On February 24 2012 10:29 Let it Raine wrote: HSM is good vs broods
every topic i click is kids in bronze league that dont even make the units they're qqing about
Its good vs broods if you dont get fungaled first, or instantly sniped by mutas, sure if the zerg has no idea how to deal with ravens and makes blords without infestors HSM works, but in that case you dont need HSM in the first place, you can just use vikings...
I was watching kawaiirice try to use mass ravens against a zerg. He destroyed the zergs ling bling ultra push, but then they tech switched to brood lords, and he used 6 or 7 HSM and only killed 1 broodlord because the zerg split them up so there was no splash damage. Zergs can split their broods to negate splash in the same way terrans split their tanks, so HSM doesn't work against broods unless you get really lucky.
Drops drops drops is the best answer for infestor BL, and even then, if the zerg is good, you'll probably still lose. If they have 3 spines and an infestor in each of their bases, you need 2 medivacs of marines to kill it, and they can run lings back to defend it anyway while you can't touch their main army.
Ideally. you need cloaked ghosts to snipe/emp a majority of the infestors. Since ghosts are an anti protoss/infestor unit now, you have to treat it like one and get 5-6 ghosts for sniping broods, and marine tank viking for everything else.
well for the mech way... (general rule after a fight repair everything even if you have to drop mules to do so) air attack upgrades really early (when hive starts at best), helps alot to not need a crapton of vikings. Also double starports with reactors should be there to get enough vikings. You don't really need alot of vikigns to beat most zergs, their corrupter count will mostly never go over 10 and if you have air control there is plenty you can do. Just make sure your vikings are split and keep the front row of vikings 1-2 range in front of tanks and its good to have tanks in groups of 2 there to snipe infestors every infestor that dies with energy is a win (so targetfire yay). a small Hellion group behind those tanks to roast broodlings/lings that just a move. If you gained air control and the infestors are mostly out of energy (reproduce vikings first but not to many just enough so you retain air control) The zerg has to pull back and you can chase down the broodlords but keep the vikings spread and pull back before any rebuilding corruptors could get you. I personally flavor my air army with a few banshees and a raven if there are almost corruptors, they need almost 5 perfectly chained fungals. So a good way to snipe the infestors when the zerg is attacking you. (few vikings attacking with them and there you have a panic mode zerg on full retreat)
If the zerg makes the mistake of going broodlords infestors only with no backup, you are free to put pfs at every base to mine the gas. In preparation for the lategame you really want +2 armor on your buildings, so mutas and ling switches do no real damage. (building range is also nice)
While broodlord infestor shouldn't be an issue to defend with mech. The techswitch might get problematic. Its important to replace your army right or you will hit the supply cap. First of all if the broodlords are down you have all the time you want to get back your viking army, so you don't need more then a few. So you have to check your ground army what is lost. If your hellions are mostly gone, replace them, they roast lings and can avoid ultras or can conter if the opponent goes air again. (fungal is a problem but you have viking spotters) Also while fighting the broodlord army once you know a few vikings will live pull back your siege tanks the more survive the better, no need to let the zerg get a few free kills. The biggest enemy of melee units are buildings. If you got extra orbitals, they do really good at the frontline while you rebuild, bunkers are okay too since you can salvage them, other then that i sometimes get raks to walloff (landed vikings to well if the zerg can't hit them)(1 grid free space to mess up the ai and well hellions in that space do nice things with lings.) And the zerg will have one aim with their tech switch, your production if they go for the bases they just leave you tons of time to prepare again and lose alot of units against the pfs. (bunkers to prevent ultras from attacking) The tech switches are cost inefficient for the zerg. so they have to do something. That makes defending pretty easy unless the map is super open and you have no space for all the factories, because of tiny mains. But if you encounter ultras, just pull back to a position where you can wallof, if they go for your bases you can cut of their army. And if you still have banshees, go for it.
I am currently testing around which unit i like most against infestors. The cloaked banshee surely has potential but is pretty supply inefficient. But its fun if there is no detection for the zerg and you fly in 4 on top of the infestors (distraction with hellions) and one shot infestor after infestor. But after the ghost "nerf" ghosts got pretty good against the zerg deathball.
