On March 14 2012 23:18 sushichef wrote: Have any of you TvP mech players had to deal with speed warp prisms dropping immortals on your tank line? I've never seen this mentioned as a weakness of TvP mech, and it would be scarier than marauder drops in TvT.
On March 14 2012 16:41 XDJuicebox wrote: Here are my thoughts on mech. They are probably going to get ignored, but I'm going to post them anyways in hope that there's that one guy who actually reads it and understands what I'm writing.
Mech is sooooooooooo stupidly slow that unless you're good at base trading, you will die to any of a number of Toss's incredibly mobile harass.
The key, I feel, is in the Banshees.
On maps with an easy to take third, take it. On maps with a harder to take third...turtle on two base and go for heavy upgrade, high units before you take your third. On a safe to take third, do the opposite.
You should Turret ring your bases, and place like 1 Marine or 1 Hellion in those key chokes that Stalkers must run by in order to have access to your main. Or you could float a useless building (a BARRACKS for example) in places where Stalkers might runby to Blink in. We like the Turret rings because they kill Observers, they deter warp prisms, and by killing Observers, lessens the Immortal count, as well as the Colossus count, and these are the two things that Mech should truly fear.
If he sacs 2 Observers and manages a MASS blink into your base, a high number of Banshees is the key to dealing with this. Bring only a small chunk of your army to deal with it. But that I mean like half your Hellions, and like 3-5 tanks (assuming you have 20+ and they have like 30 Stalkers). You also need like 3 vikings. When dealing with the Stalkers, you have to accept that you're going to lose some things...just make sure that it's not armories, supply depots, or factories. Addons - doesn't really hurt mech. SCVs don't really hurt mech. In fact, we kind of want to get rid of them...
To deal with the Blink Stalkers, you scan and snipe the Observers, then cloak all of your Banshees. Good luck dealing with that. Warp prisms should theoretically be useless if your Turret rings are placed right. I might even add a sensor tower in addition to the turrets; though redundant, if there are any holes, you can preemptively send Vikings.
The way I currently play mech (should I choose to do so), is a very slow, careful, turtle-y style, which is based entirely off positioning. The key to holding off all of the gay things that Protoss can do?
Barracks.
I'm not even kidding...you build a bunch of Barracks...
If Protoss dumps a ton of money into Zealots, a Barracks wall (which is also a ton of Minerals, except 10 Barracks negates about 40 Zealots, so isn't that a good trade?) on key chokes of the map (sometimes I leave holes and stack my hellions at those holes) is great. Why not bunkers? Or supply depots?
Barracks are mobile (liftoff function), and have the most health-per-cost of any floating Terran building. Plus the game AI is derp, and all the Protoss units will TARGET the Barracks, rather htan your units for some reason. I honestly don't know why, they just love shooting at the Barracks which isn't doing anything. Also, Terran is going to be floating Minerals like crazy, no matter how many Orbital Commands/Hellions you build. Once you are maxed, your money can be used much more efficiency not only in the form of Barracks, but Turrets as well.
Adding in a few Ghosts, we now have a virtually unstoppable army. The key is getting here. In fact, I don't make a single push...until I've taken every single base on my side of the map. Rather, I simply take the best defensive positions (this is map dependent) to take bases, and use an excessive amount of static defense to hold things off.
We don't really care about harassment, because if we are positioned right, nothing the Protoss throws at us can defeat us.
Mass Immortals, I feel, as the largest detriment to mech; and they must be dealt with with a combination of Cloaked Banshees and Ghosts.
We do have a harass capability: Cloaked Banshees, but I recommend harassing in a manner that is used to GAIN GROUND, never send them to the edges of the map or stuff, because the Banshees are key not only for defense, but in the main engagement as well. In fact, I like sending my Vikings forward and just sniping off the Observers, and then having the 5-7 Cloaked Banshees just terran them up...it takes away from the Immortal count, which is really what we want.
Remember to SPAM those Barracks, keep the tank count high, keep a decent Banshee/Viking count, and make lots of Orbitals and sacrifice your SCVs to make more stuff...and most of all, remember to play extremely safe. The game will favor Terran the longer it goes, no need to end it.
I actually prefer to keep most of my tanks unsieged, and using the Banshees to poke and prod, and find out where he'll attack, then sieging up in the right position. Make sure your Barracks wall is ALWAYS down. Only move it when he's a good distance away...because if the chargelots get under it, it's useless.
That's just my thoughts on mech.
Now, it's extremely hard to hold off what Protoss does, you literally have to play perfect...and a bit of a misstep in terms of positioning and you just die. It's ridiculously hard to pull off, so I never even bother.
the main problem is that even if you do all that mass tank is still garbage against all protoss units..
Have you ever tested this out? Food for food, cost for cost, (provided the Barracks wall) mass tanks beats any non-air Protoss composition, with the exception of mass Immortals. But like 5 ghosts fixes that problem.
100 food of chargelot archon will beat 100+ food of +3 tanks, and chargelot archon is much easier to replace than 30+ tanks. when you're not in a maxed position chargelot archon wrecks tanks even worse. you can claim emp will beat it but you don't have the money for ghosts and get vikings and upgrades and take a third and research cloak and reactor and you can't chase archon zealot with tanks anyways so if protoss gets emp'd he can back off and there's literally nothing you can do about it. i played 100+ games of mech tvp at mid-high masters, it does not work well at all.
On March 15 2012 04:03 darkcloud8282 wrote: I think people underestimate the power of thors with some siege tank and air support. I was hoping more terrans would showcase mech in TvP in the GSL after Jinro showed that crazy game against MC.
