[G] Rushing Relentlessly: A Guide to Zerg vs Zerg

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 08 2012 23:06 GMT

[G] Rushing Relentlessly: A Guide to Zerg vs Zerg

Hello Team liquid! I'm very excited to present a strategy guide on my best and favorite matchup: ZvZ.

If you've played or watched any ZvZ, you likely know that it's a fast-paced, explosive matchup – the majority of games end quite early with one or two base play. I'm sure most of us have been involved in those infamous (arguably annoying) zergling/baneling wars, and experienced the excruciating pain after looking away from your army for a split second, only to return to see all your units have died to 1 baneling.

As a result of these silly ling-baneling battles, and the overall dynamic of the matchup, ZvZ just feels flimsy for a lot of players – many describe it as a coinflip or rock/paper/scissors. So many people just do the one base baneling all-ins, early pool rushes, or the Destiny style roach/zergling all-in. Obviously these styles can win you games, but it's very one-dimensional and not likely to help you improve. It will please you to know that this guide will focus on a banelingless style of ZvZ, using well-planned timing attacks to secure map control while you drone and prepare another timing attack. Even if you're a macro player, the most important concept to take away from this guide is droning with map control as opposed to droning blindly.

You can do this by utilizing 3 highly-optimized timing attacks:

5:45 - 22 Speedlings arrive at opponent's expansion
6:00 – 42 Speedlings
9:00 – 8Roach/60+ Timing Attack

You've all probably guessed why I love this matchup: it's my mindset that You cannot be too aggressive in ZvZ. I've never heard a player say “I need to play more passive in ZvZ, I think I'd win more.” No, I want you to be as relentless as possible and if you start losing the occasional game by attacking too much, you should pat yourself on the back and say “That was good, but next time I'll attack more.” Aggression thrives in ZvZ and choosing the right build order and unit composition is an essential first step. In this guide I'll provide the build order, timings, and execution I've used to turn a matchup many consider to be a “flimsy, rock-paper-scissors, coinflip” into a near-lock.

And even if you don't fancy yourself a particularly aggressive player, you'll see that taking the initiative and attacking first can often present you with opportunities to drone and secure advantages.

Reddit Link:

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Reddit: Rushing Relentlessly - Please Upvote!

Four-Part Zerg vs Zerg Stream Tutorial:

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1) The Opening + Ling Push: http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/307938006
2) The Transition + Roach/Ling Push: http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/307940830
3) Transitioning AFTER the roach/ling: http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/307944502#
4) How to hold early pool or 1-Base all-ins: http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/307949263

The Opening Build Order

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Note: Stream Episode 1 analyzes the opening and initial zergling push

This build is a very refined way to optimize zergling count by the 6 minute mark. If you do the build perfectly, you should have 22 Zerglings with speed moving out when speed is done (5:30). This is a crucial window to do damage to your opponent's queens, morphing banelings, vulnerable roaches. The more damage you do, the more likely your follow-up 42 Zerglings at 6:00 will end the game. Often, this massive ling count will be enough to do crippling damage if you think that you've done crippling damage you can continue streaming lings after 42 supply.

15Pool
15Gas (Rally 14th Drone)
17Expansion Hatch
16Queen
18Overlord
@100Gas speed, remove from geyser.
18-21 Zerglings (Queen + 6Lings)
21 Queen (First queen pops, inject and move to expo)
23 Overlord (Optional Spine Crawler)
23-31 Zerglings (First inject goes into all lings, try to hide these from opponent's scouting lings. If you want to macro, you could cut lings here and start droning)
31 Overlord
31-42 Zerglings (Rallied to opponent's expansion)
42+ Drones/Transition OR Commit to a Zergling All-In

The Opening Execution:

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Your initial overlord MUST scout your opponent's expansion by the 4min mark. If he's expanded, you're absolutely going to put on oodles of pressure. I will go over responses to 1-base play in stream episode 4.

Your first queen and 6 lings will hold any 2base 14/14 pressure.

As soon as your speed finishes (~5:30), it's time to move out. You want to take those initial 22 Lings to your opponent's expansion right away. Banelings and roaches are possible at this stage, but in small numbers.

Use 1 ling to pick off individual banelings if you can, 2-3 lings to focus fire morphing banelings. Don't think that because you see zergling, baneling, or roach defense you have to retreat - remember you have a second wave for a total of 42 Lings on the way so don't be afraid to try to surround roaches, pick off banelings, engage in ling on ling battles, and kill queens. Any damage you can do is great. A LOT of games can be won with this first push, and if you feel like you're going to win, just stream lings until you do.

The most important thing while you're attacking is to keep up with queen injects, overlords, and either zergling or drone production. Even though you're microing actively with your lings, you should keep your keyboard hand busy as well – the more multitasking the better.

The Roach/Ling Transition:

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Note: Stream Episode 2 covers the roach/ling transition

At 42 supply, you should have an idea if your lings will be enough to win. If he's spined up and using baneling/queen/ling defense, for example, you'll respond by transitioning into roaches:

A food supply build order becomes irrelevant here, as it depends on how many lings you lose. As a general rule, follow these if you feel like your lings give you map control:

1) Produce 4-8 Drones
2) Refill Gas, Start a warren (Rule of thumb: 6:30-7:00)
3) Produce 2-6 Drones and overlords while warren builds (only build drones if you feel safe, otherwise make lings)
4) Make 6-8 Roaches right when warren finishes, rally point onto roaches and move out, producing zerglings to reinforce.

Keep in mind that you could just build the 6-8 roaches and play defensively to drone up, get an evo chamber, and move into standard mid-game with infestor/roach or muta.

The Roach/Ling Execution:

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I recommend hotkeying the roaches as 2, with lings following the roaches / hatcheries rallied onto the roaches.

If you have the lings following the roaches, you don't have to do excessive ling micro – they'll for the most part engage correctly.

However, it is important to hotkey the lings as 1 so that you can pull them back quickly if you see banelings.

If there's no banelings, A-move and do a bit of focus-firing with roaches onto any spines but don't overdo it.

If there are banelings, let the roaches absorb the banelings then a-move with lings when it's safe.

What if I don't win with Roach/Ling?

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Note: Stream Tutorial 3 covers what to do if the roach/ling fails

This is where individual play-style may vary. You could theoretically continue to stream roaches / lings with all your resources until you win or lose. However, I think it's important to have a point where you stop reinforcing with lings and start producing drones (remember you're not that far from full 2base mineral saturation).

Here is an example of a "desperation mode" transition with a reasonable chance of success:

Step 1: Cut zerglings and go for 38 drones (full 2base mineral saturation, 6 drones mining gas/two geysers)

Step 2: Start a macro hatch

Step 3: Start a 3rd queen

Step 4: Use all your gas on roaches, and use 3queens 3hatch to mass Zerglings rallied to the roaches.

Step 5: Rally hatcheries onto roaches and go for a huge timing attack off 3 hatch.

Step 6: (Optional) Drone up, start a lair a lair, 2 evo chambers, and your last two gas while you push.

Here are a few examples of this transition:
http://drop.sc/163571
http://drop.sc/163572

Holding Early Cheese/Pressure:

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Note: Stream Episode 4 focuses exclusively on holding early cheese/1-base all-ins.

1) If he goes for a 1-Base Ling/Bane All-In (14/14 or so):

Example game: http://drop.sc/163772
Step 1: Scout the expansion by the 4Min Mark.(Ling scout later to see unit composition seeing no expo by 4:00 and lings streaming across the map is a good indication).

Step 2: Build 1-2 spine crawlers in your main after your overlord on 23 Supply. (If you get two, you can leave one in your main and move one down to expansion)

Step 3: Produce nothing but speedlings. (You can actually engage in ling on ling battles, but you'll probably use these to counter attack when he tries to bust)

Step 4: Produce a 3rd queen at your expansion. (Queens and spines are your key defenses for your expo)

Step 5: Transfer 1 Spine down to your expansion, bring your main queen down there too. Optional: Wall ramp with 2 queens with spine in range. (Since you build a 3rd queen and a spine, you don't need to be injecting your main constantly – you wont have minerals to use that much larva, so all 3 queens can be at your expansion)

Step 6: (Optional/Situational) Counter-attack with your speedlings, use your queens/reinforcing lings/spines to defend the pressure.

2) If he goes for a roach or roach/ling 1-Base All-In:

Step 1: Scout the expansion by the 4 Min Mark. (Ling scout later to see unit composition).

Step 2: Laugh internally, because you've already won. You should have a big grin on your face when you see 1 base roaches.

Step 3: Build 1 Spine Crawler in your main at 23, similar to the 1-base baneling style.

Step 4: Produce nothing but speedlings.

Step 5: Transfer the spine down to your expansion.

Step 6: Use your enormous speedling count and a-move into his army when he's near your spine.

Step 7: Execute your usual ling timing attack.

3) If he hits you with an early-pool:

Step 1: Scout the lings coming to your base with overlords.

Step 2: Start a spine, queen, and 2 sets of lings right away.

Step 3: PULL AWAY your drones. Don't panic and a-move, just patiently wait for some zerglings to pop.

Step 4: Engage with 4 zerglings and 14-16 Drones.

Step 5: Reposition your spine, continue producing lings with any minerals, and use all you have to kill his units and spine.

Step 6: Get that 16 drone saturation, 2 queens, and an expansion. Move into the usual ling timing attack.

Game Sample/Style Overview:

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For all you visual learners...
Game One vs Ruby: (2Base Baneling Counter-attack)
http://drop.sc/107050

Game Overview: Opponent expands and opens with zergling/baneling. My initial ling/baneling timing attack is able to do damage, but he quickly responds with a 2base ling/bane counter. Rather than engaging at my natural, I counter attack with my lings and use my roach/ling reinforcements to clean up his timing attack. Once my base is safe, I move out with my roaches, rally my lings, and execute a game-ending Roach/Ling timing.

1) 15Pool:

2) 15 Gas:

3) 17 Hatchery:

4) 16 Queen:

5) 17 Overlord:

6) At 100 Gas, remove drones from geyser and start speed:

7) Notice, 16 Drones mining 2 per patch in main (Ideal Saturation):

8) Start 6xLings right when overlord finishes on 18:

9) Queen pops, inject and move to expansion. Start 2nd queen on 21, then overlord on 23:

10) If you don't know what your opponent is doing, build a defensive spine on 23:

11) Use first larva inject to produce a lot of lings. At 5:00, 2nd queen finishes and it's time to double-inject:

12) Queen and 6 lings easily hold scouting/harassing zerglings off a 13-15Pool:

13) When in doubt, ling scout – make sure to see know whether he's expanding and hopefully whether he has roach, banelings, and/or a lot of zerglings:

14) Position spine at expansion to defend counters, move out and set rally:

15) Engage the front, drone with map control:

16) Build as many drones as feel safe to (usually 6-10), refill gas and start a warren by 6:30:

17) Use spines and lings to defend zergling counter-attack:

18) Seeing him morphing banelings, counter-attack instead of engaging ling vs bane:

19) Start building roaches and lings to help defend your main from his attack:

20) Prioritize killing workers and queens with zergling runbys:

21) Continue producing units to clean up his push while microing lings around to kill drones:

22) Eventually your reinforcements will clean up his attack and you can prepare your counter-attack:

23)Set rally onto roaches, push out and produce speedlings to reinforce:

24) Reinforcing lings can be used to defend counter-attacks:

25) Roaches arrive, opponent departs.

More Replays:

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Discussion Questions

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1) Can you think of some other viable transitions after either the zergling opening or the roach/ling timing?

2) What makes this build different from other "one-dimensional" 14/14 baneling all-ins, early pool rushes, or the Destiny style Roach/Ling all-in?

3) How can a player optimally defend this?

4) Could the build be used in other matchups?

Guide Feedback:

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I've included a poll to help me learn from my mistakes and produce better content. Please contribute any feedback so that I can improve the quality of future guides:

Poll: How helpful is this guide (1-5) Please post reasoning in comments!

5 - Excellent Guide, concise information, extremely helpful (114)

64%

4 - Solid Guide, good analysis, pretty helpful (29)

16%

1 - There is nothing to be learned from you, Tang. You're ruining eSports. (17)

10%

3- Average Guide, probably going to help some people. (12)

7%

2 - Some helpful material, but overall not very informative (5)

3%

177 total votes

Your vote: How helpful is this guide (1-5) Please post reasoning in comments!

(Vote): 5 - Excellent Guide, concise information, extremely helpful
(Vote): 4 - Solid Guide, good analysis, pretty helpful
(Vote): 3- Average Guide, probably going to help some people.
(Vote): 2 - Some helpful material, but overall not very informative
(Vote): 1 - There is nothing to be learned from you, Tang. You're ruining eSports.

Thank you all for taking the time to read this guide, if you have any questions/comments please post them!

- Tang

Courtesy of www.TangStarcraft.com

tQGordok

Canada4 Posts

February 08 2012 23:17 GMT

Looks Awesome Tang!

peonsc2

Canada9 Posts

February 08 2012 23:18 GMT

really good guide i'm gonna go use it on ladder right now. i usually have the same style of counter attacking vs baneling all ins, but i never thought of following it up with roach timing.

pac.558

Canada90 Posts

February 08 2012 23:24 GMT

i don't like the fact that all these stategies are based on your opponent sucking

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 08 2012 23:26 GMT

On February 09 2012 08:24 pac.558 wrote:
i don't like the fact that all these stategies are based on your opponent sucking

That's a bit of a silly comment, considering the replays are all against top-notch master/GM players. This is not a build that can easily be stopped, assuming your execution is solid.

Depetrify

978 Posts

February 08 2012 23:30 GMT

On February 09 2012 08:24 pac.558 wrote:
i don't like the fact that all these stategies are based on your opponent sucking

I agree with this. Zerg isn't suppose to be played this way. And most of those people aren't that great, your MMR isn't very high.

It might work often because people don't expect an aggressive zerg.

iAmJeffReY

United States4262 Posts

February 08 2012 23:31 GMT

Is there a reason every single replay is like over 100 days old?

Yang - 230 days
computer - 293 days
raine - 97 days
goswer - 223 days
dhalism - 231 days
blackmamba - 170 days
dice - 107 days
darkchigo - 163 days
fitzy - 98 days

So which ones did you say are recent? That's top bottom and middle?

I think ZvZ is about the only matchup that you can have a high win rate in playing a style like this.

Depetrify

978 Posts

February 08 2012 23:33 GMT

On February 09 2012 08:31 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Is there a reason every single replay is like over 100 days old?

I think ZvZ is about the only matchup that you can have a high win rate in playing a style like this.

Tang is one of those players that's scared to play the game.

(I mean this in the least offensive way possible)

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 08 2012 23:33 GMT

On February 09 2012 08:30 Depetrify wrote:

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I agree with this. Zerg isn't suppose to be played this way. And most of those people aren't that great, your MMR isn't very high.

It might work often because people don't expect an aggressive zerg.

The first game is against Sheth! One of the best zerg players in SC2 lol. You're entitled to your own opinion about "how zerg is supposed to be played," but SC2 is not so black-and-white.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 08 2012 23:34 GMT

#10

I've uploaded more recent replays (season 5-7), and the stream episodes are mostly from this season.

Depetrify

978 Posts

February 08 2012 23:35 GMT

#11

On February 09 2012 08:33 TangSC wrote:

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The first game is against Sheth! One of the best zerg players in SC2 lol. You're entitled to your own opinion about "how zerg is supposed to be played," but SC2 is not so black-and-white.

I just think you should stop teaching people how to "play" the metagame.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 08 2012 23:37 GMT

#12

On February 09 2012 08:35 Depetrify wrote:

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I just think you should stop teaching people how to "play" the metagame.

And I think you should be more open minded to styles that you haven't experimented with at all!

Parodoxx

United States549 Posts

February 08 2012 23:38 GMT

#13

On February 09 2012 08:24 pac.558 wrote:
i don't like the fact that all these stategies are based on your opponent sucking

Watched this exact build beat stephano on stream today.
The funny thing was the player said he learned the build from stephano who then said he learned it from Nestea.
If you feel this timing only beats bad players your an idiot especially when the build is being posted by a pro.

Thanks Tang

Depetrify

978 Posts

February 08 2012 23:38 GMT

#14

On February 09 2012 08:37 TangSC wrote:

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And I think you should be more open minded to styles that you haven't experimented with at all!

No, there is nothing to argue about. This is one of those things that if the opponent knows is coming it can be easily stopped. There is not much micro to be done with roach/ling/bane (depending on how they try to stop it). I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just stating that its gimmicky play and I'd rather you be doing solid guides.

Oreo7

United States1647 Posts

February 08 2012 23:41 GMT

#15

Isn't this a very one dimensional build that is built around hoping your opponent doesn't know how to stop it?

edit: I only say this because in the op you say that's exactly what you're trying to avoid, and yet it seems like what this is is a very strong aggressive attack that if stopped puts you far behind. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Djeez

543 Posts

February 08 2012 23:41 GMT

#16

The fact that all those guides are super viable really makes me lose faith in Starcraft 2 as a competitive game.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 08 2012 23:42 GMT

#17

On February 09 2012 08:38 Depetrify wrote:

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No, there is nothing to argue about. This is one of those things that if the opponent knows is coming it can be easily stopped. There is not much micro to be done with roach/ling/bane. I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just stating that its gimmicky play and I'd rather you be doing solid guides.

Well your opinion is appreciated, and I'm sure many others share it: Solid, defensive zerg has been the standard for a long time and it works very well. But if you watch zerg players like Sen, nestea, drg, sheth, and stephano, you will not see 100% standard/solid builds - you will see roach/ling timings, roach/ling/baneling all-ins, early timing attacks and well-planned transitions. This is the style of zerg I have personally had the most fun and success with, and it's the style I encourage others to use too!

Angel_

United States1617 Posts

February 08 2012 23:43 GMT

#18

This actually seems like a good place to ask this:

Why is it that there are only two zerg players I can think of that don't treat thier play as, "I must be as greedy as humanly possible"? Why are there no zerg players that get some drones, and then units, or spend some of thier larva on workers, and some on units, instead of this I SHALL GET 80 DRONES AND THEN MAKE UNITS UNLESS I HAVE TO MAKE UNITS BEFORE HAND? Why are no zerg players just happy at less than 50 for a while and getting more later? And secondly why are there not a lot of zerg players that relentlessly make sure they never have 7 larva at any hatch for more than a few seconds, and just play hyper aggressive all game long. The only one close to that I can think of is....Julyzerg.

And don't answer "Because that's the way that zerg has to play". That's a stupid answer. It's certainly A way to play, but it isn't THE way.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 08 2012 23:44 GMT

#19

On February 09 2012 08:41 Oreo7 wrote:
Isn't this a very one dimensional build that is built around hoping your opponent doesn't know how to stop it?

edit: I only say this because in the op you say that's exactly what you're trying to avoid, and yet it seems like what this is is a very strong aggressive attack that if stopped puts you far behind. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Totally understand that perspective, it seems like if the attacks don't work you're behind. However, the focus isn't necessarily on attacking and winning - it's on using map control to drone, and planning another timing attack in response to what they do.

For instance: You open mass ling, your opponent goes zergling/baneling to defend. While he's pulled back in his base trying not to die to your 42 Speedlings, you're droning up and preparing the counter to baneling defense - a roach ling timing attack.

lindn

Sweden833 Posts

February 08 2012 23:51 GMT

#20

Oh look, another all in guide from the infamous Tang.

Standard stuff as usual.

User was warned for this post

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 08 2012 23:53 GMT

#21

On February 09 2012 08:51 lindn wrote:
Oh look, another all in guide from the infamous Tang.

Standard stuff as usual.

In theory, you can transition after the first ling push - or the roach ling for the matter - into whichever macro style you like. It's my personal preference to continue attacking, but that's just my play style. I'm sure there will be players who prefer to transition into standard play.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 08 2012 23:59 GMT

#22

Edited the OP to mention that if you want, you can just use the opening and cut zerglings at 31 supply to transition into whatever macro build you want. You don't have to go for the 42 Zergling timing attack or the followup roach/ling timing attack - BUT I strongly recommend it!

NoisyNinja

United States991 Posts

February 09 2012 00:07 GMT

#23

Voted 5. I hate ZvZ because it is a diceroll and it is such a simple concept of forcing your opponent to make units while droning up and staying alive yourself.

Br3ezy

United States720 Posts

February 09 2012 00:08 GMT

#24

On February 09 2012 08:26 TangSC wrote:

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That's a bit of a silly comment, considering the replays are all against top-notch master/GM players. This is not a build that can easily be stopped, assuming your execution is solid.

never heard of like any of the players in the replays. Also by top-notch, do you mean top tier or just respectable players because theres a big difference between the two

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 09 2012 00:11 GMT

#25

On February 09 2012 09:08 Br3ezy wrote:

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never heard of like any of the players in the replays. Also by top-notch, do you mean top tier or just respectable players because theres a big difference between the two

Raine, ZelNiq, bellini, ppgbubbles, goswer and DarkChigo are very competitive players. Almost all of those replays are against top-8 masters to GM. I've also beat Sheth, Idra, and Catz with this style. Stephano and Strifecro are the only two I can think of who shut me down game after game in ZvZ.

robaq

Poland186 Posts

February 09 2012 00:13 GMT

#26

On February 09 2012 08:43 Angel_ wrote:
This actually seems like a good place to ask this:

Why is it that there are only two zerg players I can think of that don't treat thier play as, "I must be as greedy as humanly possible"? Why are there no zerg players that get some drones, and then units, or spend some of thier larva on workers, and some on units, instead of this I SHALL GET 80 DRONES AND THEN MAKE UNITS UNLESS I HAVE TO MAKE UNITS BEFORE HAND? Why are no zerg players just happy at less than 50 for a while and getting more later? And secondly why are there not a lot of zerg players that relentlessly make sure they never have 7 larva at any hatch for more than a few seconds, and just play hyper aggressive all game long. The only one close to that I can think of is....Julyzerg.

And don't answer "Because that's the way that zerg has to play". That's a stupid answer. It's certainly A way to play, but it isn't THE way.

I think it is because its the most simple way to understand the game. If you lose and do not have the optimal number of workers you'd lose because you had not enough workers. Of course, the game could be won by better decision making and engagements, but the first thing coming my mind would be always "I just had not enough stuff".

Depetrify

978 Posts

February 09 2012 00:17 GMT

#27

On February 09 2012 08:53 TangSC wrote:

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Take into account the travel distance and they can have more drones while being safe. gg

aidip

United States5 Posts

February 09 2012 00:19 GMT

#28

Love the aggression! no such thing as all in for ZvZ!

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 09 2012 00:20 GMT

#29

On February 09 2012 09:17 Depetrify wrote:

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Take into account the travel distance and they can have more drones while being safe. gg

Sure, if you want to over-simplify things and focus only on the negative lol you could also say you're guaranteed to gain map control, do damage, and potentially even end the game. I mean sure there's always the chance you'll mess up and run a ling into a bunch of banelings and end up a bit behind, but for the most part there are a lot of advantages to having zerglings out on the field early, especially because you're SO safe to all-ins. Also, what I like most about the admittedly low-econ transition in the guide is that if you're planning to go for a roach/ling attack later, those extra lings you built aren't just dead money, they're part of your timing attack.

I think if you tried it a couple times, you'd find you can do anything you want after the opening pressure - and you might like the advantages of an aggressive opening more than you'd think, even if your goal is to go muta or upgraded roaches after.

jinorazi

Korea (South)4948 Posts

February 09 2012 00:26 GMT

#30

what do you do against a player defending with banes? i assume stay passive and tech/expand? send small groups to take down banes first?

i've faced mass ling while i try to tech to roach it has caused me to prepare with bane/spine at choke in case of mass ling flooding in.

for me, it seems mass ling has its timing but it becomes very less potent when the opponent is ready to reflect any ling attack with a hand full of banes waiting behind crawlers. (it wont take care of all lings but enough for newly hatched units/reinforcement to clean up)

excuse my ignorance, i'm just speaking from my limited experience.

Korpseflower

United States12 Posts

February 09 2012 00:30 GMT

#31

As a high master zerg from NA I can assure anyone reading this, that this strategy is by all means, all in. 42 speedlings that early on? I would simply make 6 banelings, and some lings while keeping my HUGE drone advantage. From there, tech to roach with my superior economy or make a couple spines and transition to muta. If you want to learn how to play the matchup this is one way NOT to learn.

Depetrify

978 Posts

February 09 2012 00:31 GMT

#32

On February 09 2012 09:20 TangSC wrote:

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Lol. You really don't understand ZvZ. Its all about how many drones you can get while living. The person defending will have a few more, THEN HE CAN TURN THE AGGRESSION BACK AT YOU WITH BETTER ECONOMY.

You're expecting them just to never attack? While you take risks and mass drone?

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 09 2012 00:37 GMT

#33

On February 09 2012 09:30 Korpseflower wrote:
As a high master zerg from NA I can assure anyone reading this, that this strategy is by all means, all in. 42 speedlings that early on? I would simply make 6 banelings, and some lings while keeping my HUGE drone advantage. From there, tech to roach with my superior economy or make a couple spines and transition to muta. If you want to learn how to play the matchup this is one way NOT to learn.

Banelings are obviously great against zerglings, but you strongly underestimate good zergling micro and this style as a whole. Don't judge until you've faced it please, it's not as easy as "build 6 banelings and win." Watch the stream videos, there are games against players who open 6 banelings and other defensive styles.

Majromax

Canada14 Posts

February 09 2012 00:41 GMT

#34

Because that's the way Zerg has to play. *rimshot*

I'm actually serious here. Zerg is weird in that its unit production is in direct opposition to drone production. A unit now means that is one less drone now, which means fewer minerals for later. More so than any other race, having more units later means building drones now. There's no consolation for prize for having the biggest army that still dies to a push; the only good reason (for any race) to sit at <50 workers is because the minerals need to be spent in order to not die now.

The same kind of thinking applies to larva at hatcheries. A larva sitting there is one that isn't turning into a drone or unit; it's the Zerg equivalent of an empty production queue.

Your middle path -- mixing drones and units -- has been tried by pretty much every silver-league Zerg ever. It's a great way to live to the midgame, then promptly die due to a lack of stuff.

NL.Anonymous

Netherlands50 Posts

February 09 2012 00:43 GMT

#35

Hey there TangSC
First of all props for putting time into making a build to let people try other things. Despite all the negative comments you are getting, you are just enriching the community with another style of gameplay we can try out again.

I don't think I have the right or the knowledge yet to speak if this would work, since I didn't try it out yet. I do think when executed well this build will really work. And for the people that are like: make banes insta win... You should watch some Korea GM people playing. Micro is the word.

Thanks alot +5!

Whias_k

36 Posts

February 09 2012 00:43 GMT

#36

It's disgusting the amount of people who bash Tang, it's a great guide sure i wouldn't call it perfect or groundbreaking but it seems solid and well explained, replays are old and newer one would be nice but really not that important.

I know it's fun for some people to use the no attack the first 20min rule but some of us do like to mix it up.

Stop bashing and give some useful criticism!!

fighter2_40

United States420 Posts

February 09 2012 00:46 GMT

#37

On February 09 2012 09:41 Majromax wrote:

Show nested quote +

Because the benefit of a lot of workers early is not proportional to the benefit from making half as many. Same goes for army.

emc

United States3088 Posts

February 09 2012 00:47 GMT

#38

Sweet guide. Whats with the hate? Seriously, you can play a defensive style if you want, I think this is it's own build just like any other ZvZ build out there.

If you want to learn a safe Zerg style, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. There are other threads and VODs out there that teach you how to play like that. I think Tang is doing us all a service by showing the aggressive options.

TibblesEvilCat

United Kingdom766 Posts

February 09 2012 00:59 GMT

#39

these replays are annoying, can i have some that are in this patch?

statikg

Canada930 Posts

February 09 2012 00:59 GMT

#40

Tang is a top masters player, how many top masters are there on the strategy forum on a regular basis? ill give you a hint, its probably less then 5 per race. Scrubs will keep on bashing though.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 09 2012 01:03 GMT

#41

On February 09 2012 09:59 TibblesEvilCat wrote:
these replays are annoying, can i have some that are in this patch?

http://drop.sc/107399
http://drop.sc/107400
http://drop.sc/107402

Moosegills

United States558 Posts

February 09 2012 01:13 GMT

#42

But, but, banelings.

CHOBRO

Australia1 Post

February 09 2012 01:30 GMT

#43

Thanks Tang for a well written and crisp build order.

For those calling this an "all-in" lame strategy I have to disagree, you do not understand the ZvZ matchup. This build is not "easily countered" because it is practically impossible to tell if a player is droning or making lings. This build does not "pool" units, they spawn simultaneously through injects and span the map extremely quickly with metabolic boost, defenders advantage is almost non-existent.

If you drone against this build, you die. If you make lings against this build you are economically equal. If you go half and half you are just gimping yourself against an opponent that droned. This build will still likely grant you equal drones after the pressure wears off due to "droning behind the attack." ZvZ is not ZvT...

Korpseflower

United States12 Posts

February 09 2012 01:33 GMT

#44

On February 09 2012 09:37 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

Just as you say I underestimate good zergling micro, you seem to be underestimating good baneling control. I have faced it on the ladder before, and sure, you can win if you catch someone off guard. But for the people that understand the matchup, holding this all in is not that hard. I'm not trying to bash you here, but I want the sc2 community to grow as a whole in terms of skill and teaching people how to all in and saying it's NOT all in is detrimental to the lower level players.

Swagtacular

United States101 Posts

February 09 2012 01:36 GMT

#45

hey tang,

im one of fritzyhere's friends so ive been trying pretty much the same build
its great

but
how do you hold like 1313gaspool just mass ling (only mining 100 gas)- - i dont think i saw it under early pressure
no banes but hits just when you throw down your expo. i try making 1 spine and lings when i see whats happening, but a bunch of speedlings take care of it. how do you hold without banes or roaches without losing too many drones?

Korpseflower

United States12 Posts

February 09 2012 01:37 GMT

#46

On February 09 2012 10:30 CHOBRO wrote:
Thanks Tang for a well written and crisp build order.

For those calling this an "all-in" lame strategy I have to disagree, you do not understand the ZvZ matchup. This build is not "easily countered" because it is practically impossible to tell if a player is droning or making lings. This build does not "pool" units, they spawn simultaneously through injects and span the map extremely quickly with metabolic boost, defenders advantage is almost non-existent.

If you drone against this build, you die. If you make lings against this build you are economically equal. If you go half and half you are just gimping yourself against an opponent that droned. This build will still likely grant you equal drones after the pressure wears off due to "droning behind the attack." ZvZ is not ZvT...

Sorry you don't seem to understand zerg as a race. In sc2, the defender always has the advantage. This is especially true in early game ZvZ. It's quite clear you are a lower league player when you say it's practically impossible to tell if a player is droning or making units. Zergs need to scout, all you have to do is send a couple of lings into their base to see if they are droning or making units. Look at the post above to see the logic behind why drones early is more important than early units.

If you guys want a real build order that is aggressive but has a smooth macro game transition I'll post one of my own ZvZ builds.

KookyMonster

United States311 Posts

February 09 2012 01:42 GMT

#47

Seemed interesting. While it may not be an "all in", it definitely makes some assumptions, and is extremely risky. If you are just better than your opponent, then it'll be fine. It just is crucial that the strategy-user scouts non-stop (and maybe prays some). Still an interesting read, though.

NL.Anonymous

Netherlands50 Posts

February 09 2012 01:42 GMT

#48

Bring it on Korpseflower

I like to restate the fact that there is not A BO that is THE best build order. The best build order for YOU is the order that suits YOUR playstyle.

KimJongChill

United States6429 Posts

February 09 2012 01:49 GMT

#49

Definitely looks better than my standard 7 pool haha.

birdkicker

United States752 Posts

February 09 2012 01:51 GMT

#50

I dont understand how you can be agressive on both the first and second timing attacks if the defender has banelings, since although you add in a few roaches in the second push, the majority is still speedlings. One thing that I have done, is getting a baneling nest in the beginning so i can morph a few banelings with my extra gas in front of their natural while I wait for my roaches to catch up.

TibblesEvilCat

United Kingdom766 Posts

February 09 2012 02:01 GMT

#51

nee, what sentivty settings you using? cause ur like a machine :/

oOOoOphidian

United States1402 Posts

February 09 2012 02:21 GMT

#52

People who do these strategies are a free win on ladder, provided you are using good builds and can scout. On some maps they are definitely more powerful, but even then if your strategy is to make 40-50 lings as the bulk of your army you better hope your opponent has no banelings and no +1 roaches. If your opponent really sucks at scouting and is saving for mutas/infestors you can hit a timing, but if they see you coming and just make stuff you won't do any damage.

To be frank, 1 base ling/baneling all-inning is going to be a lot more successful and only requires minimal micro in comparison. These delayed all-ins are a complete coinflip.

coriamon

244 Posts

February 09 2012 02:38 GMT

#53

On February 09 2012 09:46 fighter2_40 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Because the benefit of a lot of workers early is not proportional to the benefit from making half as many. Same goes for army.

Untrue. You both drone to 16. He continues to drone. You build 20 lings and kill all of his drones.
You cannot say that there isn't a reason to build an army early. That is just not logical. Your army pays off by killing units. Your drones pay off by being able to build army.

CapnAmerica

United States508 Posts

February 09 2012 02:58 GMT

#54

On February 09 2012 10:03 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

http://drop.sc/107399
http://drop.sc/107400
http://drop.sc/107402

First Game:

Excellent replay showing the strength of the speedling pressure, although he didn't have very good baneling micro and also let your speedlings straight into your main to kill stuff, sealing his fate.

Second Game:

He held off your first attack easily, garnering a huge lead. He then decides to go Mutalisks for no good reason without being in the right position for it and proceeds to lose the game due to poor Mutalisk control and you just being better than him at ZvZ. The first rush was detrimental to you, the second did heavy damage because he didn't make Roaches as he should've after holding off all your speedlings so effectively.

Third Game:

Early Ling/Baneling micro puts you far ahead (well done, here) and when you finally do attack him with roaches you're already ahead by a large margin. He uproots his Spine Crawlers at the worst possible moment and takes heavy damage, but after this he has the units to counter-attack and tip the game's balance back in his favor (he doesn't do this) and your drones proceed to win you the game with a roach bust against his mutalisk play.

----

All in all, I feel that you're just showing off that you have good micro, not that this build is particularly good. However, I do like pure speedling plays into roaches simply because they reward you if you trade well with banelings. The playstyle isn't especially stable, but practicing this build can give you skills that are hugely rewarding in higher level games.

On February 09 2012 10:30 CHOBRO wrote:
If you drone against this build, you die. If you make lings against this build you are economically equal. If you go half and half you are just gimping yourself against an opponent that droned. This build will still likely grant you equal drones after the pressure wears off due to "droning behind the attack." ZvZ is not ZvT...

You act like scouting doesn't exist in ZvZ. Overlords and Speedlings are all you need. That's the real difference between super good players and the regular ones, like us. We don't scout as well, and it makes us more susceptible to all-ins.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 09 2012 03:01 GMT

#55

On February 09 2012 11:58 CapnAmerica wrote:

Show nested quote +

The playstyle isn't especially stable, but practicing this build can give you skills that are hugely rewarding in higher level games.

Not many ZvZ builds are especially stable, unfortunately. Just a product of the matchup.

Danglars

United States12133 Posts

February 09 2012 03:15 GMT

#56

Best and favorite matchup for you? A play style revolving around

2 highly-optimized timing attacks:

6Min – 42 Speedling Timing Attack
9Min – 7Roach/50+Ling Push

Uhh. Knowledge and optimization of 2 timing attacks in a matchup makes it your best matchup for you? So confused!

Nice prep work on if roach/ling fails and breakdown of early cheese (Haha! It's ZvZ! Ofc it aint cheese, it's just playing the matchup! Okay, just joking). Macro hatch and third queen with good saturation is sublime.

Depravity

67 Posts

February 09 2012 03:18 GMT

#57

On February 09 2012 08:26 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

That's a bit of a silly comment, considering the replays are all against top-notch master/GM players. This is not a build that can easily be stopped, assuming your execution is solid.

I'm not gonna criticize about how false that statement was ^
But in these people were top-notch master/GM players - then they should be demoted

Because what you're trying to say SOUNDS good - but actually does not work well in REAL execution -
Maybe i'm wrong - But i'm a Top 50 1v1 master vsing Top 25 - And i'd love to show you my replay of your build.

