EPT1.4.3 How to kill lategame Zerg? - Page 9
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PeanutsNJam
United States175 Posts
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Apaquin
United States27 Posts
On February 18 2012 00:52 Elyvilon wrote: So there's two options here: either there are a ton of options to beat it, in which case it doesn't need to be nerfed, or you're referring to the "don't let them get there" answer, which zergs have informed me is not a legitimate answer to mass ghosts(although some of those same players seem to think it is a legitimate answer to lategame zerg, oddly). I didn't say that at all. I'm just telling you there are countless things you can do to beat mass ghosts before they come out. Just as there are surely many things that you can do as they come out. But if they've come out and you're down on bases and down on upgrades and down on expansions and down on supply? Then there aren't too many good ways to deal with mass ghost. Its the whole reason why there are no replays in this thread, because then we would find a reason why whoever lost a game lost it and the people complaining would actually have to substantiate their complaints in the realm of reality. Overall, the point is that low level players keep wanting a single solution to a problem that has infinite solutions that are each extremely dependent on a given situation. Its like asking how to put out a forest fire that has partially engulfed your house. Sure there are plenty of solutions to the forest fire at that moment, but most solutions would have to begin their implementation before half your house is gone. Same goes for mass ghosts, same goes for broodlord infestor, same goes for any late game unit combo precisely because its a LATEGAME unit combo. How you set yourself up in the lategame matters just as much as the unit combo in question. Forest fires are really good when blazing around my house, how do I beat them? Broodlord infestor is really good when massed around the map, how do I beat them? Just like you aren't going to get too many good answers to the first question, you aren't going to get any complete or accurate answers to the second. Its like asking how to achieve world peace without ever once talking about the current situation in the world. You can't just ignore the present and past and then somehow still magically get the future you want. | ||
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Naeroon
Canada166 Posts
On February 18 2012 04:46 PrinceXizor wrote: no i'm not, but if you invested in a large group of ravens to fight BL infestor (which they kill extremely well) that a couple HSMs on the larva right before a big engagement cripples zergs reproduction rate. if you kill the larva at the macro hatch the natural and the main, which is only 3 HSM,s then zergs will often only be able to reinforce from the third and forth base, which are usually spread out from eachother. suddenly zerg at most can reproduce with 28 larva (if they stockpiled 14 larva a hatch) which they can use to make either only ultras or ultras with a pittance of zerglings. typical ultra ling would be 8 ultras and 40 lings from than which would be only 68 supply. surely a terran army can eliminate 68 supply of zerg. In late game scenerios marauder drops or HSMs to the larva can completely eliminate a zergs ability to reproduce after a fight. which is zergs ONLY advantage in the late game against terran realistically. you could also use ghosts with snipe and cloak, thors, marauders, unsieged tanks, upgraded banshees to do the same job but slower than ravens. protoss can use storm, collosus, archon, to do it quickly and immortals to do it slowly, zerg has fungal and banelings. if you look at larva like factories and barracks it makes alot of sense, eliminating production facilities right before a big engagement gives the player without crippled reproduction a huge advantage. its not a question of it 'only being 3 HSMs' (as if that could ever be the case given the energy requirement[and thus time requirement] of HSM)... The real question is, especially if this is right before a big engagement, how in the fuck am I supposed to just fly in 3 ravens with full energy by themselves (and as if any backup would be helpful) and easily get off 3 HSMs right in the absolute heart of the zergs base, no biggie? Like, are you kidding me? You seem to ignore the fact that the zerg will obviously chase them all down and murder them before they can get anywhere CLOSE to the base... and then you just gave away 3 full energy ravens for absolutely nothing, you didn't even manage to see anything in his base cuz you never got near it because you made the fully retarded decision to just amove them into their base. After that, T is completely fucked and essentially threw away the game. EDIT: And just to add... for this to work, you're trying to limit larva so he can't build enough ultras, right? Ok, well if this is lategame (since he has that kind of unit comp), he more than likely has 6+ hatcheries (including macro hatcheries here). 