Anyhow, late game chargelots are pretty bad against BFH.. The biggest problem is having to split up your upgrades between air and ground, you will probably need like 3 armories.
Where was this crazy Jinro/MC game? I'd love to see it!
On March 14 2012 23:18 sushichef wrote: Have any of you TvP mech players had to deal with speed warp prisms dropping immortals on your tank line? I've never seen this mentioned as a weakness of TvP mech, and it would be scarier than marauder drops in TvT.
Just build turrets and get like 3 vikings
On March 14 2012 16:53 rauk wrote:
On March 14 2012 16:41 XDJuicebox wrote: Here are my thoughts on mech. They are probably going to get ignored, but I'm going to post them anyways in hope that there's that one guy who actually reads it and understands what I'm writing.
Mech is sooooooooooo stupidly slow that unless you're good at base trading, you will die to any of a number of Toss's incredibly mobile harass.
The key, I feel, is in the Banshees.
On maps with an easy to take third, take it. On maps with a harder to take third...turtle on two base and go for heavy upgrade, high units before you take your third. On a safe to take third, do the opposite.
You should Turret ring your bases, and place like 1 Marine or 1 Hellion in those key chokes that Stalkers must run by in order to have access to your main. Or you could float a useless building (a BARRACKS for example) in places where Stalkers might runby to Blink in. We like the Turret rings because they kill Observers, they deter warp prisms, and by killing Observers, lessens the Immortal count, as well as the Colossus count, and these are the two things that Mech should truly fear.
If he sacs 2 Observers and manages a MASS blink into your base, a high number of Banshees is the key to dealing with this. Bring only a small chunk of your army to deal with it. But that I mean like half your Hellions, and like 3-5 tanks (assuming you have 20+ and they have like 30 Stalkers). You also need like 3 vikings. When dealing with the Stalkers, you have to accept that you're going to lose some things...just make sure that it's not armories, supply depots, or factories. Addons - doesn't really hurt mech. SCVs don't really hurt mech. In fact, we kind of want to get rid of them...
To deal with the Blink Stalkers, you scan and snipe the Observers, then cloak all of your Banshees. Good luck dealing with that. Warp prisms should theoretically be useless if your Turret rings are placed right. I might even add a sensor tower in addition to the turrets; though redundant, if there are any holes, you can preemptively send Vikings.
The way I currently play mech (should I choose to do so), is a very slow, careful, turtle-y style, which is based entirely off positioning. The key to holding off all of the gay things that Protoss can do?
Barracks.
I'm not even kidding...you build a bunch of Barracks...
If Protoss dumps a ton of money into Zealots, a Barracks wall (which is also a ton of Minerals, except 10 Barracks negates about 40 Zealots, so isn't that a good trade?) on key chokes of the map (sometimes I leave holes and stack my hellions at those holes) is great. Why not bunkers? Or supply depots?
Barracks are mobile (liftoff function), and have the most health-per-cost of any floating Terran building. Plus the game AI is derp, and all the Protoss units will TARGET the Barracks, rather htan your units for some reason. I honestly don't know why, they just love shooting at the Barracks which isn't doing anything. Also, Terran is going to be floating Minerals like crazy, no matter how many Orbital Commands/Hellions you build. Once you are maxed, your money can be used much more efficiency not only in the form of Barracks, but Turrets as well.
Adding in a few Ghosts, we now have a virtually unstoppable army. The key is getting here. In fact, I don't make a single push...until I've taken every single base on my side of the map. Rather, I simply take the best defensive positions (this is map dependent) to take bases, and use an excessive amount of static defense to hold things off.
We don't really care about harassment, because if we are positioned right, nothing the Protoss throws at us can defeat us.
Mass Immortals, I feel, as the largest detriment to mech; and they must be dealt with with a combination of Cloaked Banshees and Ghosts.
We do have a harass capability: Cloaked Banshees, but I recommend harassing in a manner that is used to GAIN GROUND, never send them to the edges of the map or stuff, because the Banshees are key not only for defense, but in the main engagement as well. In fact, I like sending my Vikings forward and just sniping off the Observers, and then having the 5-7 Cloaked Banshees just terran them up...it takes away from the Immortal count, which is really what we want.
Remember to SPAM those Barracks, keep the tank count high, keep a decent Banshee/Viking count, and make lots of Orbitals and sacrifice your SCVs to make more stuff...and most of all, remember to play extremely safe. The game will favor Terran the longer it goes, no need to end it.
I actually prefer to keep most of my tanks unsieged, and using the Banshees to poke and prod, and find out where he'll attack, then sieging up in the right position. Make sure your Barracks wall is ALWAYS down. Only move it when he's a good distance away...because if the chargelots get under it, it's useless.
That's just my thoughts on mech.
Now, it's extremely hard to hold off what Protoss does, you literally have to play perfect...and a bit of a misstep in terms of positioning and you just die. It's ridiculously hard to pull off, so I never even bother.
the main problem is that even if you do all that mass tank is still garbage against all protoss units..
Have you ever tested this out? Food for food, cost for cost, (provided the Barracks wall) mass tanks beats any non-air Protoss composition, with the exception of mass Immortals. But like 5 ghosts fixes that problem.
100 food of chargelot archon will beat 100+ food of +3 tanks, and chargelot archon is much easier to replace than 30+ tanks. when you're not in a maxed position chargelot archon wrecks tanks even worse. you can claim emp will beat it but you don't have the money for ghosts and get vikings and upgrades and take a third and research cloak and reactor and you can't chase archon zealot with tanks anyways so if protoss gets emp'd he can back off and there's literally nothing you can do about it. i played 100+ games of mech tvp at mid-high masters, it does not work well at all.
