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Just sit on your ass and do nothing.
The only style I have trouble playing against in ZvT is where all they do is turtle on 3/4 bases behind tanks, mass ghosts, and whatever other units they have (marines/marauders/medivacs). In fact, I just played a 40 minute ZvT on Cloud Kingdom where that exact thing happened. He sat around doing nothing for 40 minutes, except for one point where he dropped a bunch of places at once (which I held pretty comfortably, so it's not relevant). I spent the last 25 minutes of that game trying to break him with anything I could think of. I tried ultra/ling, pure ling, ling/bane, and BL/infestor. Every single time, I killed his 4th base, but was unable to advance any further because it cost me my entire army to kill that one base. Every one of your games will probably take 40 minutes, but you'll be winning a lot of them.
Yeah, snipe is getting nerfed, but it's still a powerful spell. I guarantee that a month from now (or from whenever the patch hits), once people get over the "OMG NERF, THIS UNIT IS NOW WORTHLESS" mentality, we'll be pretty much back to where we are right now, though not quite because snipe won't be completely broken. The exact same thing happened with both the HT and infestor nerfs.
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I'm going to quote theognis: "focus on expansion denial rather than finding the "money mix" in unit composition."
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On February 17 2012 05:06 Tal0n wrote:
im no T but sounds to me like you should switch into barracks for lategame. ever tried that?
how about try that every game. terran winrates vs zerg past the 20 minute mark are around 30-40% (exact numbers are on TL somewhere). in the last game i played, i was producing vikings off of 5 starports only for the zerg to completely stop making corruptor/broodlord and walk into my base with ling/bling.
i hate how players who can't macro for shit only get better at zerg as their macro gets worse.
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On February 17 2012 04:46 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 04:39 Psilo wrote:
I got owned by corruptor/BL's yesterday and i could use some pointers too. (i am terran) Seems like everybody is, the only answer I have seen up to today is Snipe, but that's getting nerfed.
You realize because something is getting nerfed doesn't mean you can't use it anymore....right?
Colossus got nerfed like 3 times in beta. Does that mean Protoss isn't going to use Colossus anymore?
Infestors Fungal Growth got nerfed. Does that mean Zerg isn't going to use Infestors anymore?
Honestly, this thread is pointless. Your post history is filled with similar posts. You're a Diamond Terran. Go play ladder games and get good at the game. When you're at the top level, you're qualified to whine about game balance.
On February 17 2012 13:45 brotosterone wrote:
I'm going to quote theognis: "focus on expansion denial rather than finding the "money mix" in unit composition."
This quote speaks so much truth it hurts that this thread even exists. The Ghost is still the same guy for the job. It just won't be as easy. Play the game.
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ravens are really good late game however i feel it only transitions well from mech but maybe not
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why do u think ghosts are going to be completely unused after the patch? that's what you're trying to practice for, which is unnecessary. ghosts will still dominate vs infestors and you can still use them to kill broodlords (ultras not so much, 18+ snipes per is alot) also if you can use your ghosts to take out infestors or even just emp a couple times you can use vikings to kill all the bls and corrupters. this does also mean that as was said before, you can't try to engage right in front of your base, you have to allow enough time to build units to defend in case you lose the engagement. (by this time you should have been investing a large chunk of your gas into more factories and maybe an extra starport or two instead of just floating the gas and not knowing what to do with it. if you can get enough factories to remax in one cycle it'll be plenty of time)
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Anyone else think its pretty neat that terran players are starting to actually have to think about and discuss strategy? Its almost like a single type of unit won't cut it for TvZ late game anymore, crazy stuff isn't it? Perhaps terrans will have to use different types of units at the same time and perhaps even switch units throughout the game! It seems like leaving terran so strong for so long has left the lower level terrans in the dark ages when it comes to strategy and adapting. This is the same flavor
of whining that zergs and protoss were really into 6 months ago.
"X is really strong in the lategame, how do I beat X?" Someday people will realize that there are an infinite number of legitimate answers to that question.