You can't play Passsive and win against zvz - unless both players are passive

Or unless The other guy ALL ins - and you defend it- and you play passive instead of counter killing him

But all in all - These guys aren't near GM/ Top-notch master players

Like many of the people have already stated -

6xFPCs

United States412 Posts

February 09 2012 03:59 GMT

#58

On February 09 2012 11:21 oOOoOphidian wrote:
People who do these strategies are a free win on ladder, provided you are using good builds and can scout. On some maps they are definitely more powerful, but even then if your strategy is to make 40-50 lings as the bulk of your army you better hope your opponent has no banelings and no +1 roaches. If your opponent really sucks at scouting and is saving for mutas/infestors you can hit a timing, but if they see you coming and just make stuff you won't do any damage.

To be frank, 1 base ling/baneling all-inning is going to be a lot more successful and only requires minimal micro in comparison. These delayed all-ins are a complete coinflip.

For the purposes of this post, I am giving tang the benefit of the doubt on his belief that 40 lings can out-micro a defensive bling build with regularity.

ophidian, do you see both defensive bling and fast +1 roach holding this? I have a feeling that there won't be enough roaches to hold the natural, only enough to plug the ramp--in which case, losing your natural is a foregone conclusion, right?

Tang, I think +1 roaches are in fact one of the things you haven't covered. I like to hear what you think of a defensive roach into +1 roach timing (can it defend the 40ish lings?), as well as fast +1 roach (does +1 kick in early enough?).

oOOoOphidian

United States1402 Posts

February 09 2012 04:09 GMT

#59

On February 09 2012 12:59 6xFPCs wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm talking about 2 base in both cases. I said what I said because people play like this a lot and it's very easy to deal with provided you scout and react. The fact that other popular styles like roach/baneling or +1 roach attacks counter the styles suggested in this thread also don't bode well for people who wish to try them. Yes, they're strong all-ins, but there are better ones that don't rely on your opponent playing poorly and can transition a lot better.

Bagration

United States18282 Posts

February 09 2012 04:16 GMT

#60

Learning to be aggressive is a good thing, but it is important to mix up the play between early aggression and macro-oriented games. These guides can be useful, but you can't overrely on these strategies.

Bippzy

United States1466 Posts

February 09 2012 04:19 GMT

#61

On February 09 2012 08:41 Djeez wrote:
The fact that all those guides are super viable really makes me lose faith in Starcraft 2 as a competitive game.

Oh chill. It's a cool aggressive style that is really good vs people that don't have experience vs it or good knowledge of ZvZ. Tang should make you have faith in SC2 because someone can go on the ladder with the goal of killing people with cool tactics early(terran TLO style with zerg, really) and figure out things that work a lot. I mean what if tang invented the roach bane bust that leenock did so much in the GSL? Hate on that too?

On topic: I prefer to do the quick 4 bane opener, it's really fun for me and can neuter the eco and I'm safe from counters with good micro. From there, I like to go roach and then infestor or queen/infestor if the opponent goes roach or muta. This just isn't my style but it could be some fun if I was looking to take down a tourney and I got into like a bo5 vs another zerg.

TY tang! :D

ETisME

12309 Posts

February 09 2012 04:48 GMT

#62

On February 09 2012 10:30 CHOBRO wrote:
Thanks Tang for a well written and crisp build order.
it is practically impossible to tell if a player is droning or making lings.

this is so untrue. You always need to run by a ling every so often to check the gas and the tech he is going for anyway. how can you not know whether he is droning or making lings. Or you could park an overlord if there is deadspace behind his mineral line of the natural, surely you can see how many drones are coming out.

Yoshi Kirishima

United States10293 Posts

February 09 2012 05:00 GMT

#63

ha you should have called it "rush recklessly" like the yugioh card

anyways thanks for sharing this guide, the zergling picture at the top is sick too

courtpanda

866 Posts

February 09 2012 05:08 GMT

#64

i dont like this style.

it seems like a coinflip to me. IMO zerg should be played reactively. its not just about aggression, its about aggression at the right times.

instead of just saying "ill attack at XX time", it should be "if X then Y". "if he invested in spines, ill make more drones for an economic advantage"
"if he has banelings, then ill get roaches to defend"
"if he has 3 banelings only for defense, ill make 10 roaches and kill him"
etc.

RodrigoX

United States645 Posts

February 09 2012 05:28 GMT

#65

Look at everybody in this thread... It's a guide to an allin. A strong all-in but an all-in. Yes, an all in sort of relies on your opponent not knowing how to stop it, but how you stop it, might be very hard and only a certain number of opening build orders are able to do it. Hence making it strong. He is not telling you how to win everygame you ever play under every circumstance ever. He is just showing an all-in that works well in a matchup, because who-knows, a lot of reasons. People don't know how to stop it, current openings just suck against it.

It's just an allin in a matchup where it pays to be aggressive. Chill out.

6xFPCs

United States412 Posts

February 09 2012 05:58 GMT

#66

On February 09 2012 13:09 oOOoOphidian wrote:

Show nested quote +

Right, we're definitely talking about two-base scenarios in all cases. I'm mostly curious to see if a roach defense could be a more reliable (read: non-micro) way to defend against this kind of mass ling attack, but I suspect there's no way to protect both your ramp and your natural. It sounds like you're saying that anything short of fast tech will hold this if you scout it and prepare, I'm just curious about specifics in the roach case.

Plus, Tang seems serious about being able to beat a defensive baneling build. Hoping to hear his opinion, too, but at this point I may as well just go test it myself.

-VoidRay-

57 Posts

February 09 2012 05:59 GMT

#67

I think RodrigoX is right. A lot of Tang's builds point out flaws in the current meta-game which then people call them "all-ins." Most of his builds work because they attack an opponent when they are off guard in a normal game. (Normal meaning obeying by the current meta-game more or less.) That is why Tang is so inavative, he is a player that really understands how to exploit weaknesses! If every game you played you say an opportunity to kill your opponent, you would do it no matter what time it was at on the in game clock. This is precisely what Tang looks for, "opportunities!"

Good job Tang and this is one thorough guide!!!

Iksf

United Kingdom444 Posts

February 09 2012 06:04 GMT

#68

Just relying on exploiting the metagame is just really shaky play though imo. Id have no problem with an aggressive player who often chooses all in play when they scout a riskier build or something they think they can punish, but that you can get so high on ladder just by saying, "oh im going to make 7 roaches and 50 lings before 9 mins every ZvZ because a large amount of people are too bad to stop it" is kind of depressing.

Arisen

United States2382 Posts

February 09 2012 07:08 GMT

#69

On February 09 2012 08:06 TangSC wrote:
You cannot be too aggressive in ZvZ. I've never heard a player say “I need to play more passive in ZvZ, I think I'd win more.”

Wile like I said in your other guide that aggressive play is great for learning, aggressive early game play shouldn't ever work in ZvZ. There are a lot of players who do approach the early game with a very passive style. IdrA for example. The most optimal way to play in theory is to absorb someone elses attack with a few drones more than him, using the defenders advantage to be able to handle engagements with fewer units/larvae. Of course, human error is a large part of why aggressive play does end up working; no one micros/macros perfectly. I still believe a more wholesome way of learning would be speed expand into defensive ling/bane or light pressure versus a 15 hatch. Besides that, I believe this is a really good guide that should help out a lot of learning zerg players; thanks for putting in the time/effort!

oOOoOphidian

United States1402 Posts

February 09 2012 07:17 GMT

#70

On February 09 2012 14:58 6xFPCs wrote:

Show nested quote +

I usually go for defensive roach builds into 2-3 hatch muta and all it takes is scouting (gas timings are one good indication in addition to drone counts etc.) and pumping units to hold both of these attacks. I don't even usually get +1 attack, but if someone is going for an offensive roach timing with +1 they will obviously fare even better and be able to counter attack you easily for a win. When I defend stuff like this I usually just go straight into mutas and take a third and the all-in put them so far behind that they can't really even defend that or stop my third. Spines and pulling drones can help, especially if you have good micro and against the baneling variation just target banelings whenever possible.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 09 2012 12:01 GMT

#71

On February 09 2012 14:58 6xFPCs wrote:

Show nested quote +

Roach openings get rolled by this style, it's just too many lings for them to defend the ramp and their expansion - baneling defense is the best option but with good micro you can still win with just the pure-ling, and the roach/ling transition is timed specifically to counter baneling openings. The thing most of the skeptical players are overlooking is how annoying 42 lings can be at the 6 minute mark - they're like "Yeah I'll just build roaches or banelings in that scenario and easy win" but it's nothing like that, in actuality. I've played best of 5-7 series with strong zergs and won every game with this build (different transition after the lings, of course). It's not a pure "metagame tactic" as some people suggest, it's a safe and solid way to put on pressure and secure an economic advantage OR transition into a follow-up timing attack.

I would absolutely open this style against an opponent who knew it was coming and still expect to win the vast majority of the time.

TheSubtleArt

Canada2527 Posts

February 09 2012 12:14 GMT

#72

How did I know this guide was written by Tang from the title?

Also isn't it contradictory that you say this:

So many players just do the one base, 14/14 baneling all-in, early pool rushes, or the Destiny style Roach/Ling all-in. Obviously these styles can win you games, but it's very one-dimensional and not likely to help you improve.

when this guide, and basically all the other ones you've written, are about a one or 2 base all in?

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 09 2012 12:19 GMT

#73

On February 09 2012 21:14 TheSubtleArt wrote:
How did I know this guide was written by Tang from the title?

Also isn't it contradictory that you say this:

Show nested quote +

when this guide, and basically all the other ones you've written, are about a one or 2 base all in?

Very few of my guides are about all-ins. There are a wide variety of macro transitions available in ZvZ after putting on pressure and securing map control. This is a style that is completely safe against cheese and lets you take control of the matchup by executing early timing attacks that do damage, have a chance to win, and give you the freedom to drone behind. Not a lot of zerg vs zerg styles allow that, and I think a lot of players wish they didn't have to play a defensive guessing game.

If you watch the stream videos, you'll see that what I'm encouraging zerg players to do in ZvZ is drone while they have map control instead of just doing it blindly. As I've repeated, even players who have a macro agenda but don't quite have a solid/safe opening can benefit from using this build for safety, transitioning to a style of their choice (spines/mutas, evo/roaches, etc) This is an alternative style that to standard macro that works quite while against any opening, assuming equal skill level. And I've had a lot of fun with it too!

GiftPflanZe

Germany623 Posts

February 09 2012 12:21 GMT

#74

Cool guide,but the 42 ling attack can be crushed by defensive banes while he drones up and actually all people go bling even if just a few for saftey so its like hoping he dosen't get defensive banes

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 09 2012 12:29 GMT

#75

On February 09 2012 21:21 GiftPflanZe wrote:
Cool guide,but the 42 ling attack can be crushed by defensive banes while he drones up and actually all people go bling even if just a few for saftey so its like hoping he dosen't get defensive banes

At first glance it may seem that way, but you have to understand by the 5:30-6:00 minute mark, half the people who open banelings will have none morphed yet and die. Also, if your opponent overdrones or opens roaches, they're going to be VERY hardpressed to hold the ling push. And if they do any 1 base all-in, you can shut it down pretty easily with good micro (following the steps of stream tutorial 4).

The only time you aren't GUARANTEED to do enough damage to win or at least make the ling investment worthwhile is if he gets very early banelings and produces nothing but zerglings (no drones). If he's going defensive banelings and trying to drone, he's still going to get overrun - he has to make a lot of zerglings to hold, which means you can actually pull ahead in econ in this situation. Also, since he invests so much gas/minerals into ling/bane defense, it makes your roach/ling transition that much stronger. If you time the ling pressure well, as the build in the guide shows, and micro your lings without losing too many too banelings, you can actually win against a baneling defense or end the engagement with a drone advantage and a roach warren building.
You also get 100% scouting information of his tech choice, how many units he's building and how many drones he has - and full freedom to drone/respond in whichever way you prefer.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 09 2012 12:37 GMT

#76

On February 09 2012 21:14 TheSubtleArt wrote:
How did I know this guide was written by Tang from the title?

Because I'm an English major who loves alliteration?!

Vralaren

Sweden130 Posts

February 09 2012 12:54 GMT

#77

On February 09 2012 08:51 lindn wrote:
Oh look, another all in guide from the infamous Tang.

Standard stuff as usual.

Lol what are you saying? He clearly says that u can transition... Please try it before u state that its a allin!

hughie-d

45 Posts

February 09 2012 12:57 GMT

#78

I like your guides Tang, keep it up. I feel the best way to play zvz is to dictate the pace, if the player is straight up better than you and rects well chances are you would lose a macro game anyway. Putting pressure on players is how you eek out leads, like a dropping terran can come back into a game when behind.

Tribuno

Italy261 Posts

February 09 2012 13:28 GMT

#79

i don't understand why so many bad comments.. all in are part of the game, so have a nice write up on this is very good. The tutorial is very accurate, full of examples, explanations and picture.. i enjoy it.
A player can try it or not, its your choice.. but its a possibility! everyone has his own playstyle. I appreciate the effort and the time tang spended for this thread.
And for istance, ladder is full of allinner and cheeser.. so know about cheesy or allin build is nice in every case.
And anyway u can transition from this style.. so it double worth for me.

chayde

United States13 Posts

February 09 2012 16:39 GMT

#80

The ridiculous amount of hate in this thread is a little unbelievable. Just because the style isn't to your liking doesn't automatically mean its of the devil's loins as most of you would seem to have us believe with all your raging.

I have read all of Tang's posts thus far this one included and have found very few flaws in what he says for the low to moderate skill level zerg players such as myself. I can't speak for skill levels higher than Gold/Platinum, but from an up and coming player having these kinds of strategies in our bag of tricks is important. This guide in particular is interesting because it gives you an option for an aggressive opening that allows you to focus on both microing your attacking units and multitasking while macroing back home. The people saying its an all-in have clearly not bothered to read the post or watch any of the replays because transitions after the initial attack are covered in both places.

Thank you Tang for another excellently written guide, I look forward to more of them in the future. I'd love to see a vP guide from this aggressive style.

Kamikiri

United States1319 Posts

February 09 2012 16:49 GMT

#81

So, looking at this I see an all-in that is easy to scout and this is why.

You make a ton of lings to put "pressure on" the problem is in ZvZ, making nothing but lings while your opponent defends with just banes and spines puts him way ahead, he will be droning and be 100% safe with spines + banes. You will then transition into 7-8 roaches and almost pure ling and turn it into a quite honestly weak all-in that if it doesn't work you are far to behind.

If I am wrong here feel free to tell me how, but doing nothing but making lings that you can't do anything with if your opponent has banelings you will be behind as they will be droning. I don't see any recent replays here, this feels very frail and weak, perhaps it will work if you do a lot of damage early on based on your opponent messing up, not you outplaying them it can work.

You also should try to not advertise this as anything but an all-in and stop saying that this will help you improve because it really is not anything different than other all-ins off of 2 base.

I mean absolutely no disrespect in anyway or to be rude at all, this is just what I see with a build like this.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 09 2012 17:05 GMT

#82

On February 10 2012 01:49 Kamikiri wrote:

If I am wrong here feel free to tell me how, but doing nothing but making lings that you can't do anything with if your opponent has banelings you will be behind as they will be droning. I don't see any recent replays here, this feels very frail and weak, perhaps it will work if you do a lot of damage early on based on your opponent messing up, not you outplaying them it can work.

You also should try to not advertise this as anything but an all-in and stop saying that this will help you improve because it really is not anything different than other all-ins off of 2 base.

I mean absolutely no disrespect in anyway or to be rude at all, this is just what I see with a build like this.

I've explained numerous times that it's not a simple matter of "Oh he has banelings, I lose." IF the opponent is able to survive the 6minute ling push, he'll be putting his resources/larva into zergling/baneling/spine defense while you drone and transition. Everyone seems to think it's so easy to just build defense and hold this, but it's not so easy in a real game. Also, the defending player has to build defenses, obviously, and you absolutely can come out with a harvester lead after the first ling push.
Also, I've analyzed games in the stream tutorials that are recent - and included replay files from season 3, 4, and 5. You can say it's frail and weak, but I've used this extensively in high master ZvZ and it's a matchup I'm confident in.

As for whether this is an "all-in" like you say, my answer is "Yes, No, and who cares?"
Yes - you can be relentless and continue throwing units in until you win or lose. In some situations, it's actually correct.
No - you can transition into standard macro or another style of timing attack like roach/ling or roach/ling/bane.
Who Cares? - If you do decide NOT to transition, it's likely because your initial attack has done damage and you feel you can win. Sure, it's possible in some games your opponent will defend admirably and be ahead, but you can always have better micro and multitasking - and those are the skills that an active style like this forces you to develop.

Fapington

United States1 Post

February 09 2012 17:30 GMT

#83

I would like to share my personal experience with this build.

Months ago, I hated ZvZ so much, that I simply refused to play it. I would insta quit all ZvZ.

I then took a lesson with Tang, and learned this build. Since then, at the diamond level, I have a 90% win rate in ZvZ match ups.

I went from being a stubborn defensive macro oriented player who was trying to figure out why I kept dying, to an aggressive player raping my way through 9 minute victories without even having to make a roach. My ling micro has drastically improved, and my understanding of the match up has improved.

It is important to note that this build does not consist of massing 42 lings, binding them to a hot key, and a-moving to your opponents base. As soon as speed finishes, your going to want to be poking out, blocking the enemy ramp from getting a roach wall, picking off his smaller group of lings, taking out banelings as you can, sniping queens, killing drones, etc.....

If he is turtling up and placing spines, try to deny them. If you cant deny them but he's open to a runby, get in his main. Destroy his aspirations of getting a high drone count.

If your lings go to waste, and your unable to do anything with them, then you need to look at your own mechanics. The build is not taking anything away from the opportunity which exists. The only way a player could keep up with your army production would be to do a very similar build. It is unlikely that he is, as most zergs taking a FE intend to drone. Punish them for that.

If they didn't fast expand, then you get to keep them on 1 base for quite a while. In the mean time, your comfortably on 2.

The most troublesome scenario is a 1 base baneling all in. Simply base trade. Do not engage his banelings. Move around them, and to his base. Rally your lings to his base, and you win. The amount of zerglings you made will have a much higher sustainable DPS than the less zerglings he has, plus his banelings. Banelings are great DPS, once.

TLDR: If you enjoy 40 minute roach/festor games, then play on playa! If you enjoy map control, aggression, micro, and a powerful build order open to transitions, then try this build.

Demonhunter04

1530 Posts

February 09 2012 17:45 GMT

#84

Because if a zerg can get as high a drone count as possible, he can roll over his opponent with a huge economic lead later on, while being aggressive before that point can be stopped easily with some defense.

Tivu

United States244 Posts

February 09 2012 18:13 GMT

#85

Awesome guide tang.

ToXSiK

United States83 Posts

February 09 2012 18:18 GMT

#86

Another great guide from tang. People hate on his builds a lot, but I use these at high level as well and am pretty successful with them. Thanks!

Bahamuth

134 Posts

February 09 2012 18:54 GMT

#87

Thanks for the guide Tang. I think the very precise build orders really help lower players with something they can consistently train.

TUski

United States1258 Posts

February 09 2012 18:56 GMT

#88

And this is the reason why I have the SC2 Strategy forum minimized on TL.

Tenken

United States17 Posts

February 09 2012 19:03 GMT

#89

On February 10 2012 03:56 TUski wrote:
And this is the reason why I have the SC2 Strategy forum minimized on TL.

Northern_iight

Canada363 Posts

February 09 2012 19:22 GMT

#90

just lost to this twice in a row on ladder from the same guy. Asked him if he was using the Tang SC guide in game and he confirmed it. I meet him on ladder next game (3 games in a row), pretty much blind counter him by throwing up 2 spines at nat and rushing to blings. He saw I was very aware the third time and he cut the ling production and went on to drone. I just did a counter roach/bling/ling after saturating both my bases.

Basically It's very good on ladder when people are expecting standard builds. How do you win games? Do things your opponents don't expect. I don't get why people are hating on these guides, I for one am very appreciative of these guides from TangSC. They help players that don't know how to do aggressive ZvX builds and show them that we can attack on 2 base as well. People who think it is all-in, i would say it's Semi because you are saturated on 2 base and taking third behind it. Though you won't have a 10 drone lead but you rely on your execution on the attack. and as tang said. drone behind it.
This is a game with many possibilities. Army composition, build orders. execution, etc. can all be done differently. This is just a way to play aggressive if you spot your opponent trying to play greedy when you drone scout.

Thanks for these guides Tang, Keep them up please!

Doomblaze

United States1292 Posts

February 09 2012 19:29 GMT

#91

On February 09 2012 21:14 TheSubtleArt wrote:
How did I know this guide was written by Tang from the title?

Also isn't it contradictory that you say this:

Show nested quote +

when this guide, and basically all the other ones you've written, are about a one or 2 base all in?

Hahaha I agree.

Tang, you would get some more positive feedback if you called/admitted that your builds are allin. Building 42 lings when they can defend while using 2/3 of their larva (perhaps less) gives them a 7 drone lead on you. I think this build is a lot better than your others, because ZvZ is a matchup where early game micro is extremely important (im watching masses of ZvZ right now at IEM and they're ending rather quickly), but trying to transition out of it involves the opponent making large mistakes to allow you to get back into the game. You can drone out of this, but you will be behind economically, and then when their drone count starts kicking in, be behind in army too.

NeonFox

2373 Posts

February 09 2012 19:34 GMT

#92

You have a "timing attack" with 42 lings as part of your build?

If the opponent has banelings and half a brain you will be soooo far behind, you can stop any amount of lings with a spine 2 queens and a few banelings, and I'm pretty damn sure most Z players will have those by the 6mn mark.

And your second attack with roach ling will be obliterated by the opponent when he made drones instead of 42 useless lings and now has his own roach warren,

Second fun part is that a mutaling player will have a wall of spines to welcome you, you don't have banelings to break it down, lings are useless vs spines, and 7 roaches is not enough to break it down. Plus if you depart from your base at 9mn you will begin your attack as his mutas pop, you won't have an evo yet and no lair...

Edit : spelling

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 09 2012 21:28 GMT

#93

On February 10 2012 04:34 NeonFox wrote:
You have a "timing attack" with 42 lings as part of your build?

Yes, I don't always make that many lings (ZvZ is based as much on game sense/feel as it is on specific timings) but in general, I make a lot of zerglings and try to dictate the pace. I've stressed numerous times that you don't have to follow the exact build, you could make less lings or transition into macro instead of another timing attack. However, the attack and follow-through explained in this guide are options that I use frequently because they work well together.

Servius_Fulvius

United States947 Posts

February 09 2012 21:41 GMT

#94

On February 10 2012 02:05 TangSC wrote:
Everyone seems to think it's so easy to just build defense and hold this, but it's not so easy in a real game. Also, the

Agreed.

I'm in plat with an abysmal win rate in zvz. Actually it's getting better than the 20% from late December (more towards 40% now), but it's where I lose most my games.

The style I would like to play involves early upgrades and heavy roach into roach/hydra/infestor. The problem is that so many of my opponents in platinum pull these rushes (or similar variants) and I'm frequently sent to the drawing boards to come up with an answer of why I can never hold it. Simply put, defending these kinds of rushes is very difficult. The only times I seem to hold are win my opponent executes poorly or I get a lucky baneling shot.

I have a zerg-playing friend I play with quite a bit and he uses a strategy similar to your guide. He masses lings off two base, attacks, and if it doesn't work he transitions into a +1 roach bust and attacks again. He has a 75% win rate in zvz and sits in low masters. I can certainly beat him if I can beat the rushes since my macro and multitasking blow his out of the water, but getting to that point has been almost impossible for me in the last couple months.

One thing that has been working is relentless aggressive with the smaller forces in the early game. Not so much attacking as keeping an eye on their front - at least that way I can keep an eye on their unit composition. I suppose I can take this much away from your guide.

mapleleafs791

United States225 Posts

February 09 2012 22:16 GMT

#95

As much I dont think too much of tang's builds/guides as they seem pretty ladder Bo1 based rather than personal improvement based i will say this in defense of this one.

Before when i was between silver and diamond, the second i learned how good aggression is in ZvZ for
1. Scouting army comp
2. Safely Droning
3. Punishing unsafe greed

it changed my win rate so much vs zergs.

Aggression is very usefull and in ZvZ at lower levels over aggression is MUCH better than under- aggression. Simply put if you can play this build you WILL kill lower players that get improperly timed buildings/overdrone/have bad micro.

Focusing on strategy instead of all ins is good long term but even in masters timings like this with good micro can be really strong and ZvZ is damn complicated so for someone new to ZvZ this is a great starting point.

Also this teaches good micro as ling vs ling bane is a good skill to learn.
Why focus on macro and late game transition when you cant even micro and play a safe early game to set up the midgame? Walk before you crawl

I dont agree with a lot of tang guides but aggression in zvz is really useful and ladder players (myself included) underestimate the power of micro and aggression. To be honest i dont think 75% of my ZvZs even need to get to lair tech due to early game mistakes and aggression lets you capitalize on mistakes. You dont need to play this build EVERY game but zerg "all ins" backed by good control dont always have to be all in.

TLDR: While i would not personally use this build myself, for someone having issues with zvz this can be a great starting point to see the power of aggression as well as the power of micro vs a defensive player. You can play pure aggressive zvz and still win alot, it just depends ALOT on the relative differences in control between you and your opponent. Im willing to bet Nestea/DRG/Losira could roll face using this build against alot of lower tier pro players because of that relative difference in micro.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 10 2012 00:54 GMT

#96

Sheth, nestea, drg, etc. do use similar builds. It's definitely strong on ladder where your opponent isn't expecting it, but if you become familiar with the transitions you can use the build in a bo3-5 format as well

Vei

United States2845 Posts

February 10 2012 00:59 GMT

#97

On February 09 2012 08:24 pac.558 wrote:
i don't like the fact that all these stategies are based on your opponent sucking

agree. ZvZ does require a degree of passiveness, moreso the better your opponent is. it's about econ scouting and making the minimum amount of units to be able to do dmg and allow you to drone, pulling an econ lead

the fact that you had to use s3/s4 replays, given the trend of all-ins becoming weaker the longer into sc2's lifespan, speaks a little bit about the overall strength of just relying on timing pushes imo..

fezvez

France3021 Posts

February 10 2012 01:36 GMT

#98

For the 53rd time, thanks Tang for these kind of builds.

I have big troubles playing Zerg (as a Random player), so your builds remove a lot of frustration!

dabosaur

Sweden95 Posts

February 10 2012 01:41 GMT

#99

Isnt it unsafe to have your buildings so spread out against like a 6pool or so? if it's closer to your drones you can push the zerglings away..?

Jak360

United States2 Posts

February 10 2012 02:20 GMT

#100

Small question. Would this build still work if u wanted to throw down a hatch before pool. Or would you not have the gas and speed up fast enough?

naut1c

Austria100 Posts

February 10 2012 08:01 GMT

#101

There is no super-build in zvz. its all about scouting and reaction. deciding whether to be passive or aggressive. this this builtd is an allin because u oovercommit in utnits. it can work. like any other allin. but if your enemy is smart you auto loose. simple as that

Xana

Denmark128 Posts

February 10 2012 09:30 GMT

#102

I met this yesterday and shut it down extremely hard with one of my standard builds. I have a question for you;

If the opponent goes Hatch first and blocks his ramp with two queens, defended by a spine, have a small amount of lings and a bane at his natural, what are you going to do?

When I scouted his roaches I already had three hatches with injects going to mass lings and crush that paltry army.

Tribuno

Italy261 Posts

February 10 2012 13:24 GMT

#103

today with this build and concept i won 5/6 of my ZvZ.. i think its really good.. and reading and seeing the tutorials i finally understand the importance of droning WITH map control and not blind.. that's the key in my "new" ZvZ. Also if u re not able to finish the game, u are able to drone safe.. and i like this build also because u can easy deflect roach/ liing all in and also baneling all in with some micro and good placement.. thanks tang!

ukas

Mexico24 Posts

February 10 2012 14:01 GMT

#104

Awesome guide already using it, may not be gm but it's a very fun strat to use.
Also the timings do not lie if you do it right there is very little or almost nothing opp can do cause its not meta it's a bo win

Baseic

Netherlands310 Posts

February 10 2012 14:27 GMT

#105

Some people are asking why there's so much hate. Well here's the answer:
These builds are great for people below masters, people will use terrible builds and generally not use banelings.
But if you are >Masters, and you assume comparable micro, you will lose against any not overly greedy zerg. (2 queen, spine, baneling defense of a 15 hatch). That is a very, very standard opener and if you both micro properly, the mass ling player will lose every single time.
Tang, please stop posting these builds and pretending it's 'not an all-in' or 'it has strong transitions'. You are executing this build, hoping your opponent is too greedy. After that you don't asses the damage and just follow up with another all-in, whether you're ahead or behind.

Best way to hold: 15 hatch, 4 baneling at the ready, spine at nat, 3 queens, 2 injecting 1 spreading creep. Once you see the attack you morph as many banes as you're able to, you block the ramp with 2 queens and you pull your drones into your main.
No damage done, the round of lings comes out and you're safe with more drones. You then start a roach warren and keep scouting and droning up. The roaches move out, you make your own roaches. GG from there.

tl;dr: This build works because it's a double all-in, and people generally suck vs. all-ins.

TheSubtleArt

Canada2527 Posts

February 10 2012 14:29 GMT

#106

On February 09 2012 21:19 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

Except you're compromising your drone count for map control that's essentially worthless at that stage of the game.It's not like Zerg's looking to move out or take a fast third....Your speedlings can have all the map control they want, it really doesn't matter if the other player is perfectly fine sitting in their base, enjoying an 8 drone lead, then pushing out with a much bigger army because your ~40 lings didn't do enough damage to justify themselves.

Not saying this is bad, it can probably work, but your "put on pressure, take map control and drone behind it" is a lot better in theory than it is in practice (mainly cause map control really isnt that important when your opponent is riding a better economy and doesn't need to take a 3rd any time soon). I'm sure these guides would be more positively received by good players if you stopped trying to mask the fact that you're essentially writing an instruction manual for an all in, and then telling people to make enough drones to support another all in if their opponent isn't crippled, then pretending that somehow shows good macro and transitioning.

You're committing way too much for this to simply be pressure you can drone behind. Making 8 roaches in ZvT to force a CC lift, force scvs to be pulled to repair a wall, and force a bunker while droning is pressure. Making 40 lings this early in ZvZ is all in.

Ninja_Bread

United States113 Posts

February 10 2012 15:04 GMT

#107

Masters zerg here. I used to do the same silly ling all in when I was in diamond, it's an all in and won't get you that far. Thia guidie is about as useful as a 4gate guide. There's a huge difference between ling pressure and all ins. If you want to pressure just make earlier lings with larvae and try to force him to overproduce.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 10 2012 17:10 GMT

#108

On February 10 2012 10:41 dabosaur wrote:
Isnt it unsafe to have your buildings so spread out against like a 6pool or so? if it's closer to your drones you can push the zerglings away..?

I actually typically put the pool 2 squares away from hatch (room for a spine to be touching the pool and hatch) in case of that type of pressure, can cancel hatch and put 2-3 spines up in between. Shuts it down pretty hard because lings can't hit the spine.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 10 2012 17:12 GMT

#109

On February 10 2012 11:20 Jak360 wrote:
Small question. Would this build still work if u wanted to throw down a hatch before pool. Or would you not have the gas and speed up fast enough?

I prefer pool first, gets the 2 queens up very early and optimizes your ling count at 5:30. To those saying they can stop this, feel free to message me in game anytime Tang/233 and we'll see how "easy" it is for you to defend ^^

kirdie

Germany221 Posts

February 10 2012 17:14 GMT

#110

I don't understand the hate for this build. Just try it until you master it. If it's so bad you will come to a point where you are losing with it always but then you know how to counter it in case your opponent does it. Also I think it is always good to have an allin in your repertoire in case you know how your enemy normally plays or you scout something that makes him succeptible to it. What I find a bit dangerous however is that with 15 pool 15 gas your zergling speed finishes later than your opponents and I could imagine that there is a window of vulnerability there.

Xana

Denmark128 Posts

February 10 2012 17:20 GMT

#111

I'll pose this again:

If the opponent goes Hatch first and blocks his ramp with two queens, defended by a spine, have a small amount of lings and a bane at his natural, and a nice concave of overlords so he can still do injections, what are you going to do?

When I scouted his roaches I already had three hatches with injects going to mass lings and crush that paltry army.

Just because it was entirely overlooked by everyone.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 10 2012 17:21 GMT

#112

On February 11 2012 02:20 Xana wrote:
I'll pose this again:

If the opponent goes Hatch first and blocks his ramp with two queens, defended by a spine, have a small amount of lings and a bane at his natural, and a nice concave of overlords so he can still do injections, what are you going to do?

When I scouted his roaches I already had three hatches with injects going to mass lings and crush that paltry army.

Just because it was entirely overlooked by everyone.

You actually need 3 queens to defend the ramp and STILL will need banelings, your lings will easily (and i mean easily) break through a spine and 2 queens. Also, you're droning behind this - he needs to be making units and defenses. You'll end up even in drones or ahead by the end of it, assuming your read is correct.

Xana

Denmark128 Posts

February 10 2012 17:30 GMT

#113

I didn't find this response even remotely helpful. I'm argueing from the -defending- players side in this, not from the aggressors.

One or two banelings is enough to deflect the lings from said spine, or from the choke at your ramp. Just a handful (6 lings, generally) is enough to make sure he doesn't send in a few lings to kill your banes. Having him run into your mineral line and hold position with the lings will be extremely dangerous as you have those banelings. You don't need three queens to block a ramp, you don't even need lingspeed. If you place your Evochamber/Roachwarren at your expansion as the defending player, you can make it impossible for the aggressive player to do any damage with the first attack.

^ If this tactic can deflect the 24 +1 speedlings all-in at 6min 20, I believe I can shut down your first attack pretty hard aswell.

Sergio1992

Italy522 Posts

February 10 2012 17:40 GMT

#114

On February 11 2012 02:30 Xana wrote:

Show nested quote +

theorycrafting in this forum won't help you, you should ask him to play a skirmish and prove your point...
So, if you find any weakness he will just add them to the main post

Xana

Denmark128 Posts

February 10 2012 17:47 GMT

#115

I wouldn't call it theorycrafting, as that is exactly what happened in my last few games. I'd love to play a game with Tang to prove my point, I merely fear his micro will be three stages above mine ;-)

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 10 2012 18:22 GMT

#116

It's true dealing with banelings will be harder for a player without solid ling micro - but what better way is there to practice it than with an active style?

Baseic

Netherlands310 Posts

February 10 2012 18:24 GMT

#117

Tang, you can't deny that with similar micro skills, 6 banelings 2 queens and a spine will always beat your ling all-in without any losses.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 10 2012 18:33 GMT

#118

You can't deny that it's impossible to have 6 banes 2 queens and a spine at your natural at 5:30.

Baseic

Netherlands310 Posts

February 10 2012 19:00 GMT

#119

After second investigation, you're right, most 15 hatch barely have banes by 6 mins when going speed first. So it depends on if queens can hold you off long enough and if he has spent his injects already.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 10 2012 19:04 GMT

#120

On February 11 2012 04:00 Baseic wrote:
After second investigation, you're right, most 15 hatch barely have banes by 6 mins when going speed first. So it depends on if queens can hold you off long enough and if he has spent his injects already.

Exactly. And when you do afford banes, it'll only be 2-3 at first - that's where micro comes in handy ^^ But even if you do end up just killing a queen, a few lings, maybe the spine, you have to remember you're droning behind this. Yes, your initial drone count (16) is low but it's enough to fully saturate 1 base. If you rally to your expansion and start producing drones right at 42, you'd be surprised how quickly you can catch up and even pull ahead in income. Most games against banelings, you're just looking to do damage and secure map control, you're not looking to win outright (though it's absolutely possible). The thing you should be most concerned about is determining whether a ling/bane counter attack is coming. That's the real threat when using this baneling-less opening.

However, it's definitely an option to do the ling opening and transition into defensive ling/bane afterwords.

Phoenixed

11 Posts

February 10 2012 19:24 GMT

#121

Lurker for months, but registered for this.
Great guide and game plan. It's not unbeatable (nothing is) but it's rock solid and now my diamond zvz no longer feels random and improvised.
Haven't lost a single mirror yet. Awesome!

xlava

United States676 Posts

February 10 2012 21:06 GMT

#122

Why the hell do people keep bitching at Tang? I don't understand. I don't know his past/bm/whatever, I don't care, he's obviously doing good things for the community, all these hate comments are really immature and unwarranted.

I don't even play zerg, nice guide though.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 10 2012 23:39 GMT

#123

On February 11 2012 06:06 xlava wrote:
Why the hell do people keep bitching at Tang? I don't understand. I don't know his past/bm/whatever, I don't care, he's obviously doing good things for the community, all these hate comments are really immature and unwarranted.

