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This guide is a modification and follow up to Tang's excellent guide found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=310142
DeltruS Ling-centric Zerg vs Zerg
+ Show Spoiler [About Me] + I am a 1k masters Z on the NA server who loves lings and loves making new builds.
+ Show Spoiler [Why would you want to go mass ling?] +- This style is FUN.
- This style opens up into a never before seen avenue of Z play. You will have infestors, you will have cracklings, you will have mass spines, you will have the ability to make infinity drones behind all that. This is like Stephano style ZvP except with early aggression instead of heavy droning.
- This style is super safe and has a really good economy. Aggression keeps the other Z honest, and most games turn out exactly the same way if you macro well.
+ Show Spoiler [Important reasons to use the Tang opener] +The only thing that counters this type of play is super mass roach baneling, or upgraded roach with a better economy. Early ling aggression means: - He can't get more drones than you. Your pressure is enough to make sure he doesn't go super early upgraded roaches. Usually you can be 100% sure the enemy has 36 drones and no huge roach force when you have 36 drones.
- He also cannot get faster upgrades than you unless he does ~3 spines and no units. He is either spending his gas on banes, or he is doing the same thing as you, or he dies.
Stage 1
We start with the basic Tang opener:
- 15 pool
- 15 gas
- 17 expo
- 16 queen
- 6 lings, only make lings until 30 supply
- 21 queen
- 23 overlord
- Rally 24th supply egg to make a spine at nat.
- Move out your lings for a timing attack/harass. (see the other guide linked at the top for ways to micro this and what to attack)
- Rally 3 drone eggs to gas
- 33/36 - overlord + make ~6 drones or more at your nat.
This 20 ling attack can do damage to any Z build that starts with 14/14 or hatch first. He might be making a few banes at this moment. If that is the case, a-move and select ~6 lings to attack queue all the morphing cocoons.
This attack can kill a Z going for fast roaches unless he spends extra money on 2 spines or a bunch of lings.
I've been doing this first part of the build for a long time, and there are very few, if any builds that come out very ahead after this. The goal of this attack is to make sure he doesn't get a large amount of early roaches or a ton of drones.
Stage 2 - RW when those gas drones hatch. If you can get many drones in here, you need those drones because it means your opponent is making drones.
- 5 roaches for defence and a later timing attack.
- Second extractor when RW finishes.
- Double evo at 100 gas, drone to 15 on each base's minerals for a total of 38 drones.
- Macro hatch then queen when saturated.
- 9 more roaches + Do a timing attack if he doesn't have many spines or you think he will die. Try to keep all 14 roaches unless you think you will kill him. This attack should hit at around 11:00. If you don't do the timing attack, take a 3rd and then just build lings when you are being attacked.
- Lair + Gas (3) right after the 9 roaches and make no more roaches.
- Lair complete - Gas(4) and 2/2 right away then burrow (for sexy harass and expo blocking) and then infestation pit.
+ Show Spoiler [Math Behind the Timings] +http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Resources#Vespene_Gas120 gas per minute per geyser. 2 gas per second per gyser. 4 gas per second for 2 gysers. Evo chamber takes 35s. Lair takes 80s. 1/1 takes 160s. - We need 250 gas off 2 gysers for 1/1. Evo chambers take 35 s to make. 35s*4gas/sec = 140 gas that is made during the evo morph. So make your evos around 100-110 gas.
- After the 2 upgrades start, we will need 100 gas in 80 seconds. So, (80s)(4Gas/s) - 100 gas = 220 gas for roaches. So, we can make 225gas/25 gas per roach = 9 more roaches for a total of 15.
After making a lair, we will need 375 gas for 2/2. We can only get 320, so we need to add a 3rd gas as we get the lair.
Stage 3 - Opponent Takes a 3rd
This is when you start to get vulnerable to huge roach balls. To combat this, we make 5 or so spines after we start our 2/2.
You take your 3rd when your opponent takes his. Get a bunch of spines before he gets +2 roaches because those always 2 shot lings.
