On February 24 2012 04:42 DarKFoRcE wrote: If you are able to make the transition, mass raven with some ghosts/vikings is really strong. its effectiveness might depend on the map tho.
Tried it multible times, but you will die so insanely hard to 5/6 ultras + lings/bling and you gota preprepare that shit bc you wont have ghosts to deal with broods now. Especialy vs zergs like stephano (who mixes it up) and zergs I dont really know that well its really hard to read what they will be going for. You have to prepare for either ultra or brood without knowing what they are doing. And you have to make the counter to either ultras or bl before zerg even made the choice themselfs. Vs players like yourself/slivko/nerchio who basicly always go for brood/infestor its doable but vs zergs who mix it up its just a freaking nightmare.
Best option is just to add 50000000000000000k raxes and mass bio + tank/thor support and then add vikings wich you can make reactionary and try to outmanouver him aka mma style.
On February 17 2012 04:51 benthekid wrote: Vikings and bc's with ravens for pdd and seeker and battlecruisers for yamato. That way it will force them to continue with Corruptor broodlord or lose. If they switch to ultras just make Banshees.
Ultra actually counters this because zerg can counter attack while making corruptors. Zerg will deal more damage and stabilize faster.
On February 17 2012 04:46 Hollis wrote: Drop his expos, drop as many of them as you can, as fast as you can. Don't stop for any reason!
This.. Im a top diamond zerg player. Like Hollis write , make drops , all the game , and never stop . If you let zerg chill and macro you lose already. Use scans , scout when he switch to BL , if you play greedy ( never scan etc ) you can miss Bl switch and then you lose because you dont have x2 starport makings vikings , try to split them in some groups .. you cant be catch by one fungal because you lose then. Even if ghoust got nerf now , build then and make nukes. Build PF in every map shoke , its really help vs zerg counter attack or lings runby.
And one more thing , make drops :D , even if zerg player catch one or two , its really hard to deal in late game , you cant be everywere
On February 17 2012 04:51 benthekid wrote: Vikings and bc's with ravens for pdd and seeker and battlecruisers for yamato. That way it will force them to continue with Corruptor broodlord or lose. If they switch to ultras just make Banshees.
Ultra actually counters this because zerg can counter attack while making corruptors. Zerg will deal more damage and stabilize faster.
This implies that Zerg went greater spire lost a bl/ infestor army, then made ultras and corruptors, I'm sorry but that just doesn't make any sense. After I kill a bl infestor army I'm counter attacking for the win
On February 17 2012 04:51 benthekid wrote: Vikings and bc's with ravens for pdd and seeker and battlecruisers for yamato. That way it will force them to continue with Corruptor broodlord or lose. If they switch to ultras just make Banshees.
Ultra actually counters this because zerg can counter attack while making corruptors. Zerg will deal more damage and stabilize faster.
This implies that Zerg went greater spire lost a bl/ infestor army, then made ultras and corruptors, I'm sorry but that just doesn't make any sense. After I kill a bl infestor army I'm counter attacking for the win
After you kill a BL Infestor army, your main army will be in tatters and waiting to remax and unable to move out against linginfestor.
The only thing you can and should be doing aggressively is multidropping. There's rarely an opportunity for a direct counterattack.
i for one lost so far every game when i faced many ravens late-game accompanied by whatever fighting units, even from 2-3 bases advantage and double evo + double spire upgds
On February 17 2012 04:49 jupiter6 wrote: its funny because if it wasnt for broken vortex mechanic protoss also wouldnt have an answer to bl/infestor yet blizzard doesnt seem to care how stupid strong and easy to use it is
its REALLY not all that bad.... if you want to look at it from the zergs point of view, a early marine tank medivac push is just as stupid to deal with early/mid game for zerg just like infestor/BL is stupid to deal with for terran late game.
the problem is that both terran AND protoss are so very use to engaging zerg armies directly. early-mid game they have no problem just engaging (1Aing most of the time if ur toss) a zerg army. so when late game hits and they try to engage a infestor/BL army directly they act all surprised.... well guess what? that is not how you deal with the "zerg deathball". the zerg deathball hits late game and how you deal with it is no diffrent from how u deal with other deathballs.
YOU DONT ENGAGE DIRECTLY. what you have to do is abuse how immobile BLs and infestors are. drop and just pick apart the zerg. you have no reason to atk the army directly.... especially when terran is a very turtle heavy race and zerg wont be able to break them easily even with a BL infestor comp.
On February 17 2012 04:51 benthekid wrote: Vikings and bc's with ravens for pdd and seeker and battlecruisers for yamato. That way it will force them to continue with Corruptor broodlord or lose. If they switch to ultras just make Banshees.
Ultra actually counters this because zerg can counter attack while making corruptors. Zerg will deal more damage and stabilize faster.
