[G] [ZvZ] DeltruS Ling-centric Zerg vs Zerg - Page 2

Honcepoi

Germany29 Posts

April 02 2012 07:23 GMT

#21

sorry but what do you do against a roach/ baneling attack from 2 bases? Seems to me like impossible to defend with pure ling.

RobiTL

France55 Posts

April 02 2012 08:14 GMT

#22

What does « RW and gas(2) when those gas(1) drones hatch. » mean ?

kaliax

United States48 Posts

April 02 2012 08:35 GMT

#23

On April 02 2012 17:14 RobiTL wrote:
What does « RW and gas(2) when those gas(1) drones hatch. » mean ?

At 33 supply you make three drones and rally them (the eggs) back into your 1st gas: when they hatch, you start morphing a 2nd gas and your roach warren.

DeltruS

Canada2214 Posts

April 02 2012 22:04 GMT

#24

I'm in the process on streamlining the opening build. So far these are the changes:

Reduced the amount of roaches to 5.
Moved the second gas timing back. We need mins for drones too much at this point. Make it after the RW completes.
The 26 ling attack is now a 20 ling attack. Only make 30 supply then move out. This way it is timed to use only the larva from the first inject.
The last 6 lings can only be half way across the map when the 20 lings hit anyways, so now we have 3 more drones at our nat.
At 30 supply, rally the 3 drones to the extractor instead of nat.
Only make a bunch of spines if the opponent has a bunch of infestors or +2 roaches (since those always 2 hit lings).
Also added note about why lategame ZvZ is rare.
More replays.
I've actually been experimenting with not doing the 1/1 timing attack and getting a fast 3rd instead. It has worked really well and is super effective against mutas if you build queens out of your 4 hatches and go infestors. He wont even have upgrades while you will have 2/2.

zerK

Canada176 Posts

April 02 2012 22:45 GMT

#25

wow good work man! Im gonna try it out on ladders! :D

Moosegills

United States558 Posts

April 03 2012 08:15 GMT

#26

On April 03 2012 07:04 DeltruS wrote:
I'm in the process on streamlining the opening build. So far these are the changes:

Reduced the amount of roaches to 5.
Moved the second gas timing back. We need mins for drones too much at this point. Make it after the RW completes.
The 26 ling attack is now a 20 ling attack. Only make 30 supply then move out. This way it is timed to use only the larva from the first inject.
The last 6 lings can only be half way across the map when the 20 lings hit anyways, so now we have 3 more drones at our nat.

Sounds much more solid, gl with tweaking it.

Tribuno

Italy261 Posts

April 03 2012 12:09 GMT

#27

i really like this style and the idea behind it.. but i saw the 2 replays and they finish with the push at 11 min mark.. i think it would be more interesting to see mass spines into late game that u talked about in the op.. i didn't see overlord spread creep on your third and move the spines there to defend it, tech to infestor, crackling ecc.. can you upload some more rep please?

kaliax

United States48 Posts

April 04 2012 04:40 GMT

#28

On April 03 2012 07:04 DeltruS wrote:
I'm in the process on streamlining the opening build. So far these are the changes:

Reduced the amount of roaches to 5.
Moved the second gas timing back. We need mins for drones too much at this point. Make it after the RW completes.
The 26 ling attack is now a 20 ling attack. Only make 30 supply then move out. This way it is timed to use only the larva from the first inject.
The last 6 lings can only be half way across the map when the 20 lings hit anyways, so now we have 3 more drones at our nat.

I like this optimization, but if you start droning before you even hit with your 20 lings, you'll have a harder time re-enforcing if you end up with a BO advantage at his nat. For example, if you happen to hit right when he made a few drones from his hatch-first build and his banes are still morphing, if you snipe the queen and kill off the banes, you can sometimes win the game (or at least snipe the nat if the banes are morphing high ground, essentially winning the game). But in this case you'd want to continue pumping lings. Since you don't make ov until 33 and you have 3 drones building, you might miss an opportunity to seal the game there.

But perhaps I just need better scouting to determine by the 30 supply mark if I think I can do significant damage if I continue pumping lings.

knOxStarcraft

Canada422 Posts

April 04 2012 05:19 GMT

#29

what about double queens on hold at the ramp? Sorry if it was written in the guide and I missed it.

DeltruS

Canada2214 Posts

April 04 2012 19:28 GMT

#30

On April 04 2012 14:19 knOxStarcraft wrote:
what about double queens on hold at the ramp? Sorry if it was written in the guide and I missed it.

Yes, those are really really good. I used queen blocks like 3 times in every game.

Something I am finding out is that while this build is a great guideline, trying to follow the build exactly isn't a good idea. For example, vs a 13 pool you will see the first 4 lings when you first morph your first 6. I immediately put down a spine to defend, disregarding my original build. Then, my opponent is still aggressive, so I have to make units according to how he plays.