My real issue is zerg though, so far i have not encountered a zerg that went up to 220 supply or one that tried to keep enough air control to stop banshees or low viking numbers. Or one using transfuse to support their t3 units. (they provide anti air as well). There is still alot potential for the zerg deathball to become even stronger. And terran is pretty close to the maximum they can do (still some things but not as much as zerg). (nuke drops still own against the zerg deathball)
On antiga and taldarim, i would highly encourage mass marines though if they try something like broodlord infestor on these maps. The map is just to big and open for that and the zerg will never go above 3 bases. As soon as the broodlords are unguarded marines will run under them before there are enough broodlings to do damage. (needs alot of scanning to get the right moment) Mech on these maps doesn't work to well. As you can stop ultralisks at your natural first (so you will get contained on 3 bases with mech)
But good luck with experimenting with mech, there are alot of combinations really. But the seeker missile might not be part something to experiment to much with. (someone calling the sm hsm missed the nerf i guess) Seeker Missile range 6 sounds good even with fungal you can cast seeker against corruptors. Neural range 7, now that sounds not to good, can't move and outranged by a mind controlling spell. So solo fly ins are a bit risky and in battle they should get fungaled along vikings. If you have gas and no minerals ravens are nice to get though. But they are not a stable answer to broodlords (transfuse and splitting cough). But they are better then having 2k gas on the bank and no idea what to do with it.
On February 17 2012 04:49 jupiter6 wrote: its funny because if it wasnt for broken vortex mechanic protoss also wouldnt have an answer to bl/infestor yet blizzard doesnt seem to care how stupid strong and easy to use it is
its REALLY not all that bad.... if you want to look at it from the zergs point of view, a early marine tank medivac push is just as stupid to deal with early/mid game for zerg just like infestor/BL is stupid to deal with for terran late game.
the problem is that both terran AND protoss are so very use to engaging zerg armies directly. early-mid game they have no problem just engaging (1Aing most of the time if ur toss) a zerg army. so when late game hits and they try to engage a infestor/BL army directly they act all surprised.... well guess what? that is not how you deal with the "zerg deathball". the zerg deathball hits late game and how you deal with it is no diffrent from how u deal with other deathballs.
YOU DONT ENGAGE DIRECTLY. what you have to do is abuse how immobile BLs and infestors are. drop and just pick apart the zerg. you have no reason to atk the army directly.... especially when terran is a very turtle heavy race and zerg wont be able to break them easily even with a BL infestor comp.
I can't believe what you just wrote...
Tank + rine vs ling bling muta is one of the most balanced fights in this game. On the other hand broodlord + infestors vs anything from terran, is really not that balanced. I want to refer to the time BEFORE terrans started using ghosts: David Kim himself said that they were looking into broodlord + infestor. Then terrans started using ghosts and David Kim's problem was solved. Guess what happened after the ghost nerf? The problem came back.
You can drop as much as you want, his deathball WILL hit your production facilities, and then what???
You say that terran is a very turtle heavy race. Guess what DESTROYS turtling? Yes, broodlord + infestor. You can make as many planetaries, tanks or some other defences as you want, the broodlords will destroy it.
If you can watch DRG vs Gumiho from the GSL last night. Gumiho never relied on ghosts, and he rolled DRG in the first 2 games from insane multitasking and excellent drop play. I think it is weird how few drops I see once I get BL. It is so slow and drops can abuse this. Snipe tech first while dropping late game, not drones.
On February 17 2012 04:49 jupiter6 wrote: its funny because if it wasnt for broken vortex mechanic protoss also wouldnt have an answer to bl/infestor yet blizzard doesnt seem to care how stupid strong and easy to use it is
its REALLY not all that bad.... if you want to look at it from the zergs point of view, a early marine tank medivac push is just as stupid to deal with early/mid game for zerg just like infestor/BL is stupid to deal with for terran late game.
the problem is that both terran AND protoss are so very use to engaging zerg armies directly. early-mid game they have no problem just engaging (1Aing most of the time if ur toss) a zerg army. so when late game hits and they try to engage a infestor/BL army directly they act all surprised.... well guess what? that is not how you deal with the "zerg deathball". the zerg deathball hits late game and how you deal with it is no diffrent from how u deal with other deathballs.