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On February 17 2012 11:06 Exstasy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 11:02 Grobyc wrote:On February 17 2012 10:43 kBeatz wrote:
I'm loling at all the terrans raging about an insignificant change. Go Marine Tank (and when I say Marine i mean like 90+ marines) and get ghosts for the late game. drop everywhere with your trillion marines, set up good early pushes with your tanks, deny bases, and cloak EMP infestors. if you really feel at the late game that you cant beat the broods then make some vikings or BCs. It sounded like you semi knew what you were talking about until you mentioned BCs. wat? They're going to have corrupters if you go BCs dude :o I reckon it's going to have to be: marine/tank in the early/mid game transition into ravens on 3-4 bases getting double upgrades for air, and then bc production because P.D.D stops corrupter shots and upgraded BC's do stupid damage, and will nullify an ultra switch
You lack to remember that BCs are slow as shit, and zerg has this unit called the Hyrdalisk, if you combine it with infested terrans, neural parasite, and fungal growth, suddenly sky terran looks pretty stupid.
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haha while i read this topic i get "zergs just need to use nydus" flashbacks
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On February 17 2012 14:15 CatNzHat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 11:06 Exstasy wrote:On February 17 2012 11:02 Grobyc wrote:On February 17 2012 10:43 kBeatz wrote:
I'm loling at all the terrans raging about an insignificant change. Go Marine Tank (and when I say Marine i mean like 90+ marines) and get ghosts for the late game. drop everywhere with your trillion marines, set up good early pushes with your tanks, deny bases, and cloak EMP infestors. if you really feel at the late game that you cant beat the broods then make some vikings or BCs. It sounded like you semi knew what you were talking about until you mentioned BCs. wat? They're going to have corrupters if you go BCs dude :o I reckon it's going to have to be: marine/tank in the early/mid game transition into ravens on 3-4 bases getting double upgrades for air, and then bc production because P.D.D stops corrupter shots and upgraded BC's do stupid damage, and will nullify an ultra switch You lack to remember that BCs are slow as shit, and zerg has this unit called the Hyrdalisk, if you combine it with infested terrans, neural parasite, and fungal growth, suddenly sky terran looks pretty stupid.
Yeah, because getting Hydras vs Terran is a great idea. They melt to both Terran mineral dumps and Tanks. (note that I like the idea of Hydras in ZvT)
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Vatican City State733 Posts
On February 17 2012 04:52 ToastieNL wrote:
I don't know, more and more am I thinking it's because about 40-45% of their playerbase plays Zerg and they want to keep them happy and give them a autowin buttong very strong, simple to use and very, very hard to counter unit composition.
Yeah, this is definitely the case. They have no desire to create a balanced game that will become the centerpiece of the esports crusade. They just want to take the 40ish percent of the playerbase and keep them happy....
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loooooool this guy isn't even taking advice hes just venting about how bad he is vs zerg. Go to the rage thread or something.
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Currently, pre 1.4.3, late game TvZ is frankly boring. The goal of the Terran is to constantly keep the Zerg in check until the Terran has every single marine replaced with a Ghost, while still producing a largely bio + tank + medivac force, with a smattering of Thors/Vikings.
Post 1.4.3, things will become more dynamic. The end game composition will change to a prodominantly Viking, Tank, Bio force, which constantly adapts. Sorry, the hero Ghost unit is gone.
As Terran, the game will be less about the # of snipes availlable, and more about controlling space, using the large range of Thors, Vikings and Tanks. Add in Plantary Fortress and Sensor towers, and the ultimate Terran diffence is possible.
Add in a Bio force to drop/poke and serve as the mobile aspect of the army.
However, the one caveat is the map dependancy. As maps evolve to be larger, and contain a large number of bases, Terran will be fine.