Note: Due to the nature of ZvZ, it is really rare to get to the lategame. Usually, one player with an advantage can deny the other's 3rd and end the game like that.
Get your hive around when your infestation pit finishes and switch to infestors when your 6 gas gets up.
The goal and inspiration of stage 3 is the Stephano style of ZvP. He gets a billion spines and drones, and still is ahead in economy. The enemy can't attack him and he is safe for the rest of the mid game.
Things to note: - In stage 2, you can scout if he is going mutas by sneaking lings into his main. If he does go mutas, you could very likely kill him with your timing attack, but if he doesn't die, you should make 2 sets of queens with your hatches for a total of 7, and replace those spines with spores. Just drone up and transition to infestors like usual.
- If your opponent has a lot of spines, you can very often kill him by getting a bane nest before the push and skipping lair and 2/2. You can get over 15 banes and just kill all the spines. This is all in vs mutas, but still, he used a ton of money on spines and shouldn't have a lot of units.
Stage 4 - End Game
You should get ultras/cracklings before your opponent gets 3/3. If this is the case, be aggressive as possible. Fungal + Ultras STOMPS infestor roach and, if you get your cracklings in there without them dying to fungal, it is GG.
You can limit your opponent to a 3 base economy with ling run-bys, burrowed lings, burrowed infestors, or speed banes if you choose to get them.
+ Show Spoiler [Overlord Scouting Paths] +Overlord 1: Outside enemy natural
Overlord 2: Enemy 3rd
Overlord 3: Around your base where banes usually morph.
Overlord 4-5: Flanking paths
Overlord 6: Your 3rd.
+ Show Spoiler [Replays] +
+ Show Spoiler [Changelog] +- Reduced the amount of roaches to 5.
- Moved the second gas timing back. We need mins for drones too much at this point. Make it after the RW completes.
- The 26 ling attack is now a 20 ling attack. Only make 30 supply then move out. This way it is timed to use only the larva from the first inject.
The last 6 lings can only be half way across the map when the 20 lings hit anyways, so now we have 3 more drones at our nat.
- At 30 supply, rally the 3 drones to the extractor instead of nat.
- Only make a bunch of spines if the opponent has a bunch of infestors or +2 roaches (since those always 2 hit lings).
- Also added note about why lategame ZvZ is rare.
- More replays.
- I've actually been experimenting with not doing the 1/1 timing attack and getting a fast 3rd instead. It has worked really well and is super effective against mutas if you build queens out of your 4 hatches and go infestors. He wont even have upgrades while you will have 2/2.
- Don't upgrade +2 carapace. Roaches 2 shot lings no matter what once they get +2 attack so the extra carapace does nothing.
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I quite like this idea. I dislike roaches in general and I love playing with speedlings. I'll need to work on my speedling micro but I'd definitely want to give this a go. As you mentioned, mass roach/bane styles could be problematic, but I think at my level some clever backstabbing and delaying tactics could work.
Also, I really like how you've thought out this build. It already seems somewhat refined and I especially like how you've worked out the timings. The double evo at 100 gas is one of my favourites.
Thanks for posting!
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Really good work. Extremely useful regarding the (a little less now) chaotic early ZvZ game. I'm going to try it. Thank you.
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On April 02 2012 08:10 SeinGalton wrote:
I quite like this idea. I dislike roaches in general and I love playing with speedlings. I'll need to work on my speedling micro but I'd definitely want to give this a go. As you mentioned, mass roach/bane styles could be problematic, but I think at my level some clever backstabbing and delaying tactics could work.
Also, I really like how you've thought out this build. It already seems somewhat refined and I especially like how you've worked out the timings. The double evo at 100 gas is one of my favourites.
Thanks for posting!
The 6 roaches into double evo part of the build is wonderful for ZvT too. Just rally drones to gas at 33 supply and make a RW/Gas when those hatch. You drone to 44 without making many attacking units, put down a macro hatch, get double upgrades, and then go for a super economic roach ling early game.