I don't even play zerg, nice guide though.

I think it's just a resistance to a non-macro style of zerg. We forget that Leenock, DRG, JulyZerg, Nestea, Sen, and Sheth all use builds like these on a regular basis.

Drmooose

United States390 Posts

February 11 2012 00:27 GMT

#124

Id argue its your relentless resistence to having a build of yours being called an "all in" which I don't understand as it doesn't change anything either way.

That being said I really appreciate the write up. No one should be content without knowing a few aggressive styles like this as they're perfect for a boX series or even if you get rematched against someone on ladder right away. I always prefer ling opens to roach styles and playing aggressive with ling/bane isn't always viable on maps with smaller chokes. I've been looking for a build like that that can punish an expo.

Noak3

United States236 Posts

February 11 2012 02:29 GMT

#125

Because many players that don't play that style get stuck at the point in high diamond or low masters where their opponents know how to counter that type of play. Tang managed to get high because he has good game sense and knows when and how to transition. Many higher players aren't comfortable with the idea that you have to do damage to be even.

The interesting thing is, tang, that your ling micro against banes isn't that great- no offense or anything. I'm impressed that your style is still this strong despite losing big clumps of lings every game.

What set of transitions are you comfortable with after this if your roach/ling attack sets you even, behind, or only slightly ahead? I would imagine that a set of timings after this to secure additional bases/tech would be good, like a roach/infestor/+2 timing to get a 4th and hive or something.

I would love to play this style if a full game got played out every time I used it, my only problem with it is how little your games tend to progress. I'm most comfortable in the lategame and late-midgame, so it's unfortunate that, even if this is a fun style, I wouldn't get to experience that very often if I started using it.

Inf1n1teabyss

United States14 Posts

February 11 2012 05:53 GMT

#126

Nice guide mr Tang, I like it. It has help me alot. I dont see you stream much

. But i'd love to see a guide similar to this on zvt. Keep up the good work.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 11 2012 06:28 GMT

#127

On February 11 2012 09:27 Drmooose wrote:
Id argue its your relentless resistence to having a build of yours being called an "all in" which I don't understand as it doesn't change anything either way.

Oh I've written guides on all-in. I'd be comfortable calling this guide an all-in if it was, but ZvZ is so situational that you can't really say a given timing attack is or isn't an all-in. I'd say this build has the potential of being an all-in, and has the potential of transitioning into a different all in, and has the potential to transition into macro.

DustyShelf

United Kingdom111 Posts

February 11 2012 09:00 GMT

#128

Thank you for posting this guide I really liked it and will try it out sometimes

.

I also don't get the hate. Its a bit of a gamble, sure but you're probably going to do some damage unless you just blindly move all your lings in a big clump. If your control is better then a hella ton of damage and as if he runs out of banes he's dead. It's not all-in if you set back his economy as much as yours which this build gives you one of the best opportunities to by killing drones. Talking about defenders advantage with the fastest unit in the game is a little wobbly too. It's much less of a deal with rallying speedlings.

I mean considering ling/bling is such a popular build and requires exactly the same sort of control and risk taking I don't see what everyone's problem is. This way you're not even gambling gas and if you get a stab at the drone line he can't just split.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 11 2012 15:53 GMT

#129

On February 11 2012 18:00 DustyShelf wrote:
I mean considering ling/bling is such a popular build and requires exactly the same sort of control and risk taking I don't see what everyone's problem is. This way you're not even gambling gas and if you get a stab at the drone line he can't just split.

I agree. ZvZ is a dicey matchup which is why I don't like playing baneling or roach defense. I prefer to take the battle to my opponent. It's fun and good practice to take shots, poke, scout, do damage, transition, and keep your opponent on the backfoot as much as possible so you're in control. There's nothing inherently wrong with utilizing a low-econ opening, as long as you have these types of goals in mind. That and your opponent's head on a spike!

DarKFoRcE

Germany1215 Posts

February 11 2012 15:59 GMT

#130

i think this is as one dimensional as the styles you critize. you basically hope your opponent doesnt have banelings in time. if he has only like 2 banes and a spine at home (something very usual), i dont see what you can do with your mass ling. because reinforcements and queens will prevent you from killing the banes easily with few lings..

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 11 2012 16:16 GMT

#131

On February 12 2012 00:59 DarKFoRcE wrote:
i think this is as one dimensional as the styles you critize. you basically hope your opponent doesnt have banelings in time. if he has only like 2 banes and a spine at home (something very usual), i dont see what you can do with your mass ling. because reinforcements and queens will prevent you from killing the banes easily with few lings..

I see what you're saying. Obviously you do hope your opponent doesn't have banelings in time, because then you win outright. The thing is, you have 16 drones mining minerals. If he's going to defend this with ling/bane, he probably has between 19-22 drones when you hit (3 of which are in gas) so you're definitely not that behind + you have the map control and he may over commit to defense.
What makes this style different than a one-dimensional style like the 14/14 ling baneling is that it's not just one big attack. It's a sequence of attacks, based on adapting to your opponent's style. For example, if your opponent spines up, you adapt by droning and most likely securing an economic lead assuming you cut lings right away. If your opponent neglects spines and tries to greedily hold with only a few lings and banes, you can hit him with another ling timing or even a roach/ling attack like I outline in this thread.
I'm not arguing this is the absolute definitive best build for Zergs to use, but for those who are struggling in the matchup, this is a way to improve the micro/multitasking mechanics needed to play at a higher level. Also, it shuts down 1-base play extremely easily and you never have to have that fear of "I don't know what my opponent is doing, should I drone or make units?" because you're ALWAYS being active, scouting, and trying to do damage. I don't think playing a macro-style practices these necessary skills to such a degree.

EndOfLineTv

United States741 Posts

February 11 2012 16:44 GMT

#132

People need to get off your back about your tips/tactics.

I agree that all openings to should be tried and tested. Then one can really work on their own tactics with the knowlege of what can be viable.

dSoda

United States122 Posts

February 11 2012 18:55 GMT

#133

In the instance your opponent has those few defensive banes and your lings can't do any damage, how do you transition out of it, specifically how do you defend against a roach bane followup. It seems like when i run into builds like this on ladder, its almost an autowin for me if i just get to 30 drones, make ~10 roaches and morph 15 or so banes and attack/stream reinforcements.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 11 2012 19:08 GMT

#134

On February 12 2012 03:55 McDrew wrote:
In the instance your opponent has those few defensive banes and your lings can't do any damage, how do you transition out of it, specifically how do you defend against a roach bane followup. It seems like when i run into builds like this on ladder, its almost an autowin for me if i just get to 30 drones, make ~10 roaches and morph 15 or so banes and attack/stream reinforcements.

I think that's one of the beautiful things about the roach/ling transition. If your opponent does a big counter-attack all-in like roach/ling/bane, you can just defend with your spine/roaches/lings instead of moving out. It would largely depend on how many drones your made while defending, but if he opened ling/bane defense his roach/ling/bane push is going to be delayed over a roach opening anyway.

Ntwadumela

United States65 Posts

February 11 2012 19:19 GMT

#135

Thanks for the guide. I know as a diamond player struggling with ZvZ, I'll try it.

Schnullerbacke13

Germany1199 Posts

February 11 2012 21:13 GMT

#136

Thanx for your work, Tang. 'though i prefer the defensive side in ZvZ, it is insightful to see the aggressor side.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 12 2012 01:22 GMT

#137

On February 12 2012 06:13 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
Thanx for your work, Tang. 'though i prefer the defensive side in ZvZ, it is insightful to see the aggressor side.

Stream episode 3 is focused partially on good ways to defend against this style.

iglocska

Norway589 Posts

February 12 2012 01:44 GMT

#138

On February 11 2012 03:22 TangSC wrote:
It's true dealing with banelings will be harder for a player without solid ling micro - but what better way is there to practice it than with an active style?

I think this is a really good point. I have often used your old build, the 2 base speedling all-in, when I felt like practicing my ling micro a bit (since everyone and their dog seemed to go 14/14 banelings at the time) - and I feel that it really helped. I feel confident enough dealing with banelings using only zerglings at my level (high dia/low masters) due to using that build every now and then.

Even though 75% of the time I try to force macro games to get better, I really enjoy throwing your builds in there once in a while, so thanks for all your guides

PhiliBiRD

United States2643 Posts

February 12 2012 01:49 GMT

#139

great post! so rare

doggy

Germany306 Posts

February 12 2012 10:43 GMT

#140

On February 12 2012 01:16 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

How can you possibly claim that youre not super far behind if ure on 16Drones (just ling tech) against Ling, Bling, Spine, on 19-22 drones? I mean, sure its not unwinable from here, but ure in a very uncomfortable position. I kinda like ur play (as much as any other allin builds) on shitty maps or to mix in cheese in BOX matches - and im sure, at least on the NA server, you will get a ton of points with that. But does it make sense, to practice builds, write guides which will FAIL against good zerg? Yes, Sheth is a good one, but in ZvZ every good Zergs makes mistakes sometimes. Thats what your build builds on, your enemy screwing up. I would understand more of your arguments or see you as a better player if you would write some... solid builds? Unfortunately, there havent been some of those.

I guess this build rocks for everything but high master/gm. But dudes, if you ever want to become a better gamer, there is not much sense executing such builds on ladder.

looken

727 Posts

February 12 2012 11:45 GMT

#141

i really dont understand all the hate and all those "this is just an all in, if oponent scouts it you are so fare behind" comments.

why cant you ppl just accept this build as a strong, aggressive tool you can have in your arsenal? do you only play one single build every game? dont you ever mix it up?

and btw, those "if you get scoutet you're dead" comments are so silly. no matter what you try to do, if you get scouted its bad for you. it might be worse if you wanted to do an all in and your opponent scouts it out, but at the end of the day, getting scouted is bad with every build order. i mean if a two rax gets scouted early on, terran is pretty much dead. neverteless 2 rax is seen quite often, even in tournaments.

this bulid gives you the possibility to be very aggressiv early on and win if your opponent didnt prepare for your attack. its propably not the greatest build if you want to learn how to play a macro game, but is it super extra bad because of that? i dont think so.

and btw, not all of us are master players. i've shown this build to my gf little brother and he just keeps rocking the gold and platin zergs with great pleasure :D

Shanyo

Belgium70 Posts

February 12 2012 12:12 GMT

#142

These look very promising, I'll try them in some custom games vs friends :D.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 12 2012 13:37 GMT

#143

On February 12 2012 19:43 doggy wrote:

Show nested quote +

I guess this build rocks for everything but high master/gm. But dudes, if you ever want to become a better gamer, there is not much sense executing such builds on ladder.

You, like the majority of players, underestimate how quickly you can produce workers with a 16 drone economy, 2 queens and 2 hatcheries. I like having maximized 1base economy to build an army with the goal of taking map control and doing damage. My time to drone is while I'm being aggressive with those units - if I wanted I could make or 3 or 4 drones in the 20s of supply and be even with a player who opens banelings, I could even cut zerglings at 31, but I actually prefer having the extra lings at that stage in the game.

And your comment about becoming a better gamer is not at all true - if you execute only macro-style builds, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. For new and learning players, using a macro style that only works because of extremely well-timed builds and responses to scouting is a way to become frustrated very quickly: You're going to lose a lot of games to timing attacks, and if you make that 80-drone economy you're not likely to have developed the necessary macro/multitasking skills to use it. I strongly recommend styles that centralize on timing attacks and transitions, that keep you active with your units WHILE managing your economy and production. Once you

I firmly argue that if you practice any style enough and perfect it, you can turn it into a viable long-term strategy. Just because IdrA says SC2 is a game of macro and nothing more doesn't mean the whole NA server has to shut themselves off from aggressive styles. If you played a week on the Korean server, you'd see what I mean.

SKGZombie

United States42 Posts

February 12 2012 19:27 GMT

#144

Ive tried this 3 times so far and won 2 out of 3 games. The game I lost my opponent went for a 15 hatch 2 base ling bling all in. Rather than engaging his units at my natural I would counter attack and try and defend with my 2 queens a single spine and whatever reinforcements I could make at home. I managed to kill his natural but shortly thereafter he was able to kill my natural the game just went back and forth with me mostly counter attacking and trying to defend at home with what ever units I could muster but eventually his banes got the best of me and I had to GG. Tang do you have any recommendations for adapting this build to handle a 2 base ling bling all in? Should I slow ling production and play defensive or maybe get a roach warren asap?

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 12 2012 22:44 GMT

#145

On February 13 2012 04:27 SKGZombie wrote:
Ive tried this 3 times so far and won 2 out of 3 games. The game I lost my opponent went for a 15 hatch 2 base ling bling all in. Rather than engaging his units at my natural I would counter attack and try and defend with my 2 queens a single spine and whatever reinforcements I could make at home. I managed to kill his natural but shortly thereafter he was able to kill my natural the game just went back and forth with me mostly counter attacking and trying to defend at home with what ever units I could muster but eventually his banes got the best of me and I had to GG. Tang do you have any recommendations for adapting this build to handle a 2 base ling bling all in? Should I slow ling production and play defensive or maybe get a roach warren asap?

That's a really good question, and I think the way you played it is what I would have done too. You usually won't be able to get roaches out in time to deal with a 2base ling-bane all-in, so I think it's better to constantly build lings and play a counter-attack style every time he moves out to bust you. It turns into a bit of an awkward base-race situation but it's not unwinnable by any means.

ilju

Finland7 Posts

February 12 2012 23:58 GMT

#146

On February 09 2012 08:30 Depetrify wrote:

Show nested quote +

I agree with this. Zerg isn't suppose to be played this way. And most of those people aren't that great, your MMR isn't very high.

It might work often because people don't expect an aggressive zerg.

Can you give us a source or on what is this argument placed on? I personally hate this kind of mindset on any game that your style would be prewritten or something like that. Surely this build isn't meant to be your 100% standard opener at gm level. It's always good to have big bag of tricks with you.

edit: oops sorry didn't read the whole thread I think my point has already been said

doggy

Germany306 Posts

February 13 2012 09:12 GMT

#147

Well Tang youre right. It definitly is kinda frustrating to lose 100000 Games just because u made 2-3 Drones too much, a 10sec too late Baneling Nest or whatever. But that style is the style zerg is supposed to play in my eyes, and its the hardest to learn too. Thats why i dont understand why you would ever focus on allinnish styles if you really want to become better.

Dont get me wrong - i love timing attacks, i love allin builds.. to achieve wins in teamleagues or cups in BO3/5 games. Ofc you can catch up to the dronecount within secs - im also playing the same race dude

But its not just about that. Your drones just have mined less, and you absolutely cant deny that. But thats not the most crucial part, more crucial is the gas which ure lacking since u invested so much in lingpressure. If you can get a round of drones out and your opponent doesnt counterattack you, i guess youre fine then. But doing this you always got a very vurneable timing.

I mean.. there are not just clean macrobuilds like Idra, in fact there are a lot of nice pressure builds which can be refined a lot. But your style is very allinnish, and i wouldnt call it macro oriented play at all. The only real good guide from you in my opinion is the three barrel bust so far againt Terra, and even that is just usefull on short maps with a open natural.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 13 2012 13:51 GMT

#148

On February 13 2012 18:12 doggy wrote:
Well Tang youre right. It definitly is kinda frustrating to lose 100000 Games just because u made 2-3 Drones too much, a 10sec too late Baneling Nest or whatever. But that style is the style zerg is supposed to play in my eyes, and its the hardest to learn too. Thats why i dont understand why you would ever focus on allinnish styles if you really want to become better.

Dont get me wrong - i love timing attacks, i love allin builds.. to achieve wins in teamleagues or cups in BO3/5 games. Ofc you can catch up to the dronecount within secs - im also playing the same race dude

Nearly every guide I've written details a build that I've used successfully at the highest level of NA and EU ladder, and I've also carefully refined transitions to even the most aggressive of builds. SC2 is a lot more about executing a build perfectly than it is about choosing the right build, and my guides describe styles I've spend months refining and perfecting.

Also, it's a misconception that macro play is better for learning purposes than aggressive builds - there's been no data collected that suggests this is true, and I've actually experienced the opposite in my experience coaching. The majority of learning players who use a macro style don't make it to a point in the game where they have a large economy, and when they do they don't have the multitasking to use that large economy.

I'll tell you this - I guarantee I'm more precise with my mineral saturation and economy management than 99% of macro players.

snullbar

17 Posts

February 13 2012 14:38 GMT

#149

Very nice style, i have been doing it all day and it requires a sick amount of multitasking and apm to work.
And when multitasking and apm is what im working on know this is perfect

Bellazuk

Canada146 Posts

February 13 2012 14:50 GMT

#150

Haters gonna hate foreever, awesome guide, well explained ! There's no way you can spit on all-ins, MC 3 time champion of gsl, well respected player does alot of all-ins, aswell as mma, mvp, supernova , leenock. All-in is a very viable option, and after one week on korean ladder, you'll think Na ladder is macro heavy style ladder. The hardest playstyle for a new player would be to play super greedy and have insane micro/decision making to hold any timing push.

SKGZombie

United States42 Posts

February 13 2012 15:08 GMT

#151

Idk if anyone was watching Stephanos stream yesterday but he was using this mass ling opening very successfully on ladder. He picked apart Lowely who opened with an early hatch and sling bling defense. Stephano would run around the blings and go straight for the drones it was pretty awesome to watch.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 13 2012 23:01 GMT

#152

On February 13 2012 23:50 Bellazuk wrote:
The hardest playstyle for a new player would be to play super greedy and have insane micro/decision making to hold any timing push.

I agree 100%. I used to try to play idra-style ZvP, ZvZ, and ZvT because I thought it was the only viable option. I did reach master but it was only when I started experimenting with aggressive strategies that I started feeling comfortable in all matchups.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 13 2012 23:22 GMT

#153

On February 13 2012 23:38 snullbar wrote:
Very nice style, i have been doing it all day and it requires a sick amount of multitasking and apm to work.
And when multitasking and apm is what im working on know this is perfect

If you haven't yet, open this build up in the multitasking trainer and practice it ^^ That's what I do for MTT practice.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 15 2012 20:03 GMT

#154

On February 09 2012 08:31 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Is there a reason every single replay is like over 100 days old?

Current Season 6 Replays:
http://drop.sc/112730
http://drop.sc/112724
http://drop.sc/112726

TelecoM

United States10661 Posts

February 15 2012 20:16 GMT

#155

I'll tell you this - I guarantee I'm more precise with my mineral saturation and economy management than 99% of macro players.

Then why is every single one of you're guides a guide on how to all in? I used to speedling / baneling bust EVERY single ZvZ and I am confident when I say that my baneling micro was probably one of the best , but to say you have better saturation and economy management than 99% of macro players is a ridiculous statement, how can you have better econ / saturation than 99% of macro players, when you all in so much? The fact that you are talking so much about transitions after these all ins is also ridiculous, to transition after an all in would mean you're all in would have to be successful or the opponent would have to be terrible to let you transition, these are the types of all in's that get straight up shut down so easily if the opponent can scout.

These guides are not helping people to improve, they are helping people get BO wins, and I am still in awe that you think you have better mineral saturation and econ management than "99% of macro players" , who are these " macro players" and where can we find them? There is bassically 0 way to prove that statement so it just makes you look ridiculous. It gets kind of sickening when people are posting guides on how to all in, all the time in strategy section.....IMO this is not helping people improve, but whatever floats you're boat.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 15 2012 20:35 GMT

#156

On February 16 2012 05:16 GGzerG wrote:

Show nested quote +

It gets kind of sickening when people are posting guides on how to all in, all the time in strategy section.....IMO this is not helping people improve, but whatever floats you're boat.

You're just letting your own bias and opinion overcome your logic. If it were an all-in build, I would label it an all-in build. Perhaps you're comfortable playing a macro-style in ZvZ, I prefer an aggressive alternative and so do a lot of other players that I'm trying to help. The only thing sickening is your attitude, sir!

pAnatiC

Germany123 Posts

February 16 2012 20:30 GMT

#157

Thanks again for this awesome guide!
Now zvz makes fun and i managed to win against him! :D

6xFPCs

United States412 Posts

February 17 2012 06:57 GMT

#158

On February 16 2012 05:35 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

I would encourage anyone who labels this an all-in to try it. Droning at any point during the build seems to work quite well. This is certainly no worker-pulling no econ all-in, simply a big ling timing followed by a roach+ling.

What I really like about the build is that it gives you a solid build up through your first few injects. Say what you will about the timing attacks; the build optimizes early larva production, and I hope everyone can at least appreciate that much. Whether those larva become lings or drones is your choice.

Thanks for the guide, Tang, and for answering some of my questions earlier.

Aelonius

Netherlands432 Posts

February 17 2012 07:53 GMT

#159

If I read your rant, I read the following question : Why do most zergs go for economy when they can instead of being aggressive?

Exactly because of that. IF we're investing too early in offensive pressure and do not do the damage that would justify the drain on our economy, then we >will< be hardpressed lategame to deal with an opponent of equal skill and awareness. I am not saying it'll be impossible but due to the fact that Zerg requires an upperhand on economy, it's usually much more rewarding and safe if you macro as long as you're able to.

Clarity_nl

Netherlands6826 Posts

February 17 2012 11:53 GMT

#160

On February 16 2012 05:35 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

Even if it were an all-in build, making a guide for it is nothing but helpful to EVERYONE.
The only way macro builds become more solid is by exposing its weaknesses, and adjusting for them.
The only way to expose weaknesses is to test your build against every single all-in ever imagined.

So my question is this, how do you feel you can hold this and come out ahead?

edit: build seems to work smoothly, the only problem I'm having is having enough for my queen when the pool finishes, I'm usually around 110-120 minerals, is this because I don't drone stack or?

Also, in your picture guide it says 17 ovie, instead of 18 ovie

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 17 2012 16:02 GMT

#161

On February 17 2012 05:30 pAnatiC wrote:
Thanks again for this awesome guide!
Now zvz makes fun and i managed to win against him! :D

Yeah yeah you got lucky

venom_x

7 Posts

February 17 2012 16:14 GMT

#162

Always been a lurker, but never bothered posting so here I go.

Hey Tang, you probably don't remember me but I argued with you somewhat recently about the viability of your bling ling drop v P in the ucsl group. On that note I'd like to mention that I actually varied your build somewhat and it does work once in a while and is a nice tool to have under your belt. Also brings me to a question unrelated to this thread -> in your bling drop you start lair at or before the 4:20 mark -> just wondering how exactly you achieve that if you go for a 14/14 speedling expand into lets say a 20/21 expansion. Ive never been able to afford both at the 4:20 mark, record I've made is maybe something like 4:40. But anyways this is a side note and irrelevant.

I've always personally considered your style of play not to be the best for efficient improvement; that is just my opinion. I think its more worth it as a zerg player to constantly play standard, and even if that means losing a million games to timing attacks, that really just expands your arsenal and knowledge of the game as a whole. Zerg is a reactionary race, whether you like that or not, and so simply for that reason in my opinion it's always been worth playing a standard, solid style. That doesn't mean I don't play aggresive, that doesn't mean I don't advocate it either. In fact having aggressive or "all-in" builds under your belt is essential to be a creative, unpredictive, and a good player. But like I said, in my opinion for the zerg race, starting off as a new player and learning that way really doesn't benefit much. In fact, I can even prove to you that even you don't believe that. In a previous comment of yours you stated that even you yourself use to play a macro style and improved at the game and got to masters league, only at which point you started to play aggressive various builds. So, to be honest, I think even you agree that at lower levels it is more efficient to play standard, especially as zerg, and develop mechanics and solid understanding of this game. That's my opinion on the matter and sometimes I've always felt you should advocate and accept, but that doesn't mean you don't have a right to post agressive builds as you see fit. I don't mind reading them, and yes they are helpful, but not for improval as a zerg at lower levels.

Now to this build. To be honest I think this is probably one of your most faulty guides, especially for lower league players. There is no way that anyone at that level can possible micro lings better than their oponent with ling bling, and if they can, it means theyre slipping with their macro. That is just fact, because there isn't enough multitasking capability at that level. Quite frankly I think that really at any level this isn't fully viable with someone of equal skill to the agressor but I guess everyone can make mistakes. However, I'm going to describe to you the way I've played zvz for two straight seasons now, with about a 70-80% win rate. I've already described to you that I think it is more efficient to improve with solid standard build orders and strategies. The way I've been playing ZvZ is simply 15 hatching as much as humanly possible. My zvz is mainly map based and really depends on ramps and the ability to defend my natural. On maps for example like metal, shattered, and shakuras where the ramp choke is small, I always 15 hatch roach. The ramp is easily blocked with 3 roaches, and the rest that I make are used for those annoying ling attemtpts to take down my natural. Once I have enough roaches to easily defend, I drone up and since most of my oponents try this ling style when they do see me go for the 15 hatch roach, they under drone and that makes up for the making of the roaches. It's a fairly micro intensive style (in the early game), and if I make even the smallest mistake of moving my roaches in an unfavourable position I can easily lose. It is a mechanic based strategy and generally allows for me to solidly transition into the mid-game.
Obviously this style is not whatsoever viable on larger maps, roaches are slow and useless in the early game and any competent opponent on a map like TDA, antigua etc. would either just run right by, or surround them while moving out. That was a sever difficulty I had a few seasons ago when the larger maps came into play, I simply didn't know what to do anymore and got lost in zvz on those maps. I tried 14/14 and really just never was that good at it because its always hard to know what to do next - blings, expand etc? But again, I forced myself to find a way to make 15 hatch work. I finally found a solution and have yet to be beaten (in the early game at least) with it. I 15 hatch into 14/14 and rather then going for speed i delay it for the quick bling nest for defense, then get my speed later. Again, I've faced your strategy countless times, and with equal or higher level micro than my oponents, I can still get blings and enough lings and double queens to defend myself for any early ling pressure.

I think at least on the NA server, there is a lot of undesire to open 15 hatch for zergs in zvz. A lot of opponents I face go 14/14 and I always tell them at the end of the game to consider attempting 15 hatch strats for improvement. It really only takes a bit of practice and decent mechanics to hold off early pressure if you are on point with your building timings (which you easily should be in the early game). This is why I don't think your build is all that viable, at least against my playstyle in zvz. Maybe if it's my first game of the day would I lose to such early pressure, and miss micro my defenses, but otherwise I pretty much never lose in the early game in Zvz anymore.

And if you were to ask me what I do against early pools, the obvious answer is I don't 15 hatch. Anything under 14 pool (even a 13 pool) on certain maps can really be pretty much game deciding against a 15 hatch. Which brings me to another fault I seem to see in the community which is that a lot of zergs refuse to drone scout in zvz - I think this is because especially at high/pro level players are confident that their micro will keep them alive even against the earliest of pools and so they find it an advantage to keep that drone mining. But that is simply something I don't understand, why not early scout and if you see an early pool simply drop yours 1/2 supply later and you are already economically ahead and can defend the pressure.

Anyways, sorry for the long post. Generally I like your guides and even though I am by no means a good player I like to try some of them out once in a while to see if they are viable for my own style, or if they are just a good tool for me to pull out in a BoX series. But this one (at least for myself) is really not viable under any circumstance and I don't ever lose to any early pressure in zvz like this unless my mechanics aren't up to par yet for the day.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 17 2012 18:14 GMT

#163

On February 17 2012 15:57 6xFPCs wrote:

Show nested quote +

True, the build I've detailed in this thread is very low-econ. I've stated, like you mention, that you can drone anytime you feel safe - the idea to take away is exactly that. Drone when you're safe!

Hossinaut

United States453 Posts

February 17 2012 18:29 GMT

#164

I don't understand the perpetual need to be aggressive. Why not be aggressive at specific times TO FORCE ERRORS rather than to kill them? Watching Korean pro streams and the GSL, if they have the opportunity, they'll kill you. If they do not, they'll try to do damage, killing drones, parts of your army, making you be everywhere so that somewhere you'll get messed up. Why is this not preferable to ALWAYS AGRESS UPON THINE ENEMY! If you simply force mistakes, you can force a position of strength from which you may win the game. Why put yourself into a situation of vulnerability of your aggression fails? I don't understand the reasoning, as it seems to just be win win win go go go agress agress agress rather than an emphasis on actual tangible improvement.

Daggeroth

Australia2 Posts

February 18 2012 08:55 GMT

#165

Hey Tang, awesome ZvT and ZvZ guides, I was wondering if you had a ZvP build similar to these that go for early aggression? It's my worst matchup at the moment. Thanks

decaf

Austria1797 Posts

February 18 2012 09:15 GMT

#166

On February 18 2012 03:29 Hossinaut wrote:
I don't understand the perpetual need to be aggressive. Why not be aggressive at specific times TO FORCE ERRORS rather than to kill them? Watching Korean pro streams and the GSL, if they have the opportunity, they'll kill you. If they do not, they'll try to do damage, killing drones, parts of your army, making you be everywhere so that somewhere you'll get messed up. Why is this not preferable to ALWAYS AGRESS UPON THINE ENEMY! If you simply force mistakes, you can force a position of strength from which you may win the game. Why put yourself into a situation of vulnerability of your aggression fails? I don't understand the reasoning, as it seems to just be win win win go go go agress agress agress rather than an emphasis on actual tangible improvement.

I agree. Allins are not the right way to learn this game. Sure you take some wins off players better than you, but you do not deserve those wins, because you bank on your opponent simply not scouting you most of the time.
If you all in in a game and it's not a reacionary all in you will learn nothing from this game - there is no conclusion to be drawn. Sure you will become better at the all in, but you will lack game knowledge and proper mechanics, which _definitely_ is going to keep you from improving huge time. You place higher than you actually shoulld, because your start is easier to execute, which creates the illusion that leads into thinking you've actually improved. In the gsl there is no player who all ins every game and doesn't know how to play a proper game and there's a reason why that is.
Sure, someone will argue "but it's a great build to have if you're playing a bo3", to be quite honest, how many players actually do play bo3s on a regular basis?

In my opinion the only thing that is to be learned from Tang is Bumping Relentlessly. All those wacky strats at the top of the sc2 strategy sections actually don't make me want to come here anymore.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 18 2012 15:31 GMT

#167

On February 18 2012 18:15 decaf wrote:

Show nested quote +

If you think players don't "deserve" wins because they play aggressively, or that there's only one "right way" to learn the game, then that's fine! You're entitled to your own opinion and if you want to play exclusively macro or write guides that are macro-focused, that's your choice. I write guides on styles that have helped my students and I improve some of the key mechanics in SC2. These builds are all based on executing an attack so that you can seize map control, scout, and respond. All these very aggressive styles require you to constantly move out an army while managing your base economy/production, which is in my experience one of the most important/underdeveloped skills for the majority of players.

The fact is simple: macro teaches you game sense and the ability to be "reactive," but for learning players this is not as important as just being able to execute a basic attack. There is no evidence to support any of your arguments. For you to say you don't frequent the forums because of posts like mine is very rude, I spend a lot of my time writing guides, making tutorials, and helping people improve. In general I've received a lot of support from the SC2 community.

For the people who say zerg can only play macro, I say "Yeah? Then why do your ladder points belong to me?"

decaf

Austria1797 Posts

February 18 2012 16:06 GMT

#168

On February 19 2012 00:31 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

And then you realize ladder points don't equal skill.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 18 2012 16:15 GMT

#169

On February 19 2012 01:06 decaf wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 19 2012 00:31 TangSC wrote:

On February 18 2012 18:15 decaf wrote:

And then you realize ladder points don't equal skill.

If you get a promotion because you're a great macro player, you've become more skilled and you deserve the promotion.
If you get a promotion because you're a great at 6-pooling, you've become more skilled and you deserve the promotion.

I would congratulate the 6pooler and the macro player, and encourage both players to keep playing the style that appeals to them most.

pAnatiC

Germany123 Posts

February 18 2012 16:16 GMT

#170

On February 18 2012 01:02 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yeah yeah you got lucky

ya, i guess too

was really hard to hold your attacks but then i was way ahead in upgrades

hope we will see us again

RampancyTW

United States577 Posts

February 18 2012 16:20 GMT

#171

Nobody is saying zerg can only play macro. But there's a big difference between solid, aggressive play and most of the builds you've posted. My issue with most of these guides is that they're not reactive builds designed to exploit scouted weaknesses (which is where aggressive play kicks in). They essentially amount to pre-determined cheeses with a stunted economy, which is where you get most of your complaints from. You'll get a ton of BO-win ladder points with builds like these if opponents don't scout and respond correctly, or are playing too greedy, but unless you inflict significant damage there is zero benefit to doing a build like this. "Map control" is entirely arbitrary unless you're specifically controlling for/against THINGS.

I would love and fully support a guide from you about, for example, establishing a quick third with a decent economy and then turning on a goddamn Zerg killswitch of fury when you spot weaknesses in your opponents' defenses. That would be an AWESOME, comprehensive guide for aggressive Zerg play, and most importantly it would establish all of the basic economic and tech pieces that a Zerg would need to transition afterwards. THAT is solid play. Guides like these are gimmicky. They may be good gimmicks, bad gimmicks, whatever-- the important thing is that they're gimmicks.

nface

106 Posts

February 18 2012 16:21 GMT

#172

On February 19 2012 01:15 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 19 2012 01:06 decaf wrote:

On February 19 2012 00:31 TangSC wrote:

On February 18 2012 18:15 decaf wrote:

And then you realize ladder points don't equal skill.

Yeah... that makes like no sense. How exactly did the guy who 6 pools all the time get more skill?

Iksf

United Kingdom444 Posts

February 18 2012 16:21 GMT

#173

Say for example that a terran player can win almost every game by making a barracks and rallying marines at you on attack move. This is for whatever reason a very strong strategy that is almost unholdable. So your a terran player doing this and you get to 1000 pt masters or whatever. Another terran player gets to 1000 pt masters without touching this strategy and always going for longer complex games with other harder to execute longterm strategies. Who is the better player?

Ainvar

United States68 Posts

February 18 2012 16:33 GMT

#174

On February 19 2012 01:21 nface wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 19 2012 01:15 TangSC wrote:

On February 19 2012 01:06 decaf wrote:

On February 19 2012 00:31 TangSC wrote:

On February 18 2012 18:15 decaf wrote:

And then you realize ladder points don't equal skill.

Yeah... that makes like no sense. How exactly did the guy who 6 pools all the time get more skill?

Because to beat a Masters level player with a 6-pool it means you have better micro or decision making.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 18 2012 16:53 GMT

#175

On February 19 2012 01:21 nface wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 19 2012 01:15 TangSC wrote:

On February 19 2012 01:06 decaf wrote:

On February 19 2012 00:31 TangSC wrote:

On February 18 2012 18:15 decaf wrote:

And then you realize ladder points don't equal skill.

Yeah... that makes like no sense. How exactly did the guy who 6 pools all the time get more skill?

It's a different set of skills, but there's no reason one should be held in higher esteem than the other. Both need to be honed if you want to improve.

nface

106 Posts

February 18 2012 17:02 GMT

#176

On February 19 2012 01:53 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 19 2012 01:21 nface wrote:

On February 19 2012 01:15 TangSC wrote:

On February 19 2012 01:06 decaf wrote:

On February 19 2012 00:31 TangSC wrote:

On February 18 2012 18:15 decaf wrote:

And then you realize ladder points don't equal skill.

Yeah... that makes like no sense. How exactly did the guy who 6 pools all the time get more skill?

It's a different set of skills, but there's no reason one should be held in higher esteem than the other. Both need to be honed if you want to improve.

If you really think that, then that would explain why you call your builds macro aggression instead of all ins. And thus you have like no knowledge about this game and cant be paid attention to.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 18 2012 17:04 GMT

#177

On February 19 2012 01:20 RampancyTW wrote:
Nobody is saying zerg can only play macro. But there's a big difference between solid, aggressive play and most of the builds you've posted. My issue with most of these guides is that they're not reactive builds designed to exploit scouted weaknesses (which is where aggressive play kicks in). They essentially amount to pre-determined cheeses with a stunted economy, which is where you get most of your complaints from. You'll get a ton of BO-win ladder points with builds like these if opponents don't scout and respond correctly, or are playing too greedy, but unless you inflict significant damage there is zero benefit to doing a build like this. "Map control" is entirely arbitrary unless you're specifically controlling for/against THINGS.

I would love and fully support a guide from you about, for example, establishing a quick third with a decent economy and then turning on a goddamn Zerg killswitch of fury when you spot weaknesses in your opponents' defenses. That would be an AWESOME, comprehensive guide for aggressive Zerg play, and most importantly it would establish all of the basic economic and tech pieces that a Zerg would need to transition afterwards. THAT is solid play. Guides like these are gimmicky. They may be good gimmicks, bad gimmicks, whatever-- the important thing is that they're gimmicks.

