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This guide is a modification and follow up to Tang's excellent guide found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=310142
DeltruS Ling-centric Zerg vs Zerg
+ Show Spoiler [About Me] + I am a 1k masters Z on the NA server who loves lings and loves making new builds.
+ Show Spoiler [Why would you want to go mass ling?] +- This style is FUN.
- This style opens up into a never before seen avenue of Z play. You will have infestors, you will have cracklings, you will have mass spines, you will have the ability to make infinity drones behind all that. This is like Stephano style ZvP except with early aggression instead of heavy droning.
- This style is super safe and has a really good economy. Aggression keeps the other Z honest, and most games turn out exactly the same way if you macro well.
+ Show Spoiler [Important reasons to use the Tang opener] +The only thing that counters this type of play is super mass roach baneling, or upgraded roach with a better economy. Early ling aggression means: - He can't get more drones than you. Your pressure is enough to make sure he doesn't go super early upgraded roaches. Usually you can be 100% sure the enemy has 36 drones and no huge roach force when you have 36 drones.
- He also cannot get faster upgrades than you unless he does ~3 spines and no units. He is either spending his gas on banes, or he is doing the same thing as you, or he dies.
Stage 1
We start with the basic Tang opener:
- 15 pool
- 15 gas
- 17 expo
- 16 queen
- 6 lings, only make lings until 30 supply
- 21 queen
- 23 overlord
- Rally 24th supply egg to make a spine at nat.
- Move out your lings for a timing attack/harass. (see the other guide linked at the top for ways to micro this and what to attack)
- Rally 3 drone eggs to gas
- 33/36 - overlord + make ~6 drones or more at your nat.
This 20 ling attack can do damage to any Z build that starts with 14/14 or hatch first. He might be making a few banes at this moment. If that is the case, a-move and select ~6 lings to attack queue all the morphing cocoons.
This attack can kill a Z going for fast roaches unless he spends extra money on 2 spines or a bunch of lings.
I've been doing this first part of the build for a long time, and there are very few, if any builds that come out very ahead after this. The goal of this attack is to make sure he doesn't get a large amount of early roaches or a ton of drones.
Stage 2 - RW when those gas drones hatch. If you can get many drones in here, you need those drones because it means your opponent is making drones.
- 5 roaches for defence and a later timing attack.
- Second extractor when RW finishes.
- Double evo at 100 gas, drone to 15 on each base's minerals for a total of 38 drones.
- Macro hatch then queen when saturated.
- 9 more roaches + Do a timing attack if he doesn't have many spines or you think he will die. Try to keep all 14 roaches unless you think you will kill him. This attack should hit at around 11:00. If you don't do the timing attack, take a 3rd and then just build lings when you are being attacked.
- Lair + Gas (3) right after the 9 roaches and make no more roaches.
- Lair complete - Gas(4) and 2/2 right away then burrow (for sexy harass and expo blocking) and then infestation pit.
+ Show Spoiler [Math Behind the Timings] +http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Resources#Vespene_Gas120 gas per minute per geyser. 2 gas per second per gyser. 4 gas per second for 2 gysers. Evo chamber takes 35s. Lair takes 80s. 1/1 takes 160s. - We need 250 gas off 2 gysers for 1/1. Evo chambers take 35 s to make. 35s*4gas/sec = 140 gas that is made during the evo morph. So make your evos around 100-110 gas.
- After the 2 upgrades start, we will need 100 gas in 80 seconds. So, (80s)(4Gas/s) - 100 gas = 220 gas for roaches. So, we can make 225gas/25 gas per roach = 9 more roaches for a total of 15.
After making a lair, we will need 375 gas for 2/2. We can only get 320, so we need to add a 3rd gas as we get the lair.
Stage 3 - Opponent Takes a 3rd
This is when you start to get vulnerable to huge roach balls. To combat this, we make 5 or so spines after we start our 2/2.
You take your 3rd when your opponent takes his. Get a bunch of spines before he gets +2 roaches because those always 2 shot lings.
Note: Due to the nature of ZvZ, it is really rare to get to the lategame. Usually, one player with an advantage can deny the other's 3rd and end the game like that.
Get your hive around when your infestation pit finishes and switch to infestors when your 6 gas gets up.
The goal and inspiration of stage 3 is the Stephano style of ZvP. He gets a billion spines and drones, and still is ahead in economy. The enemy can't attack him and he is safe for the rest of the mid game.
Things to note: - In stage 2, you can scout if he is going mutas by sneaking lings into his main. If he does go mutas, you could very likely kill him with your timing attack, but if he doesn't die, you should make 2 sets of queens with your hatches for a total of 7, and replace those spines with spores. Just drone up and transition to infestors like usual.
- If your opponent has a lot of spines, you can very often kill him by getting a bane nest before the push and skipping lair and 2/2. You can get over 15 banes and just kill all the spines. This is all in vs mutas, but still, he used a ton of money on spines and shouldn't have a lot of units.
Stage 4 - End Game
You should get ultras/cracklings before your opponent gets 3/3. If this is the case, be aggressive as possible. Fungal + Ultras STOMPS infestor roach and, if you get your cracklings in there without them dying to fungal, it is GG.
You can limit your opponent to a 3 base economy with ling run-bys, burrowed lings, burrowed infestors, or speed banes if you choose to get them.
+ Show Spoiler [Overlord Scouting Paths] +Overlord 1: Outside enemy natural
Overlord 2: Enemy 3rd
Overlord 3: Around your base where banes usually morph.
Overlord 4-5: Flanking paths
Overlord 6: Your 3rd.
+ Show Spoiler [Replays] +
+ Show Spoiler [Changelog] +- Reduced the amount of roaches to 5.
- Moved the second gas timing back. We need mins for drones too much at this point. Make it after the RW completes.
- The 26 ling attack is now a 20 ling attack. Only make 30 supply then move out. This way it is timed to use only the larva from the first inject.