This implies that Zerg went greater spire lost a bl/ infestor army, then made ultras and corruptors, I'm sorry but that just doesn't make any sense. After I kill a bl infestor army I'm counter attacking for the win
After you kill a BL Infestor army, your main army will be in tatters and waiting to remax and unable to move out against linginfestor.
The only thing you can and should be doing aggressively is multidropping. There's rarely an opportunity for a direct counterattack.
Yeah, this. Directly attacking with Mech usually fails for me, I find it's better to just build up a sick sim-city, maybe include extra defensive PFs if it's a long game too and hunker down for the long haul, try to split the map if possible and keep dropping when you can. Ultra/Ling can be a strong transition army but it fails when the Zerg has to actually attack into your defenses if you have them set up well.
Most of my TvZ games with mech turn out to be absurdly long though and tend to end quite anticlimactically when the Zerg has simply starved out his half of the map trying to break my defenses.
On February 17 2012 04:51 benthekid wrote: Vikings and bc's with ravens for pdd and seeker and battlecruisers for yamato. That way it will force them to continue with Corruptor broodlord or lose. If they switch to ultras just make Banshees.
Ultra actually counters this because zerg can counter attack while making corruptors. Zerg will deal more damage and stabilize faster.
This implies that Zerg went greater spire lost a bl/ infestor army, then made ultras and corruptors, I'm sorry but that just doesn't make any sense. After I kill a bl infestor army I'm counter attacking for the win
After you kill a BL Infestor army, your main army will be in tatters and waiting to remax and unable to move out against linginfestor.
The only thing you can and should be doing aggressively is multidropping. There's rarely an opportunity for a direct counterattack.
It's never failed before, I'd rather have a small army and push with all of it than drop bases that probably have spines at them already
On February 17 2012 04:51 benthekid wrote: Vikings and bc's with ravens for pdd and seeker and battlecruisers for yamato. That way it will force them to continue with Corruptor broodlord or lose. If they switch to ultras just make Banshees.
Ultra actually counters this because zerg can counter attack while making corruptors. Zerg will deal more damage and stabilize faster.
This implies that Zerg went greater spire lost a bl/ infestor army, then made ultras and corruptors, I'm sorry but that just doesn't make any sense. After I kill a bl infestor army I'm counter attacking for the win
The phrase "if they switch to ultras, just make banshees" most certainly does not imply an impending counter-attack already has zerg checkmated (in which case transitions would irrelevant). Also, zerg doesn't have to wait for the whole army to die for a tech switch. Some zerg start an ultra cavern with the greater spire, and never get more broodlords than needed to set up a deadly tech switch to ultras.
Decided to goof around a big with Seeker in TvZ. It's not very good against Broodlords/Corrupters . If you even slightly spread your Bl's only 3 maybe 4 will take damage and only the first one takes enough damage to justify the 125 Energy spend. The other few that actually get hit only take max 50 damage. So you need an insane amount of Raven and not just 3-5 to make it work consistently since it takes alot of time for a Raven to get enough Energy back to fire another Seeker Missile.
I think if you want to go mech for straight up fighting broodlord infestor you need more thors than tanks, vikings with a good spread, as few as 2-3 ghosts for emp, with lots of upgrades on mech and air attack. Infestors clump up pretty bad when used with broodlords and a few emps makes the vikings with thor support really strong against the bls.
But the best way to deal with this composition was already said which is drop everywhere or use banshees. Drop hellions if you dont have marines, or drop ghosts with nukes. You dont have to do ALL of these things just 1 or 2 really prevents the zerg from slow pushing you. The zerg lategame army is slower than you.
I actually have quite a lot of fun with my ghost at the moment. I don't play terran a lot, but sniping is super efficient against Infestor and queen.
Actually, I have great result with early ghost against most zerg.
Ghost drop are hilarious.
Fill two medivac with 3-4 ghost and some marine. Drop, snipe the queen... if he defend with infestor, snipe them. And 3-4 ghost with some marine with medivac are doing absolutly fantastic against zergling compared to only marine. They have the same DPS than stimed marine against light armor (and more with upgrades), but have 100 hp... they are WAY harder to kill than marine since they have more HP, don't need to stim and kill lings as fast or faster than stimed marine. They have more range too, so it's easier to get drones kill while dropping with them.
Maybe it's because my opponents are super bad... but I have nice result with this.
On February 17 2012 11:25 Ashakyre wrote: All this advice is good, but I wanted to add my own two cents as well. I'm a newly promoted Platinum Zerg, so I feel my perspective 100% unbiased. You would be well served to heed my words of wisdom.