The words "gimmick, allin, cheese" etc are, in my opinion, useless words. Everyone has a different opinion of what the definitions are. The point is, it's not always what which style you choose, it's about doing the style perfectly. There's a vast skill gap between a master using the builds I've outlined and a silver player using them. I could just as easily argue that my builds are "solid" because they put your opponent on the back foot while you drone/respond to the information your attack gives you, and that playing defensive "macro" style with roaches is not particularly helpful because you're not multitasking and your units are too slow to scout.

In short, I really don't think there should be so many unwritten rules about which strategy is correct to employ or any negative associations with builds that deviate from what some people have come to accept as "standard".

llKenZyll

United States853 Posts

February 18 2012 17:13 GMT

#178

On February 09 2012 08:24 pac.558 wrote:
i don't like the fact that all these stategies are based on your opponent sucking

I agree.

RampancyTW

United States577 Posts

February 18 2012 17:51 GMT

#179

On February 19 2012 02:04 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

I don't frown upon cheese or all-ins in regards to them being cheese or all-ins. I dislike your builds because they stunt so much tech and economy for army early on, which FORCES you to do significant damage with them to even have a chance of winning.

"Solid" styles have a pretty universally accepted definition: Builds/styles that will work even if your opponent knows they are coming, because their effectiveness is determined almost entirely by the execution of the user relative to the execution of the opponent.

Your builds sacrifice the tools needed to enter the midgame in a good position if you don't do enormous damage. THAT does not come down to arbitrary labeling. That does not come down to anything other than the fact that you blindly cut economy and tech in favor of a big fat army that may or may not do damage. Tech will ALWAYS help you. Economy will ALWAYS help you. A big army now, if it sacrifices the other two, does not help you at ALL if you can't do heavy damage with it.

The issue is NOT that you don't play a macro style. The issue is that you play a GIMMICKY style (that you do not acknowledge as gimmicky), as opposed to a solid aggressive style.

NostalgiaTag

Canada508 Posts

February 18 2012 17:55 GMT

#180

Tang you may want to put zergling speed in the "opening build order" section. Its kinda imporant, probibly left out on accident

I'm assuming that you wanted to make speed @100 gas then pull drones off gass till roaches?

Clarity_nl

Netherlands6826 Posts

February 18 2012 19:19 GMT

#181

On February 19 2012 02:55 NostalgiaTag wrote:
Tang you may want to put zergling speed in the "opening build order" section. Its kinda imporant, probibly left out on accident

I'm assuming that you wanted to make speed @100 gas then pull drones off gass till roaches?

Yeah, pull at 100 gas, start speed after 18 ovie, before 6 lings.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 18 2012 19:20 GMT

#182

On February 19 2012 02:51 RampancyTW wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 19 2012 02:04 TangSC wrote:

You can know this build is coming and still lose, we can play a BO5 anytime you like and I'll use this opening each game.

llKenZyll

United States853 Posts

February 18 2012 20:23 GMT

#183

On February 19 2012 04:20 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 19 2012 02:51 RampancyTW wrote:

On February 19 2012 02:04 TangSC wrote:

You can know this build is coming and still lose, we can play a BO5 anytime you like and I'll use this opening each game.

Lol, time to whip out the dicks and see whose is biggest.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 18 2012 20:28 GMT

#184

On February 19 2012 05:23 llKenZyll wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 19 2012 04:20 TangSC wrote:

On February 19 2012 02:51 RampancyTW wrote:

On February 19 2012 02:04 TangSC wrote:

You can know this build is coming and still lose, we can play a BO5 anytime you like and I'll use this opening each game.

Lol, time to whip out the dicks and see whose is biggest.

I'm just making a point.

llKenZyll

United States853 Posts

February 18 2012 20:29 GMT

#185

On February 19 2012 05:28 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 19 2012 05:23 llKenZyll wrote:

On February 19 2012 04:20 TangSC wrote:

On February 19 2012 02:51 RampancyTW wrote:

On February 19 2012 02:04 TangSC wrote:

You can know this build is coming and still lose, we can play a BO5 anytime you like and I'll use this opening each game.

Lol, time to whip out the dicks and see whose is biggest.

I'm just making a point. Also Kenzy, I would really prefer you kept those types of remarks to yourself, judging from the comments from your reddit account (and the fact that you were banned twice), I really don't think you have anything constructive to contribute: http://www.reddit.com/user/llKENZYll

Relevance.

Chaosvuistje

Netherlands2581 Posts

February 18 2012 20:33 GMT

#186

This seems to have a really late gas :/ I doubt this would work well against a 10 pool baneling all in. That's all I'm going to say, judging from the length of the thread there has no doubt been more than enough discussion about the actual build.

Clarity_nl

Netherlands6826 Posts

February 18 2012 20:37 GMT

#187

On February 19 2012 05:33 Chaosvuistje wrote:
This seems to have a really late gas :/ I doubt this would work well against a 10 pool baneling all in. That's all I'm going to say, judging from the length of the thread there has no doubt been more than enough discussion about the actual build.

The only way I have trouble with any kind of early pool is when my overlord doesnt spot the lings incoming, since the build is pretty tight, you need to spend your two free food on lings instead of a queen (16-18).

I'm not sure if it's ok relying on overlord scout patterns, but it seems from the way tang plays that his first two ovies are spread in a way to see the lings coming, even if that means he won't see hatch first untill his ling arrives. (which I think is fine since spines finish in time if you scout no expo).

My question still stand though Tang: When my pool finishes I tend to be around 80-100 minerals (cant build a queen straight away) even with drone stacking, is this normal or am I missing something?

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 18 2012 21:01 GMT

#188

On February 19 2012 05:37 Clarity_nl wrote:
My question still stand though Tang: When my pool finishes I tend to be around 80-100 minerals (cant build a queen straight away) even with drone stacking, is this normal or am I missing something?

That's normal clarity - should have to wait about 5 seconds. If it bothers you, you can skip one drone and go to 16 instead of 17 before expo.

Clarity_nl

Netherlands6826 Posts

February 18 2012 21:05 GMT

#189

On February 19 2012 06:01 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

That's normal clarity - should have to wait about 5 seconds. If it bothers you, you can skip one drone and go to 16 instead of 17 before expo.

But when you crunch the numbers, the 16th drone beats the faster inject? I guess it all comes down to the first queen being able to inject the natural once it finishes.
It just bothers me because it doesn't feel smooth, but right after that moment it's baby-skin levels.

edit: I haven't encountered it yet but how do you deal with baneling expands? From theorycrafting it feels like you cant force alot more units, nor can you catch up in drones.... I think.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 18 2012 21:06 GMT

#190

On February 19 2012 06:05 Clarity_nl wrote:

Show nested quote +

It'd be nice if you could get to 150 minerals right when pool finishes, but you do have exactly 16 drones mining 2 per patch so the slight delay doesn't hurt you.

Sajaki

Canada1135 Posts

February 18 2012 21:11 GMT

#191

God i love this build.
I used to play random, but eventually grew away from zerg due to my absolute hatred of ZvZ. Now i can comfortably say that ZvZ is my favorite and best zerg matchup. Whilst i am now full-time Terran (terran for life <3) Thanks for one hell of a build i can use when i offrace <3

dejeseAI

Mexico32 Posts

February 19 2012 01:27 GMT

#192

We need more people like you on the AM servers Tang, amazing guides, great playing style

Schnullerbacke13

Germany1199 Posts

February 19 2012 14:59 GMT

#193

Hi Tang,

I played around a bit with this build and to be honest the 15 pool opening is pretty suboptimal for the purpose of a 16 drone sling rush. You can get 30-34 lings out ~20..30 in game seconds earlier (while still having an expansion).

critics:

* 16 drones cannot support 2 injected hatches ling production. You actually need only one queen. your build requires 2 queens since you stockpile ressources due to the late pool.
* since you stop droning at 16, there is no need to get the expansion super early (no oversaturation anyway). It is sufficient to put it down ~3'30.

Your 15 pool queen spawns at 4'20. With an 11 pool before ovie at this time you will already have the first spawn larvae finished (2cnd one halfway done).

Better build order (regarding early ling production):

10 extractor trick
11 pool (1'22 ^^)
10 ovie, then another extractor trick to 11
14 extractor (when pool is 70..80% complete)
13 queen
15 a pair of lings, scout opponent with them (~2'40), 3 drones on gas
17 ovie (delays exp, but safe against an early rush, you also may drone to 18 put exe then 17 ovie)
17 put expansion + first inject. take drones from gas, start speed.
16 build 3 more drones (you now have 16)
22 lings + ovies

at 5'40 speed finishes, this build gets 18 lings + 14 underway. at 6'00 you can have 30-34 lings (in your replays 15 pool reaches this ~6'30 to 6'40).

1 queen + 2 hatches can support the income of 16 drones if you inject properly (in case energy stockpiles, just shift inject bothe hatches).

Basically the build trades more larvae against less early income, but that is what you need if you are going for a ling heavy style. Additionally it is pretty cheese proof, your early lings frequently can kill a drone scout and can be used to scout themselfes (2 lings = 2 scouts for the price of one).

One can play around with the scnd ovie/exp timing, i haven't tested what is optimal until now.

note: maybe a regular ovie before 11 pool is even better, i did not test that cause i love my 1'22 pool with early pair of lings

Mahtasooma

Germany475 Posts

February 19 2012 15:14 GMT

#194

I'd really like to hear Tang's comment on the above post, as I, too, feel the build too unstable against early pools (despite having seen your guides).

Your first lings are very very late and the supply block is just too unsafe and long (although it doesn't hurt you economically, but that's not the point). An 11 pool feels safer and if you can get the same results and timings, you should go for that. I will try the above BO, too.

ODKStevez

Ireland1225 Posts

February 19 2012 15:16 GMT

#195

This is a very different style than normal Zerg, the replays are good but it still feels really strange not droning as much to me.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 19 2012 16:39 GMT

#196

On February 20 2012 00:14 Mahtasooma wrote:

I'd really like to hear Tang's comment on the above post, as I, too, feel the build too unstable against early pools (despite having seen your guides).

You're better off doing a 14g/14p speedling expand or 13pool 14gas if you have trouble with early pools

Schnullerbacke13

Germany1199 Posts

February 19 2012 16:46 GMT

#197

On February 20 2012 01:39 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

You're better off doing a 14g/14p speedling expand or 13pool 14gas if you have trouble with early pools

srry, regarding ling count @ time this is not true. The gas timing in the build i listed is identical to yours. 14g14p is ok as a general purpose opening, but not for an optimzed 16 drones sling rush build. its about maxing on larvae, not income. I'll provide a replay later.

edit: http://drop.sc/115491

speed done ~5'40
22 slings @ 5'40
34 slings @ 6'00

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 19 2012 18:18 GMT

#198

On February 20 2012 01:46 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:

Show nested quote +

I still think the income of the 15/15/17 is better, 42 ling at 6min

DarKFoRcE

Germany1215 Posts

February 19 2012 18:59 GMT

#199

On February 19 2012 04:20 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 19 2012 02:51 RampancyTW wrote:

On February 19 2012 02:04 TangSC wrote:

You can know this build is coming and still lose, we can play a BO5 anytime you like and I'll use this opening each game.

im up for it.

Schnullerbacke13

Germany1199 Posts

February 19 2012 19:06 GMT

#200

On February 20 2012 03:18 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

I still think the income of the 15/15/17 is better, 42 ling at 6min

Checked 4 first replays you provided, you are at 28-32 lings at 6'00 (the 32 one you were supply blocked, if you would have built an ovie, you'd have 2 less). I accounted for lings lost.
It's not that a big deal, however the earlier pool builds will give you an edge in ling count.
In practice the extra queen ofc has a strategic value, however 4..6 lings more can make a difference too.

Its true, the initial income is better (i did not doubt this), but this does not help as you float minerals for some time due to the lack of larvae up to 6'00.
Your build would peak (mathematically) at a slightly later push time with a 22-25 drones economy, so you actually can spend the larvae from 2 injected bases.

Glurkenspurk

United States1915 Posts

February 19 2012 19:23 GMT

#201

On February 19 2012 05:28 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 19 2012 05:23 llKenZyll wrote:

On February 19 2012 04:20 TangSC wrote:

On February 19 2012 02:51 RampancyTW wrote:

On February 19 2012 02:04 TangSC wrote:

You can know this build is coming and still lose, we can play a BO5 anytime you like and I'll use this opening each game.

Lol, time to whip out the dicks and see whose is biggest.

...Did you actually go on reddit and look up this guy's account to find a way to insult him? You are insane.

Hossinaut

United States453 Posts

February 19 2012 19:28 GMT

#202

I'd love to see Tang play against DarkFoRcE in a BO5 concerning this strategy.
Please provide replays or VODs when complete <3 :D

EDIT: agrees with guy above me

solidbebe

Netherlands4921 Posts

February 19 2012 19:36 GMT

#203

On February 19 2012 05:23 llKenZyll wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 19 2012 04:20 TangSC wrote:

On February 19 2012 02:51 RampancyTW wrote:

On February 19 2012 02:04 TangSC wrote:

You can know this build is coming and still lose, we can play a BO5 anytime you like and I'll use this opening each game.

Lol, time to whip out the dicks and see whose is biggest.

This made me laugh for a solid minute hahaha!

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 19 2012 19:39 GMT

#204

On February 20 2012 04:23 Odal wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 19 2012 05:28 TangSC wrote:

On February 19 2012 05:23 llKenZyll wrote:

On February 19 2012 04:20 TangSC wrote:

On February 19 2012 02:51 RampancyTW wrote:

On February 19 2012 02:04 TangSC wrote:

You can know this build is coming and still lose, we can play a BO5 anytime you like and I'll use this opening each game.

Lol, time to whip out the dicks and see whose is biggest.

...Did you actually go on reddit and look up this guy's account to find a way to insult him? You are insane.

Lol no, I'm friends with one of the reddit mods and he told me the story of how Kenzy keeps remaking new accounts so that he can troll people, but they don't IP ban like Team Liquid

audist

United States136 Posts

February 20 2012 05:40 GMT

#205

Disregarding the thread hate, I thought that this guide was a great way to improve your zergling micro vs banelings. That's just how I, as a platinum, feel about this guide! Thanks for doing this, Tang~

AndyPandyPie

United Kingdom11 Posts

February 20 2012 11:02 GMT

#206

I don't understand why so many people are hating on Tang for producing this guide, you're not forced to use it and if you believe you can easily counter it, then good for you. In the right hands making the correct transitions based on what you scout, I think it could be deadly at all levels of play, which is partly proven by him taking down high calibre players in the replays. I think everyone here agrees that playing a macro style is the most effective way to improve at the game, but that's not to say that specialised builds like this don't have a place for players of all skills. Their use in BoX formats is great, and it's undeniable that niche skill sets like ling micro will benefit from using it, which will in turn improve your play overall. I think it's a great build to be well-versed in, and I (like many others, I'm sure) really appreciate the time he's spent on the guides. Cheers Tang, great job!

ETisME

12309 Posts

February 20 2012 11:21 GMT

#207

I think the most fun part about zerg is that it doesn't follow a very strict build order and so you get to figure out a good way to transition into something safe/economical/aggression
So I won't really recommend anyone going for this because you would better off playing more games, learning more about the matchup and then get your own transition. Then you can understand the build and the reason why this timing is good for another aggression etc.

stichlasser

69 Posts

February 20 2012 11:37 GMT

#208

Im a gold player and if theres one thing i can say about this build:

it helps improving your micro against banelings by a lot (eg. target fire with queen/spinecrawler).

Maybe the build doesnt work vs all GM/M players and not all the time, but if your micro is bad (like mine) you can improve your ZvZ with this pretty good. If its not your style, to sometimes play an aggressive (somewhat all-in) stlye, dont do it. I tried to win games without beeing kinda cheesy or all-in-ing for a long time. Then I accepted it as part of the game.

TechnoZerg

Australia75 Posts

February 20 2012 13:28 GMT

#209

darkforce vs tang bo5 gogogo

monkeycid

Sweden44 Posts

February 20 2012 14:39 GMT

#210

While I always love a nice macro game myself and essentially never rush (a weakness!), I think that this guide seems pretty dang reasonable - it should certainly not have drawn such ferocious hate. I would also be very wary against statements such as "<race x> is meant to be played in <style y>"; while "Zerg is a reactive race." it a useful in-game heuristic, I think getting stuck on it when considering builds can really limit your potential. What's the constructive value of categorically dismissing a whole set of builds because of some preconception?

Having said that, I don't think this is the end-all of Zerg builds - but it's not presented as such either!. I think it can be a great thing to break out in a BOx and for teaching aggression and micro on the ladder. Thank you for the well-written guide, mr Tang - I'm sure it'll help me figure out ZvZ better, and once I've mastered it it'll have a nice place in my toolbox.

lhr0909

United States562 Posts

February 20 2012 15:24 GMT

#211

Dear Tang,

I know you are a talented player, these builds are great, but I think you want to consider the following:

These builds are only good for players with good mechanics. If injects are lacking, these builds are useless, and become very weak. And the opening phase is highly micro heavy. It is not a bad build, but it is neither a 100% guaranteed win or a stable safe opening.

Since these builds gets laughed at by higher level players, and not suitable for lower level players who lack mechanics. Why don't you go ahead and design some builds that are less dependent on mechanics and safe, and at the same time, talk about when to power units and attack, and when to drone a bit and plan for another attack. This is more important for a ZvZ matchup in my honest opinion. I am a diamond zerg player and my ZvZ is bad because I never know when to drone and when to make units. I have been trying to figure it out and go for safer builds like hatch first into defensive baneling, then look for a timing window and baneling counter bust him while droning up behind. I think these kinds of concepts are far more important for both lower level players and higher level players. And I am pretty sure you know that pretty well too. Because you know when to drone when your attack is failing and starting to plan for another attack.

I have tried your builds (2 hatch ling all-in), and I had mild success until got hardcore shut down by good baneling spread (not even micro), then I started to go hatch first into defensive banelings, once I shut down a ling flood, I immediately counter push and drone a bit behind. It is just so much more affective, and I can even say that I all-in after I hold off the initial push. Maybe you should teach how to identify when to all-in. :D

gl hf on being influential in the community!

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 20 2012 18:09 GMT

#212

On February 21 2012 00:24 lhr0909 wrote:
Dear Tang,

I know you are a talented player, these builds are great, but I think you want to consider the following:

These builds are only good for players with good mechanics. If injects are lacking, these builds are useless, and become very weak. And the opening phase is highly micro heavy. It is not a bad build, but it is neither a 100% guaranteed win or a stable safe opening.

The style is much stronger for players with good mechanics, sure, but it's also a way to improve injects/multitasking/micro. I don't think any build is a guaranteed win. In my personal experience, I've felt the most safe/stable when using this build as opposed to defensive roach or baneling openings.

Hossinaut

United States453 Posts

February 20 2012 20:32 GMT

#213

Saying that it's weak if you do it wrong, so that forces people to do it correctly and get better is a false assumption. People will simply die and not know why. People don't so much understand how to analyze and how to improve, because if they did, they wouldn't need your guides. Saying its strong if done correctly is nice, but when those that can do it right say its weak comparatively, it may be something that's not mega worthwhile. As its only strong if done correctly, it's not worthwhile for people in lower leagues with lower ability to execute, as they will once again, simply die.

I am not nor have I been trying to hate, and my references to "people" are in reference to the majority of players that are not in masters or GM.

Similarly, I do not entirely understand why you do not accept the gimmicky/allin nature of your proposed guides, etc, as in several of your guides you manage to get a third up before even half saturation, just so you can say you have 3 bases. Same goes with getting your natural up early- its done without a thought to actually saturating those bases in a timely manner.

Tribuno

Italy261 Posts

February 20 2012 21:43 GMT

#214

i m high diamond player EU, i ve tryed this build in every single ZvZ in the last week i think.. in some cases it works really really well and it's really difficult to stop it (roach expand, roach ling, only ling for example) but vs baneling i really can win only if i arrive at his base and he has not baneling yet..

finally i think its viable build but it is not really solid and, at my level and with my micro, i have too many difficulties vs baneling because 3 baneling with good control can stop it pretty easy.. so i'll use it sometimes maybe in the future but i'll go for more solid build in the most of cases. Anyway thanks tang

Katastrophe

United States23 Posts

February 20 2012 21:52 GMT

#215

Gold/Plat Zerg here, so take my opinion/comments/whatever at the worth you'll deem them.

I think I've read most (if not all) of the guides Tang has posted here, and they always get flamed for being gimmicky/all-in/etc which I can't dispute 100%. In this one, for example, your Part 3 video for "What to do if the Roach/sling push fails?" is pretty much "Get another hatch, +1 upgrade, and try again". Day9 has said many times something to the extent of pushes like these will become slightly less effective over time - exponential decay, diminishing returns, whatever you want to call it - and the trick is to know when you've maxed your potential and transition out of it... typically, I like Roach/Festor but I've also done Roach/Hydra or Sling/Festor in ZvZ, depending on where I stand with resources and what they're doing. That's my only real criticism is that this guide (and some of your others) offer no suggestions on how to get into Lair tech and go from there and instead seem to focus on forcing your opponent to react to what you're doing, rather then for you to react to what they're doing. It reminds me a bit of campaign zerg.

What I can say is that I agree with you that to write this off as gimmicky/all-in/cheese is wrong - it's definitely a style. I have ALWAYS (and I mean always) hated the sling/bling micro wars of ZvZ... primarily because I was never really good at them. I usually opted to use sling, spines, and queens defensively while I go for two base into Roaches and just skip the baneling step entirely. I have since opted for using a similar style to the one you suggest to deny their expansion and get my two base economy up to try and stay a base ahead of them, rather then just playing defensively.

All in all, the guide is well written and the videos offer great general advice and tips (at least for lower league players) and provides a good skeleton for those who hate sling/bling wars, such as myself. Seeing as the style I developed isn't too far at all from this, I appreciated the subtle hints of how to react if I don't scout that expo or how to deal with early pools.

I feel that my previous mindset of "Their expo is killed, time to get to roaches" doesn't mesh with my opener, so I will certainly be attempting to keep up with my aggression... although I highly doubt if a roach/sling push failed, I'll transition into a macro hatch and an upgrade. I typically spine hard and go into a muta play (if I can beat them to it) or sling/festor (if they're going muta).

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 20 2012 22:04 GMT

#216

On February 21 2012 06:52 Katastrophe wrote:
That's my only real criticism is that this guide (and some of your others) offer no suggestions on how to get into Lair tech and go from there and instead seem to focus on forcing your opponent to react to what you're doing, rather then for you to react to what they're doing. It reminds me a bit of campaign zerg.

That's a good point, I don't often talk about the more macro-oriented transitions but when you're using any aggressive style, you need to know mid/late game macro for the matches that make it to that point. In general, I go 2base mutalisk so that I again have the map control to drone/take a 3rd. Once I have about 8-10 mutas, I switch to infestor / roach / upgrades and eventually when my 3rd is established I go for hydras mixed with roaches til maxed.

For example:
http://drop.sc/116315

Katastrophe

United States23 Posts

February 21 2012 02:09 GMT

#217

On February 21 2012 07:04 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

See, if you had made this Part Three, I think a lot of people would consider it more "legitimate".
That replay alone shows much more 'game sense' then what the OP leads one to believe, as far as 'the next step'.
Your guides are always well organized and easy to comprehend to even lower league players, but this sort of example of a follow up definitely opens the doors for those less experienced.

All in all, it's an aggressive style, no doubt. Although it may not be for everyone, I prefer it oppose to the more "macro until last possible minute" styles.
My last question is your suggested build order. Like I mentioned before, I sort of stumbled across a similar style while laddering that keeps the same core concept of getting gas enough for speed, stop droning at 16 Drones, expand, and mass zerglings. However, I use a 14g/14p/20h as oppose to your suggested 15p/15g/17h.

Aside from a slightly delayed attack time due to the slower hatch, why do you opt for your order? Do you consider your order to be 'optimized' or is it a matter of preference? I apologize if I'm asking too many "newb" questions.

Cotillion37

Canada94 Posts

February 21 2012 07:15 GMT

#218

On February 21 2012 11:09 Katastrophe wrote:

Aside from a slightly delayed attack time due to the slower hatch, why do you opt for your order? Do you consider your order to be 'optimized' or is it a matter of preference? I apologize if I'm asking too many "newb" questions.

It's probably this way to optimize larvae. I'll test both builds out and see.

VisiO789

United States7 Posts

February 21 2012 09:13 GMT

#219

This is just what i need thank you so much for this Tang!!!!

wishr

Russian Federation262 Posts

February 21 2012 11:46 GMT

#220

Hey Tang, gj with dat guide and others. Just wanna ask u smthing... Do u have plans at writing a few ZvP guides?

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

February 21 2012 12:54 GMT

#221

I think a lot of posters here are overstating the need for mechanics and micro with this style. I'm in platinum myself, I'm hardly a fantastic player, yet I almost always go for mass ling in ZvZ. Your mechanics only have to be good until the 6 minute mark if it goes well, and how hard is that? As for micro, microing speedlings vs banelings is not easy, but it's hard as hell to use banelings effectively vs lings as well, so even if you're required to micro, you also force your opponent to do the same.. and while you only have to keep building lings, he has to build lings AND morph them into banes at a safe location. If his micro isn't all that great, neither does your have to be, just a move, box most of your lings and move back... the few lings you didn't box will run in and his banelings will blow up on them.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 21 2012 16:24 GMT

#222

On February 21 2012 21:54 Tobberoth wrote:
I think a lot of posters here are overstating the need for mechanics and micro with this style. I'm in platinum myself, I'm hardly a fantastic player, yet I almost always go for mass ling in ZvZ. Your mechanics only have to be good until the 6 minute mark if it goes well, and how hard is that? As for micro, microing speedlings vs banelings is not easy, but it's hard as hell to use banelings effectively vs lings as well, so even if you're required to micro, you also force your opponent to do the same.. and while you only have to keep building lings, he has to build lings AND morph them into banes at a safe location. If his micro isn't all that great, neither does your have to be, just a move, box most of your lings and move back... the few lings you didn't box will run in and his banelings will blow up on them.

That's a good point. You can also a-move, shift-click one-two lings, then pull back to avoid boxing (I prefer boxing like you mention). I think you're right that people underestimate the amount of micro needed to use banelings effectively, so if you're having trouble keeping up with macro because you're microing your zerglings, you have to remember your opponent's macro may also slip while controlling his banelings.

Celadan

Norway471 Posts

February 21 2012 18:09 GMT

#223

im sorry, ive tried this style plenty of times on ladder and i can confirm that it looses to a player that can micro his banes...
he can have half the ling count as long as he has like 4 banes to accompany that.

Clarity_nl

Netherlands6826 Posts

February 21 2012 19:42 GMT

#224

On February 22 2012 03:09 Celadan wrote:
im sorry, ive tried this style plenty of times on ladder and i can confirm that it looses to a player that can micro his banes...
he can have half the ling count as long as he has like 4 banes to accompany that.

If you poke up with however many lings you have at 5:30 and see a ton of banes, dont make the 16 lings and simply make 8 drones, then decide where you want to go from there (roach/ling all in or more macro play).
The only way your opponent can have banes this fast is either he 14/14 or he 15 hatched and got a bane nest before speed.

tokicheese

Canada739 Posts

February 21 2012 20:09 GMT

#225

Idk what reason people would be slagging on tang for... He posted a useful guide for some players who cares what type of game style it is?

Archism

United States2 Posts

February 21 2012 21:24 GMT

#226

Useful guide! Gives me more variety in my early game ZvZ. Before I saw this I would usually go for a Destiny-ish roach/sling all-in but I found that I would have trouble with mass sling openings that would overwhelm me before I had enough roaches out. I like the constant pressure you're able to put on with this style!

Anyway, haters gonna hate. They probably just lost to this on ladder and needed to qq somewhere...

kirdie

Germany221 Posts

February 22 2012 00:47 GMT

#227

Woa thank you very much for this build order! I tried it out two times and won both :-)
I have however only 42 lings at 6:20, can you tell me what I did wrong? I am a low master/high diamond player and I feel like I didn't mismacro or anything.

My zvz replay

P.S.: Lol, just won a ZvP on tal darim with that build. As I normally do a 12 pool I am used to sending my two first overlords out. This time he built canons at my natural however that I only saw after finishing. I killed the pylon however with my mass lings and because of the money he needed for the canons he didn't have a full wallof ^^

cpu

102 Posts

February 22 2012 08:03 GMT

#228

I am a Plat player and all I can say is that this guide is extremely useful in many ways.

1) At a lower level learning to execute a build is very important and most builds and games that get into the mid-late game are more about game sense and mcro but if you learn to stick to a BO and keep it tight such as this BO then it will be easier in the future to learn and execute more complex builds.

2) When using this build you will overrun anything but banelings, with that said it is not that bad to learn how to micro lings vs banes. It is something every Zerg and player can benefit from and have extremely better unit control because of being put into situations likes vs banes and learning the mechanics of micro through trial and error.

3) I beleive that for the most part people who have read this pot and have taken the time to write their opinions and comments are people that enjoy playing the game and not necesarily pro gamers but take the game pretty seriously. If that is the case a situation will arise where you will play a BOx in a tournament or be put in a clutch situation in a clan war and having a strat like this out of left field will give you an edge in changing up your game and not being preditcable. For example you are playing a clan war and beat 2 players from the other team both in long macro games and the next player is a zerg in expectation the other team will beleive that you are gonna play a macro game and you can suprise them with this.

All in all Tang is only trying to help out and guides of this level that have been this thoroughly tested are very few and far between in these forums. Stylisticly it may not fit your play style but give the man credit for actually spending the time to put the build together, to test it, to then refine it and then to come on here put a full write up and instructional videos about it for all ofus to learn from.

When did one of all the whiners and complainers in this post do anything even close to as helpful to the community.
Stop flaming, if u don't have something smart or constructive to say then just don't say anything at all and write off the build, stop giving the guys that actually make an effort to try and help us all improve such a hard time when they actually try and give us there little ems. Maybe you don't like the build but maybe someone else will like the idea so know about it so you can scout and counter it easily. But for heavens sake don't make a guy like Tang, who really tries hard, stop because some people have overwhelming opinions.

Guys like Tang are an asset to this community we should really learn to treat these people a little better or we will have no one left who wants to help us out.

chayde

United States13 Posts

February 22 2012 13:11 GMT

#229

On February 22 2012 17:03 cpu wrote:
When did one of all the whiners and complainers in this post do anything even close to as helpful to the community.
Stop flaming, if u don't have something smart or constructive to say then just don't say anything at all and write off the build, stop giving the guys that actually make an effort to try and help us all improve such a hard time when they actually try and give us there little ems. Maybe you don't like the build but maybe someone else will like the idea so know about it so you can scout and counter it easily. But for heavens sake don't make a guy like Tang, who really tries hard, stop because some people have overwhelming opinions.

Guys like Tang are an asset to this community we should really learn to treat these people a little better or we will have no one left who wants to help us out.

Could not agree more with this statement. Except that last line, there will always be the elitists who will come here because they think they're something hot and will give the super good advise of "macro better" no matter what the question is.

+ Show Spoiler +

Sarcasm Meter should be real high after reading that

cpu

102 Posts

February 22 2012 14:26 GMT

#230

Ok so we will not have anyone creative with interesting ideas left trying to help us out

chrotti

5 Posts

February 22 2012 15:20 GMT

#231

Wow I absolutely love this BO! I love it so much that I actually took the effort to register and write my very first post here on the forums ;-)

Beeing rather hopeless in the ZvZ matchup lately I was looking for some good advise to improve my play and then I stumbled upon this beauty here

From my last 8 ZvZ I won 7 with this strategy. In the process, I've beaten...

Gready Expansions
OK, not much of a challenge

Offensive Roaches
6+ very early Roaches always made me nervous, not with this BO anymore!

Defensive Roaches
You know, if they block their ramp with 3-5 early roaches, trying to tech safely behind it. A bit scary at first, but I learned that enough lings will eventually overwhelm those roaches, even on the narrow ramp to the main. A trick I learned was that I wouldn't show all my lings to him, so my opponent would still feel quite save behind those roaches (making him drone instead of making more roaches)

Mass lings off one base
They see me getting a relativly early expansion and probably think "Fool! I shall crush you with my 6, 10, 20 lings!". Well, not quite! I'd like to introduce you to my 6, 12, 24, 40 lings...

Banelings
I gotta fully agree with many posters above me, contrary to popular believe banelings vs speedlings is not an auto-win! Well microed speedlings do really well against banlings, as long as you split off small groups and send them baneling hunting. Ofc it's nothing for the faint hearted, but no risk no fun

4 of my games were won with pure lings, in 2 games I had to transition to roaches, 1 game turned into a 3 base macro game till i was able to crush him with Muta/Roach/ling

And the one game I lost was to ... a 6-pool ;-) I have to admit I slightly panicked, and once my 6 lings were out I forgot to attack with my drones as well. I will try to improve that next time.

So thank you Tang for that great guide, it's much appreciated.

punci

Hungary2 Posts

February 22 2012 15:43 GMT

#232

attacking is much harder, and requires much more practice then defending if we dont include random build order pokers that can happen nonetheless (imagine reactor helion vs proxy marauders, now imagine what if someone tries to do proxy mara vs a banshee rush. jeh), due to defenders advantage and whatnot.
that doesnt change the fact that this build is highly one dimensional and basicly relies on your opponent reacting badly to it. just like thor-banshee in tvp or any other gimmicky stuff.
attacking is also a short term investment exp with zerg that has to have some kind of return to be worth it. its rather hard to attain the level of july and see something and go "OH WELL I CAN JUST KILL THAT".

i have no idea how you can win a zvz on shakuras against defensive blings if you do this stuff all the time

just stop advertising your guides as "the best ever", its not. its a sad fact of sc2 that you can get so high doing rather random gimmicky shit.

llKenZyll

United States853 Posts

February 22 2012 15:49 GMT

#233

On February 20 2012 04:23 Odal wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 19 2012 05:28 TangSC wrote:

On February 19 2012 05:23 llKenZyll wrote:

On February 19 2012 04:20 TangSC wrote:

On February 19 2012 02:51 RampancyTW wrote:

On February 19 2012 02:04 TangSC wrote:

You can know this build is coming and still lose, we can play a BO5 anytime you like and I'll use this opening each game.

Lol, time to whip out the dicks and see whose is biggest.

...Did you actually go on reddit and look up this guy's account to find a way to insult him? You are insane.

Yep, he always plays that card.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 22 2012 16:18 GMT

#234

On February 23 2012 00:43 punci wrote:

Show nested quote +

i have no idea how you can win a zvz on shakuras against defensive blings if you do this stuff all the time

just stop advertising your guides as "the best ever", its not. its a sad fact of sc2 that you can get so high doing rather random gimmicky shit.

Here are some replays from yesterday and the day before:

http://drop.sc/117945 Ling vs Ling bane on Shakuras Plateau
http://drop.sc/117946
http://drop.sc/117944

phrenzy

United Kingdom478 Posts

February 22 2012 16:24 GMT

#235

Thanks tang,

I gotta say i won a few games with this BO but im losing more ZvZ's with this style. I think its both good to have a solid macro style and an all-out aggressive play.

So thanks for the replays, i will happily watch... and learn.

relaps3

United States4 Posts

February 22 2012 17:06 GMT

#236

I like this strat a good amount also. I used to use that stephano 11 pool bling ling 1 base thang. It worked well but when the push failed against someone who was on 2 bases I was kinda screwed.. But anyways, I really like this build a lot, I really like that you can actually transition out at some point since you get a 2nd base fast.

One thing I am scared of is running into someone else whos doing the same build..

llKenZyll

United States853 Posts

February 22 2012 18:47 GMT

#237

On February 23 2012 01:24 phrenzy wrote:

So thanks for the replays, i will happily watch... and learn.

ye its good to learn what NOT to do.

ch4ppi

Germany802 Posts

February 22 2012 19:16 GMT

#238

Thank you Tang for that Guide. It has greatly improved my ZvZ.

The hard part about the build is in the first place to read the situation well enough, to decide if you can go past the 42 speedlings with more speedlings or transition.

In my first games I lost terribly, because I refused to transition and I was headbutting into banelings, which is as u can imagine quiet ineffective. Since I understood how this is played I really really won alot. Sadly I'm just winning and havent met enough people that try to be defensive with baneling/Queen/Spine. I think there is the difficult part to properly transition into roaches.

Clarity_nl

Netherlands6826 Posts

February 22 2012 19:36 GMT

#239

On February 23 2012 04:16 ch4ppi wrote:
Thank you Tang for that Guide. It has greatly improved my ZvZ.

The hard part about the build is in the first place to read the situation well enough, to decide if you can go past the 42 speedlings with more speedlings or transition.