Just tried the chargelot/archon vs tanks. I dont think you know of the supreme power of tanks in higher counts. 40chargelots/5archons vs 33tanks on an open field. 18 tanks remain. Add something that will prevent the P from reaching the tanks instantly and you will get very very few tank losses, as the tanks are killing themselves becuase of chargelots.
This was tested with +3 mech dmg (no armor) vs +3+3 ground P. P forces a-moved into sieged tanks.
Sidenote: I've played with tanks vs P since beta and rocking some GM P with it. I think it works well.
On March 14 2012 23:18 sushichef wrote: Have any of you TvP mech players had to deal with speed warp prisms dropping immortals on your tank line? I've never seen this mentioned as a weakness of TvP mech, and it would be scarier than marauder drops in TvT.
Just build turrets and get like 3 vikings
On March 14 2012 16:53 rauk wrote:
On March 14 2012 16:41 XDJuicebox wrote: Here are my thoughts on mech. They are probably going to get ignored, but I'm going to post them anyways in hope that there's that one guy who actually reads it and understands what I'm writing.
Mech is sooooooooooo stupidly slow that unless you're good at base trading, you will die to any of a number of Toss's incredibly mobile harass.
The key, I feel, is in the Banshees.
On maps with an easy to take third, take it. On maps with a harder to take third...turtle on two base and go for heavy upgrade, high units before you take your third. On a safe to take third, do the opposite.
You should Turret ring your bases, and place like 1 Marine or 1 Hellion in those key chokes that Stalkers must run by in order to have access to your main. Or you could float a useless building (a BARRACKS for example) in places where Stalkers might runby to Blink in. We like the Turret rings because they kill Observers, they deter warp prisms, and by killing Observers, lessens the Immortal count, as well as the Colossus count, and these are the two things that Mech should truly fear.
If he sacs 2 Observers and manages a MASS blink into your base, a high number of Banshees is the key to dealing with this. Bring only a small chunk of your army to deal with it. But that I mean like half your Hellions, and like 3-5 tanks (assuming you have 20+ and they have like 30 Stalkers). You also need like 3 vikings. When dealing with the Stalkers, you have to accept that you're going to lose some things...just make sure that it's not armories, supply depots, or factories. Addons - doesn't really hurt mech. SCVs don't really hurt mech. In fact, we kind of want to get rid of them...
To deal with the Blink Stalkers, you scan and snipe the Observers, then cloak all of your Banshees. Good luck dealing with that. Warp prisms should theoretically be useless if your Turret rings are placed right. I might even add a sensor tower in addition to the turrets; though redundant, if there are any holes, you can preemptively send Vikings.
The way I currently play mech (should I choose to do so), is a very slow, careful, turtle-y style, which is based entirely off positioning. The key to holding off all of the gay things that Protoss can do?
Barracks.
I'm not even kidding...you build a bunch of Barracks...
If Protoss dumps a ton of money into Zealots, a Barracks wall (which is also a ton of Minerals, except 10 Barracks negates about 40 Zealots, so isn't that a good trade?) on key chokes of the map (sometimes I leave holes and stack my hellions at those holes) is great. Why not bunkers? Or supply depots?
Barracks are mobile (liftoff function), and have the most health-per-cost of any floating Terran building. Plus the game AI is derp, and all the Protoss units will TARGET the Barracks, rather htan your units for some reason. I honestly don't know why, they just love shooting at the Barracks which isn't doing anything. Also, Terran is going to be floating Minerals like crazy, no matter how many Orbital Commands/Hellions you build. Once you are maxed, your money can be used much more efficiency not only in the form of Barracks, but Turrets as well.
Adding in a few Ghosts, we now have a virtually unstoppable army. The key is getting here. In fact, I don't make a single push...until I've taken every single base on my side of the map. Rather, I simply take the best defensive positions (this is map dependent) to take bases, and use an excessive amount of static defense to hold things off.
We don't really care about harassment, because if we are positioned right, nothing the Protoss throws at us can defeat us.
Mass Immortals, I feel, as the largest detriment to mech; and they must be dealt with with a combination of Cloaked Banshees and Ghosts.
We do have a harass capability: Cloaked Banshees, but I recommend harassing in a manner that is used to GAIN GROUND, never send them to the edges of the map or stuff, because the Banshees are key not only for defense, but in the main engagement as well. In fact, I like sending my Vikings forward and just sniping off the Observers, and then having the 5-7 Cloaked Banshees just terran them up...it takes away from the Immortal count, which is really what we want.
Remember to SPAM those Barracks, keep the tank count high, keep a decent Banshee/Viking count, and make lots of Orbitals and sacrifice your SCVs to make more stuff...and most of all, remember to play extremely safe. The game will favor Terran the longer it goes, no need to end it.
I actually prefer to keep most of my tanks unsieged, and using the Banshees to poke and prod, and find out where he'll attack, then sieging up in the right position. Make sure your Barracks wall is ALWAYS down. Only move it when he's a good distance away...because if the chargelots get under it, it's useless.
That's just my thoughts on mech.
Now, it's extremely hard to hold off what Protoss does, you literally have to play perfect...and a bit of a misstep in terms of positioning and you just die. It's ridiculously hard to pull off, so I never even bother.
the main problem is that even if you do all that mass tank is still garbage against all protoss units..
Have you ever tested this out? Food for food, cost for cost, (provided the Barracks wall) mass tanks beats any non-air Protoss composition, with the exception of mass Immortals. But like 5 ghosts fixes that problem.