3 HSMs are going to kill every larva? Yeah ok. And on that many hatcheries, there will be about 18 more larva in just a few seconds, not even including inject larva. I'm sorry but I'm really fucking confused as to how what you say is supposed to work at all EDIT2: also apologies for derailing the shit out of this thread. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On February 18 2012 05:01 Naeroon wrote: its not a question of it 'only being 3 HSMs' (as if that could ever be the case given the energy requirement[and thus time requirement] of HSM)... The real question is, especially if this is right before a big engagement, how in the fuck am I supposed to just fly in 3 ravens with full energy by themselves (and as if any backup would be helpful) and easily get off 3 HSMs right in the absolute heart of the zergs base, no biggie? Like, are you kidding me? You seem to ignore the fact that the zerg will obviously chase them all down and murder them before they can get anywhere CLOSE to the base... and then you just gave away 3 full energy ravens for absolutely nothing, you didn't even manage to see anything in his base cuz you never got near it because you made the fully retarded decision to just amove them into their base with nothing backing them up. After that, T is completely fucked and essentially threw away the game. EDIT: And just to add... for this to work, you're trying to limit larva so he can't build enough ultras, right? Ok, well if this is lategame (since he has that kind of unit comp), he more than likely has 6+ hatcheries (including macro hatcheries here). 3 HSMs are going to kill every larva? Yeah ok. And on that many hatcheries, there will be about 18 more larva in just a few seconds, not even including inject larva. I'm sorry but I'm really fucking confused as to how what you say is supposed to work at all Soo drops never work for you either? since they just get shot down before they even get there? maybe you should learn how to get flying units to an opponents base if you think all you do is "amove them". if a Z is playing vs mech and has BL infestor they often have few if any mutalisks left, leaving them open to drops and flying harrassment which means you can sneak ravens into an opponents base, ravens are tougher than they look, either the zerg moves his corruptors away from the front lines to intercept you, which gives you an opportunity to snipe broodlords with your vikings, or he doesn't and you get the HSMs off. it becomes impossible to do anything if you say "no that doesn't work because he will have X". you have to realize the limitations of your opponent in addition to yourself when answering strategy questions. you are trying to limit larva so that when he reproduces he can no longer remax and you win by outnumbering the second attack as well. if they have 6+ hatches, you can attack his 5th base and kill it easily, i don't see the problem. a zerg cannot be on 5 bases and be completely immune to attack. period. especially on ladder maps. if the zerg is on 5 bases and you are on a ladder map and you don't have an army to attack a base with, the game is already lost and you need to be eliminating zerg expansions more frequently. TvZ is a game of whack-a-mole zerg pops up in a few players terran eliminates some of them, this continues all game. the better the terran is at whacking zerg bases the worse zerg gets in the late game. if you don't even try to kill zerg bases you don't have a right to complain about not being able to beat zerg late game. realistically in a game where terrans late game decision making MATTERS, zerg should have 5 hatches at most. and be mining off of two of them. the natural and main are likely mined out so 3 hatches are often sitting with little to defend them. the HSM's each eliminate a group of larva on the most larva dense hatches that zerg has, cutting his reproduction in half. so what if 20 seconds later a bunch of larva pop, that doesn't mean anything when you have just gotten 20 free seconds to push the 3rd and 4th base ( or 4th and 5th) and eliminate them. either zerg tries to defend the bases and loses his weak army to them and then is in an even WORSE spot, or he has to watch them go down and try to remass to attack your army as it moves back into a defensive position, but this time without brood lords. | ||
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PeanutsNJam
