|
On March 15 2012 10:52 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 10:26 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion. how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important. It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b]
you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is.
if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol.
|
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On March 15 2012 11:16 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 10:52 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 10:26 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion. how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important. It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b] you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is. if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol.
1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?
2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss.
So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there.
|
On March 15 2012 11:33 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 11:16 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:52 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 10:26 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion. how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important. It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b] you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is. if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol. 1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? 2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss. So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there.
genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so.
i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless.
|
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On March 15 2012 11:49 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 11:33 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 11:16 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:52 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 10:26 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion. how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important. It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b] you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is. if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol. 1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? 2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss. So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there. genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so. i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless.
Okay, thank you for sharing your opinion. I think that about wraps it up. Now this thread can move forward to discuss How to Mech TvP without you.
Ill start. I've found that their is a timing I can hit Protoss with about 4-5 ghosts and 2 1/1 Battlecruisers, Siege Tanks, 2-3 Thors, BFH's, 4 Banshees and a Raven and it's really strong at cutting the Protoss off from expanding while you continue to rally in Battlecruisers. At that point, they have nothing to deal with Battlecruisers except Stalkers which are a joke (especially with Raven and Tank support). It hits right around 170 supply usually. It works really well on maps where you can take a fairly fast third as PF (11-12 minutes), and maps where you can abuse cliffs with Siege Tanks and Battlecruisers for vision. Cloud Kingdom is a great expample. It isn't effective if they started producing Void Rays early enough after scouting the Fusion Core (although the scouting is really easy to deny), but even 4 Void Rays against 1/1 Battlecruisers + Thor's and EMP for additional support aren't enough. Also, it's really important to EMP your Battlecruisers and Thors before you push, unless you have a ton of confidence in your Ghost micro.
|
On March 15 2012 11:49 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 11:33 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 11:16 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:52 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 10:26 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion. how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important. It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b] you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is. if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol. 1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? 2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss. So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there. genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so. i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless.
Mech wont work well unless its a cheesy timing or in low leagues in its current state. It's so slow to get to any kind of decent composition and even that gets rolled incredibly easy. It also opens you up to being harrassed by the toss because your so slow. To even have a chance you have to do catastrophic damage with hellions and even then switching into bio is more effective.
But if you want to keep smashing you head into a brink wall be my guest.
|
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On March 15 2012 11:57 tokicheese wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 11:49 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 11:33 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 11:16 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:52 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 10:26 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion. how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important. It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b] you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is. if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol. 1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? 2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss. So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there. genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so. i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless. Mech wont work well unless its a cheesy timing or in low leagues in its current state. It's so slow to get to any kind of decent composition and even that gets rolled incredibly easy. It also opens you up to being harrassed by the toss because your so slow. To even have a chance you have to do catastrophic damage with hellions and even then switching into bio is more effective. But if you want to keep smashing you head into a brink wall be my guest.
I agree, but I still would like to discuss how to improve Mech TvP. Please go discuss the viability of Mech TvP in the appropriate thread.
|
On March 15 2012 11:55 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 11:49 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 11:33 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 11:16 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:52 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 10:26 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion. how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important. It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b] you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is. if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol. 1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? 2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss. So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there. genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so. i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless. Okay, thank you for sharing your opinion. I think that about wraps it up. Now this thread can move forward to discuss How to Mech TvP without you. Ill start. I've found that their is a timing I can hit Protoss with about 4-5 ghosts and 2 1/1 Battlecruisers, Siege Tanks, 2-3 Thors, BFH's, 4 Banshees and a Raven and it's really strong at cutting the Protoss off from expanding while you continue to rally in Battlecruisers. At that point, they have nothing to deal with Battlecruisers except Stalkers which are a joke (especially with Raven and Tank support). It hits right around 170 supply usually. It works really well on maps where you can take a fairly fast third as PF (11-12 minutes), and maps where you can abuse cliffs with Siege Tanks and Battlecruisers for vision. Cloud Kingdom is a great expample. It isn't effective if they started producing Void Rays early enough after scouting the Fusion Core (although the scouting is really easy to deny), but even 4 Void Rays against 1/1 Battlecruisers + Thor's and EMP for additional support aren't enough. Also, it's really important to EMP your Battlecruisers and Thors before you push, unless you have a ton of confidence in your Ghost micro.
