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On February 18 2012 16:04 Honeybadger wrote:
Personally, I've found mass brood to lose to pure thor/hellion with 3/3. Thors up front, hellions behind roasting the broodlings so the thors can get into range and pound the broodlords. But while that works in diamond/low masters for me, high masters zergs will just neural me to death.
Have like 4-6 tanks and siege them if you see roach or infestor coming. While it will take the siege time to disable the NP infestors, it should be relatively fast. Biggest concern is imo when the BLs start catching up on armor ups to the attack ups of the thors. Like I've said a few times already here, at that time I feel terran should be transitioning into ravens + pfs along with a bit of mech for standing ground army.
Also theoretically ghosts nuking would be a great tool to clear up spine walls, be it for bio drop play or hellion roasting.
(Still a really redicilous change, terran needs the ghost to stand on even footing to the way over the top BL+infestor, just like protoss needs the vortex to do the same. The synergy between those 2 units along with the remax potential of the zerg race is just way to great).
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On February 18 2012 18:44 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 16:04 Honeybadger wrote:
Personally, I've found mass brood to lose to pure thor/hellion with 3/3. Thors up front, hellions behind roasting the broodlings so the thors can get into range and pound the broodlords. But while that works in diamond/low masters for me, high masters zergs will just neural me to death. Have like 4-6 tanks and siege them if you see roach or infestor coming. While it will take the siege time to disable the NP infestors, it should be relatively fast. Biggest concern is imo when the BLs start catching up on armor ups to the attack ups of the thors. Like I've said a few times already here, at that time I feel terran should be transitioning into ravens + pfs along with a bit of mech for standing ground army. Also theoretically ghosts nuking would be a great tool to clear up spine walls, be it for bio drop play or hellion roasting. (Still a really redicilous change, terran needs the ghost to stand on even footing to the way over the top BL+infestor, just like protoss needs the vortex to do the same. The synergy between those 2 units along with the remax potential of the zerg race is just way to great).
Zerg needs the infestor and the broodlord to be able to beat the maxed tank/marine/medivac army. I don't see what the problem is in Terran and Protoss needing to rely on such things like mothership, templar, ghost and viking in these scenarios.
Not to mention that I have yet to see a zerg that remaxes on half the quality of his main army. Zerg needs to trade very supplyefficient (=win the first engagement), that the second wave of "half the cost/strength" units has a chance against the compositions that zerg needed BL+infestor in the first place.
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if seeker missles wernt so shit useless, and actualy forced zergs to split up some stuff a bit more, there wouldnt be a problem dealing with lategame zerg without ghosts. As is, its 100% chanceless without ghosts you will just get molested once there are overe 6-7 broods and a good economy. Even with equal bases to zerg there is not to much you can do. Dropping can help you to some point but really its limited especialy there is a point when there is no comparrision anymore to what terran has to do to win a game and for zerg to lose it.
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On February 17 2012 04:52 ToastieNL wrote:
I don't know, more and more am I thinking it's because about 40-45% of their playerbase plays Zerg and they want to keep them happy and give them a autowin buttong very strong, simple to use and very, very hard to counter unit composition.
I don't know, more and more I am thinking you should stop posting...
BL Infestor is by far not an autowin button, but players start whining instead of figuring out something gainst it. Zerg have spent months figuring out how to deal with protoss deathballs, terran mech and many many early pressure builds/all ins against them.
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I am not a terran but why cant you go Viking + Ghosts(EMP)? Or Viking + Marauders?
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because the terran army doesnt need to win the fight, it needs to win 2 fights. whatever army you make to beat x composition also needs to beat their obvious transition. viking marauder would just rolled by the reload. thats always been the problem. ghosts deal with everything well, which is why they are so good late game but not really early/mid-game. cost for cost, unless you can bank 200 energy they arent that super, but its their versatility that makes them so good late.
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On February 18 2012 23:16 DreamChaser wrote:
I am not a terran but why cant you go Viking + Ghosts(EMP)? Or Viking + Marauders?
Because thats not the way they used to play 
Seriously, the Ghost nerf is too much but still. I play alot with a T friend and i would say we are even or something about 110-100 game for him. A lot of games get to lategame. The way he perfectly "counters" my BL switch is droping. 3-3 marines with 2 medvs deal with every static defense, only problem are infestors.