If the Terran 2 raxed me, and I am recovering, I just skip the roaches since he wont have hellions.
If you have 1 gyser, you can put down an evo at 25 gas and get 100 gas when it finishes.
On April 02 2012 08:23 C23 wrote:
Really good work. Extremely useful regarding the (a little less now) chaotic early ZvZ game. I'm going to try it. Thank you.
Yes, this style is very safe. We attack when it is least chaotic, and defend when it is most chaotic.
I usually win against 13 pool because I have more lings than him, queen block, and a spine. Just focus down banes when they are morphing, then focus down the surviving ones with queens. Against a later baneling attack, we just counter into his base and queen block the ramp.
I am unsure about beating 10 pool, but I think it is quite possible. With the right response, it might be easy.
Other than those two timings, we are safe for the entire early game.
I'm very happy you both enjoyed it.
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This is a really interesting transition!
I play out ZvZ mid/late game very differently, usually opting for upgraded roaches and infestors and occasionally mutalisks. I almost never go for melee upgrades with zerglings, it's just a style I've never felt was stable because of those nasty roach timings. However, with the amount of spines you make, I can see this working!
What I like most is the late game transition into Ultralisk/Crackling/Infestor, because (surprise surprise) my ZvZ games don't often make it to the Hive stage so this could be a good way for me to add variety to my late-game. Thanks a lot for the work you put into this, I'll be sure to experiment with this style!
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I've been using a lot of mid game ling infestor into ultra in zvz for ages, and I've got like 70% winrate, I just don't use such an aggressive opener :D
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Great build, thanks for the post! I like the Tang opener but was never comfortable with the roach transition, this is a really fun style.
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On April 02 2012 06:40 DeltruS wrote:Early ling aggression means: He can't get more drones than you. Your pressure is enough to make sure he doesn't go super early upgraded roaches. Usually you can be 100% sure the enemy has 36 drones and no huge roach force when you have 36 drones.
- He also cannot get faster upgrades than you unless he does ~3 spines and no units. He is either spending his gas on banes, or he is doing the same thing as you, or he dies.
I really don't understand why you say that; if you are making 13 larvae worth of lings, your opponent can easily tech banelings and have 5 drones more than you while being safe from the ling attack.
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On April 02 2012 13:40 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 06:40 DeltruS wrote:Early ling aggression means: He can't get more drones than you. Your pressure is enough to make sure he doesn't go super early upgraded roaches. Usually you can be 100% sure the enemy has 36 drones and no huge roach force when you have 36 drones.
- He also cannot get faster upgrades than you unless he does ~3 spines and no units. He is either spending his gas on banes, or he is doing the same thing as you, or he dies.
I really don't understand why you say that; if you are making 13 larvae worth of lings, your opponent can easily tech banelings and have 5 drones more than you while being safe from the ling attack.
Those banes will be morphing when your 22 lings hit (assuming he expanded), allowing you a small window to equalize on drones by killing any of his drones at his nat.
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On April 02 2012 13:40 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 06:40 DeltruS wrote:Early ling aggression means: He can't get more drones than you. Your pressure is enough to make sure he doesn't go super early upgraded roaches. Usually you can be 100% sure the enemy has 36 drones and no huge roach force when you have 36 drones.
- He also cannot get faster upgrades than you unless he does ~3 spines and no units. He is either spending his gas on banes, or he is doing the same thing as you, or he dies.
I really don't understand why you say that; if you are making 13 larvae worth of lings, your opponent can easily tech banelings and have 5 drones more than you while being safe from the ling attack.
So, he techs to banes. He spends 200/100 on 4 banes and 100/50 + a drone for the bane nest. He also has to get 1 spine or I will easily be able to out micro him. Just for the banes it 450 resources not spent on drones. Not only this, but I usually can still put pressure on him because if he rushes to banes like that off of a hatch first, he wont have many if any zerglings.
26 lings with good micro can beat 4 banes and 4 lings very easily. If he makes fast banes and lings, you will be even without attacking him.