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On February 17 2012 13:01 Artline wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 11:25 Ashakyre wrote:All this advice is good, but I wanted to add my own two cents as well. I'm a newly promoted Platinum Zerg, so I feel my perspective 100% unbiased. You would be well served to heed my words of wisdom. I would certainly agree that there are challenges in a late-game Zerg situation, and it's critical to use every tool at one's disposal to make things easier. What you need to remember is that Marines were never intended to have a long life-span in combat, hence Stim. When facing mass Brood Lords and infestors, you should focus on Marine production and attempt to overrun the Brood Lords in small, tactical attacks. Never send all your Marines at once, and try to focus on all the Brood Lords equally. This way you're not risking too many marines and, by attacking multiple Brood Lords at once, your chances that at least one of them will go down increase dramatically. Using small numbers of Marines to attack Brood Lords in the way should guarantee there are never more than 2 or 3 marines per Brood Lord. At this point in the game you should have a healthy bank of minerals so I recommend shifting the use of your M.U.L.E.S from an economic to a tactical role. Remember, you'll be using small numbers of Marines to take out Brood Lords, so speed is of the essence. Double or triple stim your Marines for maximum speed and engage the Brood Lords, dropping Mules to absorb broodling damage, and, to increase their longevity, repair one another as well. You'll need all of your Medevacs for the final stand at your base, so I highly advise against drops during this phase of the game, or during any phase for that matter. Clump up your Marines in front of your wall to maximize firepower, and focus down broodlings. Brood Lords have a preset kill limit, after which they morph into overlords, so all you really need to do is wait it out. Don't worry, it won't last very long. These tactics are difficult to execute and it will take you at least 50-60 games to master them. Play through the pain. When you reach the end of this process I promise you will have changed the results of this match-up favorably. If you are having difficulty, there is one final piece of advice I have for you. To be honest, I'm surprised no one mentioned it earlier. I'm not sure I should even discuss it openly, so I'm putting it into spoilers. + Show Spoiler + When the going gets very difficult, and you have no other options, there is one more unit in the Terran arsenal which has undeniable potential to alter the matchup: the Super Ghost. You need to be extremely careful how you use this unit. It costs no resources, takes up no supply, and guarantees victory. The Super Ghost will make the Zerg army disappear from your screen instantly. To access the Super Ghost, take a deep breath, and press F10 and then press N. The secret is to press it really fast, otherwise it won't work. The Zerg army will disappear from your screen, and a favorable result will have been achieved. It might take 20 or 30 tries to master this technique, and again, you have to play through the pain, but I guarantee a favorable result. This advice is guaranteed to be effective. I hope you follow it the next time we meet on ladder. Multiple stims have the same effect as a single stim, except the units will have multiples of 10 or 20 HP less. Wait nevermind, you definitely don't know what you're talking about. Anyway TvZ lategame is possible without ghost snipes at all. But if Zerg has so much income there's no point arguing about the composition being imbalanced. Getting 10+ broodlords 20+ corrupters isn't actually easy for a Zerg.
It is amazing how bad people are at detecting satire. Getting one or two things is possible, but when every single point in the post is the exact opposite of what makes sense, you should be careful when replying.
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United States13143 Posts
On February 17 2012 14:13 Apaquin wrote:
Anyone else think its pretty neat that terran players are starting to actually have to think about and discuss strategy? Its almost like a single type of unit won't cut it for TvZ late game anymore, crazy stuff isn't it? Perhaps terrans will have to use different types of units at the same time and perhaps even switch units throughout the game! It seems like leaving terran so strong for so long has left the lower level terrans in the dark ages when it comes to strategy and adapting. This is the same flavor
of whining that zergs and protoss were really into 6 months ago.
"X is really strong in the lategame, how do I beat X?" Someday people will realize that there are an infinite number of legitimate answers to that question.
Infinite? Cool. List 5 things zerg can do that beat mass ghost. After all, if there's infinite, it shouldn't be hard.
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On February 17 2012 06:04 kcdc wrote:
Am I crazy or will snipe still be decent vs broodlords? In late game, supply is more of a concern than cost, and you can have 3 ghosts (up to 24 snipes) for the supply of one broodlord. Ghosts aren't going to completely shut down Z T3 like they do right now, but with a good gameplan, it seems like they'll still be really good.
I may be mistaken, but aren't BL 2 supply?
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On February 17 2012 13:45 brotosterone wrote:
I'm going to quote theognis: "focus on expansion denial rather than finding the "money mix" in unit composition."
Realistically, that only works vs Zergs that have less multi-task than you. When you start playing the uber Zergs/Protosses that also have good multi-tasking and map awareness...they WILL get those expansions.
The only reasons dropships were very effective before was because Terran players in general often times had better multi-task than Z/Ps but now Z/Ps have gotten better in general and better players have started to pick up Z/P so those 4 drops you did in 4 different locations...the Zerg is able to stop in all 4 locations at once (protosses too)-_- that's when the lategame issues begin to crop up and you do indeed have to find that "money mix" unit composition.
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Constantly scout his hive timing and keep tabs on his unit composition via hellion harass/scan/scv scout...If you know he's going for the infestor/BL/corrupter composition throw down 3-4 starports and a second armory if you dont already have one as you take your 4th base.
I will do this to ensure I can keep up with the zerg air force, and the second armory is for +1 air armor in conjunction with raven PDD it helps tank damage from corrupters a ton.
If he switches into ultra set up PF's to help defend and hold a position on the map that can defend your additional expansions...Vikings don't become completely useless once he stops making broods/corrupters...fly them around and snipe overlords or land and kill drones if/when you can.
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anyone know when this patch is set to be out?
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the correct answer is a 2base all in
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EPT