But with that build you force the zerg to either have a lot of lings for defense (which can still be dealt with good positioning with marines) or to get aggressive.
So how to deal with an agressive BL army? Micro your vikings and raven work wonders! 1-2 PDDs(=ONE raven) will make your vikings to overpower the air (well split so not that many fungals affect you) with a proper ground support of bio you can actually take this army out.
And sure; once the zerg hits a critical mass it is frickin hard to deal with it. But honestly thats like with everything 
Just don't let them get there, drop!! Ts really have the best harassing units. Use them. Thats why i hate playing Taldarim vs Terran. In the lategame it's just really really hard to hold your bases vs good droping terrans.
And what should be an interesting thing to see are defensive nukes vs BL-balls. With some ghosts (like allready mentionend: EMP and snipe can still kill) who can defensivly nuke up to 4-5 times can delay a BL-ball like ages.
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On February 18 2012 23:25 turdburgler wrote:
because the terran army doesnt need to win the fight, it needs to win 2 fights. whatever army you make to beat x composition also needs to beat their obvious transition. viking marauder would just rolled by the reload. thats always been the problem. ghosts deal with everything well, which is why they are so good late game but not really early/mid-game. cost for cost, unless you can bank 200 energy they arent that super, but its their versatility that makes them so good late.
That is somewhat true but please never forget that if you trade well the zerg needs a really good eco to rebuild on pure ling-ultra-infestor. If you allowed the zerg to build up such an eco than its just like they tell those zergies vs P: never let them get there.
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hello!
i have nearly ALWAYS played mech in tvz, and most of the time used vikings instead of ghosts to counter broodlord infestor corrupter, cause i think its a more natural transistion out of mech than making 0/0 ghosts with no medivacs...
The things i do to counter the transistion is:
- start airupgrades early (when 2/2 mech or 3/3 mech is done start it right away) since if he goes ultras i will make use of the upgrades anyway on banshees.
- unsiege your tanks when he attacks with the broodlords alone, keep them sieged and focus fire the ground army if he - attacks with anything but lings.
- have 10-15 scvs in your army to mass repair thors and stuff
- have alot of hellions to kill the broodlings
- fall back to a posistion the zerg can't kill (that pf at the gold with mass repair ?) if his corrupter count is too high,
you don't want to fight battles where your vikings just die cause they are outnumbered heavily, fall back and build up viking count, then retake mapcontrol.
- whenever he goes broodlord infestor corrupter he is gonna lack ground army, counter attacks are very good.
the real problem is the infestors, since they turn the tides of the airbattles costineffeciently, HOWEVER terran has other advantages that he can use against zerg air.
- use thors to focus fire corrupters, or to kill broodlords if he lack air armorupgrades or/and you have alot of thors.
- ravens
- siege up 1 or 2 tanks and focus fire the infestors then unsiege
Also very important: SPREAD THOSE VIKINGS!
Another problem for the terran is the fact that the zerg can make corrupters out of every production structure he has, its like turning all your barrackses into starports whenever you want.
Which means: you need ALOT of air production to simply have enough (i mostly get 3-5 compared to how many bases we both are on and how long into the game it is and have reactors on half of them)
- If the zerg commits to ALOT of air units do massive hellion runbys to kill bases and add more thors and vikings and hellions.
- if the zerg stops making air make banshees and use the vikings for harrass, but try not to lose them.
Obviously this is mostly from a mech point of view, but some of it relates aswell to marine tank since the unit composistions of those 2 become more similar in the lategame if the bio player dosen't go for ghosts.
With marine-tank/bio you mostly wanna:
- throw up bunkers with mass repair to create a defensive posistion that the zerg cannot destroy.
- drop ALOT
- don't stim alot of marines in to try and snipe the broodlords, infestors will kill it so easily, do it with less marines at a time to minimize the effectivity of infestors.
I can also recommend getting ghosts post 1.4.3 since they just kill infestors so well, and gonna 2 shot instead of 3 after patch (i think ?).