So I'd like to state that I don't think mech is viable in TvP. Your composition seems like it takes too long and is not even at max supply.
|
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On March 15 2012 12:00 DaeWang790 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 11:55 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 11:49 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 11:33 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 11:16 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:52 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 10:26 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion. how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important. It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b] you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is. if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol. 1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? 2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss. So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there. genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so. i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless. Okay, thank you for sharing your opinion. I think that about wraps it up. Now this thread can move forward to discuss How to Mech TvP without you. Ill start. I've found that their is a timing I can hit Protoss with about 4-5 ghosts and 2 1/1 Battlecruisers, Siege Tanks, 2-3 Thors, BFH's, 4 Banshees and a Raven and it's really strong at cutting the Protoss off from expanding while you continue to rally in Battlecruisers. At that point, they have nothing to deal with Battlecruisers except Stalkers which are a joke (especially with Raven and Tank support). It hits right around 170 supply usually. It works really well on maps where you can take a fairly fast third as PF (11-12 minutes), and maps where you can abuse cliffs with Siege Tanks and Battlecruisers for vision. Cloud Kingdom is a great expample. It isn't effective if they started producing Void Rays early enough after scouting the Fusion Core (although the scouting is really easy to deny), but even 4 Void Rays against 1/1 Battlecruisers + Thor's and EMP for additional support aren't enough. Also, it's really important to EMP your Battlecruisers and Thors before you push, unless you have a ton of confidence in your Ghost micro. So I'd like to state that I don't think mech is viable in TvP. Your composition seems like it takes too long and is not even at max supply.
That doesn't even make sense. It's a timing. It is supposed to hit at that time. It isn't a composition that's necessary to have earlier, or later. I am saying I have found it works at that timing. Later and they can build up defenses for Battlecruisers, earlier and you have to sacrifice too much of your core army to get the Battlecruisers. But since you are commenting on the timing, what is your experience with it? How do you think it can be improved?
|
mech can't not be improve,becuase it not viable in TvP.People actually don't understand that,the problem that we can't play mech is not the way you play mech is not the proper way,but becuase of the game design.Immortals ,Zealots , Archons , stalkers , pheonix ,voidrays ,mothership is the hard counter to mech .unless you going to do the timing push @ marine banshee thor with +1 armour .i did try so hard to play mech in TvP ,and i got rape so hard.
ps.i just laugh so hard @ people on master level in EU/NA server ,who count them self as a high level player.
My english is so bad,so i apologies people who don't understand my post.
|
Mech has worked as a 2base 4 fac timing push (2tlab 2reactor / 1 tlab 3 reactor) at least a time or two in gsl, tank hellion marine thing*.
There were also some KR gm reps floating around some time ago of a guy going reactor fe into 1 fact(tlab) into 4 fact(3x reactor) and doing a timing @ ~13:00 min with rallied hellions and then transitioning into tank hellion when not winning outright.
So yes if you want to go into semantics mech is viable. At least that sort of a different variation of those "311"-ish 2base pushes/contains.
Is it viable as a standard "i'm going to passively mech and you can go do whatever" who knows, running comps on unit test maps says "maybe". I for one at least can't really be assed to play standard (boring and I really really don't like the multidrop or die trying style) so I either go some 111 variant with or without expo or for a more passive tank hellion (ghost (viking)) when I feel like it. Funny thing is I probably have a way higher winrate now, not that ~30% is a hard number to beat, I'm actually on a pretty good streak right now and even though it's most often my opponent messing up I am as well and I know I'd still have lost some of those games to the good old 1a even after i emp all the ht's.
*Byun vs Oz at least and apparently mkp vs genius even though I haven't seen that one
|
Someone please post the VODs of mkp vs genius and Byun vs Oz?
|
On March 15 2012 11:57 tokicheese wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 11:49 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 11:33 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 11:16 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:52 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 10:26 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion. how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important. It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b] you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is. if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol. 1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? 2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss. So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there. genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so. i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless. Mech wont work well unless its a cheesy timing or in low leagues in its current state. It's so slow to get to any kind of decent composition and even that gets rolled incredibly easy. It also opens you up to being harrassed by the toss because your so slow. To even have a chance you have to do catastrophic damage with hellions and even then switching into bio is more effective. But if you want to keep smashing you head into a brink wall be my guest.
he does. he has for the last 11 pages.
|
Mech wont work well unless its a cheesy timing or in low leagues in its current state. It's so slow to get to any kind of decent composition and even that gets rolled incredibly easy. It also opens you up to being harrassed by the toss because your so slow. To even have a chance you have to do catastrophic damage with hellions and even then switching into bio is more effective.