The last 6 lings can only be half way across the map when the 20 lings hit anyways, so now we have 3 more drones at our nat.
- At 30 supply, rally the 3 drones to the extractor instead of nat.
- Only make a bunch of spines if the opponent has a bunch of infestors or +2 roaches (since those always 2 hit lings).
- Also added note about why lategame ZvZ is rare.
- More replays.
- I've actually been experimenting with not doing the 1/1 timing attack and getting a fast 3rd instead. It has worked really well and is super effective against mutas if you build queens out of your 4 hatches and go infestors. He wont even have upgrades while you will have 2/2.
- Don't upgrade +2 carapace. Roaches 2 shot lings no matter what once they get +2 attack so the extra carapace does nothing.
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I quite like this idea. I dislike roaches in general and I love playing with speedlings. I'll need to work on my speedling micro but I'd definitely want to give this a go. As you mentioned, mass roach/bane styles could be problematic, but I think at my level some clever backstabbing and delaying tactics could work.
Also, I really like how you've thought out this build. It already seems somewhat refined and I especially like how you've worked out the timings. The double evo at 100 gas is one of my favourites.
Thanks for posting!
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Really good work. Extremely useful regarding the (a little less now) chaotic early ZvZ game. I'm going to try it. Thank you.
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On April 02 2012 08:10 SeinGalton wrote:
I quite like this idea. I dislike roaches in general and I love playing with speedlings. I'll need to work on my speedling micro but I'd definitely want to give this a go. As you mentioned, mass roach/bane styles could be problematic, but I think at my level some clever backstabbing and delaying tactics could work.
Also, I really like how you've thought out this build. It already seems somewhat refined and I especially like how you've worked out the timings. The double evo at 100 gas is one of my favourites.
Thanks for posting!
The 6 roaches into double evo part of the build is wonderful for ZvT too. Just rally drones to gas at 33 supply and make a RW/Gas when those hatch. You drone to 44 without making many attacking units, put down a macro hatch, get double upgrades, and then go for a super economic roach ling early game.
If the Terran 2 raxed me, and I am recovering, I just skip the roaches since he wont have hellions.
If you have 1 gyser, you can put down an evo at 25 gas and get 100 gas when it finishes.
On April 02 2012 08:23 C23 wrote:
Really good work. Extremely useful regarding the (a little less now) chaotic early ZvZ game. I'm going to try it. Thank you.
Yes, this style is very safe. We attack when it is least chaotic, and defend when it is most chaotic.
I usually win against 13 pool because I have more lings than him, queen block, and a spine. Just focus down banes when they are morphing, then focus down the surviving ones with queens. Against a later baneling attack, we just counter into his base and queen block the ramp.
I am unsure about beating 10 pool, but I think it is quite possible. With the right response, it might be easy.
Other than those two timings, we are safe for the entire early game.
I'm very happy you both enjoyed it.
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This is a really interesting transition!
I play out ZvZ mid/late game very differently, usually opting for upgraded roaches and infestors and occasionally mutalisks. I almost never go for melee upgrades with zerglings, it's just a style I've never felt was stable because of those nasty roach timings. However, with the amount of spines you make, I can see this working!
What I like most is the late game transition into Ultralisk/Crackling/Infestor, because (surprise surprise) my ZvZ games don't often make it to the Hive stage so this could be a good way for me to add variety to my late-game. Thanks a lot for the work you put into this, I'll be sure to experiment with this style!
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I've been using a lot of mid game ling infestor into ultra in zvz for ages, and I've got like 70% winrate, I just don't use such an aggressive opener :D
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Great build, thanks for the post! I like the Tang opener but was never comfortable with the roach transition, this is a really fun style.
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On April 02 2012 06:40 DeltruS wrote:Early ling aggression means: He can't get more drones than you. Your pressure is enough to make sure he doesn't go super early upgraded roaches. Usually you can be 100% sure the enemy has 36 drones and no huge roach force when you have 36 drones.
- He also cannot get faster upgrades than you unless he does ~3 spines and no units. He is either spending his gas on banes, or he is doing the same thing as you, or he dies.
I really don't understand why you say that; if you are making 13 larvae worth of lings, your opponent can easily tech banelings and have 5 drones more than you while being safe from the ling attack.
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On April 02 2012 13:40 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 06:40 DeltruS wrote:Early ling aggression means: He can't get more drones than you. Your pressure is enough to make sure he doesn't go super early upgraded roaches. Usually you can be 100% sure the enemy has 36 drones and no huge roach force when you have 36 drones.
- He also cannot get faster upgrades than you unless he does ~3 spines and no units. He is either spending his gas on banes, or he is doing the same thing as you, or he dies.
I really don't understand why you say that; if you are making 13 larvae worth of lings, your opponent can easily tech banelings and have 5 drones more than you while being safe from the ling attack.
Those banes will be morphing when your 22 lings hit (assuming he expanded), allowing you a small window to equalize on drones by killing any of his drones at his nat.
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On April 02 2012 13:40 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 06:40 DeltruS wrote:Early ling aggression means: He can't get more drones than you. Your pressure is enough to make sure he doesn't go super early upgraded roaches. Usually you can be 100% sure the enemy has 36 drones and no huge roach force when you have 36 drones.
- He also cannot get faster upgrades than you unless he does ~3 spines and no units. He is either spending his gas on banes, or he is doing the same thing as you, or he dies.
I really don't understand why you say that; if you are making 13 larvae worth of lings, your opponent can easily tech banelings and have 5 drones more than you while being safe from the ling attack.
So, he techs to banes. He spends 200/100 on 4 banes and 100/50 + a drone for the bane nest. He also has to get 1 spine or I will easily be able to out micro him. Just for the banes it 450 resources not spent on drones. Not only this, but I usually can still put pressure on him because if he rushes to banes like that off of a hatch first, he wont have many if any zerglings.