100 food of chargelot archon will beat 100+ food of +3 tanks, and chargelot archon is much easier to replace than 30+ tanks. when you're not in a maxed position chargelot archon wrecks tanks even worse. you can claim emp will beat it but you don't have the money for ghosts and get vikings and upgrades and take a third and research cloak and reactor and you can't chase archon zealot with tanks anyways so if protoss gets emp'd he can back off and there's literally nothing you can do about it. i played 100+ games of mech tvp at mid-high masters, it does not work well at all.
Perhaps you were playing it wrong? 100 games of some random master player doesn't make all of Mech obsolete because he couldn't get it to work. It takes a lot more people, a lot smarter than the average masters player, to fully flesh out a style. And the argument you are making doesn't add anything to the topic of this thread.
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Most people don't get that . . . they keep saying 'mech TvP don't work' because they randomly tried one mech game without any idea on the build order or army composition . . . They don't even bother watching replays in most cases.
This is sad , because mech is clearly an under explored strategy, and some players are already able to get good results with it (lots of people high master/Low gm like me, but even better players like Illusion)
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Most people don't get that . . . they keep saying 'mech TvP don't work' because they randomly tried one mech game without any idea on the build order or army composition . . . They don't even bother watching replays in most cases.
This is sad , because mech is clearly an under explored strategy, and some players are already able to get good results with it (lots of people high master/Low gm like me, but even better players like Illusion)
People will say UNEXPLORED cause they don't see people using it.
Avilo pretty much touches on the fact that players HAVE tried it and tried to explore possibilities. However, each new patch, nerfed TvP mech. Seige tank nerf, BFH nerf, Thor buff/re-nerf, EMP nerf, all affect TvP mech directly.
Playing TvP mech is extremely difficult and Protoss counters to mech are extremely easy to execute. Any stargate tech out for the Protoss forces vikings(useless supply) and thors. If you guess wrong(mis-scan) against their composition, you get steam rolled.
To quote Avilo: "it's out of the players hands'."
EDIT: I've tried mech since release and even re-explored it after Day9 did a daily on it. There's just zero flexibility and its incredibly unforgiving in a matchup that already favors Protoss lategame deathball style. I would strongly discourage any beginner players to even think about meching in the matchup. You waste tons of time and don't really learn much of anything in terms of understanding the matchup.
Have you at least looked at day9 Tvp mech daily, or watched some high mas/GM TvP meching players rep? Avilo says some things, Day9 says others for example.. Each one can make his own advice but as somebody who is going to probably be in GM next season and is doing it by only meching since nearly ine year . . well, my advice is kind of obvious
On March 15 2012 05:46 Lyyna wrote: Have you at least looked at day9 Tvp mech daily, or watched some high mas/GM TvP meching players rep? Avilo says some things, Day9 says others for example.. Each one can make his own advice but as somebody who is going to probably be in GM next season and is doing it by only meching since nearly ine year . . well, my advice is kind of obvious
And that's on ladder. Any BoX you will get demolished if you remain stubborn.
People will encounter mech and react incredibly poorly because they don't change their style or understand mech's weaknesses. Mech being viable means doesn't matter if the opponent scouts it or not or tries to "counter" it. If the strategy is solid and executed and timed well, than it should obviously hold just fine if its scouted.
Banking on the opponent reacting poorly and pretending he's still playing against marine/maruader in the game, is incredibly fragile.
My own personal experience after wanting to do it from retail and post-Day9 daily encouragement, why gimp yourself into a inflexible unit composition that has tons of BUILT-IN counters(brain dead easy as well) just so you can lose to people you shouldn't be losing to? Attempting and trying to make it work will just make you even more convinced to go marine/marauder.
I can slightly agree on that fullmech is probably not possible vs P. But I will keep on standing behind the idea of biomech or skyterran combined with mech, as that is what I am doing.
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Most people don't get that . . . they keep saying 'mech TvP don't work' because they randomly tried one mech game without any idea on the build order or army composition . . . They don't even bother watching replays in most cases.
This is sad , because mech is clearly an under explored strategy, and some players are already able to get good results with it (lots of people high master/Low gm like me, but even better players like Illusion)
People will say UNEXPLORED cause they don't see people using it.
Avilo pretty much touches on the fact that players HAVE tried it and tried to explore possibilities. However, each new patch, nerfed TvP mech. Seige tank nerf, BFH nerf, Thor buff/re-nerf, EMP nerf, all affect TvP mech directly.
Playing TvP mech is extremely difficult and Protoss counters to mech are extremely easy to execute. Any stargate tech out for the Protoss forces vikings(useless supply) and thors. If you guess wrong(mis-scan) against their composition, you get steam rolled.
To quote Avilo: "it's out of the players hands'."
EDIT: I've tried mech since release and even re-explored it after Day9 did a daily on it. There's just zero flexibility and its incredibly unforgiving in a matchup that already favors Protoss lategame deathball style. I would strongly discourage any beginner players to even think about meching in the matchup. You waste tons of time and don't really learn much of anything in terms of understanding the matchup.
Once again, the thread isn't "Can you Mech in TvP", it is "How to Mech in TvP". If you have nothing to offer in terms of how to use Mech in TvP, then don't comment in this thread. It's really that simply. Goodbye.
On a more positive note, does anyone have any good leads on timings to hit against certain Protoss compositions? We know of a few solid 2 base timings with Thors, what about 3 base timings with Ghosts or 1/1 Battlecruisers?
On March 15 2012 06:04 dotDash wrote: I can slightly agree on that fullmech is probably not possible vs P. But I will keep on standing behind the idea of biomech or skyterran combined with mech, as that is what I am doing.
Cheers Dan
Gumiho and other Terrans have been getting up a couple of tanks in the early game to create a good hold against 2 base all-ins from protoss. I actually like how they play it out since they actually produce out of the factory when usually they would float it away to the Protoss's base and block their army. Tanks are still good in some circumstances during the course of the game, but the core of the army still has to be marine/marauder.