But if you want to keep smashing you head into a brink wall be my guest.
Is high master/GM a low league for you?
I guess that kind of thread on "how to mech" isn't possible on this forum. Too much people randomly trashing this strat without any knowledge of it
|
Its threads like this that make me lose faith in the sc2 and TL community. This kind of crap is why I left the Bnet forums, yet lo and behold the same behavior is on TL. Those of you coming to this thread to troll and trash mech from gold league or who have never tried it should be ashamed of yourselves. Where are the mods?
|
On March 15 2012 23:03 crocodile wrote:
Its threads like this that make me lose faith in the sc2 and TL community. This kind of crap is why I left the Bnet forums, yet lo and behold the same behavior is on TL. Those of you coming to this thread to troll and trash mech from gold league or who have never tried it should be ashamed of yourselves. Where are the mods?
especially as it works phenomenally at low leagues, as the opponents at that level dont have the multitasking to do the blink and warp in all around the map and Prism and recall play, combined with the lack of sense when it becomes necessary to switch into nonstandard (=not antibio, but antimech) compositions.
|
Exactly. I can't remember the last time I played standard Bio tvp in master league and I have the highest win rate in that MU
|
On March 15 2012 07:20 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 04:50 dotDash wrote:On March 15 2012 04:37 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 03:47 XDJuicebox wrote:On March 14 2012 23:18 sushichef wrote:
Have any of you TvP mech players had to deal with speed warp prisms dropping immortals on your tank line? I've never seen this mentioned as a weakness of TvP mech, and it would be scarier than marauder drops in TvT. Just build turrets and get like 3 vikings On March 14 2012 16:53 rauk wrote:On March 14 2012 16:41 XDJuicebox wrote:
Here are my thoughts on mech. They are probably going to get ignored, but I'm going to post them anyways in hope that there's that one guy who actually reads it and understands what I'm writing.
Mech is sooooooooooo stupidly slow that unless you're good at base trading, you will die to any of a number of Toss's incredibly mobile harass.
The key, I feel, is in the Banshees.
On maps with an easy to take third, take it. On maps with a harder to take third...turtle on two base and go for heavy upgrade, high units before you take your third. On a safe to take third, do the opposite.
You should Turret ring your bases, and place like 1 Marine or 1 Hellion in those key chokes that Stalkers must run by in order to have access to your main. Or you could float a useless building (a BARRACKS for example) in places where Stalkers might runby to Blink in. We like the Turret rings because they kill Observers, they deter warp prisms, and by killing Observers, lessens the Immortal count, as well as the Colossus count, and these are the two things that Mech should truly fear.
If he sacs 2 Observers and manages a MASS blink into your base, a high number of Banshees is the key to dealing with this. Bring only a small chunk of your army to deal with it. But that I mean like half your Hellions, and like 3-5 tanks (assuming you have 20+ and they have like 30 Stalkers). You also need like 3 vikings. When dealing with the Stalkers, you have to accept that you're going to lose some things...just make sure that it's not armories, supply depots, or factories. Addons - doesn't really hurt mech. SCVs don't really hurt mech. In fact, we kind of want to get rid of them...
To deal with the Blink Stalkers, you scan and snipe the Observers, then cloak all of your Banshees. Good luck dealing with that. Warp prisms should theoretically be useless if your Turret rings are placed right. I might even add a sensor tower in addition to the turrets; though redundant, if there are any holes, you can preemptively send Vikings.
The way I currently play mech (should I choose to do so), is a very slow, careful, turtle-y style, which is based entirely off positioning. The key to holding off all of the gay things that Protoss can do?
Barracks.
I'm not even kidding...you build a bunch of Barracks...
If Protoss dumps a ton of money into Zealots, a Barracks wall (which is also a ton of Minerals, except 10 Barracks negates about 40 Zealots, so isn't that a good trade?) on key chokes of the map (sometimes I leave holes and stack my hellions at those holes) is great. Why not bunkers? Or supply depots?