26 lings with good micro can beat 4 banes and 4 lings very easily. If he makes fast banes and lings, you will be even without attacking him.
He CAN get more drones than you at points, since you make the roaches, but you are so safe that you can drone up to 38 ish without worrying about anything. He, on the other hand, isn't so sure. If he does drone that much, you will catch up to him very fast.
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Amazing mid-game guide! However, why +1 Melee over +1 range?
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On April 02 2012 14:20 warblob004 wrote:
Amazing mid-game guide! However, why +1 Melee over +1 range?
The goal of the style is for a melee based army. If you want, you can instead get +1 range and transition to roach, but the macro hatch you made just for the timing would be useless. The macro hatch is is great for the timing because a wave ~30 lings can reach his base at the same time the roaches arrive. If you reinforced with roaches, those roaches would only be a quarter of the way across the map.
If you don't include the macro hatch or the +1 melee, you are basically doing Tang's guide but with upgrades.
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On April 02 2012 14:06 DeltruS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 13:40 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 06:40 DeltruS wrote:Early ling aggression means: He can't get more drones than you. Your pressure is enough to make sure he doesn't go super early upgraded roaches. Usually you can be 100% sure the enemy has 36 drones and no huge roach force when you have 36 drones.
- He also cannot get faster upgrades than you unless he does ~3 spines and no units. He is either spending his gas on banes, or he is doing the same thing as you, or he dies.
I really don't understand why you say that; if you are making 13 larvae worth of lings, your opponent can easily tech banelings and have 5 drones more than you while being safe from the ling attack. So, he techs to banes. He spends 200/100 on 4 banes and 100/50 + a drone for the bane nest. He also has to get 1 spine or I will easily be able to out micro him. Just for the banes it 450 resources not spent on drones. Not only this, but I usually can still put pressure on him because if he rushes to banes like that off of a hatch first, he wont have many if any zerglings. 26 lings with good micro can beat 4 banes and 4 lings very easily. If he makes fast banes and lings, you will be even without attacking him. He CAN get more drones than you at points, since you make the roaches, but you are so safe that you can drone up to 38 ish without worrying about anything. He, on the other hand, isn't so sure. If he does drone that much, you will catch up to him very fast.
Saying if your opponent goes banes means you will just out micro them seems pretty variable rather than something that is actually solid.
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On April 02 2012 14:23 DeltruS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:20 warblob004 wrote:
Amazing mid-game guide! However, why +1 Melee over +1 range? The goal of the style is for a melee based army. If you want, you can instead get +1 range and transition to roach, but the macro hatch you made just for the timing would be useless. The macro hatch is is great for the timing because a wave ~30 lings can reach his base at the same time the roaches arrive. If you reinforced with roaches, those roaches would only be a quarter of the way across the map. If you don't include the macro hatch or the +1 melee, you are basically doing Tang's guide but with upgrades.
Ah, I see. So mainly for the +3/+3 lategame ultra/ling.
Thanks again for writing up the guide! 
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On April 02 2012 14:31 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:06 DeltruS wrote:On April 02 2012 13:40 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 06:40 DeltruS wrote:Early ling aggression means: He can't get more drones than you. Your pressure is enough to make sure he doesn't go super early upgraded roaches. Usually you can be 100% sure the enemy has 36 drones and no huge roach force when you have 36 drones.
- He also cannot get faster upgrades than you unless he does ~3 spines and no units. He is either spending his gas on banes, or he is doing the same thing as you, or he dies.
I really don't understand why you say that; if you are making 13 larvae worth of lings, your opponent can easily tech banelings and have 5 drones more than you while being safe from the ling attack. So, he techs to banes. He spends 200/100 on 4 banes and 100/50 + a drone for the bane nest. He also has to get 1 spine or I will easily be able to out micro him. Just for the banes it 450 resources not spent on drones. Not only this, but I usually can still put pressure on him because if he rushes to banes like that off of a hatch first, he wont have many if any zerglings. 26 lings with good micro can beat 4 banes and 4 lings very easily. If he makes fast banes and lings, you will be even without attacking him. He CAN get more drones than you at points, since you make the roaches, but you are so safe that you can drone up to 38 ish without worrying about anything. He, on the other hand, isn't so sure. If he does drone that much, you will catch up to him very fast. Saying if your opponent goes banes means you will just out micro them seems pretty variable rather than something that is actually solid.
I haven't played anyone who has such amazing micro that they can deflect all my lings so easily. Even if you take 3 lings and target fire each bane, you will still force him to make units and not drones.
I'm not going to argue that this will work every time, because it is ZvZ and ZvZ has a billion variables. Every build has the same type of weakness like "What if he goes x and has amazingly better micro than you?".
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On April 02 2012 14:39 DeltruS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:31 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 14:06 DeltruS wrote:On April 02 2012 13:40 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 06:40 DeltruS wrote:Early ling aggression means: He can't get more drones than you. Your pressure is enough to make sure he doesn't go super early upgraded roaches. Usually you can be 100% sure the enemy has 36 drones and no huge roach force when you have 36 drones.
- He also cannot get faster upgrades than you unless he does ~3 spines and no units. He is either spending his gas on banes, or he is doing the same thing as you, or he dies.
I really don't understand why you say that; if you are making 13 larvae worth of lings, your opponent can easily tech banelings and have 5 drones more than you while being safe from the ling attack. So, he techs to banes. He spends 200/100 on 4 banes and 100/50 + a drone for the bane nest. He also has to get 1 spine or I will easily be able to out micro him. Just for the banes it 450 resources not spent on drones. Not only this, but I usually can still put pressure on him because if he rushes to banes like that off of a hatch first, he wont have many if any zerglings. 26 lings with good micro can beat 4 banes and 4 lings very easily. If he makes fast banes and lings, you will be even without attacking him. He CAN get more drones than you at points, since you make the roaches, but you are so safe that you can drone up to 38 ish without worrying about anything. He, on the other hand, isn't so sure. If he does drone that much, you will catch up to him very fast. Saying if your opponent goes banes means you will just out micro them seems pretty variable rather than something that is actually solid. I haven't played anyone who has such amazing micro that they can deflect all my lings so easily. Even if you take 3 lings and target fire each bane, you will still force him to make units and not drones. I'm not going to argue that this will work every time, because it is ZvZ and ZvZ has a billion variables. Every build has the same type of weakness like "What if he goes x and has amazingly better micro than you?".