TL:DR: (Just alot of hints on how to fight infestor broodlord corrupter without ghosts)
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Another thing that you can do is not let the game get to the late game.....I've been punishing hatch first builds with 2 rax all ins and prolonging the mid game by going banshees and delaying their third plus forcing spores/queeens and just harassing like crazy with drop ships and banshees. You need to abuse terrans strengths which are the early game and mid game.
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On February 18 2012 04:33 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 04:09 Naeroon wrote:On February 18 2012 03:35 PrinceXizor wrote:On February 17 2012 18:31 Eligh wrote:
Raven, pdd and seeker missle is strong against broodlord/ infestor but then it sucks against the ultra tech switch after trading the broodlord army... unless massively changes happened, raven will never be a likely composition for TvZ lategame... also the investment of infrastructure, time and ressources is too high... i will try to decide the game before the lategame, its getting harder an harder the longer the game takes against Z... and believe me guys, that will be not the last nerf to terran... you are going to complain that i'm suggesting this but i mean it seriously. seeker missile works vs ultras, you have have to seeker the larva at hatches before the ultra switch, limiting the number of ultras that can come out to 3 to 6 and all of a sudden ultas stop being a threat to your army period. Just to clarify, are you suggesting all I need to do to win against ultras is fly a raven directly into my opponents base and HSM the larva? i... just.. . . dont even. . . . . .. . . . u____u; No. You need to fly into EVERY base of your opponent, and HSM ALL the larvae at the same time you are killing his army. I am Zerg, and even i think that sounds stupid. Regarding ghosts, it does not really apply to me since my opponents are not good enough to use ghosts to a good effect at the moment, so i will let people who actually encounter them debate that.
Basically we all need to just l2p and be like Flash, but all the zerg should do is macro up like anyone above diamond and 1a.
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On February 18 2012 05:51 HardCorey wrote:
I honestly want to try using Yamato cannon as a counter to broodlords. Has anyone tried this? Is this viable even in a theorycrafting sense?
well bcs support your vikings (they tank alot and do alot of air to air damage), but getting to many bcs isn't really effective, so the yamato is more a punishment for attacking rather then a direct conter.
In any case the first bcs reduce the amount of vikings you need by more then their supply cost, leaving you with some extra supply you can invest elsewhere.
I usual throw out 2 bcs before getting my ravens in hope my opponent has no idea what will come and build more corrupters. Broodlord infestor is slower then mech, so it gives you all the time you want to expand with pfs everywhere on the map and gather the gas, so a raven cloud is pretty easy to get.
Like the zerg players have stated broodlord infestor is really gas heavy, and rebuilding takes alot of time. They also have to invest alot in static to defend their bases as their units are to slow for that. So if you can get extractors or hatches that still have gas go for it, generally the zerg takes bases away from the terran, which means they are unable to defend them if they go deathball. And they are also unable to attack pf bases that are far off the track.
About the imba vortex discussion ... its funny how people said that an 8 supply unit that disables roughly 40 supply of the opponent army and allows their army to be at 2 places at once is bad. (never understood their reasoning)
But vortex isn't really needed to fight broodlord infestor composition. The recall is way more important allowing your army to split and destroy every zerg base, with the zerg being unable to do anything as they will have to stay with their spines and defend one mining base. And if a zerg just mines from one base their remax will be as fast as the toss one.
Of course the vortex is nice to give some time for the recall. But it really isn't a killer. (spores (more hp) on hold posi to block archons from entering allowing the rest of your broodlords to snipe down the ai bugging archons)
The weakness of broodlord infestor are long range air units unless they stay on 3 broodlords, they won't be able to get air control. And toss has an 8-13 range air unit and terran a 9 range one. So they are able to pick of broodlords while infestors will die if they try to kill the units. For a terran destroying attacking broodlord infestors is really no issue, the problem is the switch to ultras as vikings take alot of damage from them (being armored, if they wouldn't be armored on ground they would be way to strong though in tvt)
Ultras even build super fast now, leaving you less time to switch up, since you suddenly need marauders and medivacs again. And while ultras have no chance against sim city, broodlords benefit from it. And ultras also have no problem to take down far of pf bases etc. So this switch really reverts what the terran needs not just one thing, but everything.
