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So, looking at this I see an all-in that is easy to scout and this is why.
You make a ton of lings to put "pressure on" the problem is in ZvZ, making nothing but lings while your opponent defends with just banes and spines puts him way ahead, he will be droning and be 100% safe with spines + banes. You will then transition into 7-8 roaches and almost pure ling and turn it into a quite honestly weak all-in that if it doesn't work you are far to behind.
If I am wrong here feel free to tell me how, but doing nothing but making lings that you can't do anything with if your opponent has banelings you will be behind as they will be droning. I don't see any recent replays here, this feels very frail and weak, perhaps it will work if you do a lot of damage early on based on your opponent messing up, not you outplaying them it can work.
You also should try to not advertise this as anything but an all-in and stop saying that this will help you improve because it really is not anything different than other all-ins off of 2 base.
I mean absolutely no disrespect in anyway or to be rude at all, this is just what I see with a build like this.
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On February 10 2012 01:49 Kamikiri wrote:
If I am wrong here feel free to tell me how, but doing nothing but making lings that you can't do anything with if your opponent has banelings you will be behind as they will be droning. I don't see any recent replays here, this feels very frail and weak, perhaps it will work if you do a lot of damage early on based on your opponent messing up, not you outplaying them it can work.
You also should try to not advertise this as anything but an all-in and stop saying that this will help you improve because it really is not anything different than other all-ins off of 2 base.
I mean absolutely no disrespect in anyway or to be rude at all, this is just what I see with a build like this.
I've explained numerous times that it's not a simple matter of "Oh he has banelings, I lose." IF the opponent is able to survive the 6minute ling push, he'll be putting his resources/larva into zergling/baneling/spine defense while you drone and transition. Everyone seems to think it's so easy to just build defense and hold this, but it's not so easy in a real game. Also, the defending player has to build defenses, obviously, and you absolutely can come out with a harvester lead after the first ling push.
Also, I've analyzed games in the stream tutorials that are recent - and included replay files from season 3, 4, and 5. You can say it's frail and weak, but I've used this extensively in high master ZvZ and it's a matchup I'm confident in.
As for whether this is an "all-in" like you say, my answer is "Yes, No, and who cares?"
Yes - you can be relentless and continue throwing units in until you win or lose. In some situations, it's actually correct.
No - you can transition into standard macro or another style of timing attack like roach/ling or roach/ling/bane.
Who Cares? - If you do decide NOT to transition, it's likely because your initial attack has done damage and you feel you can win. Sure, it's possible in some games your opponent will defend admirably and be ahead, but you can always have better micro and multitasking - and those are the skills that an active style like this forces you to develop.
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I would like to share my personal experience with this build.
Months ago, I hated ZvZ so much, that I simply refused to play it. I would insta quit all ZvZ.
I then took a lesson with Tang, and learned this build. Since then, at the diamond level, I have a 90% win rate in ZvZ match ups.
I went from being a stubborn defensive macro oriented player who was trying to figure out why I kept dying, to an aggressive player raping my way through 9 minute victories without even having to make a roach. My ling micro has drastically improved, and my understanding of the match up has improved.
It is important to note that this build does not consist of massing 42 lings, binding them to a hot key, and a-moving to your opponents base. As soon as speed finishes, your going to want to be poking out, blocking the enemy ramp from getting a roach wall, picking off his smaller group of lings, taking out banelings as you can, sniping queens, killing drones, etc.....
If he is turtling up and placing spines, try to deny them. If you cant deny them but he's open to a runby, get in his main. Destroy his aspirations of getting a high drone count.
If your lings go to waste, and your unable to do anything with them, then you need to look at your own mechanics. The build is not taking anything away from the opportunity which exists. The only way a player could keep up with your army production would be to do a very similar build. It is unlikely that he is, as most zergs taking a FE intend to drone. Punish them for that.
If they didn't fast expand, then you get to keep them on 1 base for quite a while. In the mean time, your comfortably on 2.
The most troublesome scenario is a 1 base baneling all in. Simply base trade. Do not engage his banelings. Move around them, and to his base. Rally your lings to his base, and you win. The amount of zerglings you made will have a much higher sustainable DPS than the less zerglings he has, plus his banelings. Banelings are great DPS, once.