On March 15 2012 05:46 Lyyna wrote: Have you at least looked at day9 Tvp mech daily, or watched some high mas/GM TvP meching players rep? Avilo says some things, Day9 says others for example.. Each one can make his own advice but as somebody who is going to probably be in GM next season and is doing it by only meching since nearly ine year . . well, my advice is kind of obvious
And that's on ladder. Any BoX you will get demolished if you remain stubborn.
People will encounter mech and react incredibly poorly because they don't change their style or understand mech's weaknesses. Mech being viable means doesn't matter if the opponent scouts it or not or tries to "counter" it. If the strategy is solid and executed and timed well, than it should obviously hold just fine if its scouted.
Banking on the opponent reacting poorly and pretending he's still playing against marine/maruader in the game, is incredibly fragile.
My own personal experience after wanting to do it from retail and post-Day9 daily encouragement, why gimp yourself into a inflexible unit composition that has tons of BUILT-IN counters(brain dead easy as well) just so you can lose to people you shouldn't be losing to? Attempting and trying to make it work will just make you even more convinced to go marine/marauder.
I'm not a pro,i'm not a super high GM player, but i think i'm not really bad, and i often run into situations where i do have to face numerous times the same opponent (like chain laddering, or in clan war, or in training games with mates), so they know how do i play,and they still loose to it.
My own experience from it is that i can nearly always get away with my own defensive mech play, while always loosing when playing bio because my army is so weak and totally depends of economic damage/uppgrad advantage to win lategame
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Most people don't get that . . . they keep saying 'mech TvP don't work' because they randomly tried one mech game without any idea on the build order or army composition . . . They don't even bother watching replays in most cases.
This is sad , because mech is clearly an under explored strategy, and some players are already able to get good results with it (lots of people high master/Low gm like me, but even better players like Illusion)
People will say UNEXPLORED cause they don't see people using it.
Avilo pretty much touches on the fact that players HAVE tried it and tried to explore possibilities. However, each new patch, nerfed TvP mech. Seige tank nerf, BFH nerf, Thor buff/re-nerf, EMP nerf, all affect TvP mech directly.
Playing TvP mech is extremely difficult and Protoss counters to mech are extremely easy to execute. Any stargate tech out for the Protoss forces vikings(useless supply) and thors. If you guess wrong(mis-scan) against their composition, you get steam rolled.
To quote Avilo: "it's out of the players hands'."
EDIT: I've tried mech since release and even re-explored it after Day9 did a daily on it. There's just zero flexibility and its incredibly unforgiving in a matchup that already favors Protoss lategame deathball style. I would strongly discourage any beginner players to even think about meching in the matchup. You waste tons of time and don't really learn much of anything in terms of understanding the matchup.
Once again, the thread isn't "Can you Mech in TvP", it is "How to Mech in TvP". If you have nothing to offer in terms of how to use Mech in TvP, then don't comment in this thread. It's really that simply. Goodbye.
On a more positive note, does anyone have any good leads on timings to hit against certain Protoss compositions? We know of a few solid 2 base timings with Thors, what about 3 base timings with Ghosts or 1/1 Battlecruisers?
There are no 3 base timings.
3 base means you need to go full 200/200 if you wanna attack with your army. Which presents several problems.
1) taking a third relatively fast isn't friendly on most maps when you have an immobile army 2) taking a third means you must skimp production slightly AND spread your army out
The reason why 2 base mech will actually do damage cause its usually around the time protoss already are trying to get their third up. Also in this time frame they can only have so much tech out(charge, blink, storm, colossus, immortal, etc). If you don't attack with your army at this time to do damage, by the time you attack on 3 base, they can have everything I just mentioned and 3/3 upgrades which will all trade with your army in the Protoss' favor and lets protoss take control of the map for free.
On March 15 2012 06:04 dotDash wrote: I can slightly agree on that fullmech is probably not possible vs P. But I will keep on standing behind the idea of biomech or skyterran combined with mech, as that is what I am doing.
Cheers Dan
Gumiho and other Terrans have been getting up a couple of tanks in the early game to create a good hold against 2 base all-ins from protoss. I actually like how they play it out since they actually produce out of the factory when usually they would float it away to the Protoss's base and block their army. Tanks are still good in some circumstances during the course of the game, but the core of the army still has to be marine/marauder.
What if you play without a core army?
You have tanks in defense so he can't attack cost effective and you harass him to death with banshee/drops. It's a style I've been trying out as it transition into skyterran pretty good.. which is what I ultimately want to go for in endgame vs P.
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Most people don't get that . . . they keep saying 'mech TvP don't work' because they randomly tried one mech game without any idea on the build order or army composition . . . They don't even bother watching replays in most cases.
This is sad , because mech is clearly an under explored strategy, and some players are already able to get good results with it (lots of people high master/Low gm like me, but even better players like Illusion)
People will say UNEXPLORED cause they don't see people using it.
Avilo pretty much touches on the fact that players HAVE tried it and tried to explore possibilities. However, each new patch, nerfed TvP mech. Seige tank nerf, BFH nerf, Thor buff/re-nerf, EMP nerf, all affect TvP mech directly.
Playing TvP mech is extremely difficult and Protoss counters to mech are extremely easy to execute. Any stargate tech out for the Protoss forces vikings(useless supply) and thors. If you guess wrong(mis-scan) against their composition, you get steam rolled.
To quote Avilo: "it's out of the players hands'."