YOU DONT ENGAGE DIRECTLY. what you have to do is abuse how immobile BLs and infestors are. drop and just pick apart the zerg. you have no reason to atk the army directly.... especially when terran is a very turtle heavy race and zerg wont be able to break them easily even with a BL infestor comp.
I can't believe what you just wrote...
Tank + rine vs ling bling muta is one of the most balanced fights in this game. On the other hand broodlord + infestors vs anything from terran, is really not that balanced. I want to refer to the time BEFORE terrans started using ghosts: David Kim himself said that they were looking into broodlord + infestor. Then terrans started using ghosts and David Kim's problem was solved. Guess what happened after the ghost nerf? The problem came back.
You can drop as much as you want, his deathball WILL hit your production facilities, and then what???
You say that terran is a very turtle heavy race. Guess what DESTROYS turtling? Yes, broodlord + infestor. You can make as many planetaries, tanks or some other defences as you want, the broodlords will destroy it.
The problem is that Snipe obliterated both Brood Lords and Ultras. Ghosts are still viable. Use nukes to slow down the Infestor Broodlord army while you drop all his bases (at once). A Ling/Bling/Muta army doesn't directly engage Marine/Tank unless they can completely overwhelm their opponent. They usually wait until the tanks (Brood Lords) are out of position and then attack. Or they chip away at the army while doing a Ling-Run-By. You can also set up flanks. Snipe will still work vs Brood Lords (you just have to click more), they just won't be able to also snipe away the Ultras used to remax after the Brood Lords are all gone. Gumiho (in my opinion) has the best TvZ at the moment. Watch how effective his drops are, and tell me that a Brood Lord army is going to defend that. Nope.
The BL/Infestor will hit you? Do you know how much you can delay a push with defensive nukes? A long/LONG time as long as you have enough nukes. Also have you guys tried magic boxing the broodlords with vikings? I have never seen a Terran do this vs me, they clump their Vikings up so that 1-2 fungals catch them all and then they just melt to chain fungals.
If you find the Zergs Spire, scan it, when it is becoming a greater spire, attack the zerg with multiple drops and a full frontal attack. (ESPECIALLY if they have Corruptors sitting around. Protoss used to complain that the Infestor was a Counter-All unit. And they were right, it makes no sense to be able to make 1 unit late game and win. Ghosts can cloak, Nuke, EMP Infestors, and you want them to be able to Snipe a Brood Lord army, and then have enough energy to Snipe an Ultra army?
To be honest, I don't like the new patch (as a Zerg at all). I think the Phoenix buff is too much (+1 range was enough) and I don't like how Snipe is useless against non Psionic now. But there needed to be a Snipe change. I think doing 10-20 less to massive would have been good, or even just making Snipe cost more energy. That way I can't lose 2 maxxed out T3 armies to a handful of ghosts.
But at the same time, I think its still too early to debate how bad this nerf is. I think there are still plently of options yet to be explored. Raven (seeker missle) BC (yamato cannon). You never see these things late game vs Zerg, even though they are extremely powerfull. Its weird that Terran have the most units available to them, yet they never seem to make them. :-/
I've practiced snipe scroll trick with ghosts in practice, and I still find them very viable against Broodlords, so I wouldn't deviate from Ghosts, even with the prescence of Broodlords. Plus, you'll still need Ghosts for the Infestors, since a Zerg isn't going to stop Infestors just because they have BL's on the field, so you're killing two birds with one stone with Ghosts. Plus, they share bio upgrades, so you don't have to worry about the same transition you'd have with mech/air play.
On February 24 2012 14:37 lost_artz wrote: Vikings and 5+ Ravens. The more ravens you have the better.
This replay shows how to deal w/ Bloodlord,Corrupter with Mass ravens and frankly it's a fun one to watch and you can tell Nestea doesn't have an idea of what to do vs. it.
That was some of the worst playing I've seen nestea do ever...
For those interested:
1) Nestea goes in with broods...and nothing else. Clumped all together. They attack and do pretty good damage regardless. Bratok seeker missles 4(?) times and kills 2-3 brood lords. 2) Then comes in corrupts to help. still just brood lords a-moving and corruptors a-moving after. 3) like 12-16 roaches come in after everything else is dead.