He CAN get more drones than you at points, since you make the roaches, but you are so safe that you can drone up to 38 ish without worrying about anything. He, on the other hand, isn't so sure. If he does drone that much, you will catch up to him very fast.
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Amazing mid-game guide! However, why +1 Melee over +1 range?
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On April 02 2012 14:20 warblob004 wrote:
Amazing mid-game guide! However, why +1 Melee over +1 range?
The goal of the style is for a melee based army. If you want, you can instead get +1 range and transition to roach, but the macro hatch you made just for the timing would be useless. The macro hatch is is great for the timing because a wave ~30 lings can reach his base at the same time the roaches arrive. If you reinforced with roaches, those roaches would only be a quarter of the way across the map.
If you don't include the macro hatch or the +1 melee, you are basically doing Tang's guide but with upgrades.
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On April 02 2012 14:06 DeltruS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 13:40 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 06:40 DeltruS wrote:Early ling aggression means: He can't get more drones than you. Your pressure is enough to make sure he doesn't go super early upgraded roaches. Usually you can be 100% sure the enemy has 36 drones and no huge roach force when you have 36 drones.
- He also cannot get faster upgrades than you unless he does ~3 spines and no units. He is either spending his gas on banes, or he is doing the same thing as you, or he dies.
I really don't understand why you say that; if you are making 13 larvae worth of lings, your opponent can easily tech banelings and have 5 drones more than you while being safe from the ling attack. So, he techs to banes. He spends 200/100 on 4 banes and 100/50 + a drone for the bane nest. He also has to get 1 spine or I will easily be able to out micro him. Just for the banes it 450 resources not spent on drones. Not only this, but I usually can still put pressure on him because if he rushes to banes like that off of a hatch first, he wont have many if any zerglings. 26 lings with good micro can beat 4 banes and 4 lings very easily. If he makes fast banes and lings, you will be even without attacking him. He CAN get more drones than you at points, since you make the roaches, but you are so safe that you can drone up to 38 ish without worrying about anything. He, on the other hand, isn't so sure. If he does drone that much, you will catch up to him very fast.
Saying if your opponent goes banes means you will just out micro them seems pretty variable rather than something that is actually solid.
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On April 02 2012 14:23 DeltruS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:20 warblob004 wrote:
Amazing mid-game guide! However, why +1 Melee over +1 range? The goal of the style is for a melee based army. If you want, you can instead get +1 range and transition to roach, but the macro hatch you made just for the timing would be useless. The macro hatch is is great for the timing because a wave ~30 lings can reach his base at the same time the roaches arrive. If you reinforced with roaches, those roaches would only be a quarter of the way across the map. If you don't include the macro hatch or the +1 melee, you are basically doing Tang's guide but with upgrades.
Ah, I see. So mainly for the +3/+3 lategame ultra/ling.
Thanks again for writing up the guide! 
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On April 02 2012 14:31 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:06 DeltruS wrote:On April 02 2012 13:40 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 06:40 DeltruS wrote:Early ling aggression means: He can't get more drones than you. Your pressure is enough to make sure he doesn't go super early upgraded roaches. Usually you can be 100% sure the enemy has 36 drones and no huge roach force when you have 36 drones.
- He also cannot get faster upgrades than you unless he does ~3 spines and no units. He is either spending his gas on banes, or he is doing the same thing as you, or he dies.
I really don't understand why you say that; if you are making 13 larvae worth of lings, your opponent can easily tech banelings and have 5 drones more than you while being safe from the ling attack. So, he techs to banes. He spends 200/100 on 4 banes and 100/50 + a drone for the bane nest. He also has to get 1 spine or I will easily be able to out micro him. Just for the banes it 450 resources not spent on drones. Not only this, but I usually can still put pressure on him because if he rushes to banes like that off of a hatch first, he wont have many if any zerglings. 26 lings with good micro can beat 4 banes and 4 lings very easily. If he makes fast banes and lings, you will be even without attacking him. He CAN get more drones than you at points, since you make the roaches, but you are so safe that you can drone up to 38 ish without worrying about anything. He, on the other hand, isn't so sure. If he does drone that much, you will catch up to him very fast. Saying if your opponent goes banes means you will just out micro them seems pretty variable rather than something that is actually solid.