EDIT: I've tried mech since release and even re-explored it after Day9 did a daily on it. There's just zero flexibility and its incredibly unforgiving in a matchup that already favors Protoss lategame deathball style. I would strongly discourage any beginner players to even think about meching in the matchup. You waste tons of time and don't really learn much of anything in terms of understanding the matchup.
Once again, the thread isn't "Can you Mech in TvP", it is "How to Mech in TvP". If you have nothing to offer in terms of how to use Mech in TvP, then don't comment in this thread. It's really that simply. Goodbye.
On a more positive note, does anyone have any good leads on timings to hit against certain Protoss compositions? We know of a few solid 2 base timings with Thors, what about 3 base timings with Ghosts or 1/1 Battlecruisers?
telling people not to post unless they have something to add, and then not adding anything yourself -.-. gg bro, gg ofc it is possible to win using mech, but that doesnt mean its a sensible plan. its possible to win with PF rushes, but i dont see any threads on that.
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Most people don't get that . . . they keep saying 'mech TvP don't work' because they randomly tried one mech game without any idea on the build order or army composition . . . They don't even bother watching replays in most cases.
This is sad , because mech is clearly an under explored strategy, and some players are already able to get good results with it (lots of people high master/Low gm like me, but even better players like Illusion)
People will say UNEXPLORED cause they don't see people using it.
Avilo pretty much touches on the fact that players HAVE tried it and tried to explore possibilities. However, each new patch, nerfed TvP mech. Seige tank nerf, BFH nerf, Thor buff/re-nerf, EMP nerf, all affect TvP mech directly.
Playing TvP mech is extremely difficult and Protoss counters to mech are extremely easy to execute. Any stargate tech out for the Protoss forces vikings(useless supply) and thors. If you guess wrong(mis-scan) against their composition, you get steam rolled.
To quote Avilo: "it's out of the players hands'."
EDIT: I've tried mech since release and even re-explored it after Day9 did a daily on it. There's just zero flexibility and its incredibly unforgiving in a matchup that already favors Protoss lategame deathball style. I would strongly discourage any beginner players to even think about meching in the matchup. You waste tons of time and don't really learn much of anything in terms of understanding the matchup.
Once again, the thread isn't "Can you Mech in TvP", it is "How to Mech in TvP". If you have nothing to offer in terms of how to use Mech in TvP, then don't comment in this thread. It's really that simply. Goodbye.
On a more positive note, does anyone have any good leads on timings to hit against certain Protoss compositions? We know of a few solid 2 base timings with Thors, what about 3 base timings with Ghosts or 1/1 Battlecruisers?
telling people not to post unless they have something to add, and then not adding anything yourself -.-. gg bro, gg ofc it is possible to win using mech, but that doesnt mean its a sensible plan. its possible to win with PF rushes, but i dont see any threads on that.
You misunderstood my post. I am asking people not to discuss "Can mech work TvP" in a "How to Mech in TvP" thread. Simply make another thread if that's what you want to discuss. I am asking a question to further discussion on how to to Mech TvP.
If there was a thread on "How to PF rush" (lol), it wouldn't help to make posts about how PF rushes aren't viable.
We are past the "Is it viable" discussion, we are here to discuss how one should go about doing it. It's really simple. If you don't wan't to discuss How to Mech TvP, gtfo of the thread please.
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Most people don't get that . . . they keep saying 'mech TvP don't work' because they randomly tried one mech game without any idea on the build order or army composition . . . They don't even bother watching replays in most cases.
This is sad , because mech is clearly an under explored strategy, and some players are already able to get good results with it (lots of people high master/Low gm like me, but even better players like Illusion)
People will say UNEXPLORED cause they don't see people using it.
Avilo pretty much touches on the fact that players HAVE tried it and tried to explore possibilities. However, each new patch, nerfed TvP mech. Seige tank nerf, BFH nerf, Thor buff/re-nerf, EMP nerf, all affect TvP mech directly.
Playing TvP mech is extremely difficult and Protoss counters to mech are extremely easy to execute. Any stargate tech out for the Protoss forces vikings(useless supply) and thors. If you guess wrong(mis-scan) against their composition, you get steam rolled.
To quote Avilo: "it's out of the players hands'."
EDIT: I've tried mech since release and even re-explored it after Day9 did a daily on it. There's just zero flexibility and its incredibly unforgiving in a matchup that already favors Protoss lategame deathball style. I would strongly discourage any beginner players to even think about meching in the matchup. You waste tons of time and don't really learn much of anything in terms of understanding the matchup.
Once again, the thread isn't "Can you Mech in TvP", it is "How to Mech in TvP". If you have nothing to offer in terms of how to use Mech in TvP, then don't comment in this thread. It's really that simply. Goodbye.
On a more positive note, does anyone have any good leads on timings to hit against certain Protoss compositions? We know of a few solid 2 base timings with Thors, what about 3 base timings with Ghosts or 1/1 Battlecruisers?
telling people not to post unless they have something to add, and then not adding anything yourself -.-. gg bro, gg ofc it is possible to win using mech, but that doesnt mean its a sensible plan. its possible to win with PF rushes, but i dont see any threads on that.
Cheeses and allins all have bad winrates, else they would be standard play, yet we see tons of guides on them in the forums.
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Most people don't get that . . . they keep saying 'mech TvP don't work' because they randomly tried one mech game without any idea on the build order or army composition . . . They don't even bother watching replays in most cases.
This is sad , because mech is clearly an under explored strategy, and some players are already able to get good results with it (lots of people high master/Low gm like me, but even better players like Illusion)
People will say UNEXPLORED cause they don't see people using it.