But at the same time, if he has baneling tech already and you force him to make units, don't you just die to a ling bane counter attack after your ling attack is possible deflected.
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On April 02 2012 14:45 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:39 DeltruS wrote:On April 02 2012 14:31 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 14:06 DeltruS wrote:On April 02 2012 13:40 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 06:40 DeltruS wrote:Early ling aggression means: He can't get more drones than you. Your pressure is enough to make sure he doesn't go super early upgraded roaches. Usually you can be 100% sure the enemy has 36 drones and no huge roach force when you have 36 drones.
- He also cannot get faster upgrades than you unless he does ~3 spines and no units. He is either spending his gas on banes, or he is doing the same thing as you, or he dies.
I really don't understand why you say that; if you are making 13 larvae worth of lings, your opponent can easily tech banelings and have 5 drones more than you while being safe from the ling attack. So, he techs to banes. He spends 200/100 on 4 banes and 100/50 + a drone for the bane nest. He also has to get 1 spine or I will easily be able to out micro him. Just for the banes it 450 resources not spent on drones. Not only this, but I usually can still put pressure on him because if he rushes to banes like that off of a hatch first, he wont have many if any zerglings. 26 lings with good micro can beat 4 banes and 4 lings very easily. If he makes fast banes and lings, you will be even without attacking him. He CAN get more drones than you at points, since you make the roaches, but you are so safe that you can drone up to 38 ish without worrying about anything. He, on the other hand, isn't so sure. If he does drone that much, you will catch up to him very fast. Saying if your opponent goes banes means you will just out micro them seems pretty variable rather than something that is actually solid. I haven't played anyone who has such amazing micro that they can deflect all my lings so easily. Even if you take 3 lings and target fire each bane, you will still force him to make units and not drones. I'm not going to argue that this will work every time, because it is ZvZ and ZvZ has a billion variables. Every build has the same type of weakness like "What if he goes x and has amazingly better micro than you?". But at the same time, if he has baneling tech already and you force him to make units, don't you just die to a ling bane counter attack after your ling attack is possible deflected.
I have 2 queens if I have to retreat drones and 6 roaches on the way. From there I am safe to drone for a few minutes, while he is unsure of how many roaches I have. He also would have committed a ton of money to lings while I droned behind the attack.
Please no more theorycrafting. If you do the build perfectly and micro perfectly and still lose to something, you can post the replay and we can discuss the ramifications. If there are any.
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On April 02 2012 14:48 DeltruS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:45 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 14:39 DeltruS wrote:On April 02 2012 14:31 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 14:06 DeltruS wrote:On April 02 2012 13:40 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 06:40 DeltruS wrote:Early ling aggression means: He can't get more drones than you. Your pressure is enough to make sure he doesn't go super early upgraded roaches. Usually you can be 100% sure the enemy has 36 drones and no huge roach force when you have 36 drones.
- He also cannot get faster upgrades than you unless he does ~3 spines and no units. He is either spending his gas on banes, or he is doing the same thing as you, or he dies.
I really don't understand why you say that; if you are making 13 larvae worth of lings, your opponent can easily tech banelings and have 5 drones more than you while being safe from the ling attack. So, he techs to banes. He spends 200/100 on 4 banes and 100/50 + a drone for the bane nest. He also has to get 1 spine or I will easily be able to out micro him. Just for the banes it 450 resources not spent on drones. Not only this, but I usually can still put pressure on him because if he rushes to banes like that off of a hatch first, he wont have many if any zerglings. 26 lings with good micro can beat 4 banes and 4 lings very easily. If he makes fast banes and lings, you will be even without attacking him. He CAN get more drones than you at points, since you make the roaches, but you are so safe that you can drone up to 38 ish without worrying about anything. He, on the other hand, isn't so sure. If he does drone that much, you will catch up to him very fast. Saying if your opponent goes banes means you will just out micro them seems pretty variable rather than something that is actually solid. I haven't played anyone who has such amazing micro that they can deflect all my lings so easily. Even if you take 3 lings and target fire each bane, you will still force him to make units and not drones. I'm not going to argue that this will work every time, because it is ZvZ and ZvZ has a billion variables. Every build has the same type of weakness like "What if he goes x and has amazingly better micro than you?". But at the same time, if he has baneling tech already and you force him to make units, don't you just die to a ling bane counter attack after your ling attack is possible deflected. I have 2 queens if I have to retreat drones and 6 roaches on the way. From there I am safe to drone for a few minutes, while he is unsure of how many roaches I have. He also would have committed a ton of money to lings while I droned behind the attack. Please no more theorycrafting. If you do the build perfectly and micro perfectly and still lose to something, you can post the replay and we can discuss the ramifications. If there are any.
The replay vs northern - @ 6:20 -you do your attack, and he goes quick banes and is 6 drones ahead after your attack is finished of. Your roach warren is 12 seconds done meaning there is 70 seconds before any roaches come out. If he were to attack you that is a huge window of vulnerability as you can't effectively engage ling bane with only ling, not that he has to since he is already 6 drones ahead.
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On April 02 2012 15:06 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:48 DeltruS wrote:
I have 2 queens if I have to retreat drones and 6 roaches on the way. From there I am safe to drone for a few minutes, while he is unsure of how many roaches I have. He also would have committed a ton of money to lings while I droned behind the attack.