Mass mech (thor, some tank) transition makes the most sense.
Even Idra in his most recent interview brought it up.
It's not mech in isolation in the open - it's mech in the same way ghost was used - to turtle behind simcity. The rest of your army is still marine+meds to drop. You don't need ghost. Ghost is not an efficient use of resources against Z now. Sniping infestors is not a reasonable use of resources, theres so much wrong with it, that could be in its own post. The fact is that ghost was primarily used to trade against T3, and sniping/EMPing infestors was a bonus, not the other way around.
Anyways, mass thor should be able to trade evenly against Ultra/BL. Obviously the more thor you get, the more immobile you are. And thor will still be shit in the open, so you will be mass dropping while camping simcity. So basically just trade the money you used to spend on ghost, with Thor.
Machine played against Avilo today and lost to raven/mech Avilo even made ghosts to emp infestors
Machine dropped like crazy, made nyduses non-stop, switched from broodlords to ultras and back, made more infestors, and did everything he could but he couldn't break avilo no matter what he tried, it was crazy
Won't the Thors just be owned by BLs? The range is quite much the same. If the BLs are spread, the Thor's splash is worthless. Not even talking about the low damage the Thors will do against the armored BLs. If you happen to have sieged tanks, they will fire at the Broodlings even damaging your Thors further. The only counter is Vikings, that get fungaled or are worthless after the Techswitch to Ultras.
I know something that helped on smaller maps like Scrap Station, but not as well on open/large maps: Offensive Planetary Fortresses. You move your 200 supply army to the edge of the creep, siege up, make PFs, and turrets. On smaller maps, you can force Ultras to engage you near 1-2 PFs, which is rough going vs Zerg. If you can have a 200 supply Terran army + Planetary Fortressess, you can at least hold a position. Siege tanks next to PF make it so infestors can't just snipe your vikings as long as you keep your vikings behind the PFs. Turrets are helpful too if Zerg is going the terrifying all air end game with dozens of corrupters.
Now if you are on bigger maps, you can't create your own choke points with PFs, and static defense means less on biggermaps because they can just engage you someplace else.
For those thinking Offensive Planetary Fortress is crazy: Remember Protoss always makes tons of cannons when going over 200 supply. It is a way to bring more attack power to the battlefield even if it is stationary.
But on Large/Open maps, I have no idea what to do. There is no way to punish a greedy zerg as Terran who is out to play a macro/defensive game. Lately it frustrates me so much, I just 4 rax all in with marine+SCV.
Vikings are bettar than corruptors because of the 3 range difference, and you can spread vikings to not get fungaled in an engagement. also, infestors can pretty easily get emp'ed by spread ghosts (again to avoid getting fungaledd). This is very similar to ZvP lategame where zerg HAS to spread blord infestor to avoid getting stormed/vortexed. Not imba at all, just a game mechanic.
On February 17 2012 05:20 salehonasi wrote: I add in the Raven and 5 banshees as a way to deal with the infestors. Infestors can wreck your thor ball by NP'ing your front line of thors. The other Thors have trouble moving forward to kill the infestors, losing a significant portion of the ball. To counter this, I have the raven and banshees. The raven, which I use midgame with banshee/hellions for map control and creep denial, immediately throws down PDD(s) against the corruptors, shutting down small corruptor numbers for a good period of time. 5 Banshees 1shots an infestor, regardless of upgrades. Quickly focus down the infestors while PDD keeps you safe; if they use fungal to take out the banshees, its much less energy available to NP, and it doesn't kill them immediately. If they have enough corruptors to burn through the PDD fast enough to eliminate the banshees before they do their damage, they have a large, and largely useless, portion of their army as corruptors.
Are there a reason you dont use ghost instead of banshees? I mean, you could EMP and snipe his infestors if they are close enough to NP, then nuke to push his army back. And since his BL are slow as hell, the infestors will be gone sooner. and thors are actually faster than BL. So you will catch up. If he turns around, repeat. I even think you should remove the raven and scan your way forward to nullify corrupters. You should be able to push the zerg all the way back to his base, and make the PF/Turret wall, op to his expansion, and set up a safe spot, so you can attack the opposite place of where his army is, with a part of your force. Especially because the PF helps your army so much, that you can split a part of your army to take out poor defended places. or use the nukes.
