialy there is a point when there is no comparrision anymore to what terran has to do to win a game and for zerg to lose it.

On February 18 2012 01:10 Kryptonite wrote:
Raven/Viking/Ghost, PDD for any Corruptors, Vikings for the Broodlords, Ghosts for the Infestors. Boom roasted.

On February 18 2012 01:23 Tenks wrote:



Is this theoretical Terran on like 8 base gas?

On February 17 2012 04:55 ToastieNL wrote:

Snipe is becoming useless to everything but infestors. That's why it becomes useless vs Broodlord/Infestor, because of the broodlord aspect.

On February 24 2012 03:55 Roblin wrote:


1 broodlord dies from 11 snipes nowadays.

yes, this is a lot more than before.

1 ghost with max energy can have 8 snipes

2 ghosts can kill 1 broodlord as long as 1 ghost has 125 energy and the second has 150 energy or more.

4 supply/400 minerals/200 gas kills 4 supply/300 minerals/250gas basicly instantly.

every infestor is 2 supply.

so as long as you have an army of ghosts that match his supply, you should actually be able to kill his entire army with basicly no casualties.

I would say ghosts are still quite viable. just not as OP as before, and blizz probably overdid it, but ghosts are still viable.

p.s. dont even try to say "400mins/200gas is way more expensive than 300mins/250 gas because terran is limited by minerals, not gas"
I answer: yea, well zerg is limited by gas and not minerals so the difference is actually just 50 resources since both sides use a lot of the stuff they dont have much of.

On February 24 2012 04:48 IMoperator wrote:
How do you guys play vs. ling infestor? I go marine tank, but I never know where, when or how to engage a ling/infestor using zergs. I know to use drops, but infestors still wreck my marines and tanks and then they get out t3 while I'm still on marine/tank and can't get enough ghosts out so I lose.

On February 24 2012 04:55 Blasterion wrote:

You kinda have to make ghosts against infestor if you are going marine tank. if it's mech then you just go kill him with a 0/3 Thorlion army

On February 17 2012 05:07 ToastieNL wrote:

But I'd be very far behind on upgrades, as well as not having the infrastructure. Is the only way for mech to survive lategame to not be mech anymore? That's stupid....

On February 24 2012 04:42 DarKFoRcE wrote:
If you are able to make the transition, mass raven with some ghosts/vikings is really strong. its effectiveness might depend on the map tho.