I would certainly agree that there are challenges in a late-game Zerg situation, and it's critical to use every tool at one's disposal to make things easier. What you need to remember is that Marines were never intended to have a long life-span in combat, hence Stim. When facing mass Brood Lords and infestors, you should focus on Marine production and attempt to overrun the Brood Lords in small, tactical attacks. Never send all your Marines at once, and try to focus on all the Brood Lords equally. This way you're not risking too many marines and, by attacking multiple Brood Lords at once, your chances that at least one of them will go down increase dramatically. Using small numbers of Marines to attack Brood Lords in the way should guarantee there are never more than 2 or 3 marines per Brood Lord.
At this point in the game you should have a healthy bank of minerals so I recommend shifting the use of your M.U.L.E.S from an economic to a tactical role. Remember, you'll be using small numbers of Marines to take out Brood Lords, so speed is of the essence. Double or triple stim your Marines for maximum speed and engage the Brood Lords, dropping Mules to absorb broodling damage, and, to increase their longevity, repair one another as well.
You'll need all of your Medevacs for the final stand at your base, so I highly advise against drops during this phase of the game, or during any phase for that matter. Clump up your Marines in front of your wall to maximize firepower, and focus down broodlings. Brood Lords have a preset kill limit, after which they morph into overlords, so all you really need to do is wait it out. Don't worry, it won't last very long.
These tactics are difficult to execute and it will take you at least 50-60 games to master them. Play through the pain. When you reach the end of this process I promise you will have changed the results of this match-up favorably.
If you are having difficulty, there is one final piece of advice I have for you. To be honest, I'm surprised no one mentioned it earlier. I'm not sure I should even discuss it openly, so I'm putting it into spoilers. + Show Spoiler +
When the going gets very difficult, and you have no other options, there is one more unit in the Terran arsenal which has undeniable potential to alter the matchup: the Super Ghost. You need to be extremely careful how you use this unit. It costs no resources, takes up no supply, and guarantees victory. The Super Ghost will make the Zerg army disappear from your screen instantly. To access the Super Ghost, take a deep breath, and press F10 and then press N. The secret is to press it really fast, otherwise it won't work. The Zerg army will disappear from your screen, and a favorable result will have been achieved. It might take 20 or 30 tries to master this technique, and again, you have to play through the pain, but I guarantee a favorable result.
This advice is guaranteed to be effective. I hope you follow it the next time we meet on ladder.
I would just like to chime in here as well and tell everyone how legit this guy is. I am a Gold Protoss player (but Diamond 86 for 3v3 random). I've been playing as terran for the past couple of hours following this guy's advice against my friend who is a Master Zerg. He usually beats me one-handed and with 50% handicap, but we went about 50-50 today while he was actually trying his best (or so he claimed). It was a pretty amazing feeling. Triple stim is a move that shames even MVP_Genius. My friend was absolutely shocked and asked how the hell I got so much better in a day, and I told him:
"I don't usually bother with strategy advices...but when I do, I listen to Ashakyre from Teamliquid."
1. It's super hard to get them in time. Yes, if you have 10 ravens you will win the air war. How do you get 10 ravens? When do you start building them? What if the Z sees that you have 4 ravens and then just makes ultras instead?
2. PDD sucks. People throw around stories, but the math doesn't lie. Vs Vikings (high dps low hp) a PDD blocks a whopping 560 damage. This is good. Vs Corruptors (low dps high hp) a PDD only blocks 280 damage. Real talk: would you pay 2 food + 200 gas for a unit that blocks 280 damage 45s AFTER it's been created? It takes 3 MINUTES, after 1 PDD to make another PDD. Everything about this screams unviable. NOTE: 1 corruptor is 200 HP 150 gas 2 food 2 armor, and does damage.
Have any top players, other than meching players, experimented with mass Thor? Like 10+ thor to turtle with?
Thor do an even job with BL and ultras, and come from production buildings you already have, with upgrades you have been doing, can react to ultras, have range, and ignore the air war vs corruptors.
Seems like, with proper simcity, 10 Thors should be viable.
On February 24 2012 10:23 architecture wrote: Ravens suck. This is fact.
1. It's super hard to get them in time. Yes, if you have 10 ravens you will win the air war. How do you get 10 ravens? When do you start building them? What if the Z sees that you have 4 ravens and then just makes ultras instead?
2. PDD sucks. People throw around stories, but the math doesn't lie. Vs Vikings (high dps low hp) a PDD blocks a whopping 560 damage. This is good. Vs Corruptors (low dps high hp) a PDD only blocks 280 damage. Real talk: would you pay 2 food + 200 gas for a unit that blocks 280 damage 45s AFTER it's been created? It takes 3 MINUTES, after 1 PDD to make another PDD. Everything about this screams unviable. NOTE: 1 corruptor is 200 HP 150 gas 2 food 2 armor, and does damage.
3. HSM is worse.
Autoturrets are actually pretty good(as long as your opponent's units are unupgraded). Sadly, in reality that means they don't work out well.
EPT