Even though they are nerfed in a way that ghost's snipe is only really useful against spellcasters, their other ablites are really good for harrass and control. But i feel that it is always a good idea to have a few vikings just have them behind the army, so when the zerg pulls back, you can have some free shots on the BL's.
I will say that I am only gold league player since I do not play much (but I watch a lot), and therefore just talking theory. So if I am missing something, please tell. It would be nice to know.
if your opponent is going for infestor broodlord you simply need ghosts for emp. most zergs don't have overseers with their army and cloaked ghosts are rly hard to deal with.
as for the mass drops, ofc you can't drop marines when you go mech, but when going mech you are gas starved anyway so you just make helions out of 1-2 reactor facts. take a group of 5-6 blueflame helions and run them into your opponents mineral line ( ignore spines). you can afford to loose those helions to spines, because you will kill his whole mineral line anyway. with helion harass you should be able to weaken zergs economy enough to hit a timing before broods.
before broods hit zerg simply doesn't have an army to compete with terran mech, so its only fair that terrans now cannot snipe your whole t3 army in a few seconds.
Since Terran now can't counter it and Protoss relies on the zerg messing up and letting at least half his broodlords fall into a lucky vortex of a unit which is gonna be removed in HoTS, infestors/bL/corruptors will have to be fixed at some point.
As Zerg can techswitch that fast, Terran just needs a unit or atleast a techpath that performs well against everything. And no, I don't mean a unit that beats everything, just can fight everything decently. Terran is just too slow at changing tech. (Imo that is also a part of the problem in TvP, but for that we have other threads.)
On February 24 2012 18:43 xs101 wrote: Vikings are bettar than corruptors because of the 3 range difference, and you can spread vikings to not get fungaled in an engagement. also, infestors can pretty easily get emp'ed by spread ghosts (again to avoid getting fungaledd). This is very similar to ZvP lategame where zerg HAS to spread blord infestor to avoid getting stormed/vortexed. Not imba at all, just a game mechanic.
Viking is a losing battle. A few here and there to catch low corruptor count is OK. But when Z commits to corruptor, then its extremely foolish to try to outviking him.
On February 24 2012 18:26 iopq wrote: Machine played against Avilo today and lost to raven/mech Avilo even made ghosts to emp infestors
Machine dropped like crazy, made nyduses non-stop, switched from broodlords to ultras and back, made more infestors, and did everything he could but he couldn't break avilo no matter what he tried, it was crazy
1. Shakuras. This map is like metalopolis, where there's one center position for T to hold. This is extremely good for T, since one position covers all ground routes to expos. This is an unrealistic expectation for most maps. 2. Not to say that a different map couldn't have proper simcity to assist. Regardless, the performance of ravens looked extremely lackluster. 3. I suspect Machine had way too many drones, his army always looked really small. Like at one point T has easily 40 food into raven+viking. Zerg could literally have 10 ultras + 140! zerglings in one remax and plow the siege line. Instead he opted to make like 10 ultras and send them in by themselves with a handful of remaining corruptors.
There was nothing intelligent about Machine's play in that whole game.
On February 24 2012 19:27 ThisIsSparta_ wrote: if your opponent is going for infestor broodlord you simply need ghosts for emp. most zergs don't have overseers with their army and cloaked ghosts are rly hard to deal with.
as for the mass drops, ofc you can't drop marines when you go mech, but when going mech you are gas starved anyway so you just make helions out of 1-2 reactor facts. take a group of 5-6 blueflame helions and run them into your opponents mineral line ( ignore spines). you can afford to loose those helions to spines, because you will kill his whole mineral line anyway. with helion harass you should be able to weaken zergs economy enough to hit a timing before broods.
before broods hit zerg simply doesn't have an army to compete with terran mech, so its only fair that terrans now cannot snipe your whole t3 army in a few seconds.
What makes EMP very well mediocre against against Infestors is the fact the are really fat . The maximum amount you can ever hit is 4 and only if the Zerg is an idiot . The amount of HT's or even Ghosts that could be hit is like hmm 10-15? EMP is not that great against Infestors.
EPT