Focus on: Ling harass/contain --> defensive roaches --> 2 gas and double evo --> macro hatch + queen --> roach ling style --> don't fall behind in eco.

So, if you practice this build in singleplayer, and then mutate your play in ladder, you will get the best success.

Th1rdEye

United States1074 Posts

April 04 2012 19:51 GMT

#31

Um, the ling attack will not do anything.. sorry. banes will be out in time lol. my build revolves around bane nest before ling speed off FFE. my banes start at 5:00 when ling speed finishes... sorry buddy.

lwwkicker

United States140 Posts

April 04 2012 20:33 GMT

#32

On April 05 2012 04:51 Th1rdEye wrote:
Um, the ling attack will not do anything.. sorry. banes will be out in time lol. my build revolves around bane nest before ling speed off FFE. my banes start at 5:00 when ling speed finishes... sorry buddy.

Already mentioned:

So, he techs to banes. He spends 200/100 on 4 banes and 100/50 + a drone for the bane nest. He also has to get 1 spine or I will easily be able to out micro him. Just for the banes it 450 resources not spent on drones. Not only this, but I usually can still put pressure on him because if he rushes to banes like that off of a hatch first, he wont have many if any zerglings.

[20] lings with good micro can beat 4 banes and 4 lings very easily. If he makes fast banes and lings, you will be even without attacking him.

He CAN get more drones than you at points, since you make the roaches, but you are so safe that you can drone up to 38 ish without worrying about anything. He, on the other hand, isn't so sure. If he does drone that much, you will catch up to him very fast.

So, you give up map control for the next few minutes with defensive banes and he can safely and easily drone behind (as is he already doing), and you are in the dark until your delayed speed kicks in. Forgot who mentioned it, I think it was Belail, but delaying ling speed for early banes is meh (to paraphrase generously).

DeltruS

Canada2214 Posts

April 04 2012 20:35 GMT

#33

I don't know why you would be sorry. I'm trying out new things every day -- I might even do hatch first into this style. Feel free to help me find the best way to do a melee mid-game to lategame.

Here is a replay against pretty standard hatch first into banelings. He does 14/14 and keeps all his guys on gas. http://drop.sc/153698
It isn't a worst case scenario replay, but it does show that attack can do damage despite banelings. I could have even ran a few lings into the main to target down 2-3 drones more drones.

If you have banelings before that time, then you are behind in eco/map control anyways and I don't even have to attack.

Tribuno

Italy261 Posts

April 05 2012 13:57 GMT

#34

deltrus, i didn't receive reply.. can we have some late game (with spine and cracklings) replay?

Sadform

United Kingdom79 Posts

April 05 2012 14:10 GMT

#35

I have used this in my last few games mid-high diamond with good success. I do it slightly different, once I get 100gas i take 2 guys off and leave one on, when i get 50gas i get a banes nest and put 1 more drone on gas. Once my spawning pool pops i only make lings to 30supply and attack and can generally make 3/4 banes too whilst droning and delaying the roach warren a little more as i'm safe with 3/4 banes at home. Seems quite solid and more safe because of the banes in my opinion. The roach isn't massively delayed, only by like 10 food.

Also instead of a macro hatch I generally go for the third instead and then go into roach/infestor or roach hydra (more standard)

Split.

Switzerland234 Posts

April 05 2012 15:58 GMT

#36

Very interesting guide, thank you!

JohnnyYen

United States313 Posts

April 06 2012 04:47 GMT

#37

I have run into a fair amount of people doing this on ladder and I usually don't make it past their ling push. Good stuff.

DeltruS

Canada2214 Posts

April 06 2012 05:13 GMT

#38

I'm actually trying to find out ways to get a fast 3rd and come out way ahead. I think it might have been an error on my part to limit this build to a fast 1/1 timing.

If you take a 3rd, only showing roaches, it is quite likely that the opponent will try to push out with only 1/0 upgrades. Then, you can quickly wipe out his force and heavily exploit your eco advantage.

A quick 3rd is also AMAZING against mutas. We will have 2/2 upgrades while he will have none, and we can mass a HUGE amount of queens and infestors.

I am also thinking a lot about creep spread. If I get really good creep spread, I can replace roaches with hydras. His army has to kill my lings first, so my army would be like roach hydra but with lings instead of roaches. I haven't tried this out yet, but it seems cool.

Also, don't use spines unless you have a TON of drones. I think I over-emphasized them in the guide. Focus on economy when you can can counterattack or kill your opponent if he moves out. Slip in a 4th while harassing, and use that advantage to get more of an advantage.

Overall, this it seems that reading your opponent and getting a large amount of drones is super important, because your opponent can just keep using his advantage if he gets ahead.