I haven't played anyone who has such amazing micro that they can deflect all my lings so easily. Even if you take 3 lings and target fire each bane, you will still force him to make units and not drones.
I'm not going to argue that this will work every time, because it is ZvZ and ZvZ has a billion variables. Every build has the same type of weakness like "What if he goes x and has amazingly better micro than you?".
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On April 02 2012 14:39 DeltruS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:31 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 14:06 DeltruS wrote:On April 02 2012 13:40 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 06:40 DeltruS wrote:Early ling aggression means: He can't get more drones than you. Your pressure is enough to make sure he doesn't go super early upgraded roaches. Usually you can be 100% sure the enemy has 36 drones and no huge roach force when you have 36 drones.
- He also cannot get faster upgrades than you unless he does ~3 spines and no units. He is either spending his gas on banes, or he is doing the same thing as you, or he dies.
I really don't understand why you say that; if you are making 13 larvae worth of lings, your opponent can easily tech banelings and have 5 drones more than you while being safe from the ling attack. So, he techs to banes. He spends 200/100 on 4 banes and 100/50 + a drone for the bane nest. He also has to get 1 spine or I will easily be able to out micro him. Just for the banes it 450 resources not spent on drones. Not only this, but I usually can still put pressure on him because if he rushes to banes like that off of a hatch first, he wont have many if any zerglings. 26 lings with good micro can beat 4 banes and 4 lings very easily. If he makes fast banes and lings, you will be even without attacking him. He CAN get more drones than you at points, since you make the roaches, but you are so safe that you can drone up to 38 ish without worrying about anything. He, on the other hand, isn't so sure. If he does drone that much, you will catch up to him very fast. Saying if your opponent goes banes means you will just out micro them seems pretty variable rather than something that is actually solid. I haven't played anyone who has such amazing micro that they can deflect all my lings so easily. Even if you take 3 lings and target fire each bane, you will still force him to make units and not drones. I'm not going to argue that this will work every time, because it is ZvZ and ZvZ has a billion variables. Every build has the same type of weakness like "What if he goes x and has amazingly better micro than you?".
But at the same time, if he has baneling tech already and you force him to make units, don't you just die to a ling bane counter attack after your ling attack is possible deflected.
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On April 02 2012 14:45 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:39 DeltruS wrote:On April 02 2012 14:31 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 14:06 DeltruS wrote:On April 02 2012 13:40 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 06:40 DeltruS wrote:Early ling aggression means: He can't get more drones than you. Your pressure is enough to make sure he doesn't go super early upgraded roaches. Usually you can be 100% sure the enemy has 36 drones and no huge roach force when you have 36 drones.
- He also cannot get faster upgrades than you unless he does ~3 spines and no units. He is either spending his gas on banes, or he is doing the same thing as you, or he dies.
I really don't understand why you say that; if you are making 13 larvae worth of lings, your opponent can easily tech banelings and have 5 drones more than you while being safe from the ling attack. So, he techs to banes. He spends 200/100 on 4 banes and 100/50 + a drone for the bane nest. He also has to get 1 spine or I will easily be able to out micro him. Just for the banes it 450 resources not spent on drones. Not only this, but I usually can still put pressure on him because if he rushes to banes like that off of a hatch first, he wont have many if any zerglings. 26 lings with good micro can beat 4 banes and 4 lings very easily. If he makes fast banes and lings, you will be even without attacking him. He CAN get more drones than you at points, since you make the roaches, but you are so safe that you can drone up to 38 ish without worrying about anything. He, on the other hand, isn't so sure. If he does drone that much, you will catch up to him very fast. Saying if your opponent goes banes means you will just out micro them seems pretty variable rather than something that is actually solid. I haven't played anyone who has such amazing micro that they can deflect all my lings so easily. Even if you take 3 lings and target fire each bane, you will still force him to make units and not drones. I'm not going to argue that this will work every time, because it is ZvZ and ZvZ has a billion variables. Every build has the same type of weakness like "What if he goes x and has amazingly better micro than you?". But at the same time, if he has baneling tech already and you force him to make units, don't you just die to a ling bane counter attack after your ling attack is possible deflected.