Please no more theorycrafting. If you do the build perfectly and micro perfectly and still lose to something, you can post the replay and we can discuss the ramifications. If there are any. The replay vs northern - @ 6:20 -you do your attack, and he goes quick banes and is 6 drones ahead after your attack is finished of. Your roach warren is 12 seconds done meaning there is 70 seconds before any roaches come out. If he were to attack you that is a huge window of vulnerability as you can't effectively engage ling bane with only ling, not that he has to since he is already 6 drones ahead.
Yes, I micro horribly and blow up like 12 lings on one baneling. Already this replay doesn't apply. I even macro'd terribly. Even so, I caught up to him in drones very quickly, and the game didn't just end.
If you want to complain about early ling attacks, go do it in Tang's thread, which this is based off of. It has a blind 44 ling attack with many replays against top NA players such as Sheth.
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On April 02 2012 15:18 DeltruS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 15:06 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 14:48 DeltruS wrote:On April 02 2012 14:45 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 14:39 DeltruS wrote:On April 02 2012 14:31 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 14:06 DeltruS wrote:On April 02 2012 13:40 Moosegills wrote:On April 02 2012 06:40 DeltruS wrote:Early ling aggression means: He can't get more drones than you. Your pressure is enough to make sure he doesn't go super early upgraded roaches. Usually you can be 100% sure the enemy has 36 drones and no huge roach force when you have 36 drones.
- He also cannot get faster upgrades than you unless he does ~3 spines and no units. He is either spending his gas on banes, or he is doing the same thing as you, or he dies.
I really don't understand why you say that; if you are making 13 larvae worth of lings, your opponent can easily tech banelings and have 5 drones more than you while being safe from the ling attack. So, he techs to banes. He spends 200/100 on 4 banes and 100/50 + a drone for the bane nest. He also has to get 1 spine or I will easily be able to out micro him. Just for the banes it 450 resources not spent on drones. Not only this, but I usually can still put pressure on him because if he rushes to banes like that off of a hatch first, he wont have many if any zerglings. 26 lings with good micro can beat 4 banes and 4 lings very easily. If he makes fast banes and lings, you will be even without attacking him. He CAN get more drones than you at points, since you make the roaches, but you are so safe that you can drone up to 38 ish without worrying about anything. He, on the other hand, isn't so sure. If he does drone that much, you will catch up to him very fast. Saying if your opponent goes banes means you will just out micro them seems pretty variable rather than something that is actually solid. I haven't played anyone who has such amazing micro that they can deflect all my lings so easily. Even if you take 3 lings and target fire each bane, you will still force him to make units and not drones. I'm not going to argue that this will work every time, because it is ZvZ and ZvZ has a billion variables. Every build has the same type of weakness like "What if he goes x and has amazingly better micro than you?". But at the same time, if he has baneling tech already and you force him to make units, don't you just die to a ling bane counter attack after your ling attack is possible deflected. I have 2 queens if I have to retreat drones and 6 roaches on the way. From there I am safe to drone for a few minutes, while he is unsure of how many roaches I have. He also would have committed a ton of money to lings while I droned behind the attack. Please no more theorycrafting. If you do the build perfectly and micro perfectly and still lose to something, you can post the replay and we can discuss the ramifications. If there are any. The replay vs northern - @ 6:20 -you do your attack, and he goes quick banes and is 6 drones ahead after your attack is finished of. Your roach warren is 12 seconds done meaning there is 70 seconds before any roaches come out. If he were to attack you that is a huge window of vulnerability as you can't effectively engage ling bane with only ling, not that he has to since he is already 6 drones ahead. Yes, I micro horribly and blow up like 12 lings on one baneling. Already this replay doesn't apply. I even macro'd terribly. I caught up to him in drones very easily, and the game didn't just end. My last statement still stands. If you want to complain about early ling attacks, go do it in Tang's thread, which this is based off of. It has a blind 44 ling attack with many replays.
Ya you could have micro'ed better where you didn't lose all of your lings but there was no way that you were going to do significant damage vs a queen block + spine + 5 or so banes and lings incoming. Either way you keep the lings alive or not, in that instance your opponent was ahead on drones and no way for you to do dmg w/o him making a big mistake.
I'm not trying to necessarily call your build bad, i just want to point out that mass ling is a coinflip whether it works a high percentage of the time or not. That replay was a specific instance where your opponent had a good opening and there was no way for you to do significant damage.
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sorry but what do you do against a roach/ baneling attack from 2 bases? Seems to me like impossible to defend with pure ling.
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What does « RW and gas(2) when those gas(1) drones hatch. » mean ?
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On April 02 2012 17:14 RobiTL wrote:
What does « RW and gas(2) when those gas(1) drones hatch. » mean ?
At 33 supply you make three drones and rally them (the eggs) back into your 1st gas: when they hatch, you start morphing a 2nd gas and your roach warren.
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I'm in the process on streamlining the opening build. So far these are the changes:
- Reduced the amount of roaches to 5.
- Moved the second gas timing back. We need mins for drones too much at this point. Make it after the RW completes.
- The 26 ling attack is now a 20 ling attack. Only make 30 supply then move out. This way it is timed to use only the larva from the first inject.
The last 6 lings can only be half way across the map when the 20 lings hit anyways, so now we have 3 more drones at our nat.
- At 30 supply, rally the 3 drones to the extractor instead of nat.
- Only make a bunch of spines if the opponent has a bunch of infestors or +2 roaches (since those always 2 hit lings).
- Also added note about why lategame ZvZ is rare.
- More replays.
- I've actually been experimenting with not doing the 1/1 timing attack and getting a fast 3rd instead. It has worked really well and is super effective against mutas if you build queens out of your 4 hatches and go infestors. He wont even have upgrades while you will have 2/2.
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wow good work man! Im gonna try it out on ladders! :D
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On April 03 2012 07:04 DeltruS wrote:I'm in the process on streamlining the opening build. So far these are the changes: - Reduced the amount of roaches to 5.
- Moved the second gas timing back. We need mins for drones too much at this point. Make it after the RW completes.