In my first games I lost terribly, because I refused to transition and I was headbutting into banelings, which is as u can imagine quiet ineffective. Since I understood how this is played I really really won alot. Sadly I'm just winning and havent met enough people that try to be defensive with baneling/Queen/Spine. I think there is the difficult part to properly transition into roaches.

If you're agressive all game, your opponent won't really attack you straight away, so you have a window to drone.
Put back in gas, make 10-12 drones, build warren after that, and make ~8 roaches when warren finishes > rally lings or drone behind.

Schnullerbacke13

Germany1199 Posts

February 22 2012 22:28 GMT

#240

another way to split lings effectively is to move them near the opponents bane and attack move back, the front lings will attack while the rest moves back. the later you move back, the more lings attack. Problem here: Lag will lose you lotso lings

Hossinaut

United States453 Posts

February 23 2012 00:56 GMT

#241

Even if you don't lag, you'll lose plenty of lings... Its best to just attack move a bane, punch a few off, and regogo with the rest of the banes. Remarkably effective if you have the control and APM to do it.

NoctemSC

United States771 Posts

February 23 2012 01:48 GMT

#242

Saw a pic of you "in your natural habitat" on reddit.
You were telling someone that you'd paypal them $20 if they left and you got GM because of it.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 23 2012 01:51 GMT

#243

On February 23 2012 10:48 NoctemSC wrote:
Saw a pic of you "in your natural habitat" on reddit.
You were telling someone that you'd paypal them $20 if they left and you got GM because of it.

It's a joke I made in season 3 taken out of context lol look at the poster, same guy who posted this: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/npitx/tt1_maphacks_just_like_in_brood_war/

NoctemSC

United States771 Posts

February 23 2012 02:05 GMT

#244

On February 23 2012 10:51 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

It's a joke I made in season 3 taken out of context lol look at the poster, same guy who posted this: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/npitx/tt1_maphacks_just_like_in_brood_war/

Either way I just thought I'd let you know.
I dislike when people put propaganda up about someone without them knowing.

NoisyNinja

United States991 Posts

February 23 2012 05:08 GMT

#245

Fuck haters.

Fucking amazing guide. It's saved ass in so many ZvZs I've had.

Fliparoni

205 Posts

February 23 2012 06:22 GMT

#246

Haters gonna hate! Great guide, Tang. I am a macro-oriented player myself, but IMO it's always good to learn a plethora of different builds and styles. The more variety you have in your gameplay, the better off you are.

Mahtasooma

Germany475 Posts

February 23 2012 09:14 GMT

#247

If we could just keep these nonsensical "this game should be played in this and that way" out of this FFS.

I fail how anyone can fail to see that having aggressive builds that force you to attack and macro at the same time (which is the hardest thing to do anyway) in a very early stage of the game doesn't get you much better skills overall than trying to sit back and pure macro until 80 drones.

agahamsorr0w

Netherlands359 Posts

February 23 2012 09:34 GMT

#248

On February 23 2012 18:14 Mahtasooma wrote:

If we could just keep these nonsensical "this game should be played in this and that way" out of this FFS.

I fail how anyone can fail to see that having aggressive builds that force you to attack and macro at the same time (which is the hardest thing to do anyway) in a very early stage of the game doesn't get you much better skills overall than trying to sit back and pure macro until 80 drones.

Because droning to 80 nonblindly requires skill, even zvz. Knowing when to drone is key in every matchup.

ch4ppi

Germany802 Posts

February 23 2012 10:31 GMT

#249

On February 23 2012 18:34 agahamsorr0w wrote:

Show nested quote +

Because droning to 80 nonblindly requires skill, even zvz. Knowing when to drone is key in every matchup.

Well Yeah, but that does not mean he isnt right about what he said.
This aggressive style requieres other skills than playing defensive macro style. It emphazises more the micro and the multitasking because u have to travel around the whole map to keep infecting and make decisions, while u put on really heavy pressure. I dont see why you should hate on this style. Its no supposed to be All-In, its just aggressive. Just like early Zealot pressure...

Mahtasooma

Germany475 Posts

February 23 2012 11:26 GMT

#250

..and it's not like you need the attacking-and-macro-skills in the long run, ESPECIALLY with a pure macro style.

It's all about the efficiency of your practice games and time.

Say you play 10 games with this style, and 10 games with a pure macro style.

What will happen?

With the aggressive style, you practiced macro, micro, macro while attacking in every single game.
You will win some games with it outright, though, practicing macro while attacking nonetheless.

With the macro style, you will mainly lose because you didn't make enough stuff early enough. You obviously can't lose because you get outmacroed. So when you lose here, you basically just practiced pure macroing of bases, and dying to too much stuff. When you win, you can even slip somewhat in macro-while-attacking and still win, thinking you did everything right.
So what happens? Either you will get overrun, or you might still win because of superior economy but sucking at multitasking, getting you nowhere in the long run.

stichlasser

69 Posts

February 23 2012 13:02 GMT

#251

I myself, Mr. Nolifefuckuniversityitsholidays just hit 100 games in ladder 6. And ... Im praying for ZvZ. Im Gold, I suck, but there are some things I want to say about that build.

1. Yes, probably better players can beat you with this, (Im beating at least hight plat zergs with it, hope they start sending dia soon

) BUT!

2. This build is very simple. I made the experience, that good mechanics help you getting better more than fancy builds or micro like a madman. When I first started using the build, I got supplyblocked, missed tons of injections, attacked to early or to late, ran into 2 baneslings and stuff (check 3.). Now, im getting less supplyblcoked, hit most of my injections and my attack timing seems to be pretty good.

3. Like I stated, overall mechanics > micro. In this build, you do the most basic Zerg micro, whichs means surrounding units (like queens, roaches, lings, in other mu stalkers or helions/marines eg) and avoiding/dodging banes (other mu masshelions, zealos). After i mastered the "dodge the banes" to a certain level, i started to manually attack singles banes with lings while microing my other lings (something I find very very hard for a beginner, the reason y banes are soooo good especially in lower leagues).

4. Scouting: You dont want to run into a bane all in. So you have to scout. After like 10 ZvZ you will most likely have seen every possible opening and you will adapt you build to it. Great feeling if this works out

Maybe this build wont bring you to GM, but it helps ALOT with overall gamemechanics, basic micro and ZvZ scouting/bo read. THX TANG!

orbit2021

United States29 Posts

February 23 2012 13:37 GMT

#252

On February 23 2012 00:43 punci wrote:

Show nested quote +

attacking is much harder, and requires much more practice then defending if we dont include random build order pokers that can happen nonetheless (imagine reactor helion vs proxy marauders, now imagine what if someone tries to do proxy mara vs a banshee rush. jeh), due to defenders advantage and whatnot.
that doesnt change the fact that this build is highly one dimensional and basicly relies on your opponent reacting badly to it. just like thor-banshee in tvp or any other gimmicky stuff.
attacking is also a short term investment exp with zerg that has to have some kind of return to be worth it. its rather hard to attain the level of july and see something and go "OH WELL I CAN JUST KILL THAT".

i have no idea how you can win a zvz on shakuras against defensive blings if you do this stuff all the time

just stop advertising your guides as "the best ever", its not. its a sad fact of sc2 that you can get so high doing rather random gimmicky shit.

can you please point out where tang advertises his guides as "the best ever" ?

thanks for this guide tang! im a plat/diamond zerg and *EVEN I* can recognize that damage done is DAMAGE DONE. i have never made more than the initial lings, and won 90% of my zvzs, they almost all get to 3 base long macro game scenario. when you kill 2 queens and some lings, force some banes, and you're droning behind that, you can RETAIN most of your lings, make a spine or two and be SO far ahead in larva its stupid. make 3-4 defensive roaches if you want to be low micro intensively safe. THIS IS A VERY SAFE WAY TO DRONE, KEEP MAP CONTROL, AND LEARN TO TRANSITION IN ZVZ.

how is it gimmicky to make YOUR BASIC LOWEST COST UNIT, do as much damage as you want and be ahead economically at the same time? its WAY more gimmicky to rush to banes to damage or even to defend vs this(and you've already taken losses and now you basically have to kill me with your banes or im still ahead)

BEST of all it teaches you to have great micro while macroing. sure some zergs out there love to play defensively macro and are great at it and they crush most all inners, but thats not for everyone...let us macro vs terran and protoss and show them the swarm, but lets keep zvz as OURS and explore the more aggressive side of zerg because after all, they have the same limitations as us and the same strengths...if drones are zergs strength, a good zerg should actively seek to destroy drones and that is the ONLY thing i try to do in zvz...i never attack someones army and if i do its distracting while my faster units kill drones

iiGreetings

Canada563 Posts

February 23 2012 14:10 GMT

#253

For those who are mad... This is stoppable if you scout it... Just learn to counter timings it's not easy but dont rage please

pluu.mooh

Austria142 Posts

February 25 2012 12:22 GMT

#254

This one is good in all matchups ! Heads up :D

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 25 2012 14:27 GMT

#255

On February 23 2012 19:31 ch4ppi wrote:

Show nested quote +

Exactly, I think the skill sets complement eachother too. I mean I'm an aggressive player but of course I still play standard/macro occasionally to practice, and similarly the most macro-focused players should also practice more aggressive styles.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 25 2012 22:34 GMT

#256

On February 25 2012 21:22 pluu.mooh wrote:
This one is good in all matchups ! Heads up :D

In theory I suppose it could be used in all matchups, though most protoss/terran will wall-off making that many lings an over-commitment. You can do roach/ling timings in all matchups for sure, but the initial ling pressure it designed for zvz.

pluu.mooh

Austria142 Posts

February 27 2012 12:30 GMT

#257

On February 26 2012 07:34 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

Actually it works fine if you can get pass that 1 zealot / sentry or you can use he lings to get rid of hellions and attack once he expands or when you get 5 banelings after a quick transition. To be honest due to banelings in zvz it works better against p and t in my opinion (or at least I was most sucessfull in that way). Anyways, thanks. It is really good to punish your opponent if they are greedy and transitions are easily handled.

Olsson

Sweden931 Posts

February 27 2012 12:40 GMT

#258

I don't see how this build will work versus someone that goes 15 hatch into banelings and just plays defensively with one to two spines. You will spend all your larvae on making lings and he will be able to spend his 50/50 lings and drones as he makes banelings. Ofcourse it comes down to micro but it feels like he has the big advantage since he has banelings. The problem with going mass lings is that you can't drone that well behind it compared to banelings or roaches that give you an edge from a normal zergling or two. In the guide you say transition to the next attack, roach ling if you see this but at this point you should be very behind if he droned up. Which makes the next attack all-in.

kirdie

Germany221 Posts

February 27 2012 21:33 GMT

#259

But you can just as well build drones from your injects and he has no way of knowing this. If he goes 15 hatch into banelings he has no zergling speed for a while which makes it hard for him to attack giving you a big macro lead. With an overlord you can spot on his natural if he builds many drones or not.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 28 2012 02:41 GMT

#260

On February 27 2012 21:40 Olsson wrote:
I don't see how this build will work versus someone that goes 15 hatch into banelings and just plays defensively with one to two spines. You will spend all your larvae on making lings and he will be able to spend his 50/50 lings and drones as he makes banelings. Ofcourse it comes down to micro but it feels like he has the big advantage since he has banelings. The problem with going mass lings is that you can't drone that well behind it compared to banelings or roaches that give you an edge from a normal zergling or two. In the guide you say transition to the next attack, roach ling if you see this but at this point you should be very behind if he droned up. Which makes the next attack all-in.

I don't think anyone could get away with making 50/50 ling/drones against this build. It forces baneling players to produce only zerglings, and you will usually need a spine and 2 queens at your expansion as well (assuming the attacking player has strong zergling micro). It's not uncommon at all to actually come out ahead in income after the ling pressure is over.

Stiluz

Norway688 Posts

February 28 2012 12:44 GMT

#261

Not sure why you're getting the hate TangSC, but this guide is really cool. I'm looking forward to ZvZ on the ladder now, thanks to this! :D

di3alot

172 Posts

February 28 2012 13:19 GMT

#262

not sure but is this build not the same what sheth did in zvz
before ret talked him that out because it loses to hatch first>pure zergling
and stephano just banling all in it with nor problem

but he also got a lot of wins vs rnd. zergs on the ladder with his first zeglings because they were bad^^

Edit:i need to find a rply of sheth im sure thats the same opening but he did a different transition out of this cause he is awesome.

virpi

Germany3598 Posts

February 28 2012 13:23 GMT

#263

i still prefer hatch first openings, they fit better to my reactive playstyle and also offer a lot more flexibility.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

February 28 2012 14:09 GMT

#264

On February 28 2012 21:44 Stiluz wrote:
Not sure why you're getting the hate TangSC, but this guide is really cool. I'm looking forward to ZvZ on the ladder now, thanks to this! :D

TeamLiquid users treat me like a god compared to Reddit lol! I actually think criticism is a necessary part of writing, sometimes the people who hate me the post give me the best tips to improve my content.

unarcher

France4 Posts

February 29 2012 22:14 GMT

#265

Mid level platinum zerg here
I am actually using this build in every zvz and my win rate is increasing fast in the matchup.
Really interesting to use this build as it need to micro a lot and to be really aware of injects
We can't call it an all in, as using so much ressources on rushing show our opponent that trying to drone may be lethal.

Really a great build, my favourite right now before Destiny unbeatable build

Bojas

Netherlands2397 Posts

March 01 2012 10:58 GMT

#266

http://drop.sc/124183

So I did this build I believe my 23 overlord was slightly slower like 5 seconds but the rest had proper execution my opponent did a weird 13 gas 12 pool 22 hatch mass speedling push. I got overrun cause his timing hit earlier. Is this a build order loss?

theorybiscuit

Canada117 Posts

March 01 2012 12:27 GMT

#267

I've won nine of my last ten zvz with this. God bless you Tang!

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

March 01 2012 18:41 GMT

#268

On March 01 2012 19:58 Bojas wrote:
http://drop.sc/124183

So I did this build I believe my 23 overlord was slightly slower like 5 seconds but the rest had proper execution my opponent did a weird 13 gas 12 pool 22 hatch mass speedling push. I got overrun cause his timing hit earlier. Is this a build order loss?

Anytime they do a similar build but with earlier speed and more lings, you just have to defend back with your queen. You should be able to hold that pressure (though it does require good micro). I have played against the style a few time but I never save the replay

sorry, but it's definitely not a build order loss just requires you to play defensive with your slow lings and queen.

Amestir

Netherlands2126 Posts

March 01 2012 18:49 GMT

#269

So I'm a gold player close to getting to plat. Atm I do a weird 1 base +1 speedling build, I feel that the build just doens't work enough against better players.

Do you think that as a gold player I got the skill to pull off this build?

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

March 01 2012 22:55 GMT

#270

On March 02 2012 03:49 Amestir wrote:
So I'm a gold player close to getting to plat. Atm I do a weird 1 base +1 speedling build, I feel that the build just doens't work enough against better players.

Do you think that as a gold player I got the skill to pull off this build?

I think it would be a much better option than a 1base speedling style, and also better for improving your mechanics.

Vega62a

946 Posts

March 07 2012 04:21 GMT

#271

Straight up build order loss vs 6 pool with spine on 2 player map

Edit: Leaving for legacy, but I played drunkenly and incorrectly and posted in a similar state. I'll definitely cancel the hatch, build 1-2 spines, and fight with workers next 6pool.

DeltruS

Canada2214 Posts

March 07 2012 05:46 GMT

#272

On March 07 2012 13:21 Vega62a wrote:
Straight up build order loss vs 6 pool with spine on 2 player map

I've beaten 6 pool many times. You just cancel your expo, take guys off gas, make a spine, 6 lings and a queen. You have to hold him off with your ~16 workers, but that isn't super hard.

If you think you lost while still doing those things, please post the replay because I'd love to see the full capabilities of a good 6 pool vs this build. (650 masters atm)

Pusekatten

Norway234 Posts

March 07 2012 06:17 GMT

#273

Im not able to watch the replays now, but I dont see how a speedling only build will win over a speedling/baneling build when both players are equaly good. Can someone please fill me inn?

DeltruS

Canada2214 Posts

March 07 2012 06:28 GMT

#274

On March 07 2012 15:17 Pusekatten wrote:
Im not able to watch the replays now, but I dont see how a speedling only build will win over a speedling/baneling build when both players are equaly good. Can someone please fill me inn?

None of the banelings hit. This build can prevent a 14/14 from morphing banelings with a superior ling count.

Against a 13/13, the other player can morph the banes but often dies to a counterattack while you double queen block.

I've won many games just attacking into a defensive bane player with one or no spines. You can spread out your lings and select 4 lings to attack morphing banes while move commanding small groups of lings away a small distance when the enemy banes get close. He is using his queens to defend and can't inject. End result: you overrun him.

Of course, situations do arise when you lose. The important thing is that there is always something you could have done to win.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

March 07 2012 17:01 GMT

#275

On March 07 2012 13:21 Vega62a wrote:
Straight up build order loss vs 6 pool with spine on 2 player map

It's the same as any 14/14 similar opening, it's more the micro/decision making than it is the build. You need to cancel the expansion and build 1-2 spines in your mineral line, using your drones and then your lings to defend.

It depends what build they do, but you will always have the superior ling count, which means you can engage in ling vs ling battles all day and just pull away when banes get close. If he's somehow able to morph banes very close to your base, then you can counterattack. For one-base baneling, you need a spine and queens at your expansion (Again, you could just counterattack). A baneling can kill 12 lings or it can kill 1 ling, the better your micro/multitasking is the more banes you can pick off with minimal losses.

Pusekatten

Norway234 Posts

March 08 2012 10:42 GMT

#276

Yes you can counterattack, but move bling players will also have some defensive blings.

Ballistixz

United States1269 Posts

March 08 2012 12:49 GMT

#277

at first i thought this build was pretty good on paper, then i seen the replays and it seems so very all innish/coin flippy. in this game there is something called defenders advantage. some of your replays the defenders just had lowsy baneling control, and by lowsy baneling control i mean he obviously just A moved the banelings.... i dont see how this build will ever work if the defender just has very good baneling micro and control.

also i take the GM replays with a grain of salt (especially since they are so old). just because u beat a particular top player once or twice doesnt mean a build is good. i can cannon rush idra and win, but it doesnt mean the build is good. not saying ur build isnt good, but i am saying it feels very all innish.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

March 08 2012 16:42 GMT

#278

On March 08 2012 21:49 Ballistixz wrote:
at first i thought this build was pretty good on paper, then i seen the replays and it seems so very all innish/coin flippy. in this game there is something called defenders advantage.

also i take the GM replays with a grain of salt (especially since they are so old). just because u beat a particular top player once or twice doesnt mean a build is good. i can cannon rush idra and win, but it doesnt mean the build is good.

Well defenders advantage is pretty much negated by zergling speed. You can't cannon rush idra and win - you'd have to play him first! My purpose in showing the replays isn't to say "hey I'm better than idra and can beat him in a major tournament." It's to show that I've been using this style to reach a high level on ladder and perform successfully while there. What makes this build less coinflippy/all-in for me is experience - I've used the build so many times that I've developed the multitasking/micro/decision-making skills.

I didn't talk much about my macro-transitions because that's not really "rushing relentlessly," you don't have to constantly attack and you don't have to make as many zerglings if your opponent is baneling/spining like crazy.

Blacklizard

United States1194 Posts

March 08 2012 19:38 GMT

#279

I don't play Zerg, but I love the direction the guide goes in. Aggression is a good thing and can be a very good way to play ZvZ. It's really sad that the masses hear nothing but "play safe, play passive" and think that is the answer to every matchup in every RTS.

Open you minds people and learn to play as much of the game as you can, not just a small part of the game.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

March 09 2012 20:17 GMT

#280

On March 09 2012 04:38 Blacklizard wrote:
I don't play Zerg, but I love the direction the guide goes in. Aggression is a good thing and can be a very good way to play ZvZ. It's really sad that the masses hear nothing but "play safe, play passive" and think that is the answer to every matchup in every RTS.

Open you minds people and learn to play as much of the game as you can, not just a small part of the game.

I agree, even as an aggressive player I have an appreciation and understanding of macro styles as well. Macro players don't have to all-in every game, but they should incorporate a few all-ins to practice the skills and executions.

RimJaynor

Canada145 Posts

March 09 2012 20:51 GMT

#281

I really like this build. It honestly 90% of the time at least gets me to mid game if i don't kill the zerg player. The one problem i've been having is hatch first then banes vs speed. Especially if my opponent doesn't waste his banes on my bait lings.

Kaitlin

United States2958 Posts

March 09 2012 23:16 GMT

#282

I used to have so much trouble with ZvZ, but since trying this strat (which I use every ZvZ now) I have literally not lost yet. Probably about 15 to 20 games. I had been playing Random, but now exclusively Zerg (for now). Funny, the build from the Terran thread on cheese-less macro, I have been using that build and also haven't lost a single game, while playing Random. I'm very surprised at both of these results.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

March 12 2012 02:10 GMT

#283

On March 10 2012 05:51 RimJaynor wrote:
I really like this build. It honestly 90% of the time at least gets me to mid game if i don't kill the zerg player. The one problem i've been having is hatch first then banes vs speed. Especially if my opponent doesn't waste his banes on my bait lings.

Well when your first set of lings reach his base, a hatch-first baneling player will likely will only have 2 banelings and speedless lings. This is a crucial window to do some opening damage with reinforcing lings being produced/rallied to opponent immediately. It's absolutely possible to snipe those first few banelings and end the game outright with reinforcements, but at the very least you will force him to produce more defenses than usual and you should be able to engage in favorable situations against zerglings while sniping a queen or a few drones. With your opening zergling pressure, you must do some form of damage to stay even, but you might be surprised at how much continuing to mine gas while building spines/lings/banelings/queens stunts his early/midgame economy.

Rewok

40 Posts

March 16 2012 20:12 GMT

#284

Love this guide, too. I went from losing ling / baneling bullshit to winning ling counter attack bullshit. HIJGE improvement. braveZOMBiE.532

MilesTeg

France1271 Posts

March 21 2012 11:08 GMT

#285

Someone recommened this thread but holy crap it should've come with a warning to not read the first 10 pages. The amount of bias and close mindedness in a lot of people here is hard to believe. I guess some people are just too frustrated by their ZvZ losses to realise their conception of the matchup is wrong...

Anyway thanks Tang, been using a similar style for a while and I think it's solid

Shibbxyz

United Kingdom94 Posts

March 21 2012 11:36 GMT

#286

Most ZvZ games you can just win with the surprise of a lot of lings and this build does work great although I prefer to always be throwing in a couple of drones and ensuring I control what little lings I have to maximum efficiency, just a micro practice thing and knowing as longs as my opponent thinks I have a lot of lings I'll be safe.
But this build does work really well I've come across it on ladder and the times I don't see the constant ling production I just get swarmed before I can make any lings of my own or enough defensive banelings to prevent some eco damage.
It does work really well on Taldarim but on maps with a ramp the best you can do is deny the natural but the roach follow up can be killer.

vBr

Sweden193 Posts

March 21 2012 20:43 GMT

#287

I find it so disturbing that you sit around with 3 larvas for such a long time, feels like such a waste. the whole queen, ol, speed thing becomes clunky. I experimented abit with different builds but produced a very similar result

Disarray

United States1164 Posts

March 22 2012 10:53 GMT

#288

Great guide, I really don't understand how the audio/video gets so out of sync but that 3rd streaming video is really bad, he gets a full minute ahead at one point.

d00p

711 Posts

March 22 2012 12:03 GMT

#289

Really good build that gives you a high V/L at least below masters. I was getting tired of ZvZ because 1) there are so many Zs and 2) they all rush to 2 base mutas if you let them.

With this build ZvZs are fast and fun. I have lost a couple of games when the opponent went the exact same build and I made some small blunder/opponent executed better.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

March 23 2012 23:25 GMT

#290

On March 22 2012 21:03 d00p wrote:
With this build ZvZs are fast and fun. I have lost a couple of games when the opponent went the exact same build and I made some small blunder/opponent executed better.

If they do the same build, the player that switches to roaches is the player that died first. I think against any similar mass-ling style, it's best to try to squeeze out a few drones and go banes (either defensively with spines or offensively with lots of lings).

SlapMySalami

United States1060 Posts

March 23 2012 23:39 GMT

#291

you should make a guide on zenio's boring ass 15 hatch 4queen 3spine build that wins me so many zvzs

pulpSC

United States31 Posts

March 24 2012 04:28 GMT

#292

On March 24 2012 08:39 SlapMySalami wrote:
you should make a guide on zenio's boring ass 15 hatch 4queen 3spine build that wins me so many zvzs

I believe Day9 did a whole entire daily on this. Well, at least he does a walkthrough of Zenio's ZvZ.

Day9 Daily - #387 [LiquidZenio's ZvZ]

On March 10 2012 08:16 Kaitlin wrote:
I used to have so much trouble with ZvZ, but since trying this strat (which I use every ZvZ now) I have literally not lost yet. Probably about 15 to 20 games. I had been playing Random, but now exclusively Zerg (for now). Funny, the build from the Terran thread on cheese-less macro, I have been using that build and also haven't lost a single game, while playing Random. I'm very surprised at both of these results.

May I asked what league you are in? I found a couple people with your name on the ladders (looking them up online, not in game) but am just curious. I noticed that it seems when you try to do these very aggressive builds from about platinum and under, you tend to have much more success. However, with that being said and despite what was written in the guide, a big downfall is that if they manage to defend your aggression and you are the type of person of person who doesn't have a good sense of how much damage you did...you will get slowly get snowballed to death.

Vond

Sweden145 Posts

March 24 2012 08:13 GMT

#293

Tried this twice vs AI, and then decided to try it on ladder even thought it's 9am and I've been awake all night watching MLG+GSTL.. Really liked it I must say. I'm platinum (#2), and this was my first game vs a diamond player (didn't know that until after ofc) and I won quite handedly.

He also went for 15p/15g but 16h, but didn't get early speed. My early aggression killed his hatch and just 2 workers + some lings, but since he had banelings I decided to call the all-in there and transition by droning up and going for roaches etc and taking a third once saturated on both bases. Stayed active with my lings for awhile whilst transitioning to snipe some banelings etc, and even though we were quite even on workers for some time after the transition, I always felt quite far ahead. Thanks for this post, will keep using this and well, there was one point while I was doing aggression that my injects was 28seconds late for example + another injectround missed on the natural early on. Also whilst sniping his third I didn't notice he had double-expanded and taken the gold aswell (though didn't get much use of it), so can only get better at it and hopefully keep getting good results.

http://drop.sc/141160 if anyone would like to give some pointers what I could do different if anything besides what I pointed out.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

March 26 2012 14:45 GMT

#294

On March 24 2012 08:39 SlapMySalami wrote:
you should make a guide on zenio's boring ass 15 hatch 4queen 3spine build that wins me so many zvzs

I do want to do a guide on Zenio's 3hatch Ling/Bane style

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

March 28 2012 15:40 GMT

#295

On March 24 2012 17:13 Vond wrote:
He also went for 15p/15g but 16h, but didn't get early speed. My early aggression killed his hatch and just 2 workers + some lings, but since he had banelings I decided to call the all-in there and transition by droning up and going for roaches etc and taking a third once saturated on both bases. Stayed active with my lings for awhile whilst transitioning to snipe some banelings etc, and even though we were quite even on workers for some time after the transition, I always felt quite far ahead.

Yes if he goes straight for banelings, there's a nice window at around 5:30-5:50 where your speedlings can get in and do a lot of damage. While I usually prefer to go into the main and attempt to kill queens, drones, lings, and morphing banes, sometimes the correct decision is to kill the expansion and then back off a bit. What I usually do, if I want to macro, is drop a spine while I'm moving out and then a second spine a little later. Then, by keeping very active with my left-over zerglings (sniping banelings, spotting drones count at his expansion, etc), I can a) Prepare for his all-in by producing additional lings/spines. b) Drone up like crazy and get earlier upgrades with a later warren than my opponent.

I almost always favour keeping the superior speedling count in throughout all ZvZ matches, so that if he tries to snipe my early-third with lings I can easily repel them (and also I can hopefully kill his 3rd).

Raamah

18 Posts

March 29 2012 18:51 GMT

#296

I'm a big fan of this build as I find it is a great place to start learning how aggressive you can be > how aggressively you can scout > how aggressively you can drone. I hate building drones blind because I learn very little when I die from overdoing it and there are no clear "rules" for the production so its really excellent.

One question though: the build is quite highly optimised and so sending a drone scout muddies up some of the timings for production very early on. How do you scout with this build/in general in zvz? Does it depend on the map and if so what variations do you use on the different maps?

Thanks a ton for remaining active in this thread too, even if a lot of players can't quite grasp the most useful areas of this build not actually being the attacks or direct damage you deal. You can't win with some people

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

March 29 2012 20:15 GMT

#297

On March 30 2012 03:51 Raamah wrote:
One question though: the build is quite highly optimised and so sending a drone scout muddies up some of the timings for production very early on. How do you scout with this build/in general in zvz? Does it depend on the map and if so what variations do you use on the different maps?

Good question Raamah, I personally do not drone scout in ZvZ. Ever. I use my first and second overlords to determine my opponent's spawning location and scout their expansion. Knowing whether they've expanded by the 4minute mark is the critical information I need to defend 1-base all-ins. If you haven't scouted yet, you can always build a spine anytime after pool and cancel once you realize you're safe.

That being said, a drone-scout does not impact your economy THAT much. You could consider scouting every game, or at least on 4-player maps like tal-darim altar and antiga shipyard. Personally, I prefer to build/cancel a spine and save the mining time.

Najda

United States3765 Posts

March 29 2012 23:24 GMT

#298

Because I haven't seen a good response to this yet, I'll give it a go.

The reason Zerg players play a greedy as possible for as long as possible, is because money they spend on drones is money that will compound and grow. If you were to spend money on units, then you would have to do damage with them, or else you'll fall behind where you optimally would be otherwise. For a Zerg player, the units need to have a purpose. Putting "pressure" on a Terran or Protoss just isn't effective unless you are using the threat to gain an economic lead or trying to end the game. T and P can apply pressure to Z to make them cut drones, but when Z pressures T or P, it just means they have to be wary about moving out.

silentdecay01

United States106 Posts

March 30 2012 07:45 GMT

#299

this guide is great, zvz was my worst match up..thought i would stay dim forever, I used this every time in zvz, Its not a all in. I used it as a ecom killer. kill the ecom of their 2nd base/expo. while i drone behind it, and tech up to roach infestor. thanks tang, got promoted to masters today just in time for season 7
zvz was only mu keeping me in dim lol

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

March 30 2012 20:12 GMT

#300

On March 30 2012 16:45 silentdecay01 wrote:
this guide is great, zvz was my worst match up..thought i would stay dim forever, I used this every time in zvz, Its not a all in. I used it as a ecom killer. kill the ecom of their 2nd base/expo. while i drone behind it, and tech up to roach infestor. thanks tang, got promoted to masters today just in time for season 7
zvz was only mu keeping me in dim lol

I'm glad the guide has helped you, congrats on your promotion! If you're using the opening to transition into Roach/Infestor, that's great - Stephano does something very similar. I would just recommend you get a spine or 2 (more if you scout he's going tons of units instead of drones) because it's usually best to get the roach upgrades started before the warren. Best of luck!

DeltruS

Canada2214 Posts

March 30 2012 20:27 GMT

#301

I am 1k masters NA.

I am working on transitioning out of this build into a ling based mid game. So far it seems that I need to skip the first roach attack in favor of a 1/1 + macro hatch roach ling attack. Otherwise, my upgrades are too late and I can die to 1/1 roaches.

Putting a overlord over their 3rd is pretty crucial -- you can't let them get ahead in economy.

I like to rally my 24th drone egg to my nat for a spine. I have 100 mins floating at the time my hatch finishes anyways, and having a spine in place makes you much safer against a variety of things. Mainly, it helps against a ling counterattack when your first ling push fails.

Against hatch first, I think it is better to do a 33/36 attack and then rally 3 drones eggs to gas while you attack. This should hit just as banes are morphing. Too many times I have been hard countered by my opponent blindly going hatch first, 6 drones and, a spine and then switching to mass lings.

It eventually leads to a stephano-ish ling infestor spine style and from there I get ultras and speed banes.

Do you have any experience with this transition Tang? I am still working on it pretty heavily and there are still a lot of things I need to find out.

SirPsychoMantis

United States180 Posts

March 30 2012 22:30 GMT

#302

Thanks tang, this build its working great, love punishing greedy zergs, although it is much more fun when I can get the transitions going.

+ Show Spoiler +

EDIT: Turns out hes in my league! makes it better

+ Show Spoiler +

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 01 2012 00:40 GMT

#303

On March 31 2012 05:27 DeltruS wrote:
I am 1k masters NA.

I am working on transitioning out of this build into a ling based mid game. So far it seems that I need to skip the first roach attack in favor of a 1/1 + macro hatch roach ling attack. Otherwise, my upgrades are too late and I can die to 1/1 roaches.

Putting a overlord over their 3rd is pretty crucial -- you can't let them get ahead in economy.

I like to rally my 24th drone egg to my nat for a spine. I have 100 mins floating at the time my hatch finishes anyways, and having a spine in place makes you much safer against a variety of things. Mainly, it helps against a ling counterattack when your first ling push fails.

Against hatch first, I think it is better to do a 33/36 attack and then rally 3 drones eggs to gas while you attack. This should hit just as banes are morphing. Too many times I have been hard countered by my opponent blindly going hatch first, 6 drones and, a spine and then switching to mass lings.

It eventually leads to a stephano-ish ling infestor spine style and from there I get ultras and speed banes.

Do you have any experience with this transition Tang? I am still working on it pretty heavily and there are still a lot of things I need to find out.

I occasionally get a macro hatch after my first attack, but if I want to transition into macro my usual option is to get the 2 evo chambers and use 1-2 spines to defend with lings (Obviously lots of ling scouting).

Rallying the 24th drone egg to natural and building a spine is fine, though if you're making that many lings you can definitely do it a bit later.

I've tried to make purely upgraded ling/infestor work, but I've had more success with roach or muta transitioning. If you can make it work with just lings, let me know! lol

enykie

Germany64 Posts

April 05 2012 20:35 GMT

#304

Hey Tang,

i see no possible way to hold a 14/14 ling/bling allin with this opener, i tried 3 times. But i really want to :D

at one moment:
- i got 6 lings one queen and a building spine
- opponent has 10 lings and earlier ling speed

and this small and neat window where he can crush you, before additional lings come out.

replay --> http://drop.sc/154469

i saw that you say to build a additional spine in the main, but i dont see where this helps... perhaps an earlier spine pre building in the main or something like that?

Cheers and thx
Michael

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 09 2012 22:13 GMT

#305

On April 06 2012 05:35 enykie wrote:
Hey Tang,

i see no possible way to hold a 14/14 ling/bling allin with this opener, i tried 3 times. But i really want to :D

at one moment:
- i got 6 lings one queen and a building spine
- opponent has 10 lings and earlier ling speed

and this small and neat window where he can crush you, before additional lings come out.

replay --> http://drop.sc/154469

i saw that you say to build a additional spine in the main, but i dont see where this helps... perhaps an earlier spine pre building in the main or something like that?

Cheers and thx
Michael

hey michael, I build a spine on 23 (after 2nd queen and before overlord) and move it down to the expansion immediately. I also start a 3rd queen at my expansion and move my main queen down there. Having 2 queens on the ramp (a 3rd one building) with a spine is a pretty nice defense, and considering you're massing zerglings anyway you should hold your expansion or counterattack if the opportunity arises.

Zheryn

Sweden3653 Posts

April 09 2012 23:04 GMT

#306

This build probably dies very easily to a 14/14 baneling play.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 10 2012 19:46 GMT

#307

On April 10 2012 08:04 Zheryn wrote:
This build probably dies very easily to a 14/14 baneling play.

It relies on a fast response, because baneling busts can be very deadly. At 23 supply, your first overlord should be at your opponent's expansion. If you see lings coming out and no expansion by 4min, you can safely assume a ling/bane all-in. If you build a spine at the edge of your main creep, it'll finish in time to move down and defend your expansion. You should also inject your main queen and move it down to the expansion and start another queen (3rd queen) at your natural. Wall the ramp with 2 queens and a spine there. Use your lings to micro and pick off banelings or counterattack. 14/14 all-ins are VERY vulnerable to ling counter attacks, so long as you're smart about moving up ramps (sometimes smarter players hide banelings in their mineral line or above their ramp)

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 11 2012 18:48 GMT

#308

On April 10 2012 08:04 Zheryn wrote:
This build probably dies very easily to a 14/14 baneling play.