TLDR: If you enjoy 40 minute roach/festor games, then play on playa! If you enjoy map control, aggression, micro, and a powerful build order open to transitions, then try this build.
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On February 09 2012 08:43 Angel_ wrote:
This actually seems like a good place to ask this:
Why is it that there are only two zerg players I can think of that don't treat thier play as, "I must be as greedy as humanly possible"? Why are there no zerg players that get some drones, and then units, or spend some of thier larva on workers, and some on units, instead of this I SHALL GET 80 DRONES AND THEN MAKE UNITS UNLESS I HAVE TO MAKE UNITS BEFORE HAND? Why are no zerg players just happy at less than 50 for a while and getting more later? And secondly why are there not a lot of zerg players that relentlessly make sure they never have 7 larva at any hatch for more than a few seconds, and just play hyper aggressive all game long. The only one close to that I can think of is....Julyzerg.
And don't answer "Because that's the way that zerg has to play". That's a stupid answer. It's certainly A way to play, but it isn't THE way.
Because if a zerg can get as high a drone count as possible, he can roll over his opponent with a huge economic lead later on, while being aggressive before that point can be stopped easily with some defense.
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Another great guide from tang. People hate on his builds a lot, but I use these at high level as well and am pretty successful with them. Thanks!
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Thanks for the guide Tang. I think the very precise build orders really help lower players with something they can consistently train.
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And this is the reason why I have the SC2 Strategy forum minimized on TL.
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On February 10 2012 03:56 TUski wrote:
And this is the reason why I have the SC2 Strategy forum minimized on TL.
+1
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just lost to this twice in a row on ladder from the same guy. Asked him if he was using the Tang SC guide in game and he confirmed it. I meet him on ladder next game (3 games in a row), pretty much blind counter him by throwing up 2 spines at nat and rushing to blings. He saw I was very aware the third time and he cut the ling production and went on to drone. I just did a counter roach/bling/ling after saturating both my bases.
Basically It's very good on ladder when people are expecting standard builds. How do you win games? Do things your opponents don't expect. I don't get why people are hating on these guides, I for one am very appreciative of these guides from TangSC. They help players that don't know how to do aggressive ZvX builds and show them that we can attack on 2 base as well. People who think it is all-in, i would say it's Semi because you are saturated on 2 base and taking third behind it. Though you won't have a 10 drone lead but you rely on your execution on the attack. and as tang said. drone behind it.
This is a game with many possibilities. Army composition, build orders. execution, etc. can all be done differently. This is just a way to play aggressive if you spot your opponent trying to play greedy when you drone scout.
Thanks for these guides Tang, Keep them up please!
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On February 09 2012 21:14 TheSubtleArt wrote:How did I know this guide was written by Tang from the title? Also isn't it contradictory that you say this: Show nested quote +So many players just do the one base, 14/14 baneling all-in, early pool rushes, or the Destiny style Roach/Ling all-in. Obviously these styles can win you games, but it's very one-dimensional and not likely to help you improve. when this guide, and basically all the other ones you've written, are about a one or 2 base all in?
Hahaha I agree.
Tang, you would get some more positive feedback if you called/admitted that your builds are allin. Building 42 lings when they can defend while using 2/3 of their larva (perhaps less) gives them a 7 drone lead on you. I think this build is a lot better than your others, because ZvZ is a matchup where early game micro is extremely important (im watching masses of ZvZ right now at IEM and they're ending rather quickly), but trying to transition out of it involves the opponent making large mistakes to allow you to get back into the game. You can drone out of this, but you will be behind economically, and then when their drone count starts kicking in, be behind in army too.
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You have a "timing attack" with 42 lings as part of your build?
If the opponent has banelings and half a brain you will be soooo far behind, you can stop any amount of lings with a spine 2 queens and a few banelings, and I'm pretty damn sure most Z players will have those by the 6mn mark.
And your second attack with roach ling will be obliterated by the opponent when he made drones instead of 42 useless lings and now has his own roach warren,
Second fun part is that a mutaling player will have a wall of spines to welcome you, you don't have banelings to break it down, lings are useless vs spines, and 7 roaches is not enough to break it down. Plus if you depart from your base at 9mn you will begin your attack as his mutas pop, you won't have an evo yet and no lair...
Edit : spelling
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On February 10 2012 04:34 NeonFox wrote:
You have a "timing attack" with 42 lings as part of your build?