- The 26 ling attack is now a 20 ling attack. Only make 30 supply then move out. This way it is timed to use only the larva from the first inject.
The last 6 lings can only be half way across the map when the 20 lings hit anyways, so now we have 3 more drones at our nat.
Sounds much more solid, gl with tweaking it.
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i really like this style and the idea behind it.. but i saw the 2 replays and they finish with the push at 11 min mark.. i think it would be more interesting to see mass spines into late game that u talked about in the op.. i didn't see overlord spread creep on your third and move the spines there to defend it, tech to infestor, crackling ecc.. can you upload some more rep please?
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On April 03 2012 07:04 DeltruS wrote:I'm in the process on streamlining the opening build. So far these are the changes: - Reduced the amount of roaches to 5.
- Moved the second gas timing back. We need mins for drones too much at this point. Make it after the RW completes.
- The 26 ling attack is now a 20 ling attack. Only make 30 supply then move out. This way it is timed to use only the larva from the first inject.
The last 6 lings can only be half way across the map when the 20 lings hit anyways, so now we have 3 more drones at our nat.
I like this optimization, but if you start droning before you even hit with your 20 lings, you'll have a harder time re-enforcing if you end up with a BO advantage at his nat. For example, if you happen to hit right when he made a few drones from his hatch-first build and his banes are still morphing, if you snipe the queen and kill off the banes, you can sometimes win the game (or at least snipe the nat if the banes are morphing high ground, essentially winning the game). But in this case you'd want to continue pumping lings. Since you don't make ov until 33 and you have 3 drones building, you might miss an opportunity to seal the game there.
But perhaps I just need better scouting to determine by the 30 supply mark if I think I can do significant damage if I continue pumping lings.
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what about double queens on hold at the ramp? Sorry if it was written in the guide and I missed it.
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On April 04 2012 14:19 knOxStarcraft wrote:
what about double queens on hold at the ramp? Sorry if it was written in the guide and I missed it.
Yes, those are really really good. I used queen blocks like 3 times in every game.
Something I am finding out is that while this build is a great guideline, trying to follow the build exactly isn't a good idea. For example, vs a 13 pool you will see the first 4 lings when you first morph your first 6. I immediately put down a spine to defend, disregarding my original build. Then, my opponent is still aggressive, so I have to make units according to how he plays.
Focus on: Ling harass/contain --> defensive roaches --> 2 gas and double evo --> macro hatch + queen --> roach ling style --> don't fall behind in eco.
So, if you practice this build in singleplayer, and then mutate your play in ladder, you will get the best success.
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Um, the ling attack will not do anything.. sorry. banes will be out in time lol. my build revolves around bane nest before ling speed off FFE. my banes start at 5:00 when ling speed finishes... sorry buddy.
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On April 05 2012 04:51 Th1rdEye wrote:
Um, the ling attack will not do anything.. sorry. banes will be out in time lol. my build revolves around bane nest before ling speed off FFE. my banes start at 5:00 when ling speed finishes... sorry buddy.
Already mentioned:
So, he techs to banes. He spends 200/100 on 4 banes and 100/50 + a drone for the bane nest. He also has to get 1 spine or I will easily be able to out micro him. Just for the banes it 450 resources not spent on drones. Not only this, but I usually can still put pressure on him because if he rushes to banes like that off of a hatch first, he wont have many if any zerglings.
[20] lings with good micro can beat 4 banes and 4 lings very easily. If he makes fast banes and lings, you will be even without attacking him.
He CAN get more drones than you at points, since you make the roaches, but you are so safe that you can drone up to 38 ish without worrying about anything. He, on the other hand, isn't so sure. If he does drone that much, you will catch up to him very fast.
So, you give up map control for the next few minutes with defensive banes and he can safely and easily drone behind (as is he already doing), and you are in the dark until your delayed speed kicks in. Forgot who mentioned it, I think it was Belail, but delaying ling speed for early banes is meh (to paraphrase generously).
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On April 05 2012 04:51 Th1rdEye wrote:
Um, the ling attack will not do anything.. sorry. banes will be out in time lol. my build revolves around bane nest before ling speed off FFE. my banes start at 5:00 when ling speed finishes... sorry buddy.
I don't know why you would be sorry. I'm trying out new things every day -- I might even do hatch first into this style. Feel free to help me find the best way to do a melee mid-game to lategame.
Here is a replay against pretty standard hatch first into banelings. He does 14/14 and keeps all his guys on gas. http://drop.sc/153698
It isn't a worst case scenario replay, but it does show that attack can do damage despite banelings. I could have even ran a few lings into the main to target down 2-3 drones more drones.
If you have banelings before that time, then you are behind in eco/map control anyways and I don't even have to attack.
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deltrus, i didn't receive reply.. can we have some late game (with spine and cracklings) replay?
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I have used this in my last few games mid-high diamond with good success. I do it slightly different, once I get 100gas i take 2 guys off and leave one on, when i get 50gas i get a banes nest and put 1 more drone on gas. Once my spawning pool pops i only make lings to 30supply and attack and can generally make 3/4 banes too whilst droning and delaying the roach warren a little more as i'm safe with 3/4 banes at home. Seems quite solid and more safe because of the banes in my opinion. The roach isn't massively delayed, only by like 10 food.
Also instead of a macro hatch I generally go for the third instead and then go into roach/infestor or roach hydra (more standard)
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Very interesting guide, thank you!
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I have run into a fair amount of people doing this on ladder and I usually don't make it past their ling push. Good stuff.
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I'm actually trying to find out ways to get a fast 3rd and come out way ahead. I think it might have been an error on my part to limit this build to a fast 1/1 timing.
If you take a 3rd, only showing roaches, it is quite likely that the opponent will try to push out with only 1/0 upgrades. Then, you can quickly wipe out his force and heavily exploit your eco advantage.