Here is a replay that may help:

http://drop.sc/158050

(Opponent goes for Ling/Baneling all-in)

SirPsychoMantis

United States180 Posts

April 13 2012 17:28 GMT

#309

Hey Tang,

How do you feel about this build on Daybreak? With the super long rush distance do you think a 15 hatch could be better, but still go for the 42 ling attack? Or maybe don't commit to the first attack since reinforcements will take longer to get there?

zZzJinzZz

United States13 Posts

April 13 2012 18:48 GMT

#310

Nice post

Universum

Canada192 Posts

April 13 2012 18:54 GMT

#311

Hey Tang, do you still create secondary accounts to post questions on your own threads ?

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/nd6nd/tang_in_his_natural_habitat/

Fliparoni

205 Posts

April 13 2012 20:43 GMT

#312

Thanks for this build, Tang! Even if I don't always end up doing the ling attack (sometimes just using the lings to harass and keep him more contained in his base), I always open now in my ZvZ's using this build.

Universum

Canada192 Posts

April 14 2012 18:20 GMT

#313

I guess I somewhat killed the thread but uncovering the truth about It's writer.

TheMooseHeed

United Kingdom535 Posts

April 14 2012 18:44 GMT

#314

We live in a world where everyone is trying to get ahead so its not suprising.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 14 2012 19:06 GMT

#315

On April 14 2012 03:54 Universum wrote:
Hey Tang, do you still create secondary accounts to post questions on your own threads ?

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/nd6nd/tang_in_his_natural_habitat/

No, that account has been unbanned - it was originally banned (About 8 months ago) because a friend and I matched IPs while on the University campus. I've never had another account other than this one for Team Liquid.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 14 2012 19:08 GMT

#316

On April 15 2012 03:20 Universum wrote:
I guess I somewhat killed the thread but uncovering the truth about It's writer.

Don't flatter yourself, lol, that reddit thread has been around since season 2 and is proven to be a joke taken out of context. Do a bit of research on the poster of that screenshot before jumping to conclusions.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 14 2012 19:09 GMT

#317

On April 14 2012 02:28 SirPsychoMantis wrote:
Hey Tang,

How do you feel about this build on Daybreak? With the super long rush distance do you think a 15 hatch could be better, but still go for the 42 ling attack? Or maybe don't commit to the first attack since reinforcements will take longer to get there?

Daybreak is a large map, but speedlings are so fast that the difference isn't that significant. I do this build on every map.

TheMooseHeed

United Kingdom535 Posts

April 14 2012 19:28 GMT

#318

On April 15 2012 04:08 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

Don't flatter yourself, lol, that reddit thread has been around since season 2 and is proven to be a joke taken out of context. Do a bit of research on the poster of that screenshot before jumping to conclusions.

I am willing to believe this. Source of proof?

InfCereal

Canada1759 Posts

April 14 2012 19:36 GMT

#319

I don't care at all about the current "Tang hurr durr this that durr" thing going on in this thread, but someone mentioned 14/14 baneling play.

I've found the best way to stop baneling play is to stop them from morphing in. I often play against 14/14 banelings, but have never had the blings successfully finish morphing. I've had much more problems with a 9-10 pool baneling play though. Generally if I see more than 4 lings leave his base and not show up at my front door, I'll move out with slow lings and try to find where they're hiding. (Usually right out of vision)

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 14 2012 19:36 GMT

#320

On April 15 2012 04:28 TheMooseHeed wrote:

Show nested quote +

I am willing to believe this. Source of proof?

The poster's history: http://www.reddit.com/user/llKENZYll

Erroneous claims against other members of the community: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/npitx/tt1_maphacks_just_like_in_brood_war/

Not to mention, like I said, it's simply a joke taken out of context, which is why they posted the screenshot and not the replay. I can say with 100% sincerity that I would never pay someone to leave a game, nor would I go as low as to create an account to bump my threads. I love SC2 and the community, my biggest failures were my first few guides on TL which were promotion oriented instead of content oriented. Live and learn! I'm now firmly dedicated to producing the absolute best guides I can.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 14 2012 19:38 GMT

#321

On April 15 2012 04:36 InfCereal wrote:
I don't care at all about the current "Tang hurr durr this that durr" thing going on in this thread, but someone mentioned 14/14 baneling play.

I've found the best way to stop baneling play is to stop them from morphing in. I often play against 14/14 banelings, but have never had the blings successfully finish morphing. I've had much more problems with a 9-10 pool baneling play though. Generally if I see more than 4 lings leave his base and not show up at my front door, I'll move out with slow lings and try to find where they're hiding. (Usually right out of vision)

Well the problem that 14/14 baneling all-ins pose against players who open with the 15/15/17hatch is that you don't have speed early enough, or sufficient lings while he's morphing in. I've found the best response is to build a spine and transfer down to the expansion, as well as wall the ramp with queens and produce a 3rd one.

Here is an example: http://drop.sc/158050

TheMooseHeed

United Kingdom535 Posts

April 14 2012 19:49 GMT

#322

+ Show Spoiler +

On April 15 2012 04:36 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

Thanks for the explanation. For now I am satisfied that it is just haters stirring.

WizardOfTime

United States1 Post

April 14 2012 20:07 GMT

#323

I don't understand the hate for Tang, there is no shortage of general knowledge on how to play the standard macro zerg, it's nice to have some guides for some strong timing attacks. Even if you are mostly a macro player, it's nice to mix up your game.

At any rate, I've been using this build a lot in ZvZ, and with a lot of success. It's pretty all in in that your drone count will be kinda low, but you do have the expansion up, so as long as you don't just get stomped on the initial attack (basically only happens if you make a micro goof and get bane'd really bad) you can switch into defensive macro mode with a solid advantage pretty easily from the 2hatch/2queens.
Often it just flat out kills them though.

R3KRUL

Bulgaria4 Posts

April 14 2012 20:15 GMT

#324

I think this is really deadly build i counter all 14/14 builds and i think the only good counter to this 16 hatch 17 gas 17 pool into banes which is so rare nowadays

Great guide, dont understand the hate.
Masters Zerg btw

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 14 2012 20:25 GMT

#325

On April 15 2012 04:49 TheMooseHeed wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

On April 15 2012 04:36 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

Thanks for the explanation. For now I am satisfied that it is just haters stirring.

I appreciate that ^^

Forbidden17

666 Posts

April 14 2012 21:13 GMT

#326

On April 15 2012 05:07 WizardOfTime wrote:
I don't understand the hate for Tang, there is no shortage of general knowledge on how to play the standard macro zerg, it's nice to have some guides for some strong timing attacks. Even if you are mostly a macro player, it's nice to mix up your game.

At any rate, I've been using this build a lot in ZvZ, and with a lot of success. It's pretty all in in that your drone count will be kinda low, but you do have the expansion up, so as long as you don't just get stomped on the initial attack (basically only happens if you make a micro goof and get bane'd really bad) you can switch into defensive macro mode with a solid advantage pretty easily from the 2hatch/2queens.
Often it just flat out kills them though.

Generally, foreign fans just look down on all-inish play with disgust, usually because it produces quick and boring games. The problem arises when they associate someone who all-ins with someone who lacks the skill to macro, and quickly link the two without any real foundation. And then they wonder why foreigners lose to koreans.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 15 2012 02:23 GMT

#327

On April 15 2012 06:13 Forbidden17 wrote:

Show nested quote +

I don't really think there should be a negative association with a player who prefers to all-in over macro, it's just a stylistic choice. If they're able to make it work, it's a viable strategy.

Universum

Canada192 Posts

April 15 2012 05:39 GMT

#328

It was not as much the post on reddit but the ban by CHILL

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 15 2012 12:33 GMT

#329

Yes, please explain. You had an account banned on TL for sock puppeting, I can't remember the date, but I read the admins post in the ban log and he calls you out by name.

As far as the merits of cheesing go: I personally believe that straight up cheese is the best way to learn the game, as you learn how to control a few units, learn how to kill an opponant, and learn to macro while controlling units. Why build a ton of units on a ton of bases when you can't even properly control a few units on 1 base? Others may disagree, but I think they are wrong.

My problems with you are twofold: 1) cheese is fine, but you make your guides out to be these super special elite builds or whatever, when they are not. Just call it what it is. 2) I personally do not believe you post these guides for any reason other than to drum up new clients for your coaching. To me, you seem disingenuous. This isn't about SC, your love of the game, helping noobs, it is about making money. And even that would be ok if the content was better. Notice a theme here? Deceptive practices.

As it stands, you clutter up TL with these guides and write off people like me, who call you out on this stuff, as nothing more than elitist haters, when in reality most seem to really take issue with dressing a pig in lipstick and calling it a supermodel, and then trying to sell said pig to a group of people who, by definition, don't know any better.

I eagerly await your thoughtful reply.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 15 2012 13:14 GMT

#330

On April 15 2012 04:06 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

As previously stated, the account was unbanned by Chill. He assumed the same public IP address meant the same person, but I messaged him and he verified that the account did not belong to me and unbanned it immediately.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 15 2012 13:41 GMT

#331

On April 15 2012 21:33 rikter wrote:
Yes, please explain. You had an account banned on TL for sock puppeting, I can't remember the date, but I read the admins post in the ban log and he calls you out by name.

As far as the merits of cheesing go: I personally believe that straight up cheese is the best way to learn the game, as you learn how to control a few units, learn how to kill an opponant, and learn to macro while controlling units. Why build a ton of units on a ton of bases when you can't even properly control a few units on 1 base? Others may disagree, but I think they are wrong.

My problems with you are twofold: 1) cheese is fine, but you make your guides out to be these super special elite builds or whatever, when they are not. Just call it what it is. 2) I personally do not believe you post these guides for any reason other than to drum up new clients for your coaching. To me, you seem disingenuous. This isn't about SC, your love of the game, helping noobs, it is about making money. And even that would be ok if the content was better. Notice a theme here? Deceptive practices.

As it stands, you clutter up TL with these guides and write off people like me, who call you out on this stuff, as nothing more than elitist haters, when in reality most seem to really take issue with dressing a pig in lipstick and calling it a supermodel, and then trying to sell said pig to a group of people who, by definition, don't know any better.

I eagerly await your thoughtful reply.

I never called anyone out as an "elitist hater", I read all comments of criticism and support in an attempt to find ways to improve my content. Furthermore, I always appreciate users' insights and contributions to my threads, and I never take someone disagreeing with me as an insult. The primary reason I don't respond to all the messages of criticism is because most often there aren't any constructive points that I can learn from. Usually, the comments come from players who are uninformed, do not produce content of their own, and have no interest in improving the quality of helpful content on the Team Liquid forum.

For example, your first argument: "1) cheese is fine, but you make your guides out to be these super special elite builds or whatever, when they are not. Just call it what it is" proves only that you haven't even taken the time to read my guides before commenting. Here are examples of me calling an all-in build what it is:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306525
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317003

Also, here are examples of me examining more macro-related elements:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=301616
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324733

And yes, I've been a StarCraft II Coach for over a year. It's a dedicated pursuit of mine, since I started playing this game I've had a passion for helping players improve. I've produced upwards of twenty strategy guides, produced tutorial videos, performed live lectures at the University of Waterloo, and I've NEVER had a negative review from a student. Coaching is an enormous investment of my time and energy, I could not justify doing it without earning an income - I'm a University student with bills to pay myself. But that's not enough of a reason to claim it's "only about making money." I've been a paid English/Writing tutor for nearly seven years! Believe me when I say I could find other work, but I coach StarCraft instead because it's rewarding, I love the game, and I respect the community.

In short, I'd rather "clutter up TL with these guides" that I believe help add variety to people's experience of SC2 than not produce any content at all. I strongly believe in the quality of my content and coaching.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 15 2012 16:50 GMT

#332

If what you say about the ban is true, and it was just your friend at Waterloo who had a question, then fine, although from what (admittedly little) I understand about IP addresses I wonder how your friend wound up with an identical IP without making the post from your computer; and if he made the post from your computer then why didn't he just ask you himself? Unless you just wanted your thread bump. Maybe someone else can enlighten me on how Tangs friend at university wound up with an identical IP?

Reguarding writing people off as elitist haters, thats sloppy writing on my part.I misattributed a post to you when it was made by someone else. Even though I believe that if I go through the hundreds of pages of posts in your guides I would find something, we could just read it to imply that that people who disagree with you are shouted down as such. Because that is definitely true. Don't believe me? Just scroll up a few posts.

It's very convenient that you only gave examples of 4 guides, when you say that you have made many more; I have, in fact, read all your guides on TL (because I think it's funny watching you try and save face in front of noobs when the real-deals call you out), and I know for a fact that my argument 1) reguarding calling builds what they are was something you got absolutely hammered on. And don't try to tell me you've fixed it because now you come out with another guide that amounts to a blind all-in, that relies on your opponant being bad, and you don't call it as such. Only an ovie scout, and not until 4 minutes in? Supported by replays that are almost a year old? Anyone who knows anything about the game isn't going to support their guide with replays from different patches. Even if none of the units involved have been patched, the patches effect the meta game at the very least. Why do you ignore this?

This is my real problem with you: you give bad advice and promote yourself so that you can make money, when TL is filled with people who give better advice and charge NOTHING for it. You make money off this site and in return you mislead newer players. Even though the noobs thank you when they manage to roll some other noob, this alone is not enough to justify your guides because by definition these players are ignorant; they lack the ability to understand what is and isn't really helpful to them in terms of the game. Whenever you convince one of them of something wrong, you hurt their progress.

You only think you are doing something helpful.

CP`

Canada38 Posts

April 15 2012 17:31 GMT

#333

Someone sure is taking the internet a little too seriously...

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 15 2012 18:03 GMT

#334

On April 16 2012 02:31 CP` wrote:
Someone sure is taking the internet a little too seriously...

He is using this free resource to to take advantage of the less informed in order to make money. What does the internet have to do with anything? Unless nothing on the internet is to be taken seriously?

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

April 15 2012 18:53 GMT

#335

On April 16 2012 03:03 rikter wrote:

Show nested quote +

He puts up tons of free guides and tutorials. Just because you personally don't like them, what gives you the right to hate on him? What have you ever done for the community?

If people dislikes Tangs guides and methods, they should just stay away from his threads, for the benefit everyone.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 15 2012 19:13 GMT

#336

On April 16 2012 03:53 Tobberoth wrote:

Show nested quote +

This isn't about the guides in and of themselves. It's about these guides being nothing more than a vehicle for free add space. This is the only thread of his in which I will be making a post of this nature, and if he wasn't trying to round up coaching clients, and wouldn't have gone even this far. At least now, maybe someone who is considering giving this guy money may read this and realize, "Hey, he makes a good point. I can get all the services Tang is selling completely for free on TL already, and from arguably better sources."

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 15 2012 19:29 GMT

#337

On April 16 2012 04:13 rikter wrote:

Show nested quote +

Believe me when I say you will not be the first, nor the last, to undertake a personal quest to ruin me!

CP`

Canada38 Posts

April 15 2012 19:31 GMT

#338

On April 16 2012 03:03 rikter wrote:

Show nested quote +

How do you know they're uninformed? Perhaps they did research and decided they enjoyed his style of play most. You definitely seem to be taking this whole "He's an evil man and he's taking advantage of the poor innocent sheep that are sc2 noobs who could never possibly know better" thing way too far. If his students don't complain after the services have been rendered then clearly they are happy with their investment. Who cares if they're just learning to all-in? He is causing no harm to these people in anyway. He's teaching them a specific style that you happen to disagree with...and here's the big thing that you need to focus on it's just a game. It can be played anyway people feel like.

Now, that being said if his customers were coming back saying they didn't get what they payed for then that is a totally different situation where Tang would be at fault. But so far your entire argument hinges on the fact that Tang posts guides that you don't like because they're all-in and he uses his freely available material on this free site to promote his coaching. Maybe you should go complain to all the other coaches who happen to post on here as well.

Fliparoni

205 Posts

April 15 2012 19:33 GMT

#339

Dont worry, tang. Haters gonna hate. Nothing you can do about that. What you can do something about is just keep on making good guides with good content like you have been lately. Keep up the good work.

Forbidden17

666 Posts

April 15 2012 19:45 GMT

#340

On April 16 2012 04:13 rikter wrote:

Show nested quote +

While you don't understand why Tang self-promotes himself so openly, I'm finding it hard to understand why you would go out of your way to attack him like this. If someone likes his guide and pays him for coaching, that's their decision.

There's nothing wrong with promoting what you believe to be the better option (whether it be you think other guides are better, or he should promote himself differently, etc), but bashing one specific individual is just pathetic.

It's like if my friend was about to buy a new laptop, I would tell him how bad Macs are in comparison to PC in terms of how well they would suit his needs. I sure as hell wouldn't go out to the streets and tell random strangers: "Apple products are terrible! They're so slow, overpriced, you can't customize them, and I hate the way their OS works! I hope you think twice before buying an Apple product stranger."

p.s. don't talk about macs/pcs I was just using it as an example, I don't actually share the believes I inferred above.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 15 2012 19:46 GMT

#341

On April 16 2012 04:33 Fliparoni wrote:
Dont worry, tang. Haters gonna hate. Nothing you can do about that. What you can do something about is just keep on making good guides with good content like you have been lately. Keep up the good work.

Thanks Fliparoni <3

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 15 2012 20:12 GMT

#342

If you actually read any of my first post, you would see that in fact I am an advocate of learning how to "cheese" as people put it, in order to learn the game. So please, it's not about the subject matter. Here is a quote from my first post, to save you the time of reading it.

"As far as the merits of cheesing go: I personally believe that straight up cheese is the best way to learn the game, as you learn how to control a few units, learn how to kill an opponant, and learn to macro while controlling units. Why build a ton of units on a ton of bases when you can't even properly control a few units on 1 base? Others may disagree, but I think they are wrong."

It's an issue of quality. Why would you try and back up your guide with VODs that were almost a year old in some cases, from different patches? This alone is an indicator of how little went into this guide. Why would you not scout at all until 4 minutes? The scouting is even more critical than usual if you want to hit an early-game timing (this is what we should substitute for "cheese" btw); you may find that your build is not likely to succede, so you can pull back before the point of no return and transition, at the least, into a 2 base all-in. These are important aspects of early aggression. And yet they do not feature in this guide.

If you are a PC and your friend is a Mac, and your friend is going to buy his computer from some sketchball in an alley, would you not say to him, "Hey! Look, I don't care if you buy a Mac, just for the love of God please use a more reputable source."

Others may also be coaches, but I challenge you to find a single person who self-promotes harder than Tang. For all the formatting and proper spelling and grammar, the guides are lacking in content.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 15 2012 20:23 GMT

#343

On April 16 2012 05:12 rikter wrote:
It's an issue of quality. Why would you try and back up your guide with VODs that were almost a year old in some cases, from different patches? This alone is an indicator of how little went into this guide. Why would you not scout at all until 4 minutes? The scouting is even more critical than usual if you want to hit an early-game timing (this is what we should substitute for "cheese" btw); you may find that your build is not likely to succede, so you can pull back before the point of no return and transition, at the least, into a 2 base all-in. These are important aspects of early aggression. And yet they do not feature in this guide.
For all the formatting and proper spelling and grammar, the guides are lacking in content.

I provide a "References" section as further reading/listening for my guides, which I consider pretty standard practice. I even made four fresh tutorials specifically on the topic of this Zerg vs Zerg build.

In terms of content, I can't please everyone. I write guides to provide knowledge and tactics that I think will help people. If you don't think they're a valuable resource because the content hasn't helped you, then that's unfortunate. You need only read the comments to see that it has helped others, so perhaps your own bias is all that is holding you back from making improvements in your own play.

When I first started making guides, I was passionate about it but I went about it in the wrong way by being overly self-promotional. It was a mistake, but I received advice from the TL community and mods. Thanks to all of your help, I've learned a lot from my previous errors and made some necessary changes.

I look forward to your quality guides on how to play aggressive Zerg properly, Riktor, and I appreciate your compliments about my spelling and grammar.

Self-promotion =/= Bad Person

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 15 2012 20:53 GMT

#344

[B]On April 16 2012 05:23 TangSC wrote:

I made four tutorials specifically on the topic of this Zerg vs Zerg build.

I look forward to your quality guides on how to play aggressive Zerg properly, and I appreciate your compliments about my spelling and grammar.

Classic. You pick and choose what you answer, and try to shift the focus. I don't care about the four tutorials. At some point, when making this guide, you took those particular replays and added them. And I don't see how you could possibly have mistaken them for recent. So, regardless of what else you did, at the very least you half-assed that. Wouldn't recent replays, from the current patch and metagame be more useful to us?

You follow this up with an of ad hominem attack about me writing z v z guides. What does this have to do with anything? This isn't about me writing guides, this is about you writing "guides" and to what end.

My signature is not in response to you, but in these circumstances it is appropriate. Even moreso because you are charging money. If this is the content you charge for, then people need to know they can get much better for free. If your coaching is somehow on a higher level than these guides, then these really are just teaser ads, and/or you are posting information that you know to be inferior. Which is it?

If you like, you can come participate in my hotkey thread "semi-grid layout (terran)", where we talk about hotkeys and no one has any financial interest.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 15 2012 21:02 GMT

#345

On April 16 2012 05:53 rikter wrote:

Show nested quote +

As impressed as I am that you know what ad hominem is, I made that argument to establish that you lack the ethos to support your claims. Besides, those particular replays are directly relevant to the game, as are the newer replays from season 6 that I posted. There haven't been major shifts in ZvZ, at least not in relation to the style I'm advocating.

If you want to know whether my coaching is valuable, then who better to ask than those who have actually been coached by me:
http://tangstarcraft.com/?page_id=5
http://www.z33k.com/games/starcraft2/coach/tangsc

I've been an English and Essay Writing tutor for nearly seven years, if there is anything I'm good at, it's teaching. Coaching is individualized for a particular student, I ask new students to fill out surveys so I can design lessons specifically for them. These Team Liquid threads are more broad/general guides that can be applied to most players.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 15 2012 21:34 GMT

#346

On April 16 2012 06:02 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

Writing guides and playing games are two different skills, being good at one is no guarantee of the other. Your guides lack in fundamentals; I don't have to be the Shakespeare of ZvZ guides to understand that, just someone with some understanding of the game. There is no reason for you to question my credibility based on my lack of guides. There is no argument there, just an ad hominem attack, a misdirection. The fact that you don't seem to understand why replays from 9 months ago are irrelevant today does not reflect well on your knowledge of the game.

You have conveniently not answered all of my questions. I know that you know how to write because you so carefully pick and choose what you respond to, and even then you respond with a bunch of information that I did not ask for, nor do I care to know. Your responses are designed to cloud the issue and confuse people.

CP`

Canada38 Posts

April 15 2012 21:59 GMT

#347

On April 16 2012 05:12 rikter wrote:
Others may also be coaches, but I challenge you to find a single person who self-promotes harder than Tang.

Why does it matter how hard someone self-promotes? If anything it just shows that he has more dedication to his passion than others.

How about you stop grasping at straws and just stop posting in this thread, considering most of the last posts that aren't you or Tang all agree that you're acting like a fool. It looks rather petty and pathetic that you are singling him out. It doesn't matter what the quality of his coaching or guides are as long as people find value in them and believe that their investment (in the case of paying him to coach them) is worth it.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 15 2012 22:33 GMT

#348

He cannot generate the clients and traffic he wants on his own merit, he needs the exposure from TL. So he posts these shell guides, which have just enough stuff in them to qualify as content (even if the stuff is of dubious quality) and which provide the leeway he needs to promote as hard as he does. He doesn't post these guides because he wants to, he posts them because he has to; if he didn't post anything at all he would be banned for promoting.

If you think I am grasping at straws, and that my arguments are weak, what could you possibly think of Tang, who is evasive and who simply ignores questions he doesn't want to answer, or answers questions you didn't ask instead of the ones that you did?

Tang isn't being singled out, he stands in a class by himself, because I can't think of a single other person on TL who behaves this way.

Stog

United States1 Post

April 15 2012 22:38 GMT

#349

dont hate! appreciate! thanks tang.

your guide is great! i like reading them keep it going!!!

CaptTerrible

United States72 Posts

April 15 2012 23:06 GMT

#350

Personally I think the guide is more than enough content for anyone who wants to use it, and combined with the videos you got yourself an excellent starting point. I've been using this build in just about all my ZvZ matches and so far there has only been a couple of zerg players that I felt actually played well against it and won (playing at a low masters level). Most of my losses have come from bad decisions, bad micro or dumb mistakes.

I feel like the only other thing that could be written in this guide is more along the lines of a general ZvZ guide, like handling cheese, late game transitions, what to do when you're behind, but to be completely honest I think that would all be out of the scope for this guide.

Just got to say thanks for the work put into this guide and the others you have posted. Between the 12 Min Max guide, the Roach/Bling all in guide, and the Rushing Relentlessly guide I have made huge amounts of progress in my game :D I'll definitely be keeping an eye for future guides.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 15 2012 23:19 GMT

#351

If he didn't push his coaching so hard, I don't think anyone would begrudge him the guides, regardless of whether its good or bad or whatever. How is it that you miss all the easy questions that he weasles out of answering? I've been playing games for a long time, and associating with people who do the same. Many different games, all at a high level. And no matter what the specific game happened to be, the winners had a lot of things in common. Nothing Tang does or says resonates with me. Nothing about Tang strikes me as being genuine. Personally, I think all these rah-rah Tang fanboys that spring out of the woodwork anytime someone calls him out have failed some kind of life test. It amazes me that you can't spot him for what he is. It's so obvious.

Fliparoni

205 Posts

April 15 2012 23:54 GMT

#352

If he wants to push his coaching then so what? It's called business. In the last 4 or so guides he's written and that I've read, it's been 99% content with just a little link at the very bottom in the end to his website. Personally I don't find it overbearing at all

If nothing Tang does or says resonates with you, then that's totally fine but that is in the end just your own opinion and it doesn't mean you have to go ruin thread's like these for others. Just ignore it and move along with your life and let others who do find the content written by Tang to be useful read it without having to be subjected to this useless hating. The fact that you come here out of of your way to try and convince people that Tang is this or that and bash people who think otherwise makes me think you are in fact the one who has failed some kind of life test.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 16 2012 00:16 GMT

#353

Have you read the rules about self promotion? Tangs relationship with this site is parasitic. Usually when people want to advertise a business they pay for advertising.

I've read the testimonials on your site Tang, what a ridiculous load of garbage. The posts all appear to be written by you, or at least the same person. Just like the posts on this thread from low post acounts. In fact, one of the names on the comments corresponds to yet another low post acount that has popped up to defend you in another thread.

It's true, if you keep responding to me from your main acount your weaseling will become more and more obvious, but really, enough with the puppet acounts.

Fliparoni

205 Posts

April 16 2012 00:44 GMT

#354

Lol, you think I'm a puppet account? This is actually getting hilarious. "Look at me my hate for Tang blinds me and makes me think that people who are defending Tang MUST be sock puppets" ROFL.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 16 2012 02:06 GMT

#355

It isn't blind (unlike Tang I don't go in blind), and it certainly isn't rage. I gave three reasons why I believe that, and here is a 4th: Tang has a documented history of using puppets. Look at the testimonials on his website and tell me they weren't written by the same person. At least one of those testimonials is linked to another low post acount that pops up to defend Tang.

If this guide is his best work, he isn't much of a coach. And if his understanding of the game does go deeper, then why is he knowingly providing inferior information? Just because someone doesn't have high level execution doesn't mean they can't understand or apply high level strategy. A useful guide is one that takes high level strategy and helps make its core concepts accessable to lower ranked players. Tang's guides are dumbed down bullshit justified by saying, essentially, that it doesn't matter because some lower ranked players who had trouble with the matchup and can now win a few games, so who cares?

Tangs worthless guides show just how little he thinks of and believes in you.

But seriously, go to his website, read the student testimonials, and tell me with a straight face you believe they are real, and not all written by the same person.

discw

United States122 Posts

April 16 2012 02:23 GMT

#356

Just wanted to say I'm a big fan of your guides Tang, very useful for someone at my level (between plat/diamond depending on available playtime, without much time to watch tons of streams/vods). Thanks.

DeathScythe

United States15 Posts

April 16 2012 02:30 GMT

#357

Sorry to interject, this is my first post, but i have been reading TL forums for almost 2 years now.

I used to be a horrible silver zerg player. After reading tangs guides I went from silver to top 3 plat in 3 weeks.

Tang is a very down to earth person who just enjoys teaching (he even responded when i thanked him in SC2 for posting in TL)

I welcome any player who is willing to post useful content that helps players get better. No offense but 90% of post here are either bad info or QQ threads. I really appreciate users like tang and such. So again thank you tang, good or bad you trying to help the community. I do not see a problem with you posting a link to your website, because this is the top 1% of useful information on this forum.

I find the insults here extremely didactic and slightly hypocritical. If anyone has any questions about tangs strats feel free to message me in game BlackDragon #140

Thank you for reading.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 16 2012 03:17 GMT

#358

I am glad you find my insults morally instructive. I think you accidentally searched for an antonym in the thesaurus, instead of a synonym. Unless of course you intend for me to be insulted by having my writing described as morally instructive. As far as being a hypocrit, you would need some evidence that I engage in the same conduct I am accusing Tang of, and of course there is no such evidence, so I am not sure what you mean by that.

I am sorry to hear that you think this guide represents the top 1% that TL has to offer; there's a whole wide world of good stuff out there.

DeathScythe

United States15 Posts

April 16 2012 03:52 GMT

#359

Personal attack aside, i do think your preaching, and i don't care to read your negative comments, if you don't like the guide don't read it. Quit attacking people, honestly no one really cares, i just got so tired of reading your BM i decided to make my first post. Thank you.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 16 2012 04:00 GMT

#360

That wasn't a personal attack. Its hard to really respond to someone when they write inaccurately. In fact, you were the one making the personal attack. You write just like Tang. You shift the focus and don't address the questions.

ClysmiC

United States2192 Posts

April 16 2012 04:05 GMT

#361

Why do all of Tang's guides devolve into flame wars.

Yes, he plays hyper-aggressive, all-in styles. If you don't want to play that style, don't open the thread. But he's high master or grandmaster level, so I think he understands the ins and outs of this playstyle, and is very qualified for writing guides for it.

FairForever

Canada2392 Posts

April 16 2012 04:25 GMT

#362

On April 16 2012 13:05 ClysmiC wrote:
Why do all of Tang's guides devolve into flame wars.

Yes, he plays hyper-aggressive, all-in styles. If you don't want to play that style, don't open the thread. But he's high master or grandmaster level, so I think he understands the ins and outs of this playstyle, and is very qualified for writing guides for it.

I think Tang gets a lot of hate because he constantly overestimates his skill (calling himself GM-level, I don't think he's ever been in GM except in the ladder error in Season 4 which got corrected quickly and he got kicked out). Also because this build isn't innovative by any means - it's simply massing lings and going for the kill.

Second reason is because he doesn't really help anyone learn. He doesn't talk about scouting (which is super important), and his "reactions" to opposing builds are terrible.

He talks about beating 1-base roaches, but how is he going to scout that easily? What if it ends up being a roach/baneling attack? He doesn't talk about tells to look for that.

He talks about responding to early pools, but in my opinion his advice is terrible - I honestly think I played someone today who listened to his advice (high masters) who build a spine after 9pool... he just gave up his economic advantage (in fact I was ahead afterwards even only killing one drone).

Last thing is he really doesn't talk about how to transition out of this build. I had two ZvZs today - I didn't check exact BOs but both looked like his build (earlier than 21 hatch after pool into eventual ling all-in). Because I've read this thread it's extremely easy to scout, and once you know how to hold it it's extremely easy as well, because of defender's advantage. I've held it with both pure lings as well as ling/roach defenses.

I think the premise has promise but Tang's explanation is just simply very weak.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 16 2012 04:33 GMT

#363

If you would read my first post, you would see that my problem is not that this is an all in guide, its that it is a shitty all in guide that is serving as an advertisement for his coaching services. I advocate an all-in style as a means to learn the game!

This is not about cheese v macro. That is his goto line when called out. He tries to distract and misrepresent the issue, with the intention of starting a flame war, because once you start screaming and stop hammering the issue, everyone forgets what it was all about in the first place, and any good points are invalidated by the frenzied ranting.

Do you really think this guide is evidence of high master or grandmaster level skill? It does not seem to be an informed product.

I appreciate your post fairforever. I don't play as zerg, so I can't point out all the exact, specific flaws as eloquently as you.

sertman

United States540 Posts

April 16 2012 04:43 GMT

#364

On April 16 2012 13:33 rikter wrote:
If you would read my first post, you would see that my problem is not that this is an all in guide, its that it is a shitty all in guide that is serving as an advertisement for his coaching services. I advocate an all-in style as a means to learn the game!

This is not about cheese v macro. That is his goto line when called out. He tries to distract and misrepresent the issue, with the intention of starting a flame war, because once you start screaming and stop hammering the issue, everyone forgets what it was all about in the first place, and any good points are invalidated by the frenzied ranting.

Do you really think this guide is evidence of high master or grandmaster level skill? It does not seem to be an informed product.

I appreciate your post fairforever. I don't play as zerg, so I can't point out all the exact, specific flaws as eloquently as you.

if you don't play zerg what qualifies you to say anything about this guide....

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 16 2012 05:25 GMT

#365

Because I play against zerg, because I have played zerg in the past, because I spend a considerable amount of time watching vods and replays of high level play. Because some aspects of the game are fundamental to all races. Are you serious with this? Really?

And the things I have specifically questioned, such as how you can claim this to be a legit guide without any scouting info, or how you can claim to be putting effort in when the attached vods are 9 months old and obsolete, don't require any special knowledge of zerg, just of the game in general.

In classic Tang style you ignore fairforever, who very succinctly points out a whole host of things that are lacking, many of which stem from no scouting. Does me not playing zerg somehow make what fairforever said not relavant?

sertman

United States540 Posts

April 16 2012 05:32 GMT

#366

On April 16 2012 14:25 rikter wrote:
Because I play against zerg, because I have played zerg in the past, because I spend a considerable amount of time watching vods and replays of high level play. Because some aspects of the game are fundamental to all races. Are you serious with this? Really?

And the things I have specifically questioned, such as how you can claim this to be a legit guide without any scouting info, or how you can claim to be putting effort in when the attached vods are 9 months old and obsolete, don't require any special knowledge of zerg, just of the game in general.

In classic Tang style you ignore fairforever, who very succinctly points out a whole host of things that are lacking, many of which stem from no scouting. Does me not playing zerg somehow make what fairforever said not relavant?

it just makes me wonder what on earth you're doing arguing so emphatically about a ZvZ guide when you yourself don't play Z.

i could refute what fairforever said all day but he'd be writing the response, not you, so why are you here?

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 16 2012 06:17 GMT

#367

You actually can't refute what fairforever said, though I would be interested in reading it.

Just because I don't play as zerg doesn't mean I don't watch the games or have an interest in learning more so I can play better against them. I play Terran, I am a fan of sc2 in general. Again, none of this is really relevant. More ad hominem attacks, more misdirection, more not answering questions. The two specific issues I brought up, regarding old vods and the lack of scouting, have also been echoed by other posters. Furthermore, you don't have to be some super gosu zerg to understand no scout til 4 min is bad, no matter the race, and that 9 month old vods are completely irrelevant due to patching and evolution of play. Tang himself has not actually answered either question, if you read the posts you would see this.

Id love for you to please pick, either the scouting issue, or the old vods, and explain what my not playing zerg has to do with my ability to assess that either A) this retarded blind all-in doesn't have enough scouting or B) the fact that 9 month old vods are not useful learning tools.

I know there's been a lot of user names, but it sure seems like this has just been a conversation with one person.

discw

United States122 Posts

April 16 2012 13:28 GMT

#368

Well, every other post the last 3 pages has been one guy, so I dunno if that counts as a flame war.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 16 2012 14:21 GMT

#369

On April 16 2012 13:25 FairForever wrote:

Show nested quote +

First, I am confident in my abilities as a player but I'm certainly aware of my limitations. My accomplishments are making GM seasons 2 and 4 on NA server and being consistently ranked in top master. Granted, that's not an indication of pro-level status but I don't claim to be a highly competitive tournament player, I'd get crushed in a BO7 against any of the top NA, EU, or KR players. This build is not about simply massing lings; that's just phase 1! It's about using timings attacks to secure an advantage so that you can attack again, which differs from the usual style of using a timing attack to secure an advantage in a macro game.

Second, I don't know what additional scouting you're expecting me to talk about in ZvZ. I do not drone scout in the matchup, I use my overlord to scout the expansion by the 4 minute mark - if he hasn't expanded by then, it's likely a 1base all-in. This style of opening (mass zergling) blind counters any 1base all-in except the 1base baneling or early spine/ling all-ins, which I detail correct responses in the stream tutorial video 4. You don't have to do anything other than overlord scout before the 5:30 mark, at which point you're being aggressive with speedlings which will give you all the information you need. In terms of the games you played against opponents who made stylistic errors, you can't honestly say it's my fault that random players on the ladder have made mistakes against you in 1v1.