Yes, I don't always make that many lings (ZvZ is based as much on game sense/feel as it is on specific timings) but in general, I make a lot of zerglings and try to dictate the pace. I've stressed numerous times that you don't have to follow the exact build, you could make less lings or transition into macro instead of another timing attack. However, the attack and follow-through explained in this guide are options that I use frequently because they work well together.
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On February 10 2012 02:05 TangSC wrote:
Everyone seems to think it's so easy to just build defense and hold this, but it's not so easy in a real game. Also, the
Agreed.
I'm in plat with an abysmal win rate in zvz. Actually it's getting better than the 20% from late December (more towards 40% now), but it's where I lose most my games.
The style I would like to play involves early upgrades and heavy roach into roach/hydra/infestor. The problem is that so many of my opponents in platinum pull these rushes (or similar variants) and I'm frequently sent to the drawing boards to come up with an answer of why I can never hold it. Simply put, defending these kinds of rushes is very difficult. The only times I seem to hold are win my opponent executes poorly or I get a lucky baneling shot.
I have a zerg-playing friend I play with quite a bit and he uses a strategy similar to your guide. He masses lings off two base, attacks, and if it doesn't work he transitions into a +1 roach bust and attacks again. He has a 75% win rate in zvz and sits in low masters. I can certainly beat him if I can beat the rushes since my macro and multitasking blow his out of the water, but getting to that point has been almost impossible for me in the last couple months.
One thing that has been working is relentless aggressive with the smaller forces in the early game. Not so much attacking as keeping an eye on their front - at least that way I can keep an eye on their unit composition. I suppose I can take this much away from your guide.
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As much I dont think too much of tang's builds/guides as they seem pretty ladder Bo1 based rather than personal improvement based i will say this in defense of this one.
Before when i was between silver and diamond, the second i learned how good aggression is in ZvZ for
1. Scouting army comp
2. Safely Droning
3. Punishing unsafe greed
it changed my win rate so much vs zergs.
Aggression is very usefull and in ZvZ at lower levels over aggression is MUCH better than under- aggression. Simply put if you can play this build you WILL kill lower players that get improperly timed buildings/overdrone/have bad micro.
Focusing on strategy instead of all ins is good long term but even in masters timings like this with good micro can be really strong and ZvZ is damn complicated so for someone new to ZvZ this is a great starting point.
Also this teaches good micro as ling vs ling bane is a good skill to learn.
Why focus on macro and late game transition when you cant even micro and play a safe early game to set up the midgame? Walk before you crawl
I dont agree with a lot of tang guides but aggression in zvz is really useful and ladder players (myself included) underestimate the power of micro and aggression. To be honest i dont think 75% of my ZvZs even need to get to lair tech due to early game mistakes and aggression lets you capitalize on mistakes. You dont need to play this build EVERY game but zerg "all ins" backed by good control dont always have to be all in.
TLDR: While i would not personally use this build myself, for someone having issues with zvz this can be a great starting point to see the power of aggression as well as the power of micro vs a defensive player. You can play pure aggressive zvz and still win alot, it just depends ALOT on the relative differences in control between you and your opponent. Im willing to bet Nestea/DRG/Losira could roll face using this build against alot of lower tier pro players because of that relative difference in micro.
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Sheth, nestea, drg, etc. do use similar builds. It's definitely strong on ladder where your opponent isn't expecting it, but if you become familiar with the transitions you can use the build in a bo3-5 format as well
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On February 09 2012 08:24 pac.558 wrote:
i don't like the fact that all these stategies are based on your opponent sucking
agree. ZvZ does require a degree of passiveness, moreso the better your opponent is. it's about econ scouting and making the minimum amount of units to be able to do dmg and allow you to drone, pulling an econ lead
the fact that you had to use s3/s4 replays, given the trend of all-ins becoming weaker the longer into sc2's lifespan, speaks a little bit about the overall strength of just relying on timing pushes imo..
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For the 53rd time, thanks Tang for these kind of builds.
I have big troubles playing Zerg (as a Random player), so your builds remove a lot of frustration!
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Isnt it unsafe to have your buildings so spread out against like a 6pool or so? if it's closer to your drones you can push the zerglings away..?
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Small question. Would this build still work if u wanted to throw down a hatch before pool. Or would you not have the gas and speed up fast enough?
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EPT