I have 2 queens if I have to retreat drones and 6 roaches on the way. From there I am safe to drone for a few minutes, while he is unsure of how many roaches I have. He also would have committed a ton of money to lings while I droned behind the attack.
Please no more theorycrafting. If you do the build perfectly and micro perfectly and still lose to something, you can post the replay and we can discuss the ramifications. If there are any.
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On April 02 2012 14:48 DeltruS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:45 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 14:39 DeltruS wrote:On April 02 2012 14:31 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 14:06 DeltruS wrote:On April 02 2012 13:40 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 06:40 DeltruS wrote:Early ling aggression means: He can't get more drones than you. Your pressure is enough to make sure he doesn't go super early upgraded roaches. Usually you can be 100% sure the enemy has 36 drones and no huge roach force when you have 36 drones.
- He also cannot get faster upgrades than you unless he does ~3 spines and no units. He is either spending his gas on banes, or he is doing the same thing as you, or he dies.
I really don't understand why you say that; if you are making 13 larvae worth of lings, your opponent can easily tech banelings and have 5 drones more than you while being safe from the ling attack. So, he techs to banes. He spends 200/100 on 4 banes and 100/50 + a drone for the bane nest. He also has to get 1 spine or I will easily be able to out micro him. Just for the banes it 450 resources not spent on drones. Not only this, but I usually can still put pressure on him because if he rushes to banes like that off of a hatch first, he wont have many if any zerglings. 26 lings with good micro can beat 4 banes and 4 lings very easily. If he makes fast banes and lings, you will be even without attacking him. He CAN get more drones than you at points, since you make the roaches, but you are so safe that you can drone up to 38 ish without worrying about anything. He, on the other hand, isn't so sure. If he does drone that much, you will catch up to him very fast. Saying if your opponent goes banes means you will just out micro them seems pretty variable rather than something that is actually solid. I haven't played anyone who has such amazing micro that they can deflect all my lings so easily. Even if you take 3 lings and target fire each bane, you will still force him to make units and not drones. I'm not going to argue that this will work every time, because it is ZvZ and ZvZ has a billion variables. Every build has the same type of weakness like "What if he goes x and has amazingly better micro than you?". But at the same time, if he has baneling tech already and you force him to make units, don't you just die to a ling bane counter attack after your ling attack is possible deflected. I have 2 queens if I have to retreat drones and 6 roaches on the way. From there I am safe to drone for a few minutes, while he is unsure of how many roaches I have. He also would have committed a ton of money to lings while I droned behind the attack. Please no more theorycrafting. If you do the build perfectly and micro perfectly and still lose to something, you can post the replay and we can discuss the ramifications. If there are any.
The replay vs northern - @ 6:20 -you do your attack, and he goes quick banes and is 6 drones ahead after your attack is finished of. Your roach warren is 12 seconds done meaning there is 70 seconds before any roaches come out. If he were to attack you that is a huge window of vulnerability as you can't effectively engage ling bane with only ling, not that he has to since he is already 6 drones ahead.
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On April 02 2012 15:06 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:48 DeltruS wrote:
I have 2 queens if I have to retreat drones and 6 roaches on the way. From there I am safe to drone for a few minutes, while he is unsure of how many roaches I have. He also would have committed a ton of money to lings while I droned behind the attack.
Please no more theorycrafting. If you do the build perfectly and micro perfectly and still lose to something, you can post the replay and we can discuss the ramifications. If there are any. The replay vs northern - @ 6:20 -you do your attack, and he goes quick banes and is 6 drones ahead after your attack is finished of. Your roach warren is 12 seconds done meaning there is 70 seconds before any roaches come out. If he were to attack you that is a huge window of vulnerability as you can't effectively engage ling bane with only ling, not that he has to since he is already 6 drones ahead.