Finally, I do talk about transitions - this is not a zergling all-in like you say, it's a zergling timing followed up with a roach/ling timing attack, which is a style I enjoy using in ZvZ and has led to it being my best win% matchup. At the very least, this is a viable option that appeals to some players. It's also a great start for someone who is struggling in ZvZ and has no real plan.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 16 2012 14:36 GMT

#370

On April 16 2012 15:17 rikter wrote:
You actually can't refute what fairforever said, though I would be interested in reading it.

Just because I don't play as zerg doesn't mean I don't watch the games or have an interest in learning more so I can play better against them. I play Terran, I am a fan of sc2 in general. Again, none of this is really relevant. More ad hominem attacks, more misdirection, more not answering questions. The two specific issues I brought up, regarding old vods and the lack of scouting, have also been echoed by other posters. Furthermore, you don't have to be some super gosu zerg to understand no scout til 4 min is bad, no matter the race, and that 9 month old vods are completely irrelevant due to patching and evolution of play. Tang himself has not actually answered either question, if you read the posts you would see this.

Id love for you to please pick, either the scouting issue, or the old vods, and explain what my not playing zerg has to do with my ability to assess that either A) this retarded blind all-in doesn't have enough scouting or B) the fact that 9 month old vods are not useful learning tools.

I know there's been a lot of user names, but it sure seems like this has just been a conversation with one person.

"Tang himself has not actually answered either question"
Jesus, I was sleeping!

Here is the answer to the first question you've asked about "Old Vods":

What specifically are you talking about? There are no old vods in this guide. There are old replays from seasons 3/4, as well as newer replays from seasons 5/6. All of replays are relevant, you'll see my opponents open with the Speedlings, Ling/Baneling, Roach Expands, and 1Base All-ins. I don't think the patches have really affected ZvZ significantly, most of the meta-game shifts have been in mid/late game which aren't relevant to the style I'm advocating.

The only guides that features older vods are my ZvT guides that on roach/ling aggression, which I included old vods of how to manage the roach/ling army. Pretty important information, hasn't changed in over time.

Here is the answer to your second question about not scouting until 4minutes:

There's no other way to put this except to say that your opinion that you have to scout before 4min in ZvZ is incorrect. I'm not trying to offend you, after all you're a terran player so there's no real way you would know, but you do not have to drone scout in ZvZ unless you hatch-first or you're going for a spine/ling all-in. The most valuable piece of information will be your opponent's expansion (or lack of expansion) by the 4minute mark. The opening of this build will function the same against any 2base opening.

This is not a "Blind all-in", it's an aggressive opening. I encourage players to experiment with turning it into an all-in by continuing to stream lings if they do significant damage, but I also encourage droning/transitioning with map control (something I stress in the introduction of this guide.) That's why numerous players have responded in this guide saying they've altered the transitions/opening style to suit their more macro-oriented style. Deltrus even wrote a guide on how he uses the ling opening and transitions differently:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=325488

I never wrote this guide to be a definitive be all, end all to Zerg vs Zerg. It's just a reference, and players can choose whether they want to incorporate it into their repertoires.

Thank you for posting these questions though, perhaps I didn't explain it well enough in the OP. I'd also like to thank others for their constructive comments <3

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 16 2012 14:44 GMT

#371

On April 16 2012 11:06 rikter wrote:
But seriously, go to his website, read the student testimonials, and tell me with a straight face you believe they are real, and not all written by the same person.

That's just blatantly untrue, they are all student-written and they even leave their character codes and account names so you can message them.

To be honest, I think you're the only one who has even mentioned my coaching.

FairForever

Canada2392 Posts

April 16 2012 16:16 GMT

#372

On April 16 2012 23:21 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

I think you accurately describe your skill now, so fair enough. I'll take that back. I do remember you getting kicked out of GM in Season 4 though in both your accounts.

I do consider this an all-in. 42 zerglings = 21 drones (of course in a ZvZ you're almost never gonna make the 21 drones, but the point holds).

I think you could do a lot better in a couple of areas to improve this guide, which I hope you do do because this build is very effective all the way up to masters (though it loses effectiveness significantly as you get higher up).

Note I've only watched a minute or so of each guide, simply because I'm not too interested in the build myself nor do I have the time. I based it mostly on what I've read.

1) How to play if your Roach/ling all-in or your ling all-in gets held off. In this case you're pretty far behind but of course it's not a 100% loss. What would you follow up with? If there's no follow-up then I don't know how you can call it an all-in.

You do have a follow-up, which is essentially a roach all-in (since lair tech is "optional"). Are there any ways to transition this to a normal game? If I was facing you and I saw this guide, after seeing the first attack I'd just prepare for another all-in since there seems to be no other option.

2) Some of this guide is way too simplistic: eg. "let the roaches absorb the banes then bring the zerglings in" - well, no good player is simply going to bring the banes to your roaches, he'll keep the banes behind a spine defense or behind roaches or other units such that they won't be hit by your roaches, and will only be brought forward if you attempt to use your lings to engage. I don't think micro is necessarily a must in this guide because you can't really teach micro from a guide.

3) I think you need to be honest with what would beat this build easily - no build is that strong. Things like 15 hatch will give the other player a noticeable advantage over someone using this build. There's nothing wrong with a ZvZ build having a weakness - EVERY opening in ZvZ has issues. But choosing not to address them isn't helpful. How should you react?

1A.Browbeat

Canada26 Posts

April 16 2012 16:20 GMT

#373

My ZvZ has definitely improved using this opening. I don't use the roach transition and other aspects, but the initial ling flood and timing of the queen seem to work pretty well against almost any build. Also, it is tough for zerg to know this is what you are going to do even if he is scouting in your base. A lot of ZvZ consists of trying to secure an advantage so you can simply outproduce your opponent. getting the two early queens and the speed means that if they have gone for banes/ too many spines/ late 2nd queen, they will have a tough time keeping up with your production and so you've arrived at that point where you can outproduce them right at the start.

FairForever

Canada2392 Posts

April 16 2012 16:26 GMT

#374

On April 17 2012 01:20 1A.Browbeat wrote:
My ZvZ has definitely improved using this opening. I don't use the roach transition and other aspects, but the initial ling flood and timing of the queen seem to work pretty well against almost any build. Also, it is tough for zerg to know this is what you are going to do even if he is scouting in your base. A lot of ZvZ consists of trying to secure an advantage so you can simply outproduce your opponent. getting the two early queens and the speed means that if they have gone for banes/ too many spines/ late 2nd queen, they will have a tough time keeping up with your production and so you've arrived at that point where you can outproduce them right at the start.

Just out of curiousity, what level do you play at?

My concern is that this build doesn't really teach you the fundamentals of playing ZvZ - if I know my opponent is playing this build, I will win every single time.

I think it's a great aggressive opener, but players really need to learn roach fundamentals because it's at the core of ZvZ.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 16 2012 16:33 GMT

#375

On April 17 2012 01:16 FairForever wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 16 2012 23:21 TangSC wrote:

On April 16 2012 13:25 FairForever wrote:

Season 4 had a reset of Grand Master (And blizzard didn't tell anyone, they just randomly reset the ladder) so I was removed and wasn't informed and given a chance to get back into GM. That's actually where the "20$ if you leave the game" joke that was posted on Reddit came from, after the reset. You say this build loses effectiveness the higher you go up - tell that to Sheth, Idra, col.ryze, and stephano! The build relies on your mechanics and experience.

The main emphasis is on the first two timing attacks, which are VERY difficult to stop if executed optimally, even if your opponent knows it is coming. I've successfully used repeated the build in ladder against the same opponent, and in BO3 and BO5 formats. I do have a section of the guide on one possible transition out of the roach/ling: getting full 2-base mineral saturation with a macro hatch, an evo, and 1-2 gas to go for a HUGE roach/ling timing (It's desperation mode, but I have won games with it). I skim over macro transitions, like moving into mutas or standard roach/infestor macro, but looking at the title of the guide it's not really the focus.

You're right that I didn't go too deep into analyzing the micro, but what I said about handling the roach/ling is true - when you're going in with 8 roach mass ling, you keep the roaches in front until you kill the banelings then you a-move the lings. Analyzing the replays/stream VODs would be a better way to understand the micro-mechanics.

Finally, I am being honest when I say I don't think this build straight-up loses to anything. It's all about decision making, micro, and multitasking. Even if they blind counter with a large baneling/ling defense and counter-attack right away, you can still win with pure-ling by counter attacking, engaging in favorable ling on ling battles, and microing well to pick off banelings. Then, if they mass spine/ling/bane to defend your roach/ling transition, you can still hit them with a much larger roach/ling (with macro hatch and upgrades) for a chance to overwhelm before mutas/infestors are out.

The biggest issue I've had are dealing with the 1base baneling all-in, which is why I made the stream video analyzing the correct response. And defensive baneling players who micro well and make the necessary lings are difficult to beat, and you could end up behind if you make a mistake, but the roach/ling timing performs extremely well at either equalizing the economies or outright winning.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 16 2012 16:41 GMT

#376

On April 17 2012 01:26 FairForever wrote:

Show nested quote +

I think it's a great aggressive opener, but players really need to learn roach fundamentals because it's at the core of ZvZ.

I say it over and over, SC2 has too much variety to claim that any matchup revolves around specific fundamentals. Upgraded roach/infestor mid-games with a max hydra/roach/infestor late game is very common in ZvZ, but that doesn't mean it's the only way to play. There are various 1-base timings like Ling/baneling, 2 base timings like roach/ling/baneling all-ins, and even tech-oriented play like fast mutalisk. Furthermore, many players execute timing attacks and then transition into standard play (In fact Stephano opens with a Ling style very similar to this one then transitions into double evo roach/infestor).

The widespread belief on the NA server is that cheese/all-in is bad manner. People get upset when they lose to all-in timings, and they assume players who do these types of builds can't play a longer game. What many fail to acknowledge is that a timing attack can just be a way to win the game, or a way to secure an advantage/momentum while transitioning.

FairForever

Canada2392 Posts

April 16 2012 16:43 GMT

#377

On April 17 2012 01:41 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

Of course it's not the only way to play, but every Zerg should know how to play it. Because after the all-in phase, most games go into roach/hydra/infestor vs roach/hydra/infestor. It's the same reason why one shouldn't simply 3rax all-in every game. You can perfect the technique and get into high masters, but you haven't developed a well-rounded skill set.

The problem with this opening is it doesn't seem to have a proper transition into roach/infestor. Sure you get roaches but you're not getting a lair so it's another all-in. It's not a problem per se, it's an issue that players who use it aren't playing standard and aren't developing proper macro techniques that are essential in most ZvZs.

FairForever

Canada2392 Posts

April 16 2012 16:45 GMT

#378

On April 17 2012 01:33 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 17 2012 01:16 FairForever wrote:

On April 16 2012 23:21 TangSC wrote:

On April 16 2012 13:25 FairForever wrote:

It was reset because the wrong people were on the ladder, it wasn't random. There were people in low masters getting into GM, and the #1 player in GM on the previous season didn't get in (ostojiy) originally. Also those who were in GM and supposed to be in GM weren't kicked out.

Yes the build doesn't straight up lose to anything (neither does 14/14). But it's starting at a disadvantage against some openings, which is fine. But you don't detail which openings and how to react to even the game up, which is not okay.

I don't need you to tell me (we're at about the same MMR I believe), but you should detail to your audience what to do.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 16 2012 16:57 GMT

#379

On April 17 2012 01:43 FairForever wrote:

Show nested quote +

The problem with this opening is it doesn't seem to have a proper transition into roach/infestor. Sure you get roaches but you're not getting a lair so it's another all-in. It's not a problem per se, it's an issue that players who use it aren't playing standard and aren't developing proper macro techniques that are essential in most ZvZs.

This isn't a guide to playing roach/infestor, it's not a guide to standard macro. If players want to play a straight-up roach/infestor macro game, that's fine - it's not what I'm analyzing here.

FairForever

Canada2392 Posts

April 16 2012 17:25 GMT

#380

On April 17 2012 01:57 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 17 2012 01:43 FairForever wrote:

On April 17 2012 01:41 TangSC wrote:

On April 17 2012 01:26 FairForever wrote:

I think it's a great aggressive opener, but players really need to learn roach fundamentals because it's at the core of ZvZ.

This isn't a guide to playing roach/infestor, it's not a guide to standard macro. If players want to play a straight-up roach/infestor macro game, that's fine - it's not what I'm analyzing here.

I agree - it's not your responsibility to teach them to play roach/infestor.

I was responding to the person above who said he's been using this to win more ZvZ games.

Destroyr

Germany299 Posts

April 16 2012 17:29 GMT

#381

Tang i wonder why you chose to go for 14/14 pool / gas. I believe (but I am only platinum - consider my zvz the best of my matchups) the hatch first is superior to a pool first opening as a pool first sets you behind if your oponent is taking hatch first and going for roach +1/+1 timing. Because you invest in a - at first defensive build - to switch into hard timings. Your opponent can defend with banes or roaches by blocking of the ramp (except taldarim) and spines... the decision to take early gas is also a bit to expensive economywise. If i cut gas for some more drones i can get a strong footing to switch into hard ling/bane aggression or fast lair tech. Also I am pretty safe against every timing (despite some unfavorable spawnings on soem maps with close distance and opponen goes for 9/10 pool rush). Is it just the low nivaeu of my placement that makes some strong attacks of opponent not work or is their micro to bad. So that my style doesn't have a future vs higher opponents (as I got crushed yesterday by an much higher placed opponent with very defensive roach turtle mode on orhana)?

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 16 2012 17:35 GMT

#382

On April 17 2012 02:25 FairForever wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 17 2012 01:57 TangSC wrote:

On April 17 2012 01:43 FairForever wrote:

On April 17 2012 01:41 TangSC wrote:

On April 17 2012 01:26 FairForever wrote:

I think it's a great aggressive opener, but players really need to learn roach fundamentals because it's at the core of ZvZ.

This isn't a guide to playing roach/infestor, it's not a guide to standard macro. If players want to play a straight-up roach/infestor macro game, that's fine - it's not what I'm analyzing here.

I agree - it's not your responsibility to teach them to play roach/infestor.

I was responding to the person above who said he's been using this to win more ZvZ games.

Oh I thought you were saying that you've judged this guide based on it's ability to help zerg players improve roach/infestor macro, which I think is unfair since that isn't the purpose.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 16 2012 17:38 GMT

#383

On April 17 2012 02:29 Destroyr wrote:
Tang i wonder why you chose to go for 14/14 pool / gas. I believe (but I am only platinum - consider my zvz the best of my matchups) the hatch first is superior to a pool first opening as a pool first sets you behind if your oponent is taking hatch first and going for roach +1/+1 timing.

I prefer pool first because it allows me to get speed/queens earlier, the earlier you can start the ling aggression the better.

1A.Browbeat

Canada26 Posts

April 16 2012 18:02 GMT

#384

On April 17 2012 01:26 FairForever wrote:
Just out of curiousity, what level do you play at?

My concern is that this build doesn't really teach you the fundamentals of playing ZvZ - if I know my opponent is playing this build, I will win every single time.

I think it's a great aggressive opener, but players really need to learn roach fundamentals because it's at the core of ZvZ.

I'm low masters.

HyDrA_solic

Portugal491 Posts

April 16 2012 18:24 GMT

#385

I won using this build vs GM's Zergs.
2 points you need to know:
1) Make sure he knows you made the hatch for drones, by sending 2, 3drones there,
2) Hide your attacking lings, This means use only 6 lings to map control first, hide the rest. Then when speed finishes go for it.

Another thing that almost always happens. With the 1st queen, send her too the natural, inject there, and search for the overlord and kill it. I can do this 75% of the times. Protect that queen with your first 6lings.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 16 2012 18:27 GMT

#386

I have some more questions about the build Tang.

1) If you are on a map with 4 spawns, and aren't using MLG versions or whatever, then what do you do when your ovie rolls up to an empty natural at 4 minutes because you went the wrong way?

2) At the 6 minute mark, it is no trouble at all for hatch first to have 3 queens, 2 spines, some speedlings and more drones. A third spine could be added as you move out (his ovie will know when you do), and his first wave of reinforcements will hit at about the same time you show up. He has a greater economy, defender advantage, fight on spines advantage, pull drones advantage, queen transfuse advantage, and when he holds the attack he is going to take all these advantages and roll you. He won't drone scout either, but unlike your build, his can easily hold what you are throwing, so the late scout isn't such a big deal. His ovie scout at 4 min gives him enough time to respond to what you are doing. Your lack of scouting and consideration of what your opponant is doing seem to be a real flaws in the guide. It's just a blind all-in.

3) I really think a drone scout would improve your build greatly. If you are trying to hit an early-game timing, you need to know early on if the guy is gearing up to hard-counter you, inadvertantly or otherwise, so that you don't proceed with the all-in when it is looking like it won't work. Like I said above in 2), his 4 minute scout is fine, because his build is safe enough to handle the early pressure and because his timing occurs later. 4 minutes is plenty of time for him to adjust his plans if it turns out the situation is wrong.

The drone scout could be used to harass and be annoying and generally just force the other guy to pay attention to it. The drone can help you spot if they are over or under droning. The drone gives you exact timings. The drone could also be used in an early speedling pressure; use it to build a proxy spine to support the attack, like a terran bunker rush: push in with a few lings and start the spine, if he has just been droning, with only a few lings and a queen with no spine, he either needs to pull drones to deal with this which costs him mining or he needs to make units, which will give you some time to catch up. You can punish him if he gets greedy, but If you don't scout what your opponant is up to, all you are really doing is just going all in and hoping that the other guy isn't doing A B or C, and I do not think that such a strategy merits a guide like this.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 16 2012 18:38 GMT

#387

On April 17 2012 03:27 rikter wrote:
I have some more questions about the build Tang.

1) If you are on a map with 4 spawns, and aren't using MLG versions or whatever, then what do you do when your ovie rolls up to an empty natural at 4 minutes because you went the wrong way?

2) At the 6 minute mark, it is no trouble at all for hatch first to have 3 queens, 2 spines, some speedlings and more drones. A third spine could be added as you move out (his ovie will know when you do), and his first wave of reinforcements will hit at about the same time you show up. He has a greater economy, defender advantage, fight on spines advantage, pull drones advantage, queen transfuse advantage, and when he holds the attack he is going to take all these advantages and roll you. He won't drone scout either, but unlike your build, his can easily hold what you are throwing, so the late scout isn't such a big deal. His ovie scout at 4 min gives him enough time to respond to what you are doing. Your lack of scouting and consideration of what your opponant is doing seem to be a real flaws in the guide. It's just a blind all-in.

3) I really think a drone scout would improve your build greatly. If you are trying to hit an early-game timing, you need to know early on if the guy is gearing up to hard-counter you, inadvertantly or otherwise, so that you don't proceed with the all-in when it is looking like it won't work. Like I said above in 2), his 4 minute scout is fine, because his build is safe enough to handle the early pressure and because his timing occurs later. 4 minutes is plenty of time to adjust your plans if it turns out the situation is wrong. The drone scout could be used to harass and be annoying and generally just force the other guy to pay attention to it. The drone can help you spot if they are over or under droning. The drone could also be used in an early speedling pressure; use it to build a proxy spine to support the attack, like a terran bunker rush: push in with a few lings and start the spine, if he has just been droning, with only a few lings, he either needs to pull drones to deal with this which costs him mining or he needs to make units, which will give you some time to catch up. If you don't know what your opponant is up to, all you are really doing is just hoping that the other guy isn't doing A B or C, and I do not think that is a strategy that merits a guide like this.

1) If you send overlords to the correct 2 locations, you'll know based on seeing his overlords or expansion. Then if you don't see overlords, you know he's cross spawn. If for some reason I wasn't sure, I'd build a spine at 23 blindly and cancel once I see he has an expansion.

2) Who goes hatch first into 2 spine 3 queen mass ling? Never seen it. Also, if they did that they definitely couldn't afford to drone as well, so you'd end up ahead in income and there's still a chance the 42speedlings are going to break in or at least kill 2-3 queens and some drones.

3) I disagree, drones are for mining in ZvZ.

You want to proxy spine rush at the 6min mark? This is starting to get a bit ridiculous, please use the build in ZvZ at least once before criticizing it so heatedly.

InfCereal

Canada1759 Posts

April 16 2012 19:55 GMT

#388

On April 17 2012 03:02 1A.Browbeat wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm low masters.

If you're the same Browbeat in my division, you're actually high diamond. (I'm assuming this due to the same name, and same ZvZ strategy according to your match history).

Just a correction, it really has no change on anything, but I would like to add that from my experience the initial mass ling flood is enough to beat low-mid masters. I've only had to transition to the roach push a few times.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 16 2012 20:05 GMT

#389

1) This is still no guarantee of anything. Blindly doing things is just throwing away money. Your timing window is so tight that the effect of throwing away resources is greatly magnified.

2) EGIdra v TSL Symbol. This game is on the front page of sc2casts, from Iron Squid, played on GSL Daybreak.

+ Show Spoiler +

BOTH go hatch first, both go to 3 queens. When Symbol spots that Idra is going to be moving out early he adds a few lings and throws down 2 crawlers which finish at 6:05 and a third which he cancels when he sees Idra is not going all-in. Symbol uses 2 queens to block his ramp and the third in conjunction with spine and ling. Idras build features a 6 min timing push supported with possible early banes (he had the building and gas) and still allows you to transition into whatever you want if you decide to pull back. Symbol, in response to a 6 minute push, was able to go up to 3 queens, still droning and with spines, on two bases, and hold no problem.

3) No, I don't want to proxy spine rush at 6. It would need to be earlier. It's the kind of thing that you could pull off, but only if you scout fast, and really the point is not to debate the merits of proxy spine rushing, it's to show that if you think about it a little bit, there are things you can do with that drone. In z v z its gonna be awhile before your opponant can force you out.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 16 2012 20:08 GMT

#390

On April 17 2012 05:05 rikter wrote:
3) No, I don't want to proxy spine rush at 6. It would need to be earlier. It's the kind of thing that you could pull off, but only if you scout fast, and really the point is not to debate the merits of proxy spine rushing, it's to show that if you think about it a little bit, there are things you can do with that drone. In z v z its gonna be awhile before your opponant can force you out.

What it shows is that you have no experience in ZvZ. Again, I ask you to please at least try the strategy before criticizing it further.

chadissilent

Canada1187 Posts

April 16 2012 20:12 GMT

#391

This is a pretty blind all-in. Some swedish kid did it to me once on EU, and the next 3 times I played him I absolutely crushed his shitty pushes by poking in with lings and keeping an eye on his drone count. Blind all-ins aren't a way to improve, even if you have a "followup" for them. This is especially the case when your "followup" is another all-in, just with more stuff a little later on in the game. They aren't timing attacks, they're all-in because if your opponent holds somewhat efficiently, you're going to lose against a good player.

Flonomenalz

Nigeria3519 Posts

April 16 2012 20:17 GMT

#392

This is a decent enough build to throw in in a BoX, like all of Tang's all ins are.

This is not a good way to play ZvZ or Zerg in general, don't know why people are attacking it on that aspect.

chadissilent

Canada1187 Posts

April 16 2012 20:20 GMT

#393

On April 17 2012 05:17 Flonomenalz wrote:
This is a decent enough build to throw in in a BoX, like all of Tang's all ins are.

This is not a good way to play ZvZ or Zerg in general, don't know why people are attacking it on that aspect.

Any decent opponent will keep an eye on your drone count and/or army composition. This is why it is being attacked, because it might work great to get you into low-mid masters. Once you start playing people that actually know how to play the game and don't rely on memorized build orders, stuff like this falls apart pretty quickly.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 16 2012 20:36 GMT

#394

I think a good summary of this build is that it is a way to avoid playing the game. You just do your thing, hope it works out, and win or lose you aren't in the game for more than 10min(game time). The player pool, even in masters, is diverse enough that this build will work at least some of time, whether you understand why or not. It certainly isn't my idea of fun.

User was warned for this post

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 16 2012 20:42 GMT

#395

On April 17 2012 05:36 rikter wrote:
I think a good summary of this build is that it is a way to avoid playing the game.

And here's a summary of the good points you've made:

________________________________________
________________________________________
________________________________________

User was temp banned for this post.

barrykp

Ireland174 Posts

April 16 2012 20:53 GMT

#396

I tried this today, with mixed results, but I have to say the games were fun, and the constant need to micro is probably better for my multitasking than the defensive baneling stuff I was doing before. I think I'll stick to it for a while; ZvZ is by far the most common matchup I'm playing at the moment.

Just by the by I ran the build order through a planner and there seems to be no reason not to 14 pool (instead of 15). Doing everything else the same gave a 1 second (!!!!!) advantage by the 30 supply mark. Just saying :D

Anyway nice guide, and don't mind the haters!

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 16 2012 21:23 GMT

#397

barry watch the first 6 minutes of game 1 of EGIdra v. TSL Symbol.
http://sc2casts.com/cast8096-IdrA-vs-Symbol-Best-of-3-All-in-1-video-Iron-Squid-Group-Stage

Both players open with versions of the build that Tang is unfamiliar with; the build I described: hatch first, 3 queens. Your overlord scout should get there by 4 min, and this gives you enough time to add spines, add a few more drones, and finally make some lings as he comes out for the attack at 6min. If the other guy is sitting back, you can make the attack yourself or transition into something else.

Nasreth

United States48 Posts

April 17 2012 19:51 GMT

#398

this has become my standard ZvZ opening in high masters. i really enjoy the ability to pressure your opponent, seize map control, and force him to get defensive. i feel that it puts the game in YOUR hands instead of his, because you know exactly what you're up against and they are more or less in the dark. i don't always do the roach followup - sometimes i take a fast third and get banelings instead, but i've won a great many games before the 10 minute mark with this build.

1A.Browbeat

Canada26 Posts

April 17 2012 23:40 GMT

#399

On April 17 2012 04:55 InfCereal wrote:
Just a correction, it really has no change on anything, but I would like to add that from my experience the initial mass ling flood is enough to beat low-mid masters. I've only had to transition to the roach push a few times.

he asked what level i play at :p.

Forbidden17

666 Posts

April 18 2012 01:03 GMT

#400

On April 17 2012 06:23 rikter wrote:
barry watch the first 6 minutes of game 1 of EGIdra v. TSL Symbol.
http://sc2casts.com/cast8096-IdrA-vs-Symbol-Best-of-3-All-in-1-video-Iron-Squid-Group-Stage

Both players open with versions of the build that Tang is unfamiliar with; the build I described: hatch first, 3 queens. Your overlord scout should get there by 4 min, and this gives you enough time to add spines, add a few more drones, and finally make some lings as he comes out for the attack at 6min. If the other guy is sitting back, you can make the attack yourself or transition into something else.

If you like that build so much and blatantly hate Tang's, why don't you make a guide on it?

InfCereal

Canada1759 Posts

April 18 2012 01:10 GMT

#401

On April 18 2012 08:40 1A.Browbeat wrote:

Show nested quote +

he asked what level i play at :p.

Ah, I can't read. xP

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 18 2012 01:37 GMT

#402

On April 18 2012 10:03 Forbidden17 wrote:

Show nested quote +

If you like that build so much and blatantly hate Tang's, why don't you make a guide on it?

I am only qualified to talk so much about zerg, any guide I wrote on zerg would be a waste of space because I only have limited experience playing as zerg. I do however study a considerable amount of zerg replays, and the game in general; enough to spot the weaknesses in this build. I am not some master zerg, that's why it seems so odd that I can spot the flaws, but a SC2 professional cannot.

sertman

United States540 Posts

April 18 2012 06:29 GMT

#403

On April 18 2012 10:37 rikter wrote:
I am only qualified to talk so much about zerg, any guide I wrote on zerg would be a waste of space because I only have limited experience playing as zerg. .

then shut the fuck up rofl you haven't done anything in this thread but talk about why you're credible to talk about how good the guide is and you just completely blew it away with this comment.

if you don't play zerg and you only have limited experience playing as zerg, you aren't going to understand the game better than someone who actually plays zerg at a high level. that's why the best analytical casters were at some point in their lives pro players themselves.

i know you want to be relevant and have a voice blah blah blah but you don't know what your talking about, and have done nothing but making horribly aspergic arguments about your right to have an opinion (even though you consistently defer to others opinions, not your own because you don't know enough to explain them). and in the end you, a NON-ZERG, are shitting up a perfectly good thread for ZERG players such as myself who enjoy short, aggressive games against OTHER ZERGS enjoy the structure that tangs guides give. seriously what are you doing with your life?

User was warned for this post

IDEnergy

Korea (South)74 Posts

April 18 2012 06:40 GMT

#404

Why so much hate going on here? It's strat guide. It's not hate page where you can trash talk about a person saying "your terrible."
All-in builds are also one of the strats and by doing these all-in builds doesn't make one a bad player. Don't deny the fact because all-in builds are pretty much gambling the match.
Anyways, nice build. Nice layout of timings. People might actually learn how to be somewhat aggressive.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 18 2012 11:23 GMT

#405

Any of my original posts would show that this isn't about the build being an all in.

I don't think the fact that I don't play zerg makes my comments any less relevant. They are either apt or they are not. Many people in this thread have echoed my sentiments. I literally spend 2 hours on a typical day watching pro vods, the bulk of which are zerg. You don't need to be king zerg to see how ridiculous this guide is. Has Roger Ebert made a single movie in his life? No? Well then by your logic a beloved and legendary critic should not be crtiquing films.

Tang himself plead ignorance on hatch first into 3 queens z v z. He said he had never heard of it. I picked the first z v z I hadn't yet watched and both pros use the build I just described. If he is such an informed player then how did he not know about this? It literally took me 30s to find that vid, and I just wonder how Tang could be so unaware.

As far as my life goes I am going to spend it poking holes in weasel's arguments.

monk

United States8476 Posts

April 18 2012 11:33 GMT

#406

On April 18 2012 20:23 rikter wrote:
Any of my original posts would show that this isn't about the build being an all in.

I don't think the fact that I don't play zerg makes my comments any less relevant. They are either apt or they are not. Many people in this thread have echoed my sentiments. I literally spend 2 hours on a typical day watching pro vods, the bulk of which are zerg. You don't need to be king zerg to see how ridiculous this guide is. Has Roger Ebert made a single movie in his life? No? Well then by your logic a beloved and legendary critic should not be crtiquing films.

Tang himself plead ignorance on hatch first into 3 queens z v z. He said he had never heard of it. I picked the first z v z I hadn't yet watched and both pros use the build I just described. If he is such an informed player then how did he not know about this? It literally took me 30s to find that vid, and I just wonder how Tang could be so unaware.

As far as my life goes I am going to spend it poking holes in weasel's arguments.

I actually have a lot of problems with Tang myself, but right now, you're just being a dick.

barrykp

Ireland174 Posts

April 18 2012 13:32 GMT

#407

On April 18 2012 20:23 rikter wrote:
Tang himself plead ignorance on hatch first into 3 queens z v z. He said he had never heard of it. I picked the first z v z I hadn't yet watched and both pros use the build I just described. If he is such an informed player then how did he not know about this? It literally took me 30s to find that vid, and I just wonder how Tang could be so unaware.

As far as my life goes I am going to spend it poking holes in weasel's arguments.

Relentless negativity of this kind is something of a blight in this forum (and against the rules). Poking holes for the sake of it is not constructive.

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

April 18 2012 13:40 GMT

#408

On April 17 2012 03:27 rikter wrote:3) I really think a drone scout would improve your build greatly. If you are trying to hit an early-game timing, you need to know early on if the guy is gearing up to hard-counter you, inadvertantly or otherwise, so that you don't proceed with the all-in when it is looking like it won't work. Like I said above in 2), his 4 minute scout is fine, because his build is safe enough to handle the early pressure and because his timing occurs later. 4 minutes is plenty of time for him to adjust his plans if it turns out the situation is wrong.

Drone scouting in ZvZ, especially this build, just doesn't make any sense, it's a waste of minerals. All you want to know is if your opponent is 1basing or not, and your overlords find that out for free. You don't need to drone scout to see if it's a hard counter, because there is no such thing. If they are on 1base, getting an extra spine makes sense, and not going for the ling attack. If they have a nat up, you go for the ling timing. There's NOTHING a drone scout tells you which makes any difference at all, yet it costs money to send it.. so why do you claim it's a good idea?

Advocado

Denmark994 Posts

April 18 2012 15:34 GMT

#409

Well I tried it out on the ladder and it does have creditability for me on the EU server. I took out a few low master/mid master zergs as a diamond zerg. It can severely put you ahead and make the rest of the game very easy. Obviously it gets harder as the opponent builds more banelings, but people are getting ridiculously greedy in the zvz matchup because people lean towards either a roach or ling heavy metagame.

IT requires correct precise control though for this build not to fall through completely though.

Gj tang.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 18 2012 16:21 GMT

#410

On April 18 2012 22:40 Tobberoth wrote:

Show nested quote +

I mention this because if you want this to be something other than a blind allin, the ovie scout shows up too late. Just blindly doing this seems like setting yourself up for a loss to more than a handful of opponants. Of course showing up with 42 lings at 6 minutes in is going to win you some games, I just think that you need a much better reason than that to not go hatch first, when the hatch first 3 queen build can also generate a 6:00 or so timing attack, has enough to hold against such an attack, and allows you to transition into anything you want.

I personally would be interested in finding out as early as possible if I was up against something that can hold the all-in. If you say that you can't afford to lose the mining, then ok, but if your build can't afford the scouting to figure out if youre making a huge mistake or not, then maybe that build needs tweaking.Even if you do scout at 4 and try to transition out, you are at a big disadvantage against hatch first, because unless you attack him his economy will be better from the earlier hatch, and he can hold the attack anyways, so its a lose-lose situation. I think if you want to do the build as is, the most important timing is the hatchery. If he doesn't go hatch first I think you could be in ok shape, but against hatch first I would want to abandon this plan. And that's why if I were hellbent on doing this build, I would scout early, and I think end up less behind because I would be able to transition out earlier. The attack just isn't strong enough and doesn't hit early enough to just do it blind.

CaptTerrible

United States72 Posts

April 18 2012 17:27 GMT

#411

I don't think your drone scout is going to tell you if the other player is building 3 queens and a spine, it tells you if he expanded or not which is also what your overlord does. I have had no trouble finding the opponents base before 4 minutes with my overlords so I really don't see why using a drone here would be useful in this build. Even afterwards you have 6 lings that you can use to continue and scout for more information.

I do think the whole 3 queen spine build is a pretty good defense for this, and I'm not sure what would be the optimal response to so much defense, but at this point we do have map control, and the 17 hatch which I would argue doesn't put us in an auto lose situation. Also I generally start attacking as soon as speed is done, which is well before 41 supply, so you don't necessarily have to build those last few lings.

Also, hatch first doesn't always imply this 3 queen + spine defense since many zergs still just defend with banelings. If he can't seal off his main and force you to fight next to his spine there is a very good chance that you can pick of his queens and do some economic damage. Given this I think it would be a bad choice to abandon this build based off a fast expand, I'd rather pull a more economical version of this build and keep up pressure in the case that he doesn't queen wall his ramp.

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

April 18 2012 18:05 GMT

#412

On April 19 2012 01:21 rikter wrote:

Show nested quote +

There's a good reason most pro zergs do not drone scout: It doesn't tell them anything useful. The scouting information you're talking about is either obtained by overlords or initial lings... drone scouts ONLY see if it's a hatch first or not.

Most good players drone scout only if they are hatching first to see if their opponent is going for an early pool... because of this, many players such as snute automatically assumes their opponent is hatching first if they see a drone scout.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 18 2012 19:22 GMT

#413

Gotcha, thank you for clarifying the drone scouting thing. I see now that you are right, the overlord does give you enough time to pull back a bit, and the drone would be driven out before any tech stuff went down anyways. Hatch first isn't necessarily the end of this build.

I guess the thing I am having the hardest time with here is that against hatch first, at 6 minutes, hatch first with queens and spine and speedlings can hold this, and be ahead economically. Im not sure what exactly is being exploited at 6 minutes, you know? There doesn't seem to be any real reason to delay the hatchery to go pool first, unless you are really worried about super early pool. And you cant be that worried because no drone scout. Wouldn't any temporary advantage in units that you have be erased by defenders advantage when you show up to fight, and his economy can take care of the rest?

tl/dr: Hatch first means more larva, drones, queens and creep. This attack just doesn't seem strong enough to voluntarily give up the benefits of hatch first.