Barracks are mobile (liftoff function), and have the most health-per-cost of any floating Terran building. Plus the game AI is derp, and all the Protoss units will TARGET the Barracks, rather htan your units for some reason. I honestly don't know why, they just love shooting at the Barracks which isn't doing anything. Also, Terran is going to be floating Minerals like crazy, no matter how many Orbital Commands/Hellions you build. Once you are maxed, your money can be used much more efficiency not only in the form of Barracks, but Turrets as well.
Adding in a few Ghosts, we now have a virtually unstoppable army. The key is getting here. In fact, I don't make a single push...until I've taken every single base on my side of the map. Rather, I simply take the best defensive positions (this is map dependent) to take bases, and use an excessive amount of static defense to hold things off.
We don't really care about harassment, because if we are positioned right, nothing the Protoss throws at us can defeat us.
Mass Immortals, I feel, as the largest detriment to mech; and they must be dealt with with a combination of Cloaked Banshees and Ghosts.
We do have a harass capability: Cloaked Banshees, but I recommend harassing in a manner that is used to GAIN GROUND, never send them to the edges of the map or stuff, because the Banshees are key not only for defense, but in the main engagement as well. In fact, I like sending my Vikings forward and just sniping off the Observers, and then having the 5-7 Cloaked Banshees just terran them up...it takes away from the Immortal count, which is really what we want.
Remember to SPAM those Barracks, keep the tank count high, keep a decent Banshee/Viking count, and make lots of Orbitals and sacrifice your SCVs to make more stuff...and most of all, remember to play extremely safe. The game will favor Terran the longer it goes, no need to end it.
I actually prefer to keep most of my tanks unsieged, and using the Banshees to poke and prod, and find out where he'll attack, then sieging up in the right position. Make sure your Barracks wall is ALWAYS down. Only move it when he's a good distance away...because if the chargelots get under it, it's useless.
That's just my thoughts on mech.
Now, it's extremely hard to hold off what Protoss does, you literally have to play perfect...and a bit of a misstep in terms of positioning and you just die. It's ridiculously hard to pull off, so I never even bother. the main problem is that even if you do all that mass tank is still garbage against all protoss units.. Have you ever tested this out? Food for food, cost for cost, (provided the Barracks wall) mass tanks beats any non-air Protoss composition, with the exception of mass Immortals. But like 5 ghosts fixes that problem. 100 food of chargelot archon will beat 100+ food of +3 tanks, and chargelot archon is much easier to replace than 30+ tanks. when you're not in a maxed position chargelot archon wrecks tanks even worse. you can claim emp will beat it but you don't have the money for ghosts and get vikings and upgrades and take a third and research cloak and reactor and you can't chase archon zealot with tanks anyways so if protoss gets emp'd he can back off and there's literally nothing you can do about it. i played 100+ games of mech tvp at mid-high masters, it does not work well at all. Just tried the chargelot/archon vs tanks. I dont think you know of the supreme power of tanks in higher counts. 40chargelots/5archons vs 33tanks on an open field. 18 tanks remain. Add something that will prevent the P from reaching the tanks instantly and you will get very very few tank losses, as the tanks are killing themselves becuase of chargelots. This was tested with +3 mech dmg (no armor) vs +3+3 ground P. P forces a-moved into sieged tanks. Sidenote: I've played with tanks vs P since beta and rocking some GM P with it. I think it works well. Cheers Dan i did 10 archons and 30 chargelots, spread a bit and amove, and toss wins with 3 or so archons left over.
Splendid! Now you understand why I dont go pure tank and add some rines to it. 