Well there are things that work, banshees will have free reign over the ultra switch and they are a huge investment for the zerg (gaswise). And they are also effective at sniping infestors (they need 5 fungals) So useful to have, but also supply inefficient.
Also vikings can go overlord hunting or harass undefended bases (good to know where those are). They also deal good damage, so unless ultras attack them they do well on the ground especially behind barricades. If i lost to much of my ground army and scouted the cavern i usual place 2-3 bunkers before my pfs leaving a 1 field gap. (also placing a scan at the ultra spawn timing). If the ultras come i would make a bunker wall leaving them empty with 1 grid pathways guarded by hellions(build super fast and damn good ultra tanks if spread) (zergling death funnel !). Also use my extra orbitals as part of the wall.
In any case your vikings shouldn't just float around and do nothing either use them to defend or attack with them as the zerg don't want to deal with defense (would make the fast switch lose its advantage). Only risk are infestors and one viking can spot for the others if you don't want to scan.
In general i learned that you shouldn't waste your units that are useless in the current situation or let them just idle around. They prevent another switch which is really good for you. (and marauders vs ultras can be dropped and vikigns vs ultras can drop themself).
The time where i get issues is if the zerg goes 230 supply, the first engagement does alot more damage (the longer the broodlords survive the more damage your ground army gets.) But if you play aggressively if you notice it you can punish the zerg.
Against broodlords infestors just work on your multitasking, since the ai is against you (ai having priority on the broodlings, ai stacking for easier fungal, fungal canceling qued commands if targeted units are out of range letting them attack broodlings again) Toss has it fairly easy with colossus able to deal with broodlings (the splash clearing the front line perfectly). Terran either has hellions or tanks. One able to get fungaled down, the other doing damage to allyed units. Marines work well though behind tanks to be protected against fungal.
But the more different unit types you can control, the better you can deal with zerg lategame. One raven if you don't lose it will be super worth it against corrupters and even against the ultra switch, putting down turrets at an expansion to deny gas or at a ramp to block it, so vikings can do what they want.
Also ghosts are still pretty useful but more in the defense then the offense. And since you save energy now when sniping infestors, you don't need that many anymore. and if the infestors are down you can retreat with the ground army.
Ghost range 10 viking range 9 vs range 9.5 from the broods (not couting that you can attack move broodlings from the distance) and infestor range 10 as well. As most zergs won't keep their broodlords stacked only a few will be able to attack the ghosts. So if you stay behind the split vikings you can easily move in after the first fungal and snipe infestors trying to refungal (or stop the refungal and replace the vikigns with full health ones and repair the damaged ones).
And if the zergs attacks he will have to work himself past the vikings, which means no detection (sniping the overseers with front vikings if they get to close and spores having 6 seconds to burrow) so you can protect your second line of vikings from being fungaled.
Well with the new snipe i will probably use ghosts more often against zerg. But it works without massing them.
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Dont let it get to the lategame. Ever. Problem solved. You might see players like MVP still dominating in the lategame but you sure as hell cant so just avoid it at all costs. You dont have to cheese but if you cant cripple his economy try to allin and if it fails leave the game. If you ever see significant numbers of infestor/BL again its because you stuck around even though you already lost.
But to answer your question remember that ghosts can still neutralize infestors and marines own BLs without any support so if he has no other units you can beat it provided you dont allow him to get any fungals on your marines.
cloak->scan->emp->stim and run close to him->snipe infestors->counter
defensive nukes to buy time and drops are also good against infestor/BL
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On February 19 2012 02:17 secretary bird wrote:
Dont let it get to the lategame. Ever. Problem solved. You might see players like MVP still dominating in the lategame but you sure as hell cant so just avoid it at all costs. You dont have to cheese but if you cant cripple his economy try to allin and if it fails leave the game. If you ever see significant numbers of infestor/BL again its because you stuck around even though you already lost.
But to answer your question remember that ghosts can still neutralize infestors and marines own BLs without any support so if he has no other units you can beat it provided you dont allow him to get any fungals on your marines.
cloak->scan->emp->stim and run close to him->snipe infestors->counter
defensive nukes to buy time and drops are also good against infestor/BL
You also don't see MVP invest into a huge attack or drop timing in those games he dominates in the lategame.