Avilo pretty much touches on the fact that players HAVE tried it and tried to explore possibilities. However, each new patch, nerfed TvP mech. Seige tank nerf, BFH nerf, Thor buff/re-nerf, EMP nerf, all affect TvP mech directly.
Playing TvP mech is extremely difficult and Protoss counters to mech are extremely easy to execute. Any stargate tech out for the Protoss forces vikings(useless supply) and thors. If you guess wrong(mis-scan) against their composition, you get steam rolled.
To quote Avilo: "it's out of the players hands'."
EDIT: I've tried mech since release and even re-explored it after Day9 did a daily on it. There's just zero flexibility and its incredibly unforgiving in a matchup that already favors Protoss lategame deathball style. I would strongly discourage any beginner players to even think about meching in the matchup. You waste tons of time and don't really learn much of anything in terms of understanding the matchup.
Once again, the thread isn't "Can you Mech in TvP", it is "How to Mech in TvP". If you have nothing to offer in terms of how to use Mech in TvP, then don't comment in this thread. It's really that simply. Goodbye.
On a more positive note, does anyone have any good leads on timings to hit against certain Protoss compositions? We know of a few solid 2 base timings with Thors, what about 3 base timings with Ghosts or 1/1 Battlecruisers?
telling people not to post unless they have something to add, and then not adding anything yourself -.-. gg bro, gg ofc it is possible to win using mech, but that doesnt mean its a sensible plan. its possible to win with PF rushes, but i dont see any threads on that.
You misunderstood my post. I am asking people not to discuss "Can mech work TvP" in a "How to Mech in TvP" thread. Simply make another thread if that's what you want to discuss. I am asking a question to further discussion on how to to Mech TvP.
If there was a thread on "How to PF rush" (lol), it wouldn't help to make posts about how PF rushes aren't viable.
We are past the "Is it viable" discussion, we are here to discuss how one should go about doing it. It's really simple. If you don't wan't to discuss How to Mech TvP, gtfo of the thread please.
You misunderstand my post. People read guides all the time here on TL strategy and they try it out if they want to. Just like a product you buy at the store. I'm just giving my review of the product, this case "TvP mech" out of personal experience. People deserve to hear both sides instead of being deluded they're apart of an "upcoming" trend of mech users in the SC2 world.
On March 14 2012 23:18 sushichef wrote: Have any of you TvP mech players had to deal with speed warp prisms dropping immortals on your tank line? I've never seen this mentioned as a weakness of TvP mech, and it would be scarier than marauder drops in TvT.
Just build turrets and get like 3 vikings
On March 14 2012 16:53 rauk wrote:
On March 14 2012 16:41 XDJuicebox wrote: Here are my thoughts on mech. They are probably going to get ignored, but I'm going to post them anyways in hope that there's that one guy who actually reads it and understands what I'm writing.
Mech is sooooooooooo stupidly slow that unless you're good at base trading, you will die to any of a number of Toss's incredibly mobile harass.
The key, I feel, is in the Banshees.
On maps with an easy to take third, take it. On maps with a harder to take third...turtle on two base and go for heavy upgrade, high units before you take your third. On a safe to take third, do the opposite.
You should Turret ring your bases, and place like 1 Marine or 1 Hellion in those key chokes that Stalkers must run by in order to have access to your main. Or you could float a useless building (a BARRACKS for example) in places where Stalkers might runby to Blink in. We like the Turret rings because they kill Observers, they deter warp prisms, and by killing Observers, lessens the Immortal count, as well as the Colossus count, and these are the two things that Mech should truly fear.
If he sacs 2 Observers and manages a MASS blink into your base, a high number of Banshees is the key to dealing with this. Bring only a small chunk of your army to deal with it. But that I mean like half your Hellions, and like 3-5 tanks (assuming you have 20+ and they have like 30 Stalkers). You also need like 3 vikings. When dealing with the Stalkers, you have to accept that you're going to lose some things...just make sure that it's not armories, supply depots, or factories. Addons - doesn't really hurt mech. SCVs don't really hurt mech. In fact, we kind of want to get rid of them...
To deal with the Blink Stalkers, you scan and snipe the Observers, then cloak all of your Banshees. Good luck dealing with that. Warp prisms should theoretically be useless if your Turret rings are placed right. I might even add a sensor tower in addition to the turrets; though redundant, if there are any holes, you can preemptively send Vikings.
The way I currently play mech (should I choose to do so), is a very slow, careful, turtle-y style, which is based entirely off positioning. The key to holding off all of the gay things that Protoss can do?
Barracks.
I'm not even kidding...you build a bunch of Barracks...
If Protoss dumps a ton of money into Zealots, a Barracks wall (which is also a ton of Minerals, except 10 Barracks negates about 40 Zealots, so isn't that a good trade?) on key chokes of the map (sometimes I leave holes and stack my hellions at those holes) is great. Why not bunkers? Or supply depots?
Barracks are mobile (liftoff function), and have the most health-per-cost of any floating Terran building. Plus the game AI is derp, and all the Protoss units will TARGET the Barracks, rather htan your units for some reason. I honestly don't know why, they just love shooting at the Barracks which isn't doing anything. Also, Terran is going to be floating Minerals like crazy, no matter how many Orbital Commands/Hellions you build. Once you are maxed, your money can be used much more efficiency not only in the form of Barracks, but Turrets as well.
Adding in a few Ghosts, we now have a virtually unstoppable army. The key is getting here. In fact, I don't make a single push...until I've taken every single base on my side of the map. Rather, I simply take the best defensive positions (this is map dependent) to take bases, and use an excessive amount of static defense to hold things off.
We don't really care about harassment, because if we are positioned right, nothing the Protoss throws at us can defeat us.
