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i postet the same on tangs thread because you used his opening style, but i got no answer... perhaps you can help... and btw its a good and fun way to play but i have a problem with that-->
i see no possible way to hold a 14/14 ling/bling allin with this opener, i tried 3 times. But i really want to :D
at one moment:
- i got 6 lings one queen and a building spine
- opponent has 10 lings and earlier ling speed
and its a small and neat window where he can crush you, before additional lings come out.
replay --> http://drop.sc/154469
i saw that you say to build a additional spine in the main, but i dont see where this helps... perhaps an earlier spine pre building in the main or something like that?
Cheers and thx
Michael
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You need 2 queens to block the ramp. You will have more lings than him because you have 2 hatches while he has 1. If you have more lings than him, which you should, you can prevent him from morphing banes.
If you both have speed, try to keep the battle as far away from your base as possible. It can take around 50s for banes to walk across a map on many maps.
I also bind my drones at my natural to "3" so that I can quickly move them past my queens and then move them back after.
Look at the "Holding Early Cheese/Pressure" header in tang's guide here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=310142
"episode 4" apparently has a video focusing on holding baneling rushes.
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You forget an OL in your buildorder (the one after the initial queen). Also your replays doesn't stick to the build all the times.
Still, a very good guide, keep working on it.
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Well your answer tells me, that you didtn watch the replay i posted...
if you simply make a 14/14 and stream lings into the other base, you win against this build. In my case, my friend wanted to bling allin but, there was no need to, ling only are enough.
i watched the tang guides about earlie cheese, but there is no one where the other simply streams lings in.
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On April 09 2012 01:45 enykie wrote:
Well your answer tells me, that you didtn watch the replay i posted...
if you simply make a 14/14 and stream lings into the other base, you win against this build. In my case, my friend wanted to bling allin but, there was no need to, ling only are enough.
i watched the tang guides about earlie cheese, but there is no one where the other simply streams lings in.
Ok, I watched the replay. You just needed to block the ramp half with queens and lings so that only 2 lings can engage at once. A queen has more DPS than a ling, so you would be fighting 3 to 2.
Your spine should be a bit further back too for a better simcity. Then, if he goes after the spine, attack his lings, and if he attacks your lings, move back behind the queen on the ramp. You had more drones than him and more production facilities, so just delaying would allow you to hold and stomp him with a counter.
EDIT: Just realized that roaches 2 shot lings no matter what once they get +2 attack so the +2 carapace does nothing. So don't get it. This actually is quite nice because it means infestation put on lair complete.
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Thx alot DeltruS! 
Another Question, if i play like your style, i often have a situation, where i have lots of minerals and larave and not shure if i build drones or lings. Like when he camps in his base and i build lots of lings it is kinda obious that he needs banes.
So do you build lots of lings and try to to damage or do you build them and show them for mapcontrol?
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Great guide!
Not sure if this is in the OP or not, I didn't see it.
But, +1 Lings absolutely rape Roaches, so it's probably good to put that in the guide for people skeptical. Maybe with some math behind it.
Good job, will use!
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On April 09 2012 05:05 DeltruS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 01:45 enykie wrote:
Well your answer tells me, that you didtn watch the replay i posted...
if you simply make a 14/14 and stream lings into the other base, you win against this build. In my case, my friend wanted to bling allin but, there was no need to, ling only are enough.
i watched the tang guides about earlie cheese, but there is no one where the other simply streams lings in. Ok, I watched the replay. You just needed to block the ramp half with queens and lings so that only 2 lings can engage at once. A queen has more DPS than a ling, so you would be fighting 3 to 2. Your spine should be a bit further back too for a better simcity. Then, if he goes after the spine, attack his lings, and if he attacks your lings, move back behind the queen on the ramp. You had more drones than him and more production facilities, so just delaying would allow you to hold and stomp him with a counter. EDIT: Just realized that roaches 2 shot lings no matter what once they get +2 attack so the +2 carapace does nothing. So don't get it. This actually is quite nice because it means infestation put on lair complete.
Not getting the +2 armor are you going only 1 evo? Also do you have any newer replays of the mid game securing the 3rd?
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So what would you do against someone just making a fuck ton of roaches on 2 bases and keeping you contained? I don't see this working against any player with decent roach macro.
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On April 17 2012 05:14 Odal wrote:
So what would you do against someone just making a fuck ton of roaches on 2 bases and keeping you contained? I don't see this working against any player with decent roach macro.
I was wondering this myself.
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On April 17 2012 05:14 Odal wrote:
So what would you do against someone just making a fuck ton of roaches on 2 bases and keeping you contained? I don't see this working against any player with decent roach macro.
I imagine you never let him arrive at your natural until you get your spines up.
Before that you just kill the roaches in the middle of the map, at open ground.
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I play random and recently I've been sticking with zerg because I realised I'm losing a lot of games to cheesy timings and wanted to improve. This build seemed great as a random player but now I'm starting to have a harder time with holding off various all ins.
Master level zergs who have a macro style are easy for me to beat with this build, but I actually lose more to diamond players with this build because they tend to overproduce units early on or ling/bane all in.
How do you play against a player who hatches first and then makes a swell of lings. He will have more lings to hold your timing attack but you will have more drones. If he couters when his speed is finished you simply get overrun.