Comparing his "3base no matter what" - openings against various highlevel zergstyles to the "5min trying to do dmg and expand, 10min trying to do damage and start a third CC, 15min trying to win before hive" vs "getting to Hive no matter what" - ladderplay doesn't make a lot of sense.
Neither Zerg, nor Terran players are dumb:
Terrans on the ladder play hyperaggressive because it is "easy" to win against zergs that try to produce as little units as possible.
Zergs on the ladder play nonaggressive because it is "hard" to do damage to a Terran that produces a lot of units no matter what.
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On February 17 2012 11:22 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 11:06 Exstasy wrote:On February 17 2012 11:02 Grobyc wrote:On February 17 2012 10:43 kBeatz wrote:
I'm loling at all the terrans raging about an insignificant change. Go Marine Tank (and when I say Marine i mean like 90+ marines) and get ghosts for the late game. drop everywhere with your trillion marines, set up good early pushes with your tanks, deny bases, and cloak EMP infestors. if you really feel at the late game that you cant beat the broods then make some vikings or BCs. It sounded like you semi knew what you were talking about until you mentioned BCs. wat? They're going to have corrupters if you go BCs dude :o I reckon it's going to have to be: marine/tank in the early/mid game transition into ravens on 3-4 bases getting double upgrades for air, and then bc production because P.D.D stops corrupter shots and upgraded BC's do stupid damage, and will nullify an ultra switch BC is really good if you're already significantly ahead, but otherwise it's pretty awful. BC damage is pathetic against upgraded corruptor, ultralisk or broodlord and yamato takes longer to recharge than it takes a zerg with a decent economy to remax. battlecruiser is like what tier3 should be. not like silly zerg t3 where they can rush it at 15-20 minutes and be rediculously powerful.
You need 5 bases for that or you die to the simplest of pushes or drop play from the terran. Terran vs zerg deathball is simply a matter of you microing your vikings and ghosts better tbh. Although if you do let the zerg get to T3 unscratched you shouldn't win the game imho, it shouldn't be fair for you to 3-base against a 5-base zerg and still win.
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On February 18 2012 22:34 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 18:44 Zarahtra wrote:On February 18 2012 16:04 Honeybadger wrote:
Personally, I've found mass brood to lose to pure thor/hellion with 3/3. Thors up front, hellions behind roasting the broodlings so the thors can get into range and pound the broodlords. But while that works in diamond/low masters for me, high masters zergs will just neural me to death. Have like 4-6 tanks and siege them if you see roach or infestor coming. While it will take the siege time to disable the NP infestors, it should be relatively fast. Biggest concern is imo when the BLs start catching up on armor ups to the attack ups of the thors. Like I've said a few times already here, at that time I feel terran should be transitioning into ravens + pfs along with a bit of mech for standing ground army. Also theoretically ghosts nuking would be a great tool to clear up spine walls, be it for bio drop play or hellion roasting. (Still a really redicilous change, terran needs the ghost to stand on even footing to the way over the top BL+infestor, just like protoss needs the vortex to do the same. The synergy between those 2 units along with the remax potential of the zerg race is just way to great). Zerg needs the infestor and the broodlord to be able to beat the maxed tank/marine/medivac army. I don't see what the problem is in Terran and Protoss needing to rely on such things like mothership, templar, ghost and viking in these scenarios. Not to mention that I have yet to see a zerg that remaxes on half the quality of his main army. Zerg needs to trade very supplyefficient (=win the first engagement), that the second wave of "half the cost/strength" units has a chance against the compositions that zerg needed BL+infestor in the first place.
Like BigJ said, zerg needs to rely on the Broodlord/Infestor mix. If you take out one of them, the army is already half as strong also. Ghosts were nerfed because they were the solution to practically every tier 2 and up zerg unit.
Nicely spread out vikings can deal with broodlords. Ghosts can still deal with infestors. If you don't want to get ghosts anymore since they aren't a panacea for the late game, you can just use siege tanks to deal with infestors. If the zerg decides to go ultralisks, just get marauders.
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You don't that's why you kill them before late gme kicks in.
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Idd, blizzard wants us to all in every game. I tryed to snipe against broodlord today, I killed 2 before I was out of energy and the swarm came..