Stemi

1 Post

April 18 2012 20:18 GMT

#414

I dont know if everyone does this, but I use the first 6lings to gain towers and scout the opponent. If I see I can bw aggressive before 42 longs and speed I am. If im correct the first 12 to 22lings (no speed)hits a good bit sooner than 6 mins. This might be the benefit of this build over hatch first your looking for. Let me know if what i'm saying makes since or not.

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

April 18 2012 20:41 GMT

#415

On April 19 2012 04:22 rikter wrote:
Gotcha, thank you for clarifying the drone scouting thing. I see now that you are right, the overlord does give you enough time to pull back a bit, and the drone would be driven out before any tech stuff went down anyways. Hatch first isn't necessarily the end of this build.

I guess the thing I am having the hardest time with here is that against hatch first, at 6 minutes, hatch first with queens and spine and speedlings can hold this, and be ahead economically. Im not sure what exactly is being exploited at 6 minutes, you know? There doesn't seem to be any real reason to delay the hatchery to go pool first, unless you are really worried about super early pool. And you cant be that worried because no drone scout. Wouldn't any temporary advantage in units that you have be erased by defenders advantage when you show up to fight, and his economy can take care of the rest?

tl/dr: Hatch first means more larva, drones, queens and creep. This attack just doesn't seem strong enough to voluntarily give up the benefits of hatch first.

Well, I think you could go hatch first if you want, but speed will be delayed by quite a bit, which in turn delays the whole attack. The reason why 6 minutes is good is because a player going for banes after hatch should not have banes ready (I think you can have banes ready with a slick build, but I think they should be morphing as the initial lings hit their base usually).

Personally, I always do this attack no matter what I scout because at my level (high plat EU), you will generally do awesome damage no matter what build they went (though it will often not be game winning), I usually kill at least one queen and two workers, sometimes even their nat if they went roach opening and don't defend well. However, I think you can easily play a safer style by being active with your first 6 lings, so you can go back to drone production earlier if you see that your opponent is making a strong defense. I definitely think 3 queens, a spine and lings can hold this attack, but I don't think it's a hard counter... you should be able to do some damage (kill a queen or two) and deny mining for a while, so you have time to drone back into the game.

As for this build not being worth losing the benefits of hatch first, that's a bit of a strong statement considering that 14/14 is still very much so a standard in ZvZ. Hatch first is good, especially on larger maps, but it can be a bit coinflippy and hard to defend against early pools and early baneling play. It's really up to personal preference if you prefer hatch first or pool first, and if you're the kind of player who likes to pool first, I'd say this build is great if you want to be aggressive.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 19 2012 11:29 GMT

#416

You really think the faster ling speed is worth it? Hatch first does get speed later but it doesn't have to be that much later. In Idra v symbol idra opens hatch first into early baneling nest and still had an attack at 6 min. Symbol could have attacked at 6 minutes, if he wasn't defending.

With 14/14 you could get early banes, and with that you can exploit your opponant bc you got tech early, and you could punish him for being greedy.

Honestly though I think if you hit with the first 22 lings earlier and drone behind it you could be better off. Because come 6 min the other guy has ling speed too, so youve missed your window where you actually have a tech advantage.

ZeroSix

England54 Posts

April 19 2012 12:21 GMT

#417

worked 100% for me so far. its a good build.

even if you dont all in its good to get a lead by killing some drones and a queen or 2.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 19 2012 14:36 GMT

#418

On April 19 2012 04:22 rikter wrote:

I guess the thing I am having the hardest time with here is that against hatch first, at 6 minutes, hatch first with queens and spine and speedlings can hold this, and be ahead economically. Im not sure what exactly is being exploited at 6 minutes, you know? There doesn't seem to be any real reason to delay the hatchery to go pool first, unless you are really worried about super early pool.

It does make it easier to deal with early pool, but also you get your first queen earlier. That means you actually can engage at the opponent's expansion by 5:45 or so (with 22lings and speed). I should have mentioned this in the OP and I will edit it, because it's a crucial timing to hit and do some damage before spines/queens/banes. If you're able to kill a queen or 2-3 morphing banes with your first 22 lings, you're almost guaranteed to end it with the reinforcements.

Here's a game I played against Nerchio the other day: http://drop.sc/163564

Edit: I've actually uploaded a few more from the last few days, showing situations where even if you're behind due to your opponent playing well, you can still win with the follow-up roach ling or the second follow-up 3hatch roach/ling:

http://drop.sc/163571
http://drop.sc/163572
http://drop.sc/161020

Zheryn

Sweden3653 Posts

April 19 2012 14:56 GMT

#419

Can you link a replay of how you deal with a 16h/15p into triple queen at ramp + spine with delayed gas, skipping speed for banes? Don't want to look through like 30 replays

I want to know if that hatch first build is as safe as if feels like for me.

barrykp

Ireland174 Posts

April 19 2012 15:34 GMT

#420

I've had a lot of success with this build after maybe 10 or so games with it I think I've only lost two. Many players successfully hold off the first attack but then drone up like madmen and lose to the follow up. I've won a few games that should have been dead lost like that.

The first attack is when ling speed is done so I'd say the timing is pretty important. I thought the 17 hatch 16 queen stuff was a little bit strange so I ran the requirements through one of those optimisers to see if it would come up with a better order for reaching the same position (I took the time for speed finishing and a count of the lings), and the optimiser came up with the 17 hatch 16 queen thing as well (on its own), so for that particular timing I would say the build is optimised. Anyway this guide is as much a playing philosophy as it is a strict order. You could play like this after a 14/14 and probably the experience would be similar, but while that gets speed earlier you wouldn't have as sizeable a ling army when it finishes, and your hatch is delayed somewhat. A mass ling timing would come much later.

Edit: lol at the Nerchio game; he knew what was coming and still lost.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 19 2012 17:08 GMT

#421

I appreciate the clear answers to my questions. That first window can be pretty narrow with those first 22 lings though. As far as the build order optimizer goes, it would be helpful to post the numbers for hatch first, just to compare?

Angel, no matter what the zerg is doing he needs to be spending all the larva. Your point about not needing it to be a race to 80 before you start playing is true, but even if you build units you still don't want those larva sitting.

I think theres definitely a spot for a build to punish the hatch first, I just don't think this is it. I think it tries to be a hybrid of cheese/macro, and in doing so you wind up weakening both the attack and your economy. Its true that when you are in his base with the lings you can drone behind it, you are just catching up to him, because he already has the drones, and theyve been mining longer, and he is still adding drones while you are catching up. So unless you kill him outright or do some serious damage, it isn't looking good. It seems like if you want to really punish hatch first you need to hit either earlier or harder.

There are reasons why someone might not want the game to go long, and one way or another with this build I don't see the game going long. Maybe some of these reasons could be addressed?

Edit: Just watched this and wanted to add that DRG v Idra is definitely worth watching if you want aggressive ZvZ. Definitely an example of the things I am talking about in this post. Just got posted today.
http://sc2casts.com/cast8155-IdrA-vs-Dongraegu-Best-of-3-All-in-1-video-EG-Masters-Cup-EG-vs-Complexity

CaptTerrible

United States72 Posts

April 19 2012 19:03 GMT

#422

On April 20 2012 02:08 rikter wrote:
I appreciate the clear answers to my questions. That first window can be pretty narrow with those first 22 lings though. As far as the build order optimizer goes, it would be helpful to post the numbers for hatch first, just to compare?

Angel, no matter what the zerg is doing he needs to be spending all the larva. Your point about not needing it to be a race to 80 before you start playing is true, but even if you build units you still don't want those larva sitting.

I think theres definitely a spot for a build to punish the hatch first, I just don't think this is it. I think it tries to be a hybrid of cheese/macro, and in doing so you wind up weakening both the attack and your economy. Its true that when you are in his base with the lings you can drone behind it, you are just catching up to him, because he already has the drones, and theyve been mining longer, and he is still adding drones while you are catching up. So unless you kill him outright or do some serious damage, it isn't looking good. It seems like if you want to really punish hatch first you need to hit either earlier or harder.

There are reasons why someone might not want the game to go long, and one way or another with this build I don't see the game going long. Maybe some of these reasons could be addressed?

It's a very small window to punish hatch first, but it does exist. What's good about this build is that you do get a good amount of speedlings out, and speedlings are very very good at punishing sloppy, greedy, or bad play, and hatch first is already a pretty intricate build to play perfectly. A lot of this build is in the execution and it's sad to say but many zerg players don't keep their queens on hold position when they are blocking the ramp, which lets you get the surround followed by the all in to win.

There are tons of situations that the ling player can take advantage of, in the end there is almost never a point where my initial lings are useless. Also its good to note that those 22 lings often do damage, either in killing a queen or in forcing zerglings out of the opponent rather than drones. If he went banelings then its all micro which can go either way. I'm not the best at micro, but its fairly simple micro and the whole ling bling situation should be familiar for all zerg players.

I've also noticed that if the zerg player committed to the spine queen defense that they haven't really started getting any extra income from their hatch first, which is a bit of a window to catch up. I've often found that with aggressive scouting that it's easy to catch up in drone count, many times its because my queens have been injecting full time where his might be on the ramp for one or two inject rounds. In my experience ZvZ is such a sensitive match up that economic leads go back and fourth, it's usually whoever can hold their third first when a lead becomes pretty solid. Unless you mess up your micro and lose everything to two blings - or did no damage - you can still have a good game if the first 22 lings didn't outright give you a win situation.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 19 2012 19:52 GMT

#423

On April 20 2012 04:03 CaptTerrible wrote:

Show nested quote +

You can punish sloppy play for sure. Btw, the extra spines in the 3 queen build are made in response to scouting, not blind, so the resources aren't wasted. Defending comes down to managing the queens, not just hold position, but having energy for transfuse. No or poor transfuses make it hard to hold. I'll bet you could beat the same person with this a few times in a row, but once they figure out how to hold it, you will never beat them again with it. If you use this build regularly, you are just going to get promoted to the league that has the people who can beat this, and then what? Learn how to play more complicated games on the fly against people much better than you?

CaptTerrible

United States72 Posts

April 19 2012 21:02 GMT

#424

On April 20 2012 04:52 rikter wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 20 2012 04:03 CaptTerrible wrote:

I'm not at the point where I play the same people over and over again on ladder so it's not much of a worry for me. I'll also let you know when people start holding this play regularly, as for now most of low master up to and through mid master still don't play well against this build. As for learning to play complicated games I generally leave that to practicing with friends in custom games. But back to the subject, this build works really well through at least half of masters on ladder, and around my level I've found it doesn't put you extremely behind unless you completely forget your mechanics. I've only encountered this 3 queen defense twice on ladder, I'd like to look more into that if you got links to replays or free vods.

sertman

United States540 Posts

April 19 2012 22:32 GMT

#425

On April 20 2012 06:02 CaptTerrible wrote:
I'm not at the point where I play the same people over and over again on ladder so it's not much of a worry for me. I'll also let you know when people start holding this play regularly, as for now most of low master up to and through mid master still don't play well against this build. As for learning to play complicated games I generally leave that to practicing with friends in custom games. But back to the subject, this build works really well through at least half of masters on ladder, and around my level I've found it doesn't put you extremely behind unless you completely forget your mechanics. I've only encountered this 3 queen defense twice on ladder, I'd like to look more into that if you got links to replays or free vods.

yeah i agree i'm mid-high diamond with a 75% win percentage using this build over the last two seasons, and i would say that about half of the games do not end with the initial ling push. this build isn't a free ticket to masters, you need to be able to hold early pools and transition to and play the midgame at a competent level, which requires mechanical and decision making ability on par with your opponent. there is noone who is in a higher level that they deserve to be because they play this ZvZ style lol, im not sure what the other guy is trying to argue...

mind0killer

United States26 Posts

April 19 2012 23:22 GMT

#426

I know I'm a bit late for answering this question, but I'll give my two cents anyhow.

To me, the greatest advantage that zerg has in a macro-based play style is that their production capability is much like a rubber band. By droning hard and hitting injects, you are tightening the band so that you can snap back at your opponent in the perfect moment.

If you drone too hard, the rubber band is liable to snap back at you and your opponent will crush through.

If you go middle of the road (some drones and some units) you may never get the critical tension you need to snap your opponent.

ZvZ, is interesting, because this game mechanic is available to both players. Thus, there is a delicate balance of tension. The winner is usually the player that manages to keep his play just a bit tighter.

On the other hand, very aggressive play attempts to somewhat bypass this game mechanic. Heavy aggression prevents your opponent from reaching the critical tension he needs to kill you, meanwhile you are building the momentum you need to crush though.

I think in ZvZ it is nice to be capable of both play styles, and I have had success in both.

isclaimer:

I am a low league player, so I will avoid talking about specific strategies. But, I do appreciate the basics of SC2 game mechanics. I like the way things work in this game, and I like to visualize game mechanics in appealing ways (zerg with rubber band macro, protoss as a brick layer sealing up the cracks, terran as a clock with giant fist instead of a cuckoo bird)

Understanding how your race (and others) works in an intuitive sense gives me personally a greater incentive to work on my basic mechanics. I know if my macro is solid, I can use the advantages of my race to crush my opponent. Thus, I can play the game successfully without focusing on the flawless execution of specific strategies.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 19 2012 23:31 GMT

#427

Just so y'all know, Stephano drone scouts ZvZ... Here are some video series that feature things I have been asking about. They are all in ones, and the total length is an hour, so I dont want to embed them here.

http://sc2casts.com/cast8162-Stephano-vs-NEXLife-Best-of-3-All-in-1-video-Iron-Squid-Group-Stage (Drone scout)
http://sc2casts.com/cast8155-IdrA-vs-Dongraegu-Best-of-3-All-in-1-video-EG-Masters-Cup-EG-vs-Complexity (Games feature: a 14/14, an early pool, a hatch first into 3 queens gets busted
http://sc2casts.com/cast8096-IdrA-vs-Symbol-Best-of-3-All-in-1-video-Iron-Squid-Group-Stage (Hatch first into 3 queens)

It surprises me that you could win such a high percentage of the games against masters competition, thats all. Given the way the game decides the leagues based on your relative ability, I would have thought the ceiling for this build would be lower than masters. Since GM is so exclusive anyways, a masters ceiling isn't really a ceiling at all, so you have managed to convince me that even though in theory this should be held easily, for whatever reason it is not happening in practice enough to be a deterrent.

The games I watch all seem to feature either hatch first into an attack between 6-7min, or super early pool. Tangs build gets the first queen out quicker, but hatch first gets the second and third queens faster, and its the third queen I think that is key to holding against this. You must have transfuses for the spine crawler(s). Watch DRG v Idra, Idra pushes at 630 with ten roaches and ten lings. DRG has crawlers up, but his queens are dry when Idra hits and once the crawlers go down its tough. Gotta manage that queen energy. To punish hatch first the pros pool earlier than this. Watch the vids posted above.

Bellazuk

Canada146 Posts

April 19 2012 23:50 GMT

#428

I dont see how viable this build can be, I see zerg everyday on ladder do this kind of thing to me, I outmicro them with lings and banes and they rage quit .

CaptTerrible

United States72 Posts

April 20 2012 01:20 GMT

#429

On April 20 2012 08:31 rikter wrote:
Just so y'all know, Stephano drone scouts ZvZ... Here are some video series that feature things I have been asking about. They are all in ones, and the total length is an hour, so I dont want to embed them here.

http://sc2casts.com/cast8162-Stephano-vs-NEXLife-Best-of-3-All-in-1-video-Iron-Squid-Group-Stage (Drone scout)
http://sc2casts.com/cast8155-IdrA-vs-Dongraegu-Best-of-3-All-in-1-video-EG-Masters-Cup-EG-vs-Complexity (Games feature: a 14/14, an early pool, a hatch first into 3 queens gets busted
http://sc2casts.com/cast8096-IdrA-vs-Symbol-Best-of-3-All-in-1-video-Iron-Squid-Group-Stage (Hatch first into 3 queens)

It surprises me that you could win such a high percentage of the games against masters competition, thats all. Given the way the game decides the leagues based on your relative ability, I would have thought the ceiling for this build would be lower than masters. Since GM is so exclusive anyways, a masters ceiling isn't really a ceiling at all, so you have managed to convince me that even though in theory this should be held easily, for whatever reason it is not happening in practice enough to be a deterrent.

The games I watch all seem to feature either hatch first into an attack between 6-7min, or super early pool. Tangs build gets the first queen out quicker, but hatch first gets the second and third queens faster, and its the third queen I think that is key to holding against this. You must have transfuses for the spine crawler(s). Watch DRG v Idra, Idra pushes at 630 with ten roaches and ten lings. DRG has crawlers up, but his queens are dry when Idra hits and once the crawlers go down its tough. Gotta manage that queen energy. To punish hatch first the pros pool earlier than this. Watch the vids posted above.

If you open up hatch first it is pretty common to drone scout to win against the really early pool cheeses that are around. There is an extremely comprehensive guide out there about hatch first play against 6/7/8 pools and how to beat the cheese, but the main thing is the drone scout to tell what kind of all in is coming. With pool first builds I don't feel the need to drone scout since my lings will be out quicker, all I want to know is if my opponent opened pool first or hatch first and an overlord suffices for that.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 20 2012 14:50 GMT

#430

On April 20 2012 08:31 rikter wrote:
Just so y'all know, Stephano drone scouts ZvZ...

If he was planning to open with pool before hatch, he wouldn't scout. I believe he drone-scouted in that game with the intention of going hatch-first.

rikter

United States352 Posts

April 20 2012 15:51 GMT

#431

Edit to add:
http://sc2casts.com/cast8134-NesTea-vs-Stephano-Best-of-3-IPL-4-Winners-Round

Another great series, featuring a proxy spine rush! This just came out today. So it seems like maybe I wasn't so far off base with my original comments. Even if they may not apply all the time, all of them have popped up in these very recent casts of ZvZ at a high level, on a big stage.

So while you wouldn't want to cut any more economy in this particular build, it's not as if it has no place in the matchup, as was alleged in some earlier posts. Given the recent pro games, maybe looking at hatch-first with multiple queens would be worth putting in the guide, at the very least to talk about how this build matches up against it.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

April 21 2012 17:36 GMT

#432

On April 21 2012 00:51 rikter wrote:
Edit to add:
http://sc2casts.com/cast8134-NesTea-vs-Stephano-Best-of-3-IPL-4-Winners-Round

Another great series, featuring a proxy spine rush! This just came out today. So it seems like maybe I wasn't so far off base with my original comments. Even if they may not apply all the time, all of them have popped up in these very recent casts of ZvZ at a high level, on a big stage.

So while you wouldn't want to cut any more economy in this particular build, it's not as if it has no place in the matchup, as was alleged in some earlier posts. Given the recent pro games, maybe looking at hatch-first with multiple queens would be worth putting in the guide, at the very least to talk about how this build matches up against it.

That was an early pool spine rush, very different from opening 14 or 15pool and trying to spine rush. Hatch first into multiple queens is standard, what you first proposed was hatch first into 3 queen 2 spine before the 6min mark, which is way too large of a mineral investment that early.

RimJaynor

Canada145 Posts

May 03 2012 05:40 GMT

#433

I really love this build. Now after reading the battle next future balance changes.
Queens will have 50 Starting energy. This means that in the early game 4 queen blocks will be much harder to stop?
What do you think? In all fairness you could save the extra 25 energy and have 2 injects for ur hatcheries when your natural pops. but again 4 queen/2 spine blocks could be hard to hold against.

izual155

United States48 Posts

May 03 2012 15:02 GMT

#434

I just 14 14 ling bane pressure, an drone behind it and once im satisfied i got for plus 1 timming attack expo behind it. i never be to greedy and go for a quick 3rd just cause i like playing safer than riskier.

izual155

United States48 Posts

May 03 2012 15:07 GMT

#435

On May 03 2012 14:40 RimJaynor wrote:
I really love this build. Now after reading the battle next future balance changes.
Queens will have 50 Starting energy. This means that in the early game 4 queen blocks will be much harder to stop?
What do you think? In all fairness you could save the extra 25 energy and have 2 injects for ur hatcheries when your natural pops. but again 4 queen/2 spine blocks could be hard to hold against.

i did spanishiwa since i played zerg until i got into high masters, it doesent work, if they see 4 queens an never attack an take a quick third you just lose. i might be able to see if you went for speedlings still but idk how that would work out since you would have to make all that stuff like the spines an 4 queens. but idk i can only see this build work if you hatch first and then 14 pool an get lucky by making only queens but if he goes for 14 14 hes gonnan speedlng pressure with like 22 lings or so and 8ish before speed.
what im trying to say is its possible but any cheese and i dont think i will work would have to test it to an extent at least before trying it on the ladder

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

May 10 2012 14:34 GMT

#436

The 50-energy buff would have made attacks like this significantly weaker, but luckily they didn't go through with this change. Queens with additional range won't make the largest difference against speedlings.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

May 10 2012 14:36 GMT

#437

On May 04 2012 00:07 izual155 wrote:

Show nested quote +

The "spanishiwa" style of going zero-gas until full saturation has lost popularity for that reason - opponents will have complete map control with their speedlings, and be able to take a much earlier 3rd with no fear of losing it. If someone build 4 queens and 3 spines at their expansion, I would cut speedlings at 30~ supply and transition into earlier upgrades, a faster 3rd, and more drones.

Malgent

10 Posts

May 11 2012 02:22 GMT

#438

Thank you very much for this. I absolutely love your aggressive tips. I don't care so much if they aren't the absolutely most effective way of playing, but heck, I wouldn't know anyway. I'm just some Gold Zerg that probably should be in Silver or Bronze. But aggressive play works for me, and there's no reason to fix what isn't broken.

ChaZzza

United Kingdom162 Posts

May 11 2012 14:52 GMT

#439

I've been getting a bit bored of unholy macro zerg play recently, mainly coz it feels like I'm endlessly defending and once BL do pop my opponent gg's. So this is a nice strat to play with.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

May 14 2012 01:09 GMT

#440

On May 11 2012 23:52 ChaZzza wrote:
I've been getting a bit bored of unholy macro zerg play recently, mainly coz it feels like I'm endlessly defending and once BL do pop my opponent gg's. So this is a nice strat to play with.

I've opened with this style and made it to broodlords! There is a lot of room to read between the lines with a style like this, it's just my own personal preference to be aggressive all game long.

Malgent

10 Posts

May 20 2012 07:29 GMT

#441

On May 14 2012 10:09 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

I've opened with this style and made it to broodlords! There is a lot of room to read between the lines with a style like this, it's just my own personal preference to be aggressive all game long.

That's precisely what I love about your strategies: they allow for aggressive, fun play, but also allow, if the user wishes, to transition to an economic build at any point. Admittedly not all your builds have this flexibility, but what can you do? Not everything is perfect.

Also, I was wondering, do you possibly have an aggressive Zerg build that finds good use for Infestors? I've seen some of your other guides describing Infestor use, though none seem to have the laid-out format that this build has, for example the opening, mid-game transition, and late-game transition. Infestors are some of my favorite units, and I sometimes find it hard to incorporate them in my aggressive play. Usually it's because I feel that I can't afford to spend my resources on such units, or it's that I feel too pressed to do so. An aggressive build that strongly incorporates (though doesn't necessarily revolve around) the use of Infestors would be amazing. I apologize if you already have a guide for a strategy like this and I missed it somehow.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

May 20 2012 15:18 GMT

#442

On May 20 2012 16:29 Malgent wrote:

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I use 4-6 infestors when I'm going for a maxed-out push against Terran or Zerg, but I haven't written a guide on it. Perhaps I'll do a new guide on the composition I use in late game ZvZ (12-16 hydra, 4-6 infestors, and the rest roaches with +2+2)

EDIT: Also, sometimes I make a TON of zerglings in ZvT (after I reach full 2-base saturation with a 3rd hatchery building) and end up winning with Speedling/Infestor aggression if they overextend their army or lose all their hellions.

Malgent

10 Posts

May 20 2012 18:49 GMT

#443

On May 21 2012 00:18 TangSC wrote:

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Okay, thanks. Speedling/Infestor Aggression in ZvT sounds like something interesting I could try to experiment with. Certainly it sounds fun~

sertman

United States540 Posts

May 20 2012 21:03 GMT

#444

hi tang,

what is the best response using this build to the 4 queen spine openings gaining popularity after the patch?

Lord Gilgamesh

Angola17 Posts

May 20 2012 21:27 GMT

#445

No offense but this thread basically screams, "I'm not gonna macro and I hope to win a victory in the least skilled way possible." Once you get up to higher leagues this is pwned easily and I am very disgruntled that it is recommended.

Malgent

10 Posts

May 21 2012 05:22 GMT

#446

On May 21 2012 06:27 Lord Gilgamesh wrote:
No offense but this thread basically screams, "I'm not gonna macro and I hope to win a victory in the least skilled way possible." Once you get up to higher leagues this is pwned easily and I am very disgruntled that it is recommended.

Tang uses this strategy and is in Masters currently and has been in Grandmaster three times, I think. Are there higher leagues I'm unaware of?

BigRedDog

461 Posts

May 21 2012 06:37 GMT

#447

First time posting.

A thread like this is more of different type of meta game you can play. Some people play macro and some play rush (of course, there are lots in between). Each have its pros and its cons.

I don't think a strategy is less skilled just because it is not macro oriented.

When I play, I like to have 2-3 builds in I can play. A macro and a timed play (or rush, or all in, whatever you like to call it). Of course, there's lots of variety in between.

For macro, you play to get the end game lead but you risk getting rush or lose in the early/mid game.
For all-in or rush, you sacrifice the end game and aim to win in early or mid.

There's no right or wrong. It is just your style. That's part of the game, there are risks you have to take for every strategy you make. Besides, it is good to have variety so it keeps your opponent guessing.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

May 21 2012 13:36 GMT

#448

On May 21 2012 06:03 patzernuk wrote:
hi tang,

what is the best response using this build to the 4 queen spine openings gaining popularity after the patch?

The way the build works out, you have a few options of when you can cut zergling production. I personally prefer cutting at about 42 supply because it allows me to be more aggressive and I always find a way to do something with speedlings. However, if you use the first inject only on lings, it puts you at about 30-31 supply, so you could always go right into drone production there. He'll have the 4 queens and a spine, and will likely produce a few extra sets of lings when he sees the lings streaming across the map - should give you a nice window to drone up while you poke.

RequiemAe

United States15 Posts

July 18 2012 21:14 GMT

#449

Unless you have Code S micro this build loses to banelings every single game. Going into a game you're pretty much praying that they don't go banelings or you can just GG right there.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

July 22 2012 19:11 GMT

#450

On July 19 2012 06:14 RequiemAe wrote:
Unless you have Code S micro this build loses to banelings every single game. Going into a game you're pretty much praying that they don't go banelings or you can just GG right there.

I disagree. Having the superior ling count means you can always engage in ling on ling battles. If you're losing to banelings, then you're either making a big micro mistake (losing all your lings to banelings) or dying to an all-in counter-attack (likely because you're building drones when you don't have enough lings on the field). Worst case scenario, you can spine up your expansion if you suspect he'll baneling bust you.

Ralethon

United States141 Posts

July 22 2012 19:37 GMT

#451

On July 23 2012 04:11 TangSC wrote:

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I think hes refering to defensive banelings couple with other defenses (roch transition/spines) for roaches. And i'd agree i dont think you can reliably do damage without far superior micro. Ling on ling battles shouldnt occur unless he is being agressive aswell. Would be very willing to test this.

Synk

United States297 Posts

July 22 2012 19:39 GMT

#452

Unless you have Code S micro this build loses to banelings every single game. Going into a game you're pretty much praying that they don't go banelings or you can just GG right there.

I have a 80% win rate(according to sc2 gears it's actually a little higher) in ZvZ since I started using this build actually(3 or 4 months ago, at 900-1000pt Masters). It's amazing how many zergs think that they just build 2-4 banelings and their opponent shouldn't ever even force the issue. With good micro ( my micro isn't code s for sure ) I usually break anyone who doesn't at least also have 1 or 2 spines as well as 4 banes +( sometimes I break them still if they are really sloppy ). All it takes is 4-6 lings onto the banes and your opponent failing to move command the banes in a half second and you insta win, ZvZ is really stupid like that unfortunately.

Lately I've even stopped droning behind the ling pressure because I checked my win-rate in ZvZ with sc2 gears and saw how ridiculously successful the early ling pressure was at just flat out ending games even with me droning behind it.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

July 22 2012 19:41 GMT

#453

On July 23 2012 04:37 Ralethon wrote:

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That's a fair point. However, if your opponent is playing that defensive, you at least have complete map control with the ability to poke/prod his expansion. This means you can safely drone up behind it, and since you aren't building banes/roaches early, you should secure an economic lead.

Synk

United States297 Posts

July 22 2012 19:53 GMT

#454

He won't have roaches out when the aggression first hits. If he does he cannot have any banelings, which means his natural is dead. If he try's to defend the natural just keep attacking the furthest side of the natural until he finally comes all they way down the ramp. When he does come down just have 12-16 lings in another control group ready to dart up the ramp ( have them between the natural and the ramp, just outside of range of the roaches ). It's literally not possible to defend the natural if you open roaches and if you open baneling/spine or baneling/slow ling your still going to have a hard time managing saving your natural and guarding the ramp, but I think the defender does have some advantage here. Most people just aren't actually used to controlling the engagements properly I guess, it still amazes me how often I kill people who have 4-6 banes and 2 or 3 spines, and I still kill them with 24 lings+ 12-20 more rallied in 30 sec later or so.

Zeweig

Sweden189 Posts

July 22 2012 21:58 GMT

#455

As I see it, you can generalize a playstyle to 2 things: Either you attack the enemy with a superior army/tech/upgrades and hope to hurt him or even beat him, or you defend versus said attack and hope to come out on top because of your advantage in economy/tech/upgrades.

Now, as terran or protoss, you can simply make workers until 80 non-stop, as it won't hurt you that much. Sure, some timings like 4 gate etc. will be delayed, but simply put, you don't lose much on making workers the entire game...

Now, as zerg, you have to choose to make either a worker or an attacking unit. This mechanic forces you to choose between economy and army, and this is the reason for the extreme "DRONES" or "UNITS".

If you make 5 drones (250 minerals), you will boost your economy a lot. If you make 3 drones and 2 roaches (150+150 minerals and 50 gas), you will end up with less economy and 2 useless roaches.

So a general rule of thumb is:

If you are going to attack or defend, make units!

If you can hold and is safe, make drones!

If you can squeeze in a drone here and there, you are fine, but when you want to attack someone, you mass units until the attack is over. Then you transition by making drones again.

To answer your second question: ZvZ is very defensive because: 1. it is really easy to scout! 2. as you are playing against your own race, the one with better economy should win. and 3. Spinecrawlers and queens can shut down so much aggression!

If you watch Mr. Bitters videos "12 weeks with the pros", and watch the episode with Sheth, you will see that Sheth uses the defenders advantage to be able to copy his opponents build (or at least match the attacking units), but because of the traveling time of the attackers, he can get an extra drone or two, and it adds up by the 15 min mark, and he will simply get a lot more army than you, since he now has better economy.

That's why defensive zerg that has perfect scouting and reactions will always win, because they get this slight economy advantage, and it's up to the aggressor to either hide this attack, or fake him out and get another base.

Hope you find this answer satisfactory!

//Zeweig

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

July 23 2012 14:21 GMT

#456

On July 23 2012 06:58 Zeweig wrote:

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To answer your second question: ZvZ is very defensive because: 1. it is really easy to scout! 2. as you are playing against your own race, the one with better economy should win. and 3. Spinecrawlers and queens can shut down so much aggression!

Some professional players play ZvZ very aggressively. When you go for an early timing, you know exactly when to produce units and when to cut production and go back into drones. Your opponent may overcommit to defenses and actually fall behind (or under-produce defences and lose outright).

Zeweig

Sweden189 Posts

July 24 2012 15:57 GMT

#457

On July 23 2012 23:21 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +

This is very true, and I'm not trying to take anything from you or your guide (both are awesome!). What I mean is that, when the defensive (reactive) scouts perfectly, he will come out on top, simply because he gains so many advantages. But if you catch your opponent with his pants down, you can straight out win or cripple him for serious amounts of time. Aggression is amazing when used properly, but if you expect it, it can easily be countered as well

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

July 24 2012 18:20 GMT

#458

On July 25 2012 00:57 Zeweig wrote:

Show nested quote +

I definitely agree, Defender's Advantage 101. Just want to point that there are some advantages to aggressive play as well

basss

United States5 Posts

July 26 2012 02:51 GMT

#459

Thanks

ForceEdge

Wales1 Post

August 03 2012 00:47 GMT

#460

Thanks alot for this guide TangSC, I have not lost a single ZvZ since I read this guide.

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 03 2012 17:29 GMT

#461

Moon just beat IdrA with this exact opening in game 3 of Asus ROG (Summer 2012)

RimJaynor

Canada145 Posts

August 04 2012 06:16 GMT

#462

I'm a masters zerg player and I use this build every single time. According to SC2 Gears I win 65% of my zerg games.
I'd like to add a few tips that are really help with this build.

1. Timings. Your opening needs to be bang on.
15 pool. 15 gas. 17 Hatch. 16 Queen. 18 Overlord. 100 gas speed. Etc.
Especially at the masters level this is so important.

2. In cross spawn maps (single spawns...Cloud, daybreak, etc.) After your queens 2nd inject...try to kill you're opponents overlord, If you can. If there is an overlord over my natural as my hatchery pops that overlord is basically dead...and due to timings that is a huge supply cap for my opponent, which is very critical bc my lings usually will reach the base before the overlord is dead.

3. If you can try to sneak your slow lings as close to your opponents base as possible. Scout around with you're initial 6 lings and make a path where your lings can go unseen, and rally your reinforcing lings to them. I've won so many games where my opponent has not even reacted because the lings were so close.

4. ROACH WARREN. Roach upgrades. Put your roach warren down at the appropriate time 630ish. And don't forget to make 4-8 drones if you feel you aren't going to win. That transition can win you the game even if you lose a lot of your lings to banelings.

Anyways, been using this build for 6 months (or however old this thread is) which is funny bc I haven't faced this build more than 5 times.

Thanks TangSC

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 04 2012 14:24 GMT

#463

On August 04 2012 15:16 RimJaynor wrote:
I'm a masters zerg player and I use this build every single time. According to SC2 Gears I win 65% of my zerg games.
I'd like to add a few tips that are really help with this build.

1. Timings. Your opening needs to be bang on.
15 pool. 15 gas. 17 Hatch. 16 Queen. 18 Overlord. 100 gas speed. Etc.
Especially at the masters level this is so important.

2. In cross spawn maps (single spawns...Cloud, daybreak, etc.) After your queens 2nd inject...try to kill you're opponents overlord, If you can. If there is an overlord over my natural as my hatchery pops that overlord is basically dead...and due to timings that is a huge supply cap for my opponent, which is very critical bc my lings usually will reach the base before the overlord is dead.

3. If you can try to sneak your slow lings as close to your opponents base as possible. Scout around with you're initial 6 lings and make a path where your lings can go unseen, and rally your reinforcing lings to them. I've won so many games where my opponent has not even reacted because the lings were so close.

4. ROACH WARREN. Roach upgrades. Put your roach warren down at the appropriate time 630ish. And don't forget to make 4-8 drones if you feel you aren't going to win. That transition can win you the game even if you lose a lot of your lings to banelings.

Anyways, been using this build for 6 months (or however old this thread is) which is funny bc I haven't faced this build more than 5 times.

Thanks TangSC

Those tips are very true. I used to kill SO many overlords with the first queen after she injects the main and moves to the expansion, then they changed overspeed so it's a bit easier to get away but it still happens. Good news: will be releasing a follow-up ZvZ guide today that goes into more detail on mid-game aggression - it will feature a similar opening to this one, as well as a more macro-oriented alternative!

syriuszonito

Poland332 Posts

August 04 2012 14:49 GMT

#464

Nice read. Its a very powerful timing because the standard 3min gas opener will not have banes in time do defend it but if somehow your opponent gets the blings in time / buys enough time with queens on ramp you will end up way behind on econ. Its definitely a good build to have in stock but I wouldnt suggest to use it all the time

TangSC

Canada1866 Posts

August 04 2012 20:15 GMT

#465

On August 04 2012 23:49 syriuszonito wrote:
Its a very powerful timing because the standard 3min gas opener will not have banes in time do defend it but if somehow your opponent gets the blings in time / buys enough time with queens on ramp you will end up way behind on econ.

I agree and yet disagree. Because you're skipping the minerals/gas needed to build a baneling nest and morph the banelings, often times you can be equal or above the economy of a player who opens queen wall off/baneling/zergling/spine. Most times, you do end up a bit behind if they defend well and don't overcommit.