Yes, I micro horribly and blow up like 12 lings on one baneling. Already this replay doesn't apply. I even macro'd terribly. Even so, I caught up to him in drones very quickly, and the game didn't just end.
If you want to complain about early ling attacks, go do it in Tang's thread, which this is based off of. It has a blind 44 ling attack with many replays against top NA players such as Sheth.
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On April 02 2012 15:18 DeltruS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 15:06 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 14:48 DeltruS wrote:On April 02 2012 14:45 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 14:39 DeltruS wrote:On April 02 2012 14:31 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 14:06 DeltruS wrote:On April 02 2012 13:40 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 06:40 DeltruS wrote:Early ling aggression means: He can't get more drones than you. Your pressure is enough to make sure he doesn't go super early upgraded roaches. Usually you can be 100% sure the enemy has 36 drones and no huge roach force when you have 36 drones.
- He also cannot get faster upgrades than you unless he does ~3 spines and no units. He is either spending his gas on banes, or he is doing the same thing as you, or he dies.
I really don't understand why you say that; if you are making 13 larvae worth of lings, your opponent can easily tech banelings and have 5 drones more than you while being safe from the ling attack. So, he techs to banes. He spends 200/100 on 4 banes and 100/50 + a drone for the bane nest. He also has to get 1 spine or I will easily be able to out micro him. Just for the banes it 450 resources not spent on drones. Not only this, but I usually can still put pressure on him because if he rushes to banes like that off of a hatch first, he wont have many if any zerglings. 26 lings with good micro can beat 4 banes and 4 lings very easily. If he makes fast banes and lings, you will be even without attacking him. He CAN get more drones than you at points, since you make the roaches, but you are so safe that you can drone up to 38 ish without worrying about anything. He, on the other hand, isn't so sure. If he does drone that much, you will catch up to him very fast. Saying if your opponent goes banes means you will just out micro them seems pretty variable rather than something that is actually solid. I haven't played anyone who has such amazing micro that they can deflect all my lings so easily. Even if you take 3 lings and target fire each bane, you will still force him to make units and not drones. I'm not going to argue that this will work every time, because it is ZvZ and ZvZ has a billion variables. Every build has the same type of weakness like "What if he goes x and has amazingly better micro than you?". But at the same time, if he has baneling tech already and you force him to make units, don't you just die to a ling bane counter attack after your ling attack is possible deflected. I have 2 queens if I have to retreat drones and 6 roaches on the way. From there I am safe to drone for a few minutes, while he is unsure of how many roaches I have. He also would have committed a ton of money to lings while I droned behind the attack. Please no more theorycrafting. If you do the build perfectly and micro perfectly and still lose to something, you can post the replay and we can discuss the ramifications. If there are any. The replay vs northern - @ 6:20 -you do your attack, and he goes quick banes and is 6 drones ahead after your attack is finished of. Your roach warren is 12 seconds done meaning there is 70 seconds before any roaches come out. If he were to attack you that is a huge window of vulnerability as you can't effectively engage ling bane with only ling, not that he has to since he is already 6 drones ahead. Yes, I micro horribly and blow up like 12 lings on one baneling. Already this replay doesn't apply. I even macro'd terribly. I caught up to him in drones very easily, and the game didn't just end. My last statement still stands. If you want to complain about early ling attacks, go do it in Tang's thread, which this is based off of. It has a blind 44 ling attack with many replays.
Ya you could have micro'ed better where you didn't lose all of your lings but there was no way that you were going to do significant damage vs a queen block + spine + 5 or so banes and lings incoming. Either way you keep the lings alive or not, in that instance your opponent was ahead on drones and no way for you to do dmg w/o him making a big mistake.
I'm not trying to necessarily call your build bad, i just want to point out that mass ling is a coinflip whether it works a high percentage of the time or not. That replay was a specific instance where your opponent had a good opening and there was no way for you to do significant damage.
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EPT