A quick 3rd is also AMAZING against mutas. We will have 2/2 upgrades while he will have none, and we can mass a HUGE amount of queens and infestors.
I am also thinking a lot about creep spread. If I get really good creep spread, I can replace roaches with hydras. His army has to kill my lings first, so my army would be like roach hydra but with lings instead of roaches. I haven't tried this out yet, but it seems cool.
Also, don't use spines unless you have a TON of drones. I think I over-emphasized them in the guide. Focus on economy when you can can counterattack or kill your opponent if he moves out. Slip in a 4th while harassing, and use that advantage to get more of an advantage.
Overall, this it seems that reading your opponent and getting a large amount of drones is super important, because your opponent can just keep using his advantage if he gets ahead.
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On April 05 2012 04:51 Th1rdEye wrote:
Um, the ling attack will not do anything.. sorry. banes will be out in time lol. my build revolves around bane nest before ling speed off FFE. my banes start at 5:00 when ling speed finishes... sorry buddy. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa.
Hold the fuck up. We can build forges now?
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only make lings until 30 supply
Rally 24th supply egg to make a spine at nat
Do you make a spine out of lings or did I miss something? :x
Otherwise nice guide I may try this in ladder!
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i postet the same on tangs thread because you used his opening style, but i got no answer... perhaps you can help... and btw its a good and fun way to play but i have a problem with that-->
i see no possible way to hold a 14/14 ling/bling allin with this opener, i tried 3 times. But i really want to :D
at one moment:
- i got 6 lings one queen and a building spine
- opponent has 10 lings and earlier ling speed
and its a small and neat window where he can crush you, before additional lings come out.
replay --> http://drop.sc/154469
i saw that you say to build a additional spine in the main, but i dont see where this helps... perhaps an earlier spine pre building in the main or something like that?
Cheers and thx
Michael
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You need 2 queens to block the ramp. You will have more lings than him because you have 2 hatches while he has 1. If you have more lings than him, which you should, you can prevent him from morphing banes.
If you both have speed, try to keep the battle as far away from your base as possible. It can take around 50s for banes to walk across a map on many maps.
I also bind my drones at my natural to "3" so that I can quickly move them past my queens and then move them back after.
Look at the "Holding Early Cheese/Pressure" header in tang's guide here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=310142
"episode 4" apparently has a video focusing on holding baneling rushes.
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You forget an OL in your buildorder (the one after the initial queen). Also your replays doesn't stick to the build all the times.
Still, a very good guide, keep working on it.
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Well your answer tells me, that you didtn watch the replay i posted...
if you simply make a 14/14 and stream lings into the other base, you win against this build. In my case, my friend wanted to bling allin but, there was no need to, ling only are enough.
i watched the tang guides about earlie cheese, but there is no one where the other simply streams lings in.
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On April 09 2012 01:45 enykie wrote:
Well your answer tells me, that you didtn watch the replay i posted...
if you simply make a 14/14 and stream lings into the other base, you win against this build. In my case, my friend wanted to bling allin but, there was no need to, ling only are enough.
i watched the tang guides about earlie cheese, but there is no one where the other simply streams lings in.
Ok, I watched the replay. You just needed to block the ramp half with queens and lings so that only 2 lings can engage at once. A queen has more DPS than a ling, so you would be fighting 3 to 2.
Your spine should be a bit further back too for a better simcity. Then, if he goes after the spine, attack his lings, and if he attacks your lings, move back behind the queen on the ramp. You had more drones than him and more production facilities, so just delaying would allow you to hold and stomp him with a counter.
EDIT: Just realized that roaches 2 shot lings no matter what once they get +2 attack so the +2 carapace does nothing. So don't get it. This actually is quite nice because it means infestation put on lair complete.
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Thx alot DeltruS!
Another Question, if i play like your style, i often have a situation, where i have lots of minerals and larave and not shure if i build drones or lings. Like when he camps in his base and i build lots of lings it is kinda obious that he needs banes.
So do you build lots of lings and try to to damage or do you build them and show them for mapcontrol?
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Great guide!
Not sure if this is in the OP or not, I didn't see it.
But, +1 Lings absolutely rape Roaches, so it's probably good to put that in the guide for people skeptical. Maybe with some math behind it.
Good job, will use!
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On April 09 2012 05:05 DeltruS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 01:45 enykie wrote:
Well your answer tells me, that you didtn watch the replay i posted...
if you simply make a 14/14 and stream lings into the other base, you win against this build. In my case, my friend wanted to bling allin but, there was no need to, ling only are enough.
i watched the tang guides about earlie cheese, but there is no one where the other simply streams lings in. Ok, I watched the replay. You just needed to block the ramp half with queens and lings so that only 2 lings can engage at once. A queen has more DPS than a ling, so you would be fighting 3 to 2. Your spine should be a bit further back too for a better simcity. Then, if he goes after the spine, attack his lings, and if he attacks your lings, move back behind the queen on the ramp. You had more drones than him and more production facilities, so just delaying would allow you to hold and stomp him with a counter. EDIT: Just realized that roaches 2 shot lings no matter what once they get +2 attack so the +2 carapace does nothing. So don't get it. This actually is quite nice because it means infestation put on lair complete.
Not getting the +2 armor are you going only 1 evo? Also do you have any newer replays of the mid game securing the 3rd?
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So what would you do against someone just making a fuck ton of roaches on 2 bases and keeping you contained? I don't see this working against any player with decent roach macro.
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On April 17 2012 05:14 Odal wrote:
So what would you do against someone just making a fuck ton of roaches on 2 bases and keeping you contained? I don't see this working against any player with decent roach macro.
I was wondering this myself.
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On April 17 2012 05:14 Odal wrote:
So what would you do against someone just making a fuck ton of roaches on 2 bases and keeping you contained? I don't see this working against any player with decent roach macro.
I imagine you never let him arrive at your natural until you get your spines up.
Before that you just kill the roaches in the middle of the map, at open ground.