United States175 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On February 18 2012 05:32 PeanutsNJam wrote: This raven stuff sounds nice but it takes god-like multitasking micro as well as a big money investment. Drops better, killing ultra den > killing larva. yeah i'd agree that just straight up eliminating all the tech structures would help vs ultras, but ravens also help in the main fight too since brood lords and infestors just straight up get destroyed by HSM. drops work alot better with bio and ravens with mech. | ||
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HardCorey
United States709 Posts
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PeanutsNJam
United States175 Posts
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KAmaKAsa
Finland210 Posts
On February 18 2012 04:02 Kakoon wrote: @KAmaKAsa hunter seeker missile wont work vs corrupters cause it doesnt do enough damage But pdd is good vs all zerg AA except fungal :D umm HSM does splash and it does like 100 dmg? and corrupters have like 200 so i think its pretty high damage and the idea is to kite with vikings and the corrupters follow and clump up and then you hsm | ||
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HardCorey
United States709 Posts
On February 18 2012 05:52 PeanutsNJam wrote: BC are a good unit. Terran doesn't have bad units. No race has bad units buddy. Every race however does have situational units. Now when a Zerg is on hive tech with corrupter broodlord is it viable to get viking + BC to compliment a marine tank army as a counter to broodlord/infestor/corrupter or is that a waste of money. I mean if I have BCs out a tech switch to Ultras wont be that great obviously. EDIT: Of course assuming you haven't fallen behind incredibly in economy, which seems to be the main reason Terrans lose in the lategame realistically. | ||
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shizna
United Kingdom803 Posts
On February 18 2012 05:54 KAmaKAsa wrote: umm HSM does splash and it does like 100 dmg? and corrupters have like 200 so i think its pretty high damage and the idea is to kite with vikings and the corrupters follow and clump up and then you hsm but if the zerg player isn't awful he'll be wary of getting into 6 range of raven, and if HSM comes along he does a split which is like 234 times easier than marine split vs banelings and the HSM does 100 damage plus about ~30 splash damage to 3 other corruptors. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On February 18 2012 06:11 shizna wrote: but if the zerg player isn't awful he'll be wary of getting into 6 range of raven, and if HSM comes along he does a split which is like 234 times easier than marine split vs banelings and the HSM does 100 damage plus about ~30 splash damage to 3 other corruptors. thats why you aim at the brood lord clump, they can't split in time. and they can't exactly reposition too quickly to avoid in the first place. | ||
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moregamethanSEGA
United States76 Posts
On February 17 2012 04:49 jupiter6 wrote: its funny because if it wasnt for broken vortex mechanic protoss also wouldnt have an answer to bl/infestor yet blizzard doesnt seem to care how stupid strong and easy to use it is This is 1000% the TRUTH. Just got done watching FXO and leenock (GSTL) getting owned by some random scrub with a mothership, 4 colosi, 2 archons and 35 stalkers... the ONLY reason he won was because of Archon toilet on Broods. Last time I check they 'nerfed' that... what a joke blizzard. Seriously this is not Terran bm whinning, I am merely referencing the facts. | ||
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moregamethanSEGA
United States76 Posts
On February 18 2012 06:13 PrinceXizor wrote: thats why you aim at the brood lord clump, they can't split in time. and they can't exactly reposition too quickly to avoid in the first place. i swear on everything that is holy... if ONE MORE PERSON says that 'Ravens are the answer' imma seriously FLIP OUT on ya'll. Try WATCHING people play before theorizing impractical scenarios which will NEVER WORK. The investment into ravens is just too substantal - including the opportunity cost for not making medivacs tanks and vikings - not to mention the insane amount of time and gas required to get just one raven with a HSM... its sucha joke. I beg you, please don't fill peoples' heads with such nonsense. | ||
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moregamethanSEGA
United States76 Posts