Also I have a very hard time holding 10 pools and anything shorter than that can be an auto lose if the overlords aren't perfect. (but i guess thats just zvz?)
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First 3 games of the day were ZvZ. I won all 3 using this (the opening at least), including beating an early bling all-in off 1 base and 15h early bling.
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On April 26 2012 06:43 usNEUX wrote:
First 3 games of the day were ZvZ. I won all 3 using this (the opening at least), including beating an early bling all-in off 1 base and 15h early bling.
Glad to hear others are having success with the opening too :D Keep it up!
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If I cant do damage with the first 2 attacks, I fall into a spot where I can get a 3rd due to not having enough spines and cant attack his roachforce and slowly lose the game from there. How should I transition out of a situation where he gets a big roachball and keeps denying my 3rd?
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I do the same, but I make 4 lings and 1 drone and put in the gas, with the idea I can get a baneling nest later if i need to play defensive against there lings or faster lair for faster mutas or even faster +1 etc
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And what happens if he roach drops / nydus you?
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Hi I posted a commentary I think something like few months ago saying I would definately test it.
So here I am now reporting:
Tang opener is quite a thing, helped me a lot killing zergs who rushed roaches(even mutas) and a ton of other that just didnt know what to do after 14/14. However if the other player went for super aggressive ling bane early push i often found myself in my base with a shitload of lings morphing while my opponent is making banes out of my base. Well it sure can be handled but the bane advantage opens for the possibility of a 1base all in speedlings + banes.
I may also point the case of a good defence setting from the opponent(defensive baneling, wall ,spine, blocking rampe with queens, earning time for him to get enough lings to push you back not letting you kill his expo), in that very case you find yourself behind in eco. How much? Statisticly from my replays depending on how much lings I did and how much units i forced. But 95% of the time you are behind at this stage letting you vulnerable for a big counter baneling allin.
Well the more I practised the build the more I made adaptations that would be nice to be cheked and discussed.
-My first overlord sees an expo same time/earlier than mine.
->Good spot get the drones from the gas and lets roll. Make an early 4th ovi, id say after the first2 sets to be able to pump full lings.
-No expo
->I keep 3 drones on the gas till 50 start my BN and let 2 drones on gas
-late expo
-> I do the same as no expo but I make 4 drones to have my gas saturated + B1 saturated because he is going for earlier aggression than me. To time well my attack I even make an earlier 4th ovi to go for a big counter to try to KILL his natural.
I usually drone meanwhile but if my all push gets obliterated by 2 banelings(worst case ever), i am almost done for.
-I did damage to the drones
->Nice but, because you are behind in drone count you may just be even depending on how much damage you did which relies a lot on how bad your opponnent reacts.Anyway how good you could be you cant walk a ramp bloked by two queens with10-20 lings while your opponnent is making a lot of lings himself. In a nutshell if your opponnent is sloppy you shall win with a very high ratio of rage-quiters(which makes this opening very tasty btw).
-I didn't do damage
-> Well I'm just platinium player so I can trust that my opponnent may suck at doing something, including droning and making overlords (as I do). If you defend well againt any baneling ling attack, for you both the +1+1speed Roach attack is the best option, so the number of roach and placement will determine who takes a third and who does not. Hi I posted a commentary I think something like few months ago saying I would definately test it.
So here I am now reporting:
Tang opener is quite a thing, helped me a lot killing zergs who rushed roaches(even mutas) and a ton of other that just didnt know what to do after 14/14. However if the other player went for super aggressive ling bane early push i often found myself in my base with a shitload of lings morphing while my opponent is making banes out of my base. Well it sure can be handled but the bane advantage opens for the possibility of a 1base all in speedlings + banes.
I may also point the case of a good defence setting from the opponent(defensive baneling, wall ,spine, blocking rampe with queens, earning time for him to get enough lings to push you back not letting you kill his expo), in that very case you find yourself behind in eco. How much? Statisticly from my replays depending on how much lings I did and how much units i forced. But 95% of the time you are behind at this stage letting you vulnerable for a big counter baneling allin.
Well the more I practised the build the more I made adaptations that would be nice to be cheked and discussed.
-My first overlord sees an expo same time/earlier than mine.
->Good spot get the drones from the gas and lets roll. Make an early 4th ovi, id say after the first2 sets to be able to pump full lings.
-No expo
->I keep 3 drones on the gas till 50 start my BN and let 2 drones on gas
-late expo
-> I do the same as no expo but I make 4 drones to have my gas saturated + B1 saturated because he is going for earlier aggression than me. To time well my attack I even make an earlier 4th ovi to go for a big counter to try to KILL his natural.
I usually drone meanwhile but if my all push gets obliterated by 2 banelings(worst case ever), i am almost done for.
-I did damage to the drones
->Nice but, because you are behind in drone count you may just be even depending on how much damage you did which relies a lot on how bad your opponnent reacts.Anyway how good you could be you cant walk a ramp bloked by two queens with10-20 lings while your opponnent is making a lot of lings himself. In a nutshell if your opponnent is sloppy you shall win with a very high ratio of rage-quiters(which makes this opening very tasty btw).
-I didn't do damage
-> Well I'm just platinium player so I can trust that my opponnent may suck at doing something, including droning and making overlords (as I do). If you defend well againt any baneling ling attack, for you both the +1+1speed Roach attack is the best option, so the number of roach and placement will determine who takes a third and who does not.
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EPT