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I play random and recently I've been sticking with zerg because I realised I'm losing a lot of games to cheesy timings and wanted to improve. This build seemed great as a random player but now I'm starting to have a harder time with holding off various all ins.
Master level zergs who have a macro style are easy for me to beat with this build, but I actually lose more to diamond players with this build because they tend to overproduce units early on or ling/bane all in.
How do you play against a player who hatches first and then makes a swell of lings. He will have more lings to hold your timing attack but you will have more drones. If he couters when his speed is finished you simply get overrun.
Also I have a very hard time holding 10 pools and anything shorter than that can be an auto lose if the overlords aren't perfect. (but i guess thats just zvz?)
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First 3 games of the day were ZvZ. I won all 3 using this (the opening at least), including beating an early bling all-in off 1 base and 15h early bling.
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On April 26 2012 06:43 usNEUX wrote:
First 3 games of the day were ZvZ. I won all 3 using this (the opening at least), including beating an early bling all-in off 1 base and 15h early bling.
Glad to hear others are having success with the opening too :D Keep it up!
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If I cant do damage with the first 2 attacks, I fall into a spot where I can get a 3rd due to not having enough spines and cant attack his roachforce and slowly lose the game from there. How should I transition out of a situation where he gets a big roachball and keeps denying my 3rd?
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I do the same, but I make 4 lings and 1 drone and put in the gas, with the idea I can get a baneling nest later if i need to play defensive against there lings or faster lair for faster mutas or even faster +1 etc
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And what happens if he roach drops / nydus you?
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Hi I posted a commentary I think something like few months ago saying I would definately test it.
So here I am now reporting:
Tang opener is quite a thing, helped me a lot killing zergs who rushed roaches(even mutas) and a ton of other that just didnt know what to do after 14/14. However if the other player went for super aggressive ling bane early push i often found myself in my base with a shitload of lings morphing while my opponent is making banes out of my base. Well it sure can be handled but the bane advantage opens for the possibility of a 1base all in speedlings + banes.
I may also point the case of a good defence setting from the opponent(defensive baneling, wall ,spine, blocking rampe with queens, earning time for him to get enough lings to push you back not letting you kill his expo), in that very case you find yourself behind in eco. How much? Statisticly from my replays depending on how much lings I did and how much units i forced. But 95% of the time you are behind at this stage letting you vulnerable for a big counter baneling allin.
Well the more I practised the build the more I made adaptations that would be nice to be cheked and discussed.
-My first overlord sees an expo same time/earlier than mine.
->Good spot get the drones from the gas and lets roll. Make an early 4th ovi, id say after the first2 sets to be able to pump full lings.
-No expo
->I keep 3 drones on the gas till 50 start my BN and let 2 drones on gas
-late expo
-> I do the same as no expo but I make 4 drones to have my gas saturated + B1 saturated because he is going for earlier aggression than me. To time well my attack I even make an earlier 4th ovi to go for a big counter to try to KILL his natural.
I usually drone meanwhile but if my all push gets obliterated by 2 banelings(worst case ever), i am almost done for.
-I did damage to the drones
->Nice but, because you are behind in drone count you may just be even depending on how much damage you did which relies a lot on how bad your opponnent reacts.Anyway how good you could be you cant walk a ramp bloked by two queens with10-20 lings while your opponnent is making a lot of lings himself. In a nutshell if your opponnent is sloppy you shall win with a very high ratio of rage-quiters(which makes this opening very tasty btw).
-I didn't do damage
-> Well I'm just platinium player so I can trust that my opponnent may suck at doing something, including droning and making overlords (as I do). If you defend well againt any baneling ling attack, for you both the +1+1speed Roach attack is the best option, so the number of roach and placement will determine who takes a third and who does not. Hi I posted a commentary I think something like few months ago saying I would definately test it.
So here I am now reporting:
Tang opener is quite a thing, helped me a lot killing zergs who rushed roaches(even mutas) and a ton of other that just didnt know what to do after 14/14. However if the other player went for super aggressive ling bane early push i often found myself in my base with a shitload of lings morphing while my opponent is making banes out of my base. Well it sure can be handled but the bane advantage opens for the possibility of a 1base all in speedlings + banes.
I may also point the case of a good defence setting from the opponent(defensive baneling, wall ,spine, blocking rampe with queens, earning time for him to get enough lings to push you back not letting you kill his expo), in that very case you find yourself behind in eco. How much? Statisticly from my replays depending on how much lings I did and how much units i forced. But 95% of the time you are behind at this stage letting you vulnerable for a big counter baneling allin.
Well the more I practised the build the more I made adaptations that would be nice to be cheked and discussed.
-My first overlord sees an expo same time/earlier than mine.
->Good spot get the drones from the gas and lets roll. Make an early 4th ovi, id say after the first2 sets to be able to pump full lings.
-No expo
->I keep 3 drones on the gas till 50 start my BN and let 2 drones on gas
-late expo
-> I do the same as no expo but I make 4 drones to have my gas saturated + B1 saturated because he is going for earlier aggression than me. To time well my attack I even make an earlier 4th ovi to go for a big counter to try to KILL his natural.
I usually drone meanwhile but if my all push gets obliterated by 2 banelings(worst case ever), i am almost done for.
-I did damage to the drones
->Nice but, because you are behind in drone count you may just be even depending on how much damage you did which relies a lot on how bad your opponnent reacts.Anyway how good you could be you cant walk a ramp bloked by two queens with10-20 lings while your opponnent is making a lot of lings himself. In a nutshell if your opponnent is sloppy you shall win with a very high ratio of rage-quiters(which makes this opening very tasty btw).
-I didn't do damage
-> Well I'm just platinium player so I can trust that my opponnent may suck at doing something, including droning and making overlords (as I do). If you defend well againt any baneling ling attack, for you both the +1+1speed Roach attack is the best option, so the number of roach and placement will determine who takes a third and who does not.
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EPT