On February 18 2012 05:51 HardCorey wrote: I honestly want to try using Yamato cannon as a counter to broodlords. Has anyone tried this? Is this viable even in a theorycrafting sense? While possible, it is extremely impractical. So no. Essentially, a zerg will make 9 corrupters at once, then 9 broods at once... you will never be able to produce the number of BC's necessary in that time (2-3 mins). You would need to at the very least be making 4 BC's/time to make the investment worthwhile, which means you are already dumping 400 gas into building production (not units). And, did I mention that if he catches wind of what are trying to do its pretty much gg, as he can just a-move and laugh while 20 of your supply is being produced and not actually out on map for like 4 minutes. Then when you take into account that at that phase in the lategame the brood/corrupter will most likely be upgraded, while your bc's will not, it just seems silly to me that terran litterally has nothing to spend their gas lategame against zerg. I fully emplore you to try bc rushing (2 bcs total) in close air positions with a marine tank all-in to follow. That is much better use of unit, esp when you force units such as queens and hydras which are terrible vs marine tank in the early-game. I also feel like this ghost nerf will force some terrans to start readopting a sky-terran strat such that it MIGHT be possible to create enough BC's early enough to be able to handle lategame zerg shannanigans. You should ask TLO about that though, as he is the only terran I've ever seen do it successfully. The problem with sky terran is holding your third and fourth bases which leads me to believe it might only be possible on a map like entombed vally or antiga. Hope that answers your question. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On February 18 2012 06:29 moregamethanSEGA wrote: i swear on everything that is holy... if ONE MORE PERSON says that 'Ravens are the answer' imma seriously FLIP OUT on ya'll. Try WATCHING people play before theorizing impractical scenarios which will NEVER WORK. The investment into ravens is just too substantal - including the opportunity cost for not making medivacs tanks and vikings - not to mention the insane amount of time and gas required to get just one raven with a HSM... its sucha joke. I beg you, please don't fill peoples' heads with such nonsense. i've lost to terrans on the korean server using ravens late game in mech vs my Z. thats where i am getting ravens from, it's been done to me and it's very strong and forced me to try to play super safe once a small flock of ravens started coming. only a few players i've dealt with have gone raven, but a couple of them were associated with the prime clan (not team). i dunno ask prime i guess. | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
On February 17 2012 04:49 jupiter6 wrote: its funny because if it wasnt for broken vortex mechanic protoss also wouldnt have an answer to bl/infestor yet blizzard doesnt seem to care how stupid strong and easy to use it is Except that it's pretty damn useless unless you micro it very well. One miss-step and imba EMP disables the whole idea of your army. | ||
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jupiter6
205 Posts
On February 18 2012 06:51 Zheryn wrote: Except that it's pretty damn useless unless you micro it very well. One miss-step and imba EMP disables the whole idea of your army. yes in pvz emp is definately a huge problem ......... | ||
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Powerstrike
50 Posts
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Honeybadger
United States821 Posts
My thoughts are this: Pro terrans will just figure out the "kill timing" of the hive transitions, where zerg is very vulnerable. And Terrans will be fine, win ratio wise. But none of the lower ranked players will be able to do this. Ergo, win ratios stay similar, blizzard changes little/nothing, and us low tier players get screwed yet again by nerfs to units that are mandatory in matchups, yet require great micro to use at all. I'm tired of microing. I want to a-move every once in a while. Personally, I've found mass brood to lose to pure thor/hellion with 3/3. Thors up front, hellions behind roasting the broodlings so the thors can get into range and pound the broodlords. But while that works in diamond/low masters for me, high masters zergs will just neural me to death. The only thing that works WELL for me is pure starvation strategy. MASS planetaries, thors, tanks, turrets, vikings, a few ravens, and hellions. Take half the map and wall off chokes with upgraded planetaries, with tanks, vikings, etc. supporting them. I start out by basically bunker/tank/turret creeping from 2 to 3 bases, and then outwards to my fourth and start walling off with planetaries. I let him break army upon army on me, while hitting a couple places at a time with hellions or thor drops just to snipe tech and/or drones. I become an impenetrable rock, and he eventually ragequits. It's insanely effective, but games are NEVER shorter than 45 minutes to over an hour. On February 18 2012 06:51 Zheryn wrote: Except that it's pretty damn useless unless you micro it very well. One miss-step and imba EMP disables the whole idea of your army. Try splitting your units. It's what we have to do in every matchup with every unit against anything. | ||
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