Cheers
Dan
|
On March 15 2012 12:08 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 12:00 DaeWang790 wrote:On March 15 2012 11:55 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 11:49 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 11:33 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 11:16 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:52 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 10:26 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion. how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important. It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b] you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is. if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol. 1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? 2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss. So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there. genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so. i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless. Okay, thank you for sharing your opinion. I think that about wraps it up. Now this thread can move forward to discuss How to Mech TvP without you. Ill start. I've found that their is a timing I can hit Protoss with about 4-5 ghosts and 2 1/1 Battlecruisers, Siege Tanks, 2-3 Thors, BFH's, 4 Banshees and a Raven and it's really strong at cutting the Protoss off from expanding while you continue to rally in Battlecruisers. At that point, they have nothing to deal with Battlecruisers except Stalkers which are a joke (especially with Raven and Tank support). It hits right around 170 supply usually. It works really well on maps where you can take a fairly fast third as PF (11-12 minutes), and maps where you can abuse cliffs with Siege Tanks and Battlecruisers for vision. Cloud Kingdom is a great expample. It isn't effective if they started producing Void Rays early enough after scouting the Fusion Core (although the scouting is really easy to deny), but even 4 Void Rays against 1/1 Battlecruisers + Thor's and EMP for additional support aren't enough. Also, it's really important to EMP your Battlecruisers and Thors before you push, unless you have a ton of confidence in your Ghost micro. So I'd like to state that I don't think mech is viable in TvP. Your composition seems like it takes too long and is not even at max supply. That doesn't even make sense. It's a timing. It is supposed to hit at that time. It isn't a composition that's necessary to have earlier, or later. I am saying I have found it works at that timing. Later and they can build up defenses for Battlecruisers, earlier and you have to sacrifice too much of your core army to get the Battlecruisers. But since you are commenting on the timing, what is your experience with it? How do you think it can be improved?
you can't have a battle cruiser ghost Thor timing. A lot of shit happens before then. Have you been practicing against bronze Ai that just lets you sit there and build whatever you want?
|
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On March 16 2012 02:31 DoctorFunk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 12:08 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 12:00 DaeWang790 wrote:On March 15 2012 11:55 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 11:49 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 11:33 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 11:16 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:52 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 10:26 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:08 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Am I the only one here who wants to discuss how to actually play Mech TvP? All of you are just arguing back and forth about whether or not it is viable, or if it only works in X leagues, or if it only works because Protoss don't know how to respond, blah blah blah blah blah.
Let's talk about the best ways to play Mech TvP in a thread called "How to Mech TvP". I know, wild idea guys. Seriously, I wish mods were more present and would actually try and keep people on topic here. This is ridiculous, this thread might as well be closed the way it is going.
If you want to discuss whether or not Mech is viable in TvP, make a thread for that discussion. how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important. It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b] you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is. if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol. 1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? 2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss. So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there. genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so. i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless. Okay, thank you for sharing your opinion. I think that about wraps it up. Now this thread can move forward to discuss How to Mech TvP without you. Ill start. I've found that their is a timing I can hit Protoss with about 4-5 ghosts and 2 1/1 Battlecruisers, Siege Tanks, 2-3 Thors, BFH's, 4 Banshees and a Raven and it's really strong at cutting the Protoss off from expanding while you continue to rally in Battlecruisers. At that point, they have nothing to deal with Battlecruisers except Stalkers which are a joke (especially with Raven and Tank support). It hits right around 170 supply usually. It works really well on maps where you can take a fairly fast third as PF (11-12 minutes), and maps where you can abuse cliffs with Siege Tanks and Battlecruisers for vision. Cloud Kingdom is a great expample. It isn't effective if they started producing Void Rays early enough after scouting the Fusion Core (although the scouting is really easy to deny), but even 4 Void Rays against 1/1 Battlecruisers + Thor's and EMP for additional support aren't enough. Also, it's really important to EMP your Battlecruisers and Thors before you push, unless you have a ton of confidence in your Ghost micro. So I'd like to state that I don't think mech is viable in TvP. Your composition seems like it takes too long and is not even at max supply. That doesn't even make sense. It's a timing. It is supposed to hit at that time. It isn't a composition that's necessary to have earlier, or later. I am saying I have found it works at that timing. Later and they can build up defenses for Battlecruisers, earlier and you have to sacrifice too much of your core army to get the Battlecruisers. But since you are commenting on the timing, what is your experience with it? How do you think it can be improved? you can't have a battle cruiser ghost Thor timing. A lot of shit happens before then. Have you been practicing against bronze Ai that just lets you sit there and build whatever you want?
Are you asking me how I get to 3 bases and how I get that army up?
|
How do you deal with Zealot/Storm comps? Whenever I play vs a Mech Terran, I go Zealot Storm. Mech takes a long time to rebuild, 15 gateways do not.
If the game goes late, mothership actually devastates mech as well with a vortex, you can easily kill 1/2 the army, warp in your replacements, and then kill the other half. And then you have carriers set up which actually destroy mech (even if they lose to marines). I don't think I've ever lost to a real mech play. (i.e. not marine-tank) I just don't think it's the best build, especailly with protoss tending to go heavy gateway/upgrade late game play styles.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