Mid masters EU
Blizzard needs to hire qxc or terran will die out
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On February 18 2012 22:50 4Servy wrote:
if seeker missles wernt so shit useless, and actualy forced zergs to split up some stuff a bit more, there wouldnt be a problem dealing with lategame zerg without ghosts. As is, its 100% chanceless without ghosts you will just get molested once there are overe 6-7 broods and a good economy. Even with equal bases to zerg there is not to much you can do. Dropping can help you to some point but really its limited especialy there is a point when there is no comparrision anymore to what terran has to do to win a game and for zerg to lose it.
this
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On February 18 2012 01:10 Kryptonite wrote:
Raven/Viking/Ghost, PDD for any Corruptors, Vikings for the Broodlords, Ghosts for the Infestors. Boom roasted.
On February 18 2012 01:23 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 01:10 Kryptonite wrote:
Raven/Viking/Ghost, PDD for any Corruptors, Vikings for the Broodlords, Ghosts for the Infestors. Boom roasted. Is this theoretical Terran on like 8 base gas?
I will be making a strategy guide/post this weekend for how to handle broodlord/corruptor/infestor lategame TvZ. I know the guy that just theorycrafted out the random "raven/viking/ghost" probably does not actually have experience utilizing this or knows how it works exactly...but guess what...I do
Biomech + ghost + raven/viking is how you beat broodlord/corruptor/infestor. Or you can do
Mech + ghost + raven/viking.
I will be posting a strategy guide with pictures + a multitude of replays later this week, i've already made this unit composition work against players like darkforce and lzgamer...so it is legit and not just a theory. More Terrans will catch on soon.
Interestingly enough, I was doing this pre-patch in the last 2-3 weeks to deal with broodlord/corruptor/infestor, the ghost nerf does not change it's effectiveness at all because the ghosts are only used for the EMP with this strategy, NOT to snipe anything usually.
I also utilized mass raven/viking lategame TvZ over a year ago but I sorta forgot about it because of different shifts in how Zergs started to play, but it's now not a luxury but about to become a necessity to deal with lategame TvZ.
The interesting thing is that everyone here on TL/reddit and in the SC community in general does not actually keep up with the top tier metagame. A shining example of this is everyone that for the past weeks keep perpetuating this misconception that mass ghosts could defeat a broodlord/corruptor/deathball pre-patch. It couldn't. Zergs learned how to deal with it by simply morphing even more broodlords whenever they saw mass ghost as the only AA, and they also tech swiched to mass ling / bane / ultra quite often against it with infestors.
People for some reason thought ghosts have unlimited energy, but when there's 20 broodlords/corruptors/infestors vs 20-40 ghosts...there was no way to expend all of the snipe energy before being fungalled, as well as if you were able to, you were out of energy and the zerg remax would kill most of your ghosts.
Anyways, raven usage is necessary in lategame TvZ now to deal with brood/corruptor/infestor.
+ Show Spoiler +The raven could use some changes/get some help from blizzard of course to make it more viable balance-wise, such as a speed/acceleration increase (like the science vessel has) as well as changing HSM to make it more like irradiate in terms of getting 2 per raven at 200 energy, and removing the raven energy upgrade while toning down the HSM accordingly, as well as cost decreases on the upgrades, but that is more balance design talk then actual unit usage discussion.
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This patch will really weed out the crappy terrans from the good ones. Previously even the crappy terrans could easily transition into ghosts and use the get out of jail free card(Snipe) to destroy every tier2+ unit zerg has easily.
Now terrans will have to rely on drops, and other unit compisitions to deal with it or even scan a little more to figure out when transitions are happening. Much like many others have posted proper viking transitions with upgrades or the odd ravens can still do wonders vs this but I would say the hardest thing to deal with in the late game is 2 medivac drops.
Hell the other day I played vs a decend masters terran and he went mass ghosts for kicks in the late game, 3-3 ghosts with 7+ medivacs, cloak, was still beast to deal with even with snipe nurfed once he got the numbers up.
Terran will find many ways to deal with this it will just take time, not to mention i'm sure pitty wagon will not stop of any terrans considering they have been on the top win% consitently since release even with the constant nurfs.
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EPT