Mass Immortals, I feel, as the largest detriment to mech; and they must be dealt with with a combination of Cloaked Banshees and Ghosts.
We do have a harass capability: Cloaked Banshees, but I recommend harassing in a manner that is used to GAIN GROUND, never send them to the edges of the map or stuff, because the Banshees are key not only for defense, but in the main engagement as well. In fact, I like sending my Vikings forward and just sniping off the Observers, and then having the 5-7 Cloaked Banshees just terran them up...it takes away from the Immortal count, which is really what we want.
Remember to SPAM those Barracks, keep the tank count high, keep a decent Banshee/Viking count, and make lots of Orbitals and sacrifice your SCVs to make more stuff...and most of all, remember to play extremely safe. The game will favor Terran the longer it goes, no need to end it.
I actually prefer to keep most of my tanks unsieged, and using the Banshees to poke and prod, and find out where he'll attack, then sieging up in the right position. Make sure your Barracks wall is ALWAYS down. Only move it when he's a good distance away...because if the chargelots get under it, it's useless.
That's just my thoughts on mech.
Now, it's extremely hard to hold off what Protoss does, you literally have to play perfect...and a bit of a misstep in terms of positioning and you just die. It's ridiculously hard to pull off, so I never even bother.
the main problem is that even if you do all that mass tank is still garbage against all protoss units..
Have you ever tested this out? Food for food, cost for cost, (provided the Barracks wall) mass tanks beats any non-air Protoss composition, with the exception of mass Immortals. But like 5 ghosts fixes that problem.
100 food of chargelot archon will beat 100+ food of +3 tanks, and chargelot archon is much easier to replace than 30+ tanks. when you're not in a maxed position chargelot archon wrecks tanks even worse. you can claim emp will beat it but you don't have the money for ghosts and get vikings and upgrades and take a third and research cloak and reactor and you can't chase archon zealot with tanks anyways so if protoss gets emp'd he can back off and there's literally nothing you can do about it. i played 100+ games of mech tvp at mid-high masters, it does not work well at all.
Just tried the chargelot/archon vs tanks. I dont think you know of the supreme power of tanks in higher counts. 40chargelots/5archons vs 33tanks on an open field. 18 tanks remain. Add something that will prevent the P from reaching the tanks instantly and you will get very very few tank losses, as the tanks are killing themselves becuase of chargelots.
This was tested with +3 mech dmg (no armor) vs +3+3 ground P. P forces a-moved into sieged tanks.
Sidenote: I've played with tanks vs P since beta and rocking some GM P with it. I think it works well.
Cheers Dan
i did 10 archons and 30 chargelots, spread a bit and amove, and toss wins with 3 or so archons left over.
Contribute something or gtfo, this thread is called "How to Mech in TvP", not "Can you" or "Stories of some mid-master players struggles with Mech TvP"
Most people don't get that . . . they keep saying 'mech TvP don't work' because they randomly tried one mech game without any idea on the build order or army composition . . . They don't even bother watching replays in most cases.
This is sad , because mech is clearly an under explored strategy, and some players are already able to get good results with it (lots of people high master/Low gm like me, but even better players like Illusion)
People will say UNEXPLORED cause they don't see people using it.
Avilo pretty much touches on the fact that players HAVE tried it and tried to explore possibilities. However, each new patch, nerfed TvP mech. Seige tank nerf, BFH nerf, Thor buff/re-nerf, EMP nerf, all affect TvP mech directly.
Playing TvP mech is extremely difficult and Protoss counters to mech are extremely easy to execute. Any stargate tech out for the Protoss forces vikings(useless supply) and thors. If you guess wrong(mis-scan) against their composition, you get steam rolled.
To quote Avilo: "it's out of the players hands'."
EDIT: I've tried mech since release and even re-explored it after Day9 did a daily on it. There's just zero flexibility and its incredibly unforgiving in a matchup that already favors Protoss lategame deathball style. I would strongly discourage any beginner players to even think about meching in the matchup. You waste tons of time and don't really learn much of anything in terms of understanding the matchup.
Once again, the thread isn't "Can you Mech in TvP", it is "How to Mech in TvP". If you have nothing to offer in terms of how to use Mech in TvP, then don't comment in this thread. It's really that simply. Goodbye.
On a more positive note, does anyone have any good leads on timings to hit against certain Protoss compositions? We know of a few solid 2 base timings with Thors, what about 3 base timings with Ghosts or 1/1 Battlecruisers?
telling people not to post unless they have something to add, and then not adding anything yourself -.-. gg bro, gg ofc it is possible to win using mech, but that doesnt mean its a sensible plan. its possible to win with PF rushes, but i dont see any threads on that.
You misunderstood my post. I am asking people not to discuss "Can mech work TvP" in a "How to Mech in TvP" thread. Simply make another thread if that's what you want to discuss. I am asking a question to further discussion on how to to Mech TvP.
If there was a thread on "How to PF rush" (lol), it wouldn't help to make posts about how PF rushes aren't viable.
We are past the "Is it viable" discussion, we are here to discuss how one should go about doing it. It's really simple. If you don't wan't to discuss How to Mech TvP, gtfo of the thread please.
You misunderstand my post. People read guides all the time here on TL strategy and they try it out if they want to. Just like a product you buy at the store. I'm just giving my review of the product, this case "TvP mech" out of personal experience. People deserve to hear both sides instead of being deluded they're apart of an "upcoming" trend of mech users in the SC2 world.
This isn't a product. This isn't a guide. This is a discussion on How To Mech. That is, a place where we can discuss how to go about Meching in TvP, not whether someone ought to or not.
If you want to discuss whether or not PvT Mech is 'viable' or not, make a thread for that topic!